View Full Version : Do you think there are aliens?
Reenk Roink
05-16-2010, 17:13
Well?
Considering the vastness of space and our own grasp of timed movement thru it (phiolsophical), probably not.
gaelic cowboy
05-16-2010, 17:17
Considering the vastness of space and our own grasp of timed movement thru it (phiolsophical), probably not.
I having trouble understand what you mean by timed movement in regards to phiolsophical thought on aliens.
Kagemusha
05-16-2010, 17:18
It is more then very likely.Only one unique event creating life in universe sounds absurd. It is whole another story will there ever be any kind of contact with other life forms.
Reenk Roink
05-16-2010, 17:22
Considering the vastness of space and our own grasp of timed movement thru it (phiolsophical), probably not.
Well that is an argument against alien visitation (UFO and all that stuff) on Earth, nothing against the existence of aliens in itself.
gaelic cowboy
05-16-2010, 17:31
Hmm a big topic I will try an keep it short so. I assume your really saying are there advanced grey aliens or klingons zipping around the universe.
1 Universe is vast and has existed a long time therefore it seems reasonable to assume the chances are life could start elsewhere.
2 As long as enough life exists in enough places then surely some of it will become intelligent and develop advanced societies.
3 The more advanced they get the more energy they will consume requiring more resources and planetary exploration for same.
4 Even at very slow speeds the entire Milky Way can be explored in a cosmic timescale relatively quickly.
5 We aint seen any real evidence that they are exploring the galaxy so its possible we are alone in the Milky Way but not the universe.
Louis VI the Fat
05-16-2010, 17:55
There are no aliens.
You are not being watched.
We are not already among you.
:alien:
What I meant by philosophical is that space is so vast, out movment is like years to reach say mars for example, that presently, even if there is life in distant space so much time would elapse before we ever met another civilization, ours or theirs would no longer exist. In essence, based on the present, there is no alien life.
aimlesswanderer
05-16-2010, 18:00
As someone famous once sorta said "it'd be an awful waste of space if humans were the only intelligent life in the universe".
KukriKhan
05-16-2010, 18:04
Yes. They masquerade as "French" and "Texan", to explain away their differences from us. They apparently learned from their Neanderthal experience ('don't consume the host').
gaelic cowboy
05-16-2010, 18:09
What I meant by philosophical is that space is so vast, out movment is like years to reach say mars for example, that presently, even if there is life in distant space so much time would elapse before we ever met another civilization, ours or theirs would no longer exist. In essence, based on the present, there is no alien life.
Our present technical knowhow does not preclude a vastly older advanced society meeting us.
If you consider how fast light takes to reach us from say the other civilizations home world, light speed according to some being impossible, there is no chance of a meeting. You would have to resort to theroy to meet a vastly superior race to make this possible. Also, if another race is capable of reaching us in a reasonable amount of time, as of yet they have had no desire to. Unless you beleive in alien abductions and their supposed experiments.
gaelic cowboy
05-16-2010, 18:24
If you consider how fast light takes to reach us from say the other civilizations home world, light speed according to some being impossible, there is no chance of a meeting. You would have to resort to theroy to meet a vastly superior race to make this possible. Also, if another race is capable of reaching us in a reasonable amount of time, as of yet they have had no desire to. Unless you beleive in alien abductions and their supposed experiments.
People also said that the human body could not take the stress of a train journey at 100mph once.
We may never go faster than light but that does not mean we will not find a way beyond it the Quantum world seems to hold the most promise at the moment.
If the aliens were just using there version of Newtons Laws to move about at very slow speeds they will still fill the galaxy eventually.
I guess I'm just a pessimist and impatient. I just seems that to move though time and space in reaonalbe and understandable means would require some miracle device that would alter the laws of physics as we know them. I realize that outer space is full of physics we yet to understand, but the sheer enormity of space just seems to maintain my opinion that relations with any alien race, near or far, advanced or not is not possible at our given time. Sure technology has advanced quite quickly over the past 60 years but computers and infinity are two very different things.
KukriKhan
05-16-2010, 18:30
We are not ready to meet a "people" who have mastered travel at the speed of light (mentally, politically, scientifically, militarily, religiously)... and if they are anything like us, we should hide when/if they show up. Just ask Megas Methuselah about how "discovered" humans have fared at the hands of their discoverers.
One would hope that such an advanced society would not resort to such ancient notions of conquest and subjugation. That seems to be a human trait.
Ibn-Khaldun
05-16-2010, 18:38
I think advanced alien civilizations exist somewhere in the Universe.
And even if they watch us I doubt they want to reveal themselves to us currently.
Rhyfelwyr
05-16-2010, 19:02
Well the pyramids didn't build themselves...
gaelic cowboy
05-16-2010, 19:03
One would hope that such an advanced society would not resort to such ancient notions of conquest and subjugation. That seems to be a human trait.
One would hope so but it is not a thing I would bet the house on to quickly notions of peaceful aliens would be human trait too the chance is maybe 50/50 of death by contact.
In any closed eco-system the introduction of an exotic species will mean the extinction of the weaker one. This extinction is not necessarily caused by predation one may be better at using the resources at there disposal to survive hence leaving none for the weaker one.
Also, if another race is capable of reaching us in a reasonable amount of time, as of yet they have had no desire to.
That's thinking of an entire specie as a single organism, and humans at least cannot be explained in such a manner. Different individs have different interests. That they have the technology to travel light years away from their host planet doesn't mean that's something they do often; they would probably need a good reason since it could be rather expensive. Perhaps they just prefer to stay on the ground. Humans can travel to the moon; Mars too if we wanted to....but we don't do any of this at the moment.
It's also not a given that we have been that easy to detect, nor, that if any greatly technologically superior civilization exists out there, that it actually know about us - that they actually spend enough time on research on the topic to discover our presence and learn anything at all about our solar system.
One would hope that interaction between established civilizations would include some capacity at reason that lower species, like animals, lack. This coupled with our own understanding of the evolution of human nature and all its vices would lead me to believe, hopefully, an encounter not by chance would lead to some formal conversation that could benefit both civiliazations. Even if one is less developed than the other, for the more advanced culture made perhaps a huge effort to reach the lesser developed one. It would seem the more advanced civilization from across space would not invade another merely for slaves or resources (considering the benifits of occupied and unoccupied worlds and there being so many of them). Maintaining an empire on such an enormous scale just seems impossible and pointless. There are diseases to concern oneself with, but with the capacity to effortlessly span space one would think that disease wouldn't be too much of a problem either. But I digress, erratication of the lesser civilization would be swift anyway, again due to the before mentioned.
edit: apologizes, I posted before I read the one above.
Tellos Athenaios
05-16-2010, 19:24
Right now Humans can't travel to the moon, actually. There are numerous projects under way to restore that “capability” but right now we can't do much more than take the Sojuz shuttle between ISS and Earth.
While the prospects of “some kind of alien” are looking good (assuming that we ignore French and Texan ones who merely behave in an alien fashion) those of “intergalactic travel” or “alien encounters” are much less good. So far our best bet of weird quantum physics dimensions travel is that you essentially do unto a proton what would melt you out of existence were such a thing done unto your yourself. (Nevermind the outrageous amounts of energy that are required to get you colliding with something roughly your own size at roughly the same amount of eV per relevant particle in your body.)
Right now Humans can't travel to the moon, actually. There are numerous projects under way to restore that “capability” but right now we can't do much more than take the Sojuz shuttle between ISS and Earth.
Oh, c'mon; you know what I meant. All we need to do is to initiate a project, and we can. We have/know the technology required. The same thing could have happened to alien civilizations - they visited a few alien solar system, and thought they were awesome since they could; but eventually they got bored and didn't like the costs that came with it.
While the prospects of “some kind of alien” are looking good (assuming that we ignore French and Texan ones who merely behave in an alien fashion) those of “intergalactic travel” or “alien encounters” are much less good. So far our best bet of weird quantum physics dimensions travel is that you essentially do unto a proton what would melt you out of existence were such a thing done unto your yourself. (Nevermind the outrageous amounts of energy that are required to get you colliding with something roughly your own size at roughly the same amount of eV per relevant particle in your body.)
There are also the ideas of hibernation, multi-generation space ships etc. We don't have to rely on too exotic theories for interstellar space travel to be possible.
LittleGrizzly
05-16-2010, 22:02
Well the pyramids didn't build themselves...
lol, various youtube video's are coming flooding back to me....
Whilst I never put much stock in it I always liked the idea of Aliens interacting with us thousands and thousands of years ago, maybe even being involved in our evolution and teaching the first langauge ect.
I think there has to be Aliens out there somewhere in the vastness of space whether they have the means to get to us from where they are is another matter and whether they would want to, we wouldn't have much to offer a speicies that can traverse huge distances of space in little time, except maybe slave labour, resources would be easily accessible from other planets I imagine.
We can only Hope :2thumbsup:
The only thing that concerns me is that scientists have been looking for earth like planets orbiting nearby stars for some time now and all they have found are gas giants. No earth-like planets. I do realise that the technology is in its infancy and small planets like earth are incredibly hard to see (I am taking the vastnes of space into account), I guess it just depresses me. Limited technology and the lack of anything substantial within fathomable distances. Perhaps those Star Trekie things like worm holes and wrinkles in time and space are indeed plausable. I read somewhere (don't quote me) that the creator of Star Trek had some good ideas in theroy. Or was that Jules Verne? Again, don't quote me.
KukriKhan
05-17-2010, 00:38
the creator of Star Trek had some good ideas in theroy. Or was that Jules Verne?
Rodenberry Gene Rodenberry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Roddenberry). Verne = about 100 years earlier.
Sorry, I didn't phrase myself well. I refered to them both as individuals, not both the creators of Star Trek. Television pioneer and author respectivly. Though I am ashamed I forgot the name of Gene Rodenberry!
Yes. And I wouldn't worry about them annihilating human life, they'll just end up taking our jobs. Durka durb!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLni3wbndls
After they take our jobs they will read the book 'To Serve Humanity'!
Tellos Athenaios
05-17-2010, 01:57
Oh, c'mon; you know what I meant. All we need to do is to initiate a project, and we can. We have/know the technology required. The same thing could have happened to alien civilizations - they visited a few alien solar system, and thought they were awesome since they could; but eventually they got bored and didn't like the costs that came with it.
Yes. Which says exactly what about space travel by aliens? That it may not happen even if it is possible?
There are also the ideas of hibernation, multi-generation space ships etc. We don't have to rely on too exotic theories for interstellar space travel to be possible.
Which is no less exotic, I'm sure. :laugh4: Seriously: hibernation is not an option if you want to survive your travels: one needs to eat in order to hibernate; and in order to eat one needs to wake up. So at best you merely prolong the eat-sleep cycle, which incidentally makes hibernation only practical for small-ish aliens because you cannot tend any crops or similar whilst hibernating.
EDIT: There are various other interesting Health & Safety issues regarding to hibernation & space travel, too. Chief among which is that you no longer have the environmental sanity-checks of seasons, gravity, etc. etc. to trigger interrupts in your hibernation, and keep your organs healthy.
Not to mention even if you did travel to an alien world in hibernation at the speed of light, by the time you returned to earth or vice versa thousands of years will have passed. The founders of the project will be long dead and the space traveler will be out of place and lose his/her understanding of the civilization he/she left.
Centurion1
05-17-2010, 02:28
it is imo conceited to believe that aliens are watching us. why us of all people? its ridiculous.
and as to faster than light travel it is impossible but there are certain things and laws of physics that could be exploited as gaelic said, in quantum physics. think of the universe as a piece of paer. now using a specific type of machine or engine (dont ask me how but theoretically it is possible) you crumple up that piece of paper and do two things as well, 1. on a small scale so as not to disrupt the universe and 2. not make it permanent. then if you can manage that you need to develop some way to navigate the CReases in the crumpled up piece of paper. Otherwise you could get "lost". IF you can do that then go write your name down as the greatest mind in the history of mankind.
all speculation of course.
Megas Methuselah
05-17-2010, 02:47
We are not ready to meet a "people" who have mastered travel at the speed of light (mentally, politically, scientifically, militarily, religiously)... and if they are anything like us, we should hide when/if they show up. Just ask Megas Methuselah about how "discovered" humans have fared at the hands of their discoverers.
You're a very wise man, Kuk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmZg7tvGN9o
Well the pyramids didn't build themselves...
Of course not, the egyptians had Caustic Soda and Mineral Geosynthethis knowledge already, making building pyramids a heck lot easier, and not needing alien help.
Banquo's Ghost
05-17-2010, 07:29
Usually, we do not allow a thread started by a single word or phrase to live. The Collective has ruled on this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?109341-For-Reference-The-Backroom-Rules-Explained).
In this case, permission is granted to continue. This will help maintain the fantasy that you are actually free-thinking individuals.
Resistance, it should be noted, is futile.
Which is no less exotic, I'm sure. :laugh4: Seriously: hibernation is not an option if you want to survive your travels: one needs to eat in order to hibernate; and in order to eat one needs to wake up. So at best you merely prolong the eat-sleep cycle, which incidentally makes hibernation only practical for small-ish aliens because you cannot tend any crops or similar whilst hibernating.
EDIT: There are various other interesting Health & Safety issues regarding to hibernation & space travel, too. Chief among which is that you no longer have the environmental sanity-checks of seasons, gravity, etc. etc. to trigger interrupts in your hibernation, and keep your organs healthy.
It's less exotic because hibernation does exist, and so do multiple generations. You may need to eat, but I think that the idea here is that the amount of energy required to sustain the crew is lowered dramatically. Also, it is not so that all of the crew must be in hibernation mode at the same time. I believe that we could introduce gravity with a spinning space craft without too much trouble? Little friction in space to slow the spinning down.
The only thing that concerns me is that scientists have been looking for earth like planets orbiting nearby stars for some time now and all they have found are gas giants. No earth-like planets. I do realise that the technology is in its infancy and small planets like earth are incredibly hard to see (I am taking the vastnes of space into account), I guess it just depresses me. Limited technology and the lack of anything substantial within fathomable distances. Perhaps those Star Trekie things like worm holes and wrinkles in time and space are indeed plausable. I read somewhere (don't quote me) that the creator of Star Trek had some good ideas in theroy. Or was that Jules Verne? Again, don't quote me.
To my knowledge, the lack of smaller planets is at this time nothing at all to worry about. The smaller the planets are, the more precise must the instruments be; so essentially, the lack of instruments that are precise enough is the sole reason at this point in time.
Not to mention even if you did travel to an alien world in hibernation at the speed of light, by the time you returned to earth or vice versa thousands of years will have passed. The founders of the project will be long dead and the space traveler will be out of place and lose his/her understanding of the civilization he/she left.
The nearest alien solar system is just about 4 light years away, and within a radius of 50 l.y. you can find quite a few more, I believe. Though yes, things like that are problematic; and the reason why I wanted to introduce hibernation is because we didn't want to try to travel near the speed of light.
gaelic cowboy
05-17-2010, 13:55
Why use hibernation at all a species that was advanced enough might just bung genetic material in a pod and fire it off in a general direction some kind of robotic system could then basically grow test tube babies when a suitable place was found problem solved on the food equation.
Also we assume they want to keep contact with the mother Civilization when history here shows people populated new areas and never saw there old homes ever again even up to the early 20century to go to America was to leave forever.
On a lighter note I bet one day of earth we find a transmission from some alien people that turns out to be there version of "I'm a celebrity get me off this prison planet" or "Cyborg Nanny"
G. Septimus
05-17-2010, 14:00
for short: we're not alone
Colonization is the key. For when the earth dies humanity can live on on other earth-like planets that have been settled, technologies permitting. This could most likely exist even in the absense of aliens. Perhaps even make non earth-like planets earth-like, Mars for example, with wonderous contraptions that can produce vibrant cores, electormagnetic fields and atmospheres. Or perhaps the more tangible route of large domed cities. Wouldn't that be nice?
Tellos Athenaios
05-17-2010, 16:49
It's less exotic because hibernation does exist, and so do multiple generations. You may need to eat, but I think that the idea here is that the amount of energy required to sustain the crew is lowered dramatically. Also, it is not so that all of the crew must be in hibernation mode at the same time. I believe that we could introduce gravity with a spinning space craft without too much trouble? Little friction in space to slow the spinning down.
Hibernation exists, yes. It works by the virtue of some organisms living off other organisms that happen to be around without any active doing of the other ones. Animals rely on plants or other animals to `magically' collect the energy all in one place so they can eat all of it quickly before the next hibernation. That works in a complex ecosystem such as the earth because there *are* other energy sources for the plants and prey animals to begin with, recursively, that are not exhausted quickly and replenish. Such ecosystems would (a) have to be understood in their entirety; (b) be possible to `carry around with you' in order for such a thing to work on a spaceship. So far our experiments with sustainable ecosystems have been mostly miserable failures which suggests (a) is a bit more complex than it might at first seem. So far our spaceships do not generally feature much room for passengers, let alone entire ecosystems, suggesting (b) might be a little tricky too: it's after all not just because it is cheaper to build small spacecraft that we keep the dimensions of capsules and rockets down.
Spin all you want it does not cause (additional) gravity to spring into existence. That's not how gravity works.
gaelic cowboy
05-17-2010, 17:00
Spin all you want it does not cause (additional) gravity to spring into existence. That's not how gravity works.
It's not created but it does mimic whats already.
Cute Wolf
05-17-2010, 17:00
now, just look at this pic that I've took this with my phone camera personally... someone, explain this please... (actually I'm just taking it half a month ago...)
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/0c1b031547.jpg
NO, I'm not joking... I seriously see a kind of one strange triangle shaped plane, and one saucer like plane flying over my house here in Bandung...
KukriKhan
05-17-2010, 17:29
This will help maintain the fantasy that you are actually free-thinking individuals.
LOL. We appreciate the indulgence. :bow: I, for one, appreciate my backroom brothers' speculation on this matter. It brings me thoughts I haven't thunk for awhile.
KukriKhan
05-17-2010, 17:35
now, just look at this pic that I've took this with my phone camera personally... someone, explain this please... (actually I'm just taking it half a month ago...)
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/0c1b031547.jpg
NO, I'm not joking... I seriously see a kind of one strange triangle shaped plane, and one saucer like plane flying over my house here in Bandung...
Swamp Gas from Situ Ciburuy. :) That's how the experts around here explain unusual things in the sky: swamp-gas from the nearest body of water. Liars. :laugh:
Louis VI the Fat
05-17-2010, 17:52
Swamp Gas from Situ Ciburuy. :) That's how the experts around here explain unusual things in the sky: swamp-gas from the nearest body of water. Yes, swamp gas it is. Swamp gas. :yes: :sweatdrop:
Cute Wolf - you do not see aliens in that picture.
Everything in that picture can be rationally explained.
Scientists are not covering anything up. And if they are, which they're not, we will tell the truth when the world is ready for it.
:alien:
Cute Wolf
05-17-2010, 18:04
swamp gas? how can swamp gas floats and then turn arround in rather high speed?
BTW, recently, there was outbreak of local UFO sightings in West java, I was lucky to shot these pics...
Louis VI the Fat
05-17-2010, 18:10
swamp gas? how can swamp gas floats and then turn arround in rather high speed?Do not ask questions.
There are no aliens.
The Java sightings are caused by...erm...erm...the volcanic ash cloud from Iceland. Yeah.
:alien:
Hibernation exists, yes. It works by the virtue of some organisms living off other organisms that happen to be around without any active doing of the other ones. Animals rely on plants or other animals to `magically' collect the energy all in one place so they can eat all of it quickly before the next hibernation. That works in a complex ecosystem such as the earth because there *are* other energy sources for the plants and prey animals to begin with, recursively, that are not exhausted quickly and replenish. Such ecosystems would (a) have to be understood in their entirety; (b) be possible to `carry around with you' in order for such a thing to work on a spaceship. So far our experiments with sustainable ecosystems have been mostly miserable failures which suggests (a) is a bit more complex than it might at first seem. So far our spaceships do not generally feature much room for passengers, let alone entire ecosystems, suggesting (b) might be a little tricky too: it's after all not just because it is cheaper to build small spacecraft that we keep the dimensions of capsules and rockets down.
Not really sure what you are talking about here. It has been my impression that it is the hibernating animals themselves that are interesting. If we could manipulate humans in one way or the other so to make them biologically capable of entering a state of hibernation, then that's all we need. How to best feed the crew is a good question, but it is also another question entirely.
Spin all you want it does not cause (additional) gravity to spring into existence. That's not how gravity works.
I could have formulated myself more precisely, but it is naturally the acceleration caused by gravity that I am interested in achieving.
Vladimir
05-18-2010, 01:29
How many Mexican countries are there?
Sasaki Kojiro
05-18-2010, 01:41
Don't hibernating bears use up hundreds of pounds of fat over the winter?
It's quite possible that as civilizations advance, they lose interest in space travel. Being an astronaut isn't as big a craze today as it was in the recent past is it? Who says we won't be content taking pictures?
LittleGrizzly
05-18-2010, 01:57
I associate part of the loss of interest to do with there being a big technological step needed to get to the next stage, although you could maybe think of it as smaller steps, in most peoples minds you get into space, you land on the moon, then you land on another planet (or maybe a moon of another planet) landing on the moon was relatively easy compared with getting to another planet.
I would assume that once space travel starts to take off then technology will quickly advance to make it quicker and cheaper. Although the vastness of space is a huge obstacle to overcome, outside of wormholes or maybe some kind of suspended animation it would take generations to get anywhere, unless its possible to travel faster than the speed of light...
Man has and always will have an intrinsic desire to explore. The seas and wilderness were once vast and infinate until they were conqured. It just took the proper ships, navigation equipment, desire etc. to make this possible. I realize that the earth is much smaller that outer space, but I believe we already posses the desire and the rest will follow with time. A proper understanding of the enigma of physics and protection/propultion in conjunction with it is all that is left unfound. Taking pictures is a great start. Maps are meant to be interpreted and expanded upon.
With the incredible vastness of space, I think it's likely that aliens do exist. If there are advanced aliens, I think it would be amazing to meet them. I also think that anything is possible, including the possibility that aliens don't exist.
One would hope that such an advanced society would not resort to such ancient notions of conquest and subjugation. That seems to be a human trait.
Maybe an advanced alien society would be so advanced as to abhor war, but maybe by the same token they would be so advanced as to consider us insignificant. Removing a few humans to make way for themselves might be no more abhorrent to them than clearing a grassy hill to build a house is to humans.
Hibernation exists, yes. It works by the virtue of some organisms living off other organisms that happen to be around without any active doing of the other ones. Animals rely on plants or other animals to `magically' collect the energy all in one place so they can eat all of it quickly before the next hibernation. That works in a complex ecosystem such as the earth because there *are* other energy sources for the plants and prey animals to begin with, recursively, that are not exhausted quickly and replenish. Such ecosystems would (a) have to be understood in their entirety; (b) be possible to `carry around with you' in order for such a thing to work on a spaceship. So far our experiments with sustainable ecosystems have been mostly miserable failures which suggests (a) is a bit more complex than it might at first seem. So far our spaceships do not generally feature much room for passengers, let alone entire ecosystems, suggesting (b) might be a little tricky too: it's after all not just because it is cheaper to build small spacecraft that we keep the dimensions of capsules and rockets down.
Spin all you want it does not cause (additional) gravity to spring into existence. That's not how gravity works.
When discussing space travel, there is usually an assumption that this occurring in the future, when we have already figured such things out. Travelling around the globe would have been impossible to an ancient Egyptian, but only takes us a matter of days.
It's quite possible that as civilizations advance, they lose interest in space travel. Being an astronaut isn't as big a craze today as it was in the recent past is it? Who says we won't be content taking pictures?
Not necessarily, being a pilot no longer brings the rock star like adoration that it once did, but more people fly now than ever before.
Maybe an advanced alien society would be so advanced as to abhor war, but maybe by the same token they would be so advanced as to consider us insignificant. Removing a few humans to make way for themselves might be no more abhorrent to them than clearing a grassy hill to build a house is to humans.
The funny question is what "advanced" is supposed to mean. If you let it mean more than technology, then there is the eternal question of what can be considered "wrong" and what can be considered "right". Maybe some alien race is more like Hitler, thinking that war is an act of "cleansing", and furthermore not at all keen on what would have been their version of 'humanism'. Maybe they would be willing to use the science of genetics to actively contribute to their own evolution and create and improve traits that they find ideal.
Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I see no reason why the idea that "advanced = peaceful" should hold universally; though you do yourself point out how the act of being peaceful can be hugely relative. They do though perhaps not have to consider us insignificant/stupid; the fact that we are of another specie could mean that the idea of peace wouldn't count any longer - perhaps they could be wired that way.
Tellos Athenaios
05-19-2010, 00:21
When discussing space travel, there is usually an assumption that this occurring in the future, when we have already figured such things out. Travelling around the globe would have been impossible to an ancient Egyptian, but only takes us a matter of days.
But that is largely a fallacy: the ancient Egyptian would've needed a few relatively minor upgrades to his basic sailing kit, and some rather more significant ones to his navigation tools & skillset.
That is purely technological; and not even very much of a leap forward in the sense that ancient civilizations did maintain complex trade routes that span much of the Eurasian continent, Arabian peninsula, Indian subcontinent, and Africa, too. That is equivalent to more than half of the Earth's landmass.
Tell me, pretty please we are even remotely on the same technological discrepancy when it comes to space travel: the Egyptian has through trade and other links contact with much of planet Earth, essentially the same sub-portion the Egyptian of 2000 years later will have contact with. By comparison we can't even visit another planet. It gets worse: the Egyptian would've been generally familiar with the dangers of intercontinental travel. By comparison we don't even know how we would go about traveling significant distances in space in the first place. And worse yet: the Egyptian would be fit and capable to explore the Earth. We are not fit nor capable to survive space: we need complex contraptions. We are not fit nor capable to survive hibernation: to get our body to hibernate you need something like H2S which leaves you with the rather grim choice between your brain or your life.
Kadagar_AV
05-19-2010, 02:59
I have been thinking some about this topic today. And I do believe there either are aliens, or will be aliens by the time we can reach them.
1. Have a look at the Drake equation - The Drake equation states that the formula for intelligent life: is N = R* fp ne fl fi fc L
where:
N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible;
and
R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fℓ = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.[3]
The last factor, L, is for me the most interesting one. If a civilization gets advanced enough, then they would be able to live on forever, meaning L=X. X being death of universe.
Basically, we dont need many aliens life forms, we only need one, given this one learn to spread.
2. If there is one life form that makes it through, they are bound to be good. If they had not mastered their evil side, they would probably have killed themselves since long. I mean, look at us. We are a neutral as can be as a race. We can do sooo much good, and sooo much bad. However, we turn more and more towards good as a race. babysteps, sure, but we are still extremely young as a species.
Of course there are extremely many factors. But yeah, if we make it as a race, I think the odds are very good for eventually hooking up with some space-dudes. Most likely not in our lifetime though, unless they are already here, watching us... Louis?
Myrddraal
05-19-2010, 03:33
it is imo conceited to believe that aliens are watching us. why us of all people? its ridiculous.
Why would aliens watch us? Why would aliens have eyes? Eyes are a very earthy thing in my opinion.
Lets just remember that if life exists elsewhere, its evolutionary course will be completely independent of ours. The likelihood is that this other life, be it intelligent or not, would be so (dare I say) alien that we would have difficulty recognising it as intelligent. Why, perhaps in some resource rich planet movement was not necessary for survival, and these aliens have developed no natural way to move around. Naturally such aliens would have no interest in exploration, let alone in building spaceships... When we encounter these super intelligent aliens, we will probably mistake them for some kind of primeval sludge, scoop up a handful of individuals (perhaps literally) and make a new type of glue out of them.
But does other life exist at all? Most people seem content to say "The universe is really big/infinite therefore the chances are pretty high", but if the universe isn't infinite, then there's no justification to this argument at all. We have no idea about the number of stars in the universe, nor do we have any idea what the probability of those stars supporting life is (our current sample is way too limited). The probability of life could just as easily be negligible compared to the number of stars.
Myrddraal
05-19-2010, 03:38
Just to illustrate how ridiculous our very human interpretations of aliens are, here's that classic clip of the English housewife offering aliens tea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnxMd5e-lM0
Kadagar_AV
05-19-2010, 05:02
Why would aliens watch us? Why would aliens have eyes? Eyes are a very earthy thing in my opinion.
Lets just remember that if life exists elsewhere, its evolutionary course will be completely independent of ours. The likelihood is that this other life, be it intelligent or not, would be so (dare I say) alien that we would have difficulty recognising it as intelligent. Why, perhaps in some resource rich planet movement was not necessary for survival, and these aliens have developed no natural way to move around. Naturally such aliens would have no interest in exploration, let alone in building spaceships... When we encounter these super intelligent aliens, we will probably mistake them for some kind of primeval sludge, scoop up a handful of individuals (perhaps literally) and make a new type of glue out of them.
But does other life exist at all? Most people seem content to say "The universe is really big/infinite therefore the chances are pretty high", but if the universe isn't infinite, then there's no justification to this argument at all. We have no idea about the number of stars in the universe, nor do we have any idea what the probability of those stars supporting life is (our current sample is way too limited). The probability of life could just as easily be negligible compared to the number of stars.
Have you actually read up on the topic? I dont say this as a flame, just that some of your points are very much covered. Wiki the drake equation and take it from there :)
Reenk Roink
05-19-2010, 05:13
2. If there is one life form that makes it through, they are bound to be good. If they had not mastered their evil side, they would probably have killed themselves since long. I mean, look at us. We are a neutral as can be as a race. We can do sooo much good, and sooo much bad. However, we turn more and more towards good as a race. babysteps, sure, but we are still extremely young as a species.
The argument that technologically advanced alien lifeforms would be good because otherwise they'd have destroyed themselves seems very weak to me, as shown by what technologically advanced humans have done to not so technologically advanced humans in the past...
Kadagar_AV
05-19-2010, 05:21
The argument that technologically advanced alien lifeforms would be good because otherwise they'd have destroyed themselves seems very weak to me, as shown by what technologically advanced humans have done to not so technologically advanced humans in the past...
well, only a couple of hundred years ago, a drop in the ocean concerning universal time, we thought it natural to enslave others among our species and to kill off animals bordering to extinction.
Today, all over the world, slavery is frowned upon to say the least, and wild life preservations are all over the place, much funded by the average citizen. We are not born to be good, but generation by generation we are getting closer. Evolve that over some million years...
EDIT: I used these 2 examples as they mimic aliens stumbling upon us, or us stumbling upon aliens. If WE did, do you think we would send nukes, or try to make contact and learn from them?
it is imo conceited to believe that aliens are watching us. why us of all people? its ridiculous.
Well, there are always human scientists who research really obscure things that seem to have no possible use, maybe everyone back on planet zog is rolling their eyes at the weird scientist off at the other end of the galaxy researching these strange semi-intelligent creatures called humans.
EDIT
Or maybe we are being conceited, maybe they are coming to study our wildlife, or geographical formations, and we think they're here to see us.
Reenk Roink
05-19-2010, 05:47
well, only a couple of hundred years ago, a drop in the ocean concerning universal time, we thought it natural to enslave others among our species and to kill off animals bordering to extinction.
Today, all over the world, slavery is frowned upon to say the least, and wild life preservations are all over the place, much funded by the average citizen. We are not born to be good, but generation by generation we are getting closer. Evolve that over some million years...
EDIT: I used these 2 examples as they mimic aliens stumbling upon us, or us stumbling upon aliens. If WE did, do you think we would send nukes, or try to make contact and learn from them?
By the same token, we continue to spend a ton of money on military to ensure/aim for our dominance over the rest of the world. The last 100 years is by far the most violent in our history. Sure it has slowed down because of the superpowers have dwindled to two and later one, but the peace seems only kept as long as the status quo is kept.
There's almost no question in my mind that we'd exploit them BAD if we were stronger.
Shaka_Khan
05-19-2010, 09:04
I think outer space is so vast that there is a huge possibility that among the various aliens out there, there could be ones who look like us.
Myrddraal
05-19-2010, 10:48
My post was a bit cocky, but it's true nonetheless. I'll admit I haven't read of the Drake equation more than casually but... the equation is all well and good, but what is Fl? We can't even estimate its order of magnitude, so the Drake equation doesn't tell us very much about the likelihood of finding life out there without making some whopping assumptions.
EDIT:
Read the wiki, from the criticism section:
Criticism of the Drake equation follows mostly from the observation that several terms in the equation are largely or entirely based on conjecture. Thus the equation cannot be used to draw firm conclusions of any kind. As T.J. Nelson states:[19]
The Drake equation consists of a large number of probabilities multiplied together. Since each factor is guaranteed to be somewhere between 0 and 1, the result is also guaranteed to be a reasonable-looking number between 0 and 1. Unfortunately, all the probabilities are completely unknown, making the result worse than useless
Sounds about right to me.
Skullheadhq
05-19-2010, 13:53
there could be ones who look like us.
Let's hope for the aliens that that isn't true.
I voted yes with a sense of hope rather than 100% conviction that "they" are out there. I think the Universe would just be so much more interesting if it is populated with more intelligent life other than ourselves.
I do believe however, that any Aliens we meet will most likely be machines. Most likely the civilisation itself will be more of a machine one than a biological one. I also think that convergence between ourselves and our technology is going to happen. With regards to exploring space at least, it would solve alot of the issues plaguing purely human space travel.
rotorgun
05-20-2010, 05:18
I believe our own history and myths point to the possibility that the Earth was visited quite regularly by extraterrestrials. The Sumerian accounts of the Anunaki, some interesting Biblical verses, many of the earliest oral accounts of stone age primitive cultures offer some tantalizing hints of possible "close encounters" with off-worlders. With so many planets in the vastness of our universe, how arrogant for the human race to ponder any other possibility. It's like an ant in some isolated place on earth thinking his is the only colony of ants that exists.
As to why we haven't any direct proof of contacts in recent history, I can't say. Perhaps when our wisdom catches up with our technology to destroy, or surpasses it, then such beings will reveal themselves. I say "..seek out new civilizations, and boldly go....etc."
Kadagar_AV
05-20-2010, 05:32
I voted yes with a sense of hope rather than 100% conviction that "they" are out there. I think the Universe would just be so much more interesting if it is populated with more intelligent life other than ourselves.
I do believe however, that any Aliens we meet will most likely be machines. Most likely the civilisation itself will be more of a machine one than a biological one. I also think that convergence between ourselves and our technology is going to happen. With regards to exploring space at least, it would solve alot of the issues plaguing purely human space travel.
If we limit ourselves to science as is now, the possibilities of bio-engineering far surpasses that of mechanical engineering. But then, at that level, it would be hard to separate one from the other.
Banquo's Ghost
05-20-2010, 07:52
My post was a bit cocky, but it's true nonetheless. I'll admit I haven't read of the Drake equation more than casually but... the equation is all well and good, but what is Fl? We can't even estimate its order of magnitude, so the Drake equation doesn't tell us very much about the likelihood of finding life out there without making some whopping assumptions.
One of the biggest assumptions made in these debates (and integral to the Drake equation) is that the evolution of life is a linear process and naturally proceeds from simple to complex.
This is not borne out by observation.
The evolution of life on our own planet indicates that single-celled life is very likely to evolve on any planet with the right conditions (which in themselves are rare enough). However, the sequence of catastrophic events that happened in just the right sequence to produce the bursts to multi-cellular life and then further jump-start evolution towards a human intelligence are so extraordinary, and so mathematically unlikely to fall in the same sequence anywhere else, that there is a very strong argument that we are the only intelligent life in the universe (which is not remotely infinite).
Think of that responsibility. It's us and ooze.
Perhaps we should look in parallel galaxies or dimensions then...
Louis VI the Fat
05-21-2010, 01:11
Perhaps we should look in parallel galaxies or dimensions then...Or on that rotting fish in my fridge which I can't be bothered to throw away. A parallel universive with its own evolutionary processes it's become.
Eat that, Drake.
rotorgun
05-21-2010, 01:34
Al Gore is living proof of procreation between human and alien; he was born 9 months after the crash of the UFO at Roswell, New Mexico. I mean behold the man! What more proof do we need!
Myrddraal
05-21-2010, 03:28
The evolution of life on our own planet indicates that single-celled life is very likely to evolve on any planet with the right conditions (which in themselves are rare enough).
Does it even indicate that much? If I remember correctly, isn't it proven that all life on earth has a single common ancestor? So we have one cell appears on one planet. Statistically it's hardly a large enough sample to make any deductions about it happening elsewhere.
EDIT:
Having said that I also seem to remember reading something about bacteria on Mars, though I can't remember the details.
To think that we are the best and brightest in the universe based on an opinion that scientific and statistical cirumstance are so slight is somewhat self-inflating in my opinion. It borders on certain religious superiority thinking in my opinion. Chances can be repeated, epecially when coupled with the time-line of infinity. To think that the occurances on Earth are completely unique to equate to thinking that every star, compositon, effects, life/death were completly unique as well. Appearances might vary, perhaps even intelligence and how its used, but the willingness to use it and it's application (especially at the top of the food chain) are not and will yeild a rather predictable result.
Parallel universers/dimensions may be possible if one considers the universe to be flat. What might lie above and below it? Surely that increases the slight chance of intelligence recognizable to our own to exist some where. Couple that with other above and belows to other universes on the same plane as our own to infinity, the chances are quite, well, infinate.
I don't know much about string theroy (other that what I saw on the discovery channel), but it does open up the possibilities if you believe it and it's true.
LittleGrizzly
05-22-2010, 05:25
It boils down to the ability of inteligent life to evolve, Earth has the best conditions of any planet we know and even if we only consider the timeframe there has been life on earth intelligent life has not been around for much of it. Even once it takes hold and starts to develop one big enough aestroid, a world war or any number of things can wipe it out completely before it can escape any planetry disasters. Even ignoring all those problems civilisations can hold themselves back for all kinds of political, religious, economic or any other number or reasons. I consider this combined with the rareness of Earth like planets to mean intelligent life is rare, though due to the huge amount of planets that are out there and the potential infinite number there could be I think there must be intelligent life just it is spread very thinly and reaching one another would require very advanced technology and willingness to use it to find intelligent life (going with my spread thinly theory I think accidently finding is unlikely, although not impossible)
Scienter
05-23-2010, 05:39
I think there are other forms of life out there. But, I don't have my tin foil hat ready. If there are "advanced" alien races out there, they aren't interested in us. I don't think that people on earth see UFOs. If an alien race is advanced enough to travel to earth, they're smart enough to observe us without being detected. I'd be happy if we meet an alien bacteria on Mars.
I don't have my tin foil hat ready
This might be the best way to meet and get to know them. Old fashioned mind wave transfer.
I consider this combined with the rareness of Earth like planets to mean intelligent life is rare, though due to the huge amount of planets that are out there and the potential infinite number there could be I think there must be intelligent life just it is spread very thinly and reaching one another would require very advanced technology and willingness to use it to find intelligent life (going with my spread thinly theory I think accidently finding is unlikely, although not impossible)
Some suggest that Earth-like planets are common. At this point we guess much and know little.
Ja'chyra
05-23-2010, 11:58
Thinking that we are the only intelligent, and that is debatable, life in the universe is only exceeded in it's ignorance and arrogance by thinking that because we don't know how to do something that it can't be done i.e. faster than light travel.
Banquo's Ghost
05-23-2010, 13:03
Thinking that we are the only intelligent, and that is debatable, life in the universe is only exceeded in it's ignorance and arrogance by thinking that because we don't know how to do something that it can't be done i.e. faster than light travel.
That position in itself, is pretty unbending.
It is not ignorant or arrogant to explore a hypothesis and consider what it might mean. Given that it's the hypothesis for which we have the most direct evidence to date, it's even more worthy of consideration.
Ja'chyra
05-23-2010, 15:37
That position in itself, is pretty unbending.
It is not ignorant or arrogant to explore a hypothesis and consider what it might mean. Given that it's the hypothesis for which we have the most direct evidence to date, it's even more worthy of consideration.
Very true, but a lot of people simply believe what we think we know as the truth, there's quite a bit of that in this thread already. Consideration and debate is a good thing, absolutes, especially in negatives, aren't.
That being said, I was being a bit too harsh when I shouldn't have been so I apologise.
I think yes.
https://i.imgur.com/WOh7B.jpg
Now tell me chances are slim extraterrestrial life doesn't exist.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.