Request to CA

[Antalis::]

You know, there are so many great mods out there, but everytime you want to play a new mod you have to install MTW again, if you don´t want to delete the mod you played the time before.

Everytime, you have to use 2GB of Diskspace.
So ten mods 20 GB...

Please bring a patch out for the easy use of mods: like in Half-life: There it is so easy to use a mod with only one original-game installation.

It would be wonderful, if you can make such an easy mod-using-system http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Antalis::]

Everyone who also likes to have an easy-mod-using system, please write a reply, and write your opinion in this case http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif , so that CA sees that this is the wish of many, many users.
Or do you like to backup, and install everytime?
If you like this, then write why http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif .

[Swoosh So]

You know what id like from ca? A nice back rub http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (Swoosh So @ Dez. 19 2002,02:54)]You know what id like from ca? A nice back rub http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Funny http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif , but what do you really think about this case, which I´m talking about?

[Swoosh So]

I think its a really good idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Ive already suffered the same problems u have.



SwoOOOoOOoOOoooOOOOOOsh

Shame this idea wont make it to the expansion unless they already thought of it, Maybe gil will put it on their good ideas black book that he talks about http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (Swoosh So @ Dez. 19 2002,03:30)]Maybe gil will put it on their good ideas black book that he talks about http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Yeah, I also hope so http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[barocca]

it would be a good idea,
but then if all the modders used patchwise to make their mod, and make an uninstaller...

king davids camelot mod has an install and uninstall that is painless and easy,
but i don't have the time to write one for everybody,
his patrician mod will also have an install and uninstall package, once he sends me the updates he is currently working on,

as i said i don't have the time to do this for everybody, thats why patchwise is available from the tools section...

[Swoosh So]

Yep take note magyar for your campaign tool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kraellin]

Quote[/b] ]You know, there are so many great mods out there, but everytime you want to play a new mod you have to install MTW again, if you don´t want to delete the mod you played the time before

sorry, but this isnt true. i dont know of any mod that requires a complete re-install of mtw.

K.

[Swoosh So]

Krae some of the unit mods would be very difficult to take out except with an uninstaller, Not stat changes but graphics changes shields etc Just too many files, Iliked the sound of the peeps mod who made the feudal bows but wouldent install it due to it being too fiddly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (Swoosh So @ Dez. 19 2002,07:50)]Krae some of the unit mods would be very difficult to take out except with an uninstaller, Not stat changes but graphics changes shields etc Just too many files, Iliked the sound of the peeps mod who made the feudal bows but wouldent install it due to it being too fiddly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Yes too many files to change.
It would be easier to use mods, if there would be an easy mod using system and you can have many mods installed at the same time.
Its a shame that you can only have one mod installed at the same time.

[Kraellin]

swooshers,

yes, i understand.

the problem with most installers is that you still end up having a set of files that get installed or uninstalled, or, you download another mod and then have to alter your original installer to include that one, or, if it has its own installer and set of files with it, the files that the 2nd one is installing has one file in it that you dont want altered. after a while you've got 20 installers and it just gets confusing.

i prefer not to have any installers and just copy the files by hand, as i always do. i keep all my mods in their own directory, so i can always look in there to see what's being used. i can then also just copy the whole lot at once and swap them in and out as needed and wanted, or even mix and match more easily. thus, i rarely even download a mod that forces you to use a self installer. you never know what's being swapped in and out by those .exe installers, so i just refuse to even download one that does that.

i also run two copies of the game on my machine. one is a 'clean' copy that i never alter so i can just load it up when i want all the default settings for an mp game or just to play the game as it was intended and the other is the one where i edit my own files and swap other folk's files in and out.

in fact, it would even make sense to have a third copy of the game installed, one as a clean copy, one for editing and testing my own stuff, and the third to run other folk's mods on. hehe, ok, so now i'm actually sort of ending up with antalis' 20 gig of space being used by the game ;)

K.

[Swoosh So]

Quote Krae : swooshers,

yes, i understand.

the problem with most installers is that you still end up having a set of files that get installed or uninstalled, or, you download another mod and then have to alter your original installer to include that one, or, if it has its own installer and set of files with it, the files that the 2nd one is installing has one file in it that you dont want altered. after a while you've got 20 installers and it just gets confusing.

Umm lol u just blew my mind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (Kraellin @ Dez. 19 2002,08:43)]swooshers,

yes, i understand.

the problem with most installers is that you still end up having a set of files that get installed or uninstalled, or, you download another mod and then have to alter your original installer to include that one, or, if it has its own installer and set of files with it, the files that the 2nd one is installing has one file in it that you dont want altered. after a while you've got 20 installers and it just gets confusing.

i prefer not to have any installers and just copy the files by hand, as i always do. i keep all my mods in their own directory, so i can always look in there to see what's being used. i can then also just copy the whole lot at once and swap them in and out as needed and wanted, or even mix and match more easily. thus, i rarely even download a mod that forces you to use a self installer. you never know what's being swapped in and out by those .exe installers, so i just refuse to even download one that does that.

i also run two copies of the game on my machine. one is a 'clean' copy that i never alter so i can just load it up when i want all the default settings for an mp game or just to play the game as it was intended and the other is the one where i edit my own files and swap other folk's files in and out.
K.


Thats true.

But it would be easier, if it is like in Half-life.
Why to have so many possibilities to mod in MTW and not the possibility to install it properly and easy?
I don´t know if you know Operation Flashpoint very well, but there is a folder with the name "ADDONS" and there its really easy to install new addons.

[Lion King]

i just made a backup folder with all file from MTW except sound textures, executable files and credits (most mods dont change these. Mine will someday). This backup folder is much lighter than 2GB, and still has the same function (although you have to waste some time copying the files back if you want to play MP after installing a mod.Btw thanks for the link barocca, i was really needing an installer program.
why dont we modders use a MOD launcher program? i would program one but i am simply too lazy, its quite simple to do though. It works like that:
-the user downloads the mod launcher with the mod he wants
-he runs the .exe.
-the .exe changes the names of the fles which will be replaced and puts the MOD files in those "free" slots.
-the user has fun
-when he quits the game, the .exe will either detect that the game is closed or there will be a button to do it in the program and it will delete the mod files and rename the original files back to what they were before.

its simple and effective, and any half-arsed programmer can do it, even if a bit rudimentary...
maybe googling for it will get us somthing already made from someone else...

[King David]

Another Good Idea is to have two copies of the Total War folder on your disk or disks. The original untouched copy for multyplay and all that and your moding - Testing- Tinkering copy. The game will run off both executables.

[Antalis::]

The problem is this: You can only have one single mod installed and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,
and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again, and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,
and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again, and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,
and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again, and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,
and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again,and when you want to test another you have to delete the old and then when you want to play the old again, you have to install it again... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif

[barocca]

Kraellin, the problem with refusing to use the installers is the sheer size of King Davids mods if i did not compile them with installers
- Camelot becomes a mammoth without it...45MB download...
as opposed to the installer variant
- installer and restorer 2.4MB combined download...

[Lion King]

45MBs worth of stuff on camelot?? gonna download it now
so is it really true installers have better compression than .zip files?

[barocca]

not as a general rule, no,

but the installer i use compares any file to be overwritten with the file it will be overwritten by, then creates an append table, with only the changes made recorded.
this means all it is is a list of append tables and a few files that are unique.

ALSO
the installer i use allows a full backup of changed files to be created, thus you can use the restore download, or manually restore from the backups.

[PanthaPower]

Well, maybe CA could implement something like this.


* CA makes a new Folder in the MTW directory which is called MOD

* When someone has a mod, ALL files go straight into \MTW\MOD\%mod-name%

* CA modifies MTW so that if files are placed in the \MTW\MOD\%Mod-name% directory, they will be the primary source for loading the game

* When you start the game, CA should program a new item which is called MODS which works the same as "Early, High, Late" menu (that is when you add an extra text file in the startpos directory it will appear there automatically).


Well, not sure if this is easy to make in a patch for CA but I think it might be the easiest way to go.

[Kraellin]

bar,

my problem with the self installers isnt the download size, though i do realize this is a problem for others and even for the .org which needs to be a bit careful about file size storage; 45 megs, for me, is only about a minute more for me, compared to 24 megs in download size, depending on the bandwidth of the download site. but again, i do recognize this is a consideration for others.

my problem is that i've got no idea WHAT'S being installed. maybe i want to play his early file, but not his projectilestats file....stuff like that. a blind install just doesnt allow you to tailor what is being installed, and sometimes not even where, though most are getting better about that part.

i'm not sure what the perfect solution is. maybe something like what pantha is saying or something like what the early, high, and late.txt files do, so that you can actually pick which file you want once in the game, but that would take some help from CA.

for now, it's easiest for me if i download stuff to a given main mod folder with sub-folders. each sub-folder IS that mod's folder. i put the zip there, unpack the zip there and can keep track of that mod's files there and swap them in and out with a copy of the original files which i keep in yet another folder. this, at least, maintains some semblence of organization for me on my computer. i suppose i could do the same thing with the self-installer mods, just put them in yet another folder and when i want to play that one, just go ahead and double click the .exe. it just bugs me a bit, especially when like with the last one i looked at, the installer had no readme that was a separate file i could read beforehand telling me what was going to be changed and so on. i couldnt look at the files in the list like with a zip and see what files were there. for all i know it's going to modify my main .exe, my windows files, my fat tables, and give me a bad hair day ;) ok, maybe that's a bit paranoid, but nonetheless, i like to know what's being put on my computer.

i look at self-installers as, you're too stupid to swap this file out manually, so i'll do it for you. the problem with that is, sometimes the thing automatically assumes my computer is set up like the source computer, or, it overwrites something i dont want overwritten, or removes something i dont want removed and so on and so forth. in other words, it takes all the comtrol i have over my own computer and puts it all in the installer. i dont like that and i've had trouble with those in the past. so, i tend to stay away from them if possible. even commercial programs do this at times. a good readme that is separate from the main installer would help, like if you had the installer and a separate readme and zipped them up together so that one could read the readme first, that would help alleviate my concerns on this.

K.

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (PanthaPower @ Dez. 20 2002,03:29)]Well, maybe CA could implement something like this.


* CA makes a new Folder in the MTW directory which is called MOD

* When someone has a mod, ALL files go straight into \MTW\MOD\%mod-name%

* CA modifies MTW so that if files are placed in the \MTW\MOD\%Mod-name% directory, they will be the primary source for loading the game
Yeah, such a system would be great
Very good idear

If someone of CA (Gil?) sees this thread, please make such a system http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Wellington]

Hi Guys,

Interesting thread, interesting ideas. As some of you may be aware I'm currently writing a utility for this group which does/will provide a basic Installer/Uninstaller feature for both New Units and Mods.

Such an (Un)Installer is relatively straightforward for New Units. For Mods it's a bit more complicated.

With Mods you have to consider (as others have pointed out) that any 2 different mods may NOT be compatable for installtion in the same MTW installation. Whilst the requirements for adding or removing New Units from an MTW installation are Mods are straightforward (all the required files for such New Units are 'standard' and 'fixed&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif a Mod introduces many variables. Basically, a Mod may comprise many files that are 'unknown' to a software based installer. Therefore such a software based installer has to "trust" that the Mod is correct in the file replacements it provides. With such an unknown quantity of files for any Mod - no software can accurately manage different Mods that may well be incompatable (ie: several mods all provide different versions/copies of some files).

Therefore any software based process(ie: utility) cannot accuratly manage the installation of multiple mods that may each have different versions of key MTW files.

The utility I'm currently busy with, MUMU (MTW Unit Modding Utility), will provide a basic Mod installer/uninstaller but the principle of installing "only one mod, containing variable components/files, at a time" wqill still be paramount ...

... unless, of course, CA heeds the opinions expressed in this thread

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (Wellington @ Dez. 20 2002,16:03)]As some of you may be aware I'm currently writing a utility for this group which does/will provide a basic Installer/Uninstaller feature for both New Units and Mods.

Such an (Un)Installer is relatively straightforward for New Units. For Mods it's a bit more complicated.
Sounds very interesting
Hope that you´ll get it working fine.

Thank you all for posting in this thread and I also hope to see several new postings here, so that CA can´t ignore this case http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif .

It would be good, if this thread could be a sticky http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] (Antalis:: @ Dec. 19 2002,09:27)]But it would be easier, if it is like in Half-life.
Why to have so many possibilities to mod in MTW and not the possibility to install it properly and easy?
I don´t know if you know Operation Flashpoint very well, but there is a folder with the name "ADDONS" and there its really easy to install new addons.
I have modded both these games and I understand
what you mean.However I don't think we can compare
these typs of games.It's all very nice having the addon
folder in OFP but it's not that easy to write the
script and a hell of a lot of programming.
Plus the graphics are very different
so it was good for the recipent but hard on me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Dez. 21 2002,18:54)]
Zitat[/b] (Antalis:: @ Dec. 19 2002,09:27)]But it would be easier, if it is like in Half-life.
Why to have so many possibilities to mod in MTW and not the possibility to install it properly and easy?
I don´t know if you know Operation Flashpoint very well, but there is a folder with the name "ADDONS" and there its really easy to install new addons.
I have modded both these games and I understand
what you mean.However I don't think we can compare
these typs of games.It's all very nice having the addon
folder in OFP but it's not that easy to write the
script and a hell of a lot of programming.
Plus the graphics are very different
so it was good for the recipent but hard on me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Yes OFP is not absolutly userfriendly in making new mods.
There is no "MOD"-folder, but its easy to implementate new addons, like new units.
I made a castle for it and its very easy to install it and you also can use new units with this building, you don´t have to use the original units with the castle.
Such an "ADDON" folder and also a "MOD"-folder would be great in MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[WesW]

My mod is one of those that Swoosh So mentioned with shields added to existing units. I realized that I had not accounted for this with the simple "uninstall" method that I use, but I simply deleted the text from one of the shield files, and the game accepted it without a problem, and the shield disappeared.
For my mod, I use Winzip with the "remember file pathways" feature turned on, and all you have to do to install the mod is unzip it into the Medieval- Total War folder.
Well, I also include a zip within the mod zip with all the original files that I altered, placed into the appropriate file structure so that you can unzip it into the Medieval- Total War folder, and it will overwrite all the mod files with the originals.
For the new shields, you can simply include a file with no text inside, to overwrite the mod file.

If all the mod-makers would use this simple system, players could switch between mods quickly and easily using a common program, Winzip.

[GilJaysmith]

The easiest mod-friendly system is to put mods as directories under a MODS folder. The frontend lists all these directories and lets you choose one (or possibly more, specifying an order) to activate. Whenever the game needs a file it then searches the active mod subdirectories in order before looking in the usual place.

Which is basically what Pantha said.

However, this won't be going into MTW, and I have no idea how the modding system in TW3 works, but doubtless they have one.

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (GilJaysmith @ Dez. 29 2002,12:32)]However, this won't be going into MTW, and I have no idea how the modding system in TW3 works, but doubtless they have one.
Thank you Gil for your answer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

A pitty that there will be no modsystem for MTW, but its very good that there will be a mod-system in Rome-TW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .


Maybe someone with some progamming expieriance could make a mod using programm, if it is possible for MTW?