Archer unit sizes

[pikeman]

Is it safe to assume that archers with 120 men are crappy, while ones with 160 men are at least somewhat decent? If so, to be specific, how good are the numidian archers? (I'm inching towards Carthage as Roma atm, starting from west to east so I don't get sandwiched by the yellow greeks.)

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

More men is an advantage. But a larger unit is likely to have larger upkeep costs. Small units of archers make great garrison units that cost little to maintain.

[athanaric]

Numidian Archers are quite good. They are inferior to Persian or Nomadic archers in terms of, well, archery, but are still better than the various European archer types, except for Baltic Frontiersmen (and Bosphorans and Cretans of course).
Decent basic armour (3), range (170 m) and overall stats, especially an armour-piercing club for melee, means they are very versatile troops and the second best choice for Romani, after Cretans.

Celtic and Germanic archers have 120 men/unit each and are crappy archers, but fairly decent in melee. Greek Toxotai are crappy all round, though still stronger than Accensi.

[Macilrille]

/Me points again to the AAR Section with the advice on archery thread. If you cannot find it, Ludens have kindly stickied my list of threads with tactical advice- including links- have a look there.

[Tristuskhan]

Archers:
Saka Foot Archers 209m, 25 arrows, 5 attack <---AFAIK they have the longest range in the game.
Toxotai Kretikoi 201.6m, 35 arrows, 6 attack
Subeshi Fistaegfataexsdzhytae 198m, 35 arrows, 5 attack
Mardian Foot Archers 198m, 35 arrows, 5 attack
Levantine Saggitarius Auxilia 198m 35 arrows, 5 attack
Sarmatian Foot Archers 198m, 35 arrows, 5 attack
Skuda Fistaeg Fat Aexsdzhytae 198m, 35 arrows, 5 attack
Hallatamti Thanvare (Elamite Archers) 198m, 35 arrows, 5 attack
Giusim Aravim Tsfonim 196m, 25 arrow, 5 attack
Syrian Archers 192.5m, 25 arrows, 4 attack
Thanvare Payahdag, 192.5m, 25 arrows, 4 attack
Medininkas 187m, 25 arrows, 4 attack
Thureopheromenoi Toxotai 180m, 35 arrows. 5 attack <---still the best in my opinion
Caucasian Archers, 180m, 28 arrows, 6 attack
Komatai Agrianai 179.5m, 25 arrows, 5 attack
Ethiopian Archers 179.2m, 25 arrows, 5 attack
Eransahr Arshtbara 175m, 25 arrows, 4 attack
Numidian Archers 170m, 20 arrows, 5 attack
Indian Longbowmen 170m, 16 arrows, 5 attack
Sabean Archers 170m, 25 arrows, 4 attack
Komatai Toxotai 160.2m, 15 arrows, 4 attack
Lankininkas 160m, 15 arrows, 4 attack
Nuraghi 157.3m, 15 arrows, 3 attack
Skutjanz 143m, 15 arrows, 4 attack
Sotaroas 143m, 15 arrows, 3 attack
Toxotai 143m, 15 arrows, 3 attack

Slingers:
Rhodian Slingers 195m, 30 bullets, 2 attack
Shuban Fradakshana, 185m, 30 bullets, 2 attack
Sphendonetai 185m, 30 bullets, 2 attack
Balearic Slinger 175m, 20 bullets, 3 attack
African Slingers 162.8m, 25 bullets, 1 attack
Arab Slingers 162.8m, 25 bullets, 1 attack
Iaosatae, 162m, 35 bullets, 1 attack
Komatai Sphendonitai 148m, 25 bullets, 1 attack
Iberian Slingers 148m, 25 bullets, 1 attack
Accensi 133.2m, 25 bullets, 1 attack


I dare copying it in this thread. It's all about archery things: melee values you must find yourself, as well as unit numbers.

[Apázlinemjó]

Thureopheromenoi Toxotai 180m, 35 arrows. 5 attack <---still the best in my opinion

Agreed, when they run out of ammo, you get an excellent unit of medium infantry.

[Cambyses]

And perhaps more to the point, in Africa you will be fighting lots of skirmishers with no armour. Easily recruitable competent archers are a real godsend for dealing with all these. Especially the numidian skirmisher cavalry that are too damn fast for anything else to kill off. Of course the carthies bring plenty of heavy stuff at first that archers wont be much use against, but they always have enough light support that you will have more than enough enemies to shoot at.

[Imperator Invictus]

Is it safe to assume that archers with 120 men are crappy, while ones with 160 men are at least somewhat decent? If so, to be specific, how good are the numidian archers? (I'm inching towards Carthage as Roma atm, starting from west to east so I don't get sandwiched by the yellow greeks.)

Yellow greeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
please read :book: :book: :book: :book: :book: :book:
there is no such thing... !!!yellow greeks!!! :laugh4:
I remember your previous aberations : "greekish barbarians", "dark green celts", "pontic barbarians" :laugh4: :laugh4:
...they are funny but please stop and read some history or read any book you want, and only then you may post something on this forum...:shame:

[Cute Wolf]

at least you could simply refers the ptolies better as Yellow fever, or sister :daisy:..... :clown:

[Duguntz]

Mostly sissies...

[artavazd]

it seems to me that javeline units take down the enemy more effectivly than archers. Anybody know why that is?

[Duguntz]

well... look at the size of an arrow, then look at the size of a javelin! an arrow would more often only wound an ennemy than kill him, while a javelin, well, you don't survive long with a javelin stuck in your chest... :-)

[artavazd]

well... look at the size of an arrow, then look at the size of a javelin! an arrow would more often only wound an ennemy than kill him, while a javelin, well, you don't survive long with a javelin stuck in your chest... :-)

I was talking about EB. For some reason it seems that javelines do more damage than arrows in the game.

[Duguntz]

well, the answer you're looking for lies probably in the stats of the units : damage vs defence. Still, the effect is the same than in reality : Javelin did cause more death than arrows (if we do not consider the clouds of arrows shooted by the millions strong chinese armies of the same period :D)...

[vartan]

I was talking about EB. For some reason it seems that javelines do more damage than arrows in the game.
I've noticed that javelins have a technical difference in that they have a "thrown missile" weapon attribute, whereas arrows do not have any such attribute. Perhaps it means something in-game that we just don't know. I presume it does because in vanilla, pilum did more damage than arrow.

[Cute Wolf]

AFAIK thrown missile didn't suffer from the doubled shield value (another missile had), if you put arrow on thrown properties, they'll got the same level of destruction...

[vartan]

AFAIK thrown missile didn't suffer from the doubled shield value (another missile had), if you put arrow on thrown properties, they'll got the same level of destruction...
Thankfully no sane modder has done that AFAIK. Arrows aren't thrown. They're shot.

[artavazd]

AFAIK thrown missile didn't suffer from the doubled shield value (another missile had), if you put arrow on thrown properties, they'll got the same level of destruction...

So thats why javelines seem to do more damage. So say a unit has a shield value of 3 and is shot at from the front with an arrow the shield value of that unit goes to a 6? while having a javeline thrown at it it stays a 3?

[vartan]

So thats why javelines seem to do more damage. So say a unit has a shield value of 3 and is shot at from the front with an arrow the shield value of that unit goes to a 6? while having a javeline thrown at it it stays a 3?
We will never be able to know those technical intricacies and details unless someone from CA who worked on the game specifically states what happens in such scenarios. I personally don't know of any such posts, and unless you can find one or somebody can link you to one, your answers will always be speculative and at best, educated, but never definitive. Right?

[Cute Wolf]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

[jirisys]

So thats why javelines seem to do more damage. So say a unit has a shield value of 3 and is shot at from the front with an arrow the shield value of that unit goes to a 6? while having a javeline thrown at it it stays a 3?

Simple, javelins DO make more damage that an arrow

~Jirisys (in EB and M&B:clown:)

[Intranetusa]

Archers are pretty useless for the most part - they do nothing to phalanxes or any unit with a decent shield.

The only way you will get any kills is if the AI is dumb enough to let their cavalry sit around doing nothing, or they turn their backs on you.

Slingers are far more useful due to the AP bonus against armor.

My levy slingers get more kills than my damn "elite" Cretan archers most of the time.

[athanaric]

Archers are pretty useless for the most part - they do nothing to phalanxes or any unit with a decent shield.

The only way you will get any kills is if the AI is dumb enough to let their cavalry sit around doing nothing, or they turn their backs on you.

Slingers are far more useful due to the AP bonus against armor.

My levy slingers get more kills than my damn "elite" Cretan archers most of the time.
Then maybe you're fighting the wrong enemies. By the sound of it, you're only campaigning against Romans, Greeks, Carthaginians, and cataphracts. Because everyone else takes more casualties from arrows than from bullets or rocks. If you want to defeat Barbarians, Sabaeans or Nomads - or slingers, by the way - you'd better bring some archers.
Not to mention the much higher tactical versatility of archers compared to slingers.

[Intranetusa]

Then maybe you're fighting the wrong enemies. By the sound of it, you're only campaigning against Romans, Greeks, Carthaginians, and cataphracts. Because everyone else takes more casualties from arrows than from bullets or rocks. If you want to defeat Barbarians, Sabaeans or Nomads - or slingers, by the way - you'd better bring some archers.
Not to mention the much higher tactical versatility of archers compared to slingers.

That's probably true. I'm mostly fighting against enemies with decent armor + shield, so my archers are useless. If I was fighting against unarmored 'barbarized' factions, they were definately be more useful.

[Cute Wolf]

That's probably true. I'm mostly fighting against enemies with decent armor + shield, so my archers are useless. If I was fighting against unarmored 'barbarized' factions, they were definately be more useful.

but remember, sometimes, flaming arrows from toxotai could made big difference in routing time... two or three volleys could made your enemy run in panic (when fired at the right moment)

[Intranetusa]

but remember, sometimes, flaming arrows from toxotai could made big difference in routing time... two or three volleys could made your enemy run in panic (when fired at the right moment)

Well if I want them to rout faster, I'd probably just have another unit of cavalry or infantry - they'd be much more useful overall rather than just having an archer unit for the sole purpose of flaming arrows when their morale is down.

[Demosthenes]

Actually no. There are only so many units you can effectively attack a unit with, by using flaming arrows, you can use more. With infantry, espacially infantry in the toxotai-price-range, you can't do anything near as effective.

[antisocialmunky]

Technically all missiles do exactly 1 damage... Some are just more likely to do that damage.


Well if I want them to rout faster, I'd probably just have another unit of cavalry or infantry - they'd be much more useful overall rather than just having an archer unit for the sole purpose of flaming arrows when their morale is down.

You have not seen online catastrophic super routs due to the extra morale penalties from a single unit lobbing arrows with an army designed to maximize morale damage.

[vartan]

but remember, sometimes, flaming arrows from toxotai could made big difference in routing time... two or three volleys could made your enemy run in panic (when fired at the right moment)
That's right. What amazes me is that you can still use flaming arrows after moving the archer unit. It simply doesn't make sense. It would have been so easy to program the archers to lose the flaming arrow ability in a battle after moving them once.

You have not seen online catastrophic super routs due to the extra morale penalties from a single unit lobbing arrows with an army designed to maximize morale damage.
You never cease to amaze when it comes to your technical audacity in battle. This beast of a general, known as Antisocialmunky, brings with him to the field a weapon far superior to the strongest steel. This munky brings with him the knowledge of the inner workings of morale modifiers. If your whole army routs and you've only lost 20 percent of your men, don't be surprised. There are very valid reasons for this...:book:

Let me know when you've found your technical match.

EDIT: Anti do you have a replay (or can make one) showing that morale modifying super-rout? ZCB is curious. I know what you're talking about but it would be nice to have a replay for footage for video purposes.

[paleologos]

You have not seen online catastrophic super routs due to the extra morale penalties from a single unit lobbing arrows with an army designed to maximize morale damage.

Neither have I. How about a link please?

Thanks.