View Full Version : Economic benefit ya
Deserves own thread.
This is probably true for your country's as well. Pro-immigrationists often scream economic benefit, as I always said that is a leftist myth. But now we know how bad it really is. The influx of non-western immigrants costs 7.200.000.000 euro a year. Just the newcommers. A full immigration-stop for 3 years and national debt is byebye.
ITS THE IMMIGRANT'S FAULT! THEY ARE THE ONES RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WORLD CRISIS! DEPORT/EXTERMINATE THEM ALL!
Silly thought.
Painfully predictable leftist reflex we call it a reductio ad hitlerum , as I said just the newcommers.
3 years closed borders = national debt
They scream about the benefits? Whereabouts does this screaming occur?
Will the closed borders be reciprocal?
They scream about the benefits? Whereabouts does this screaming occur?
Will the closed borders be reciprocal?
Well look at Jolts post, a very typical reaction. Where's the screaming are you kidding me? You are already a facist if you aren't 100% sure that immigration is the greatest thing ever. Look at what happened to Fortuyn, but more importantly what led to it; a mindblowingly vicious hate campaign.
Economics Fail.
Where did you get your source for 7.200.000.000 Euros a year?
Well look at Jolts post, a very typical reaction. Where's the screaming are you kidding me? You are already a facist if you aren't 100% sure that immigration is the greatest thing ever. Look at what happened to Fortuyn, but more importantly what led to it; a mindblowingly vicious hate campaign.
Yeah whatever.
Will it be reciprocal? Should the Dutch be barred from leaving their country?
Rhyfelwyr
05-20-2010, 10:53
ITS THE IMMIGRANT'S FAULT! THEY ARE THE ONES RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WORLD CRISIS! DEPORT/EXTERMINATE THEM ALL!
Silly thought.
You sure walked into that one...
Economics Fail.
Where did you get your source for 7.200.000.000 Euros a year?
Here http://pvv.nl/images/stories/nyfer/nyfer-rapport-PVV.pdf
Feel free to do your own calculations and prove them wrong. Ask your local Dutchman for translation. Don't know when English sources roll in but watch google for 'Nyfer rapport'. And yes the PVV asked them (highly respected bureau) to seek it out as the responsible minister refused to answer pretty straightforward questions. 7.200.000.000 euro.
Also in the hardly rightwing (hi AdrianII!) Parool http://www.parool.nl/parool/nl/224/BINNENLAND/article/detail/295259/2010/05/19/Nyfer-immigratie-kost-7-2-miljard-per-jaar.dhtml
"Should the Dutch be barred from leaving their country?"
No, why you ask
PanzerJaeger
05-20-2010, 12:40
Not surprising.
Louis VI the Fat
05-20-2010, 12:43
Whoa, expensive. (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/05/50000_nonwestern_immigrants_wo.php)
'An immigrant from a non-western country aged between 25 and 35 jaar will cost the public sector between €40,000 and €50,000 during his or her life time'
And that's the least expensive age category. An older immigrant or a non-Western immigrant baby will have an even larger net cost to the taxpayer.
Should the Dutch be barred from leaving their country? EU immigrants have a net economical benefit. (At least within the EU)
It said that each would cost 30-40,000 Euros over their lifetime, not each year. It also probably ignores the fact that legal immigrants pay taxes.
PanzerJaeger
05-20-2010, 12:46
Thank you for an english article, Louis.
Immigrants from non-western countries are more likely to make use of subsidised housing, the health service and the social security system than other groups and contribute less to the treasury in terms of taxes and premiums, the Nyfer report says. They are also more likely to be involved in crime.
I'm eager to see how this will be spun as right wing propoganda.
Louis VI the Fat
05-20-2010, 12:49
It also probably ignores the fact that legal immigrants pay taxes.No, that seems extremely unlikely. Within developed European countries, entire social expenditure runs in the hundreds of thousands of euros per person. The average person pays this in taxes too.
The average non-western immigrant has a net difference between these of €40,000 and €50,000 - that is assuming the best case scenario of a young immigrant educated abroad.
It said that each would cost 30-40,000 Euros over their lifetime, not each year. It also probably ignores the fact that legal immigrants pay taxes.
We are talking about legal immigrants and tax revenues are included in the calculation, where did you read they aren't?
Painfully predictable leftist reflex we call it a reductio ad hitlerum , as I said just the newcommers.
3 years closed borders = national debt
It's pretty simple: Hitler also said that the Jews were behind the crisis and the debt that befell Germany and other assorted countries. You simply replaced Jews with immigrants. Anyways, plenty of good comments in the site Louis gave.
25 and 35 years will cost the public sector between €40,000 and €50,000 during his or her life time.
So, that's less than €1000 per year then, in perspective. Now, how much does a Native claim, when considering health issues, child benefit, student grants, childcare allowance, etc?
Sadly those figures don't add up if one takes into account taxes paid, consumer spending as well as other economic factors and immigrant input. Back to the drawing board I would suspect.
This is plain nonsense. I am a non-western immigrant (knowledge migrant). I pay more than 17000 of income taxes per year (plus 19% VAT on whatever I consume). I do not use subsidized housing, have not used unemployment benefit so far, and pay for an obligatory health insurance, which I rarely use. Find how much it costs the Dutch society to have me. BTW, did I mention that I am a PhD holder?
Among others. The point is that this is a study like a thousand others. Curiously enough, ordered by a party which is portrayed as xenophobic and discriminatory against non-Western people.
EU immigrants have a net economical benefit. (At least within the EU)
Ok - so the Dutch should be barred from leaving the EU? Or do the migration rules only apply for darkies and paupers?
Ok - so the Dutch should be barred from leaving the EU? Or do the migration rules only apply for darkies and paupers?
Only those. Obviously you and me are quite superior from an economical point of view to somebody from Morocco or Russia, in their views.
rory_20_uk
05-20-2010, 13:57
What type of immigrants are we talking about?
Economic migrants?
Illegal immigrants?
I imagine that the former offer a new profit to the country. The latter probably a net loss.
~:smoking:
It's pretty simple: Hitler also said that the Jews were behind the crisis and the debt that befell Germany and other assorted countries. You simply replaced Jews with immigrants. Anyways, plenty of good comments in the site Louis gave.
Among others. The point is that this is a study like a thousand others. Curiously enough, ordered by a party which is portrayed as xenophobic and discriminatory against non-Western people.
It's a lone wolf in the study department that is true, can't wait for it's critics having to argue about it, but that's not going to happen they simply dismiss it.
@Idaho, I am kinda curious of where you want to go, I suspect it's only ideoligy.
Louis VI the Fat
05-20-2010, 14:49
There are numerous reasons for immigration, besides economical ones, amongst others family unification and formation, or refugees. An economical analysis of the costs of imigration is not the sole argument.
One does not need to bend the facts to suit this. I, for one, am never willing to twist reality to suit my personal conviction. Things are the way they are.
Or do the migration rules only apply for darkies and paupers?Should a corporation equally employ everybody, or should it try to find the ones it needs by discriminating on education, skill, ability to blend into the corporation's culture?
If there are no social and economical considerations allowed for immigration, then why should we not have unlimited immigration? I say we take in a billion people into the EU this decade. This will have no detrimental effect whatsoever on Europe, according to leftist taboos, because immigration does not have negative effects.
Good comments:Nah, not really:
25 and 35 years will cost the public sector between €40,000 and €50,000 during his or her life time.
So, that's less than €1000 per year then, in perspective. Now, how much does a Native claim, when considering health issues, child benefit, student grants, childcare allowance, etc?
The numbers are not total expenditure, as the commentator suggests. They are net contribution. Total expenditure runs in the hundreds of thousands.
A native will have a net positive contribution of some €4000-€5000. This assuming an immigrant population of ten percent.
Sadly those figures don't add up if one takes into account taxes paid, consumer spending as well as other economic factors and immigrant input. Back to the drawing board I would suspect.
Sadly, the urge to work the numbers until they match ideology seems a halmark of multiculturalism.
Taxes paid and other economic factors have been taken into account.
This is plain nonsense. I am a non-western immigrant (knowledge migrant). I pay more than 17000 of income taxes per year (plus 19% VAT on whatever I consume). I do not use subsidized housing, have not used unemployment benefit so far, and pay for an obligatory health insurance, which I rarely use. Find how much it costs the Dutch society to have me. BTW, did I mention that I am a PhD holder?
Somebody please explain this 'knowledge' immigrant that the numbers are averages.
Next, he'll use some cold winter day in Tunis to proof the Sahara isn't warmer than the Netherlands.
He does show something else: a discriminating immigration policy could bring in PhD's, who are usually not an excessive burden on the taxpayer.
Luigi mia muca, knows exactly where the hurt should be
If there are no social and economical considerations allowed for immigration, then why should we not have unlimited immigration? I say we take in a billion people into the EU this decade. This will have no detrimental effect whatsoever on Europe, according to leftist taboos, because immigration does not have negative effects.
Immigration is just the movement of people from one place to another. It's been going on since humans have existed. It causes wars, riots, shortages, genocides, diseases and environmental degredation, amongst other things.
It is also fundamental to human existence as it brings trade, spread of ideas, mix of genetics, movement of skills, escape from war/poverty/persecution.
What is also fundamental to humanity is the endless moaning about it. Go back to any country, any time, and you will see the same tedious arguments repeated again and again and again. "They are stealing our jobs", "We don't have enough space", "They are all criminals", etc, etc ad nauseum ad infinitum.
Fortunately for me, those arguments didn't prevent my great-grandfather from escaping the pogroms of eastern europe at the end of the 19th century. And fortunately for my work colleague, they didn't stop her escaping Zimbabwe when she was threatened for political activity against Mugabe.
And fortunately for Fragony and you Louis, they don't stop you from travelling to any place you feel like travelling to in the world.
Vladimir
05-20-2010, 16:58
Luigi mia muca, knows exactly where the hurt should be
In the locker???
(sorry, shameless pun)
@Idaho
Let's be unsympetathic and look at people as if they were currency. There really is no benefit. Why let them come here.
Let's be unsympetathic and look at people as if they were currency. There really is no benefit. Why let them come here.
Let's look at people as if they were people. They should have the same rights as any other people on this planet. Even (shock horror) if they are darkies, or have a different religion, or don't have much money.
The Dutch and British spent 300 years going round the world creating colonies. We built our success and prosperity on it. It's a bit rich trying to pull up the drawbridge now - especially as we still want the right to go wherever we want.
The people from our previous colony's are doing fine, and they aren't all that happy with their new neighbours either
Megas Methuselah
05-21-2010, 00:03
Damn immigrants, I hate them all! I'm on your side here, Frag, I say all white people should go back home!
Louis VI the Fat
05-21-2010, 00:07
Damn immigrants, I hate them all! I'm on your side here, Frag, I say all white people should go back home!You may very well say that. Fragony, for his part, will have to appear before court if he writes that his continent should be for the natives.
Damn immigrants, I hate them all! I'm on your side here, Frag, I say all white people should go back home!
Completely normal reaction, no doubt a clever one in your circles. But we are so very used to it that the actual subject isn't discussed.
Strike For The South
05-21-2010, 07:03
I still havent got over the Germans they let in.
It's even worse when they let themselves in
Kadagar_AV
05-21-2010, 13:41
Fragony is of course all wrong about this.
So is Louis.
I have no advanced, up nosed , racist "statistics" to back me up, but I for one am sure that the dyslexic people we let in to Sweden some day will find the cure for cancer. And on their way there, they will benefit the Swedish economy greatly as a bonus.
To further the point, I am quite proud of the inventive side of these welcomed newcomers. The children around where I used to live had this annoying tendency to play soccer and assorted ballgames in the community park, but our new neighbors from the great nation of Somalia showed the children the error of their ways. Instead, they cultivated a rich blooming of the wildlife, by using their own bodily functions as a natural fertilizer, can you imagine?! I for one welcome such inventive thinking, we are getting a tad to traditional here in the good ol' west.
And then we have the rapes. I for one refuse to see any connection between rape statistics and immigration statistics. Just because Norway released a report showing that pretty much all assault rapes were caused by immigrants, doesn't mean that the situation would be the same in Sweden. As we all know, Sweden and Norway are culturally VERY different from each other.
Same goes of course for so many other types of crime.
Take Södertälje as an example. This quiet little suburb has accepted more Iraqis than The United States Of America has altogether. A proud day for Sweden indeed. So proud that all of the borne Swedes in Södertälje moved out, as they do not feel they belong in the heroic radiance of these much welcomed new additions to our population.
To make a long story short, I do not understand how anyone could be against uncontrolled immigration.
LONG LIVE THE MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY!!!!
As I told one of my students who (allegedly) got some gang "surprise" sex by African muslims because she was alone and had a short skirt: "you have no idea how many would be envious of the multicultural experience you just had".
She was so glad she was jumping of happiness, unfortunately she must have forgotten that she was on a rooftop.
Insallah!
I for one want more immigrants, and more lax conditions for the ones who are already here.
Megas Methuselah
05-23-2010, 20:11
Man, what's wrong with you people? Maybe Canada sucked all the better people outta the third world countries, and left all the criminals for you.
I'm cool with that. You reap what you sow, euroland.
Sasaki Kojiro
05-23-2010, 20:20
I don't get the "xenophobic!" reaction to these statistics. It's common sense, and it's the reason why most countries have limitations on the number of people that can immigrate. It functions like a charity. Having immigrants is a good thing, but what good does it do the immigrants if the country they've come to goes deep into debt and has to cancel all of those social programs?
Megas Methuselah
05-23-2010, 20:36
So those are just crappy places to live, then? Hahahaha.
Louis VI the Fat
05-23-2010, 20:40
Man, what's wrong with you people? Maybe Canada sucked all the better people outta the third world countries, and left all the criminals for you.
I'm cool with that. You reap what you sow, euroland.1 - As a matter of fact, that is more or less precisely what happened, yes.
Canada has indeed done that. Canada, as a traditional immigration country, has had no qualms in having a strict immigration policy that takes the interest of Canada into account. Canadian immigration policy focuses on attracting skilled workers with substantial language skills and education.
Unlike in Europe. Where immigration has belonged to the realm of the taboo. It is taboo to have a policy based on the requirements of the host country. It is taboo to dicuss financial effects of immigration. It is taboo to discuss social effects of immigration.
It is taboo to try and develop a benefitial immigrantion policy. Basically, there is mass immigration because it would be fascist not to have it.
2 - Yes, guilt over past mistakes has left Europe morally powerless. See 'taboo' under 1 above.
3 - But we can't be all that bad when all those non-Europeans who whine about evil Europe risk everything just to live among Europeans. Apparantly, life isn't all that great in those areas of the world unaffected as of yet by the modern world Europe gifted the world. But keep crying.
gaelic cowboy
05-23-2010, 20:50
Man, what's wrong with you people? Maybe Canada sucked all the better people outta the third world countries, and left all the criminals for you.
I'm cool with that. You reap what you sow, euroland.
I suppose it has nothing to do with the fact Canada does not share a border with a vastly poorer country then eh? unlike Western Europe which has border with several poorer regions making access easier.
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