Do the Slavs had Celtic origin?

[Finn MacCumhail]

Greetings EB fellows!

I have noticed some similarity between the names of Neurije Region (modern Belorussia) and Nervii (Celtic tribe from Nervaea Belgae region). So, it appeared that one and the same tribe might inhabit these two regions. Moreover Nervii might be one of the Slavic ancestors. Also Slavic priest social class had lots of similar features with the Druids. Both Celts and Slavs had a three-headed god cult.
The Volkii (sp? вольки) tribe branch migrated to the East, and they could be the Slavic ancestors too.

BTW is there any link between Veneti and Venedi? Yes, they lived in different places but in the case Celts migrated is it possible?

What is more Scytho-Celts absolutely ruined my understanding of history.

I was kinda shocked with this information, so I wished to share this stuff.

And what do you read or hear about it?

[anubis88]

I can reply only about the Veneti... I can't really reply, i can only tell you that Veneti (venedi) is an extremly common name for a tribe in antiquity, since they could be found in at least 5 separate places...

I do believe though that some of your comparisons are a bit far fetched... (not sure though)

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

These lingual and cultural similarities are, to me, simple results of their common Indo-European origins. Even the word "topor" meaning axe in several Slavic languages sounds very similar to the Iranian "tabar".

[Mediolanicus]

Indeed, I think you're looking at a very far common ancestry, instead of a Celtic origin of the Slavs.

[Belisarius II]

These lingual and cultural similarities are, to me, simple results of their common Indo-European origins. Even the word "topor" meaning axe, in several Slavic languages sounds very similar to the Iranian "tabar".

It is thought by some that the Slavs originated in the Iran region, so that would be quite believeable.

[gamegeek2]

It is thought by some that the Slavs originated in the Iran region, so that would be quite believeable.

The most accepted theory of Indo-European expansion, the Kurgan hypothesis, shows no such thing - rather, the Indo-European tongues radiated out from the area north of the Caucasus mountains.

And Celts didn't dwell in the Balto-Slavic areas, barring the Celtic influence and Cotini overlap with the Przeworsk culture, which is, in all probability, not the area of Slavic origin anyways. The Slavs do not have a Celtic origin - rather, they have a common origin with the Balts, according to linguistic evidence.

[Duguntz]

but lingustic evidence do not prove in any cases a common ancestry, but only an area of influence. Just like art or architecture : the greeks took the column from the egyptians. that dosen't mean they had a common ancestry! Living hunderds of years in the (sorry for the word) neighborhood resulted in influence from both culture on one another, comprising lingustic influence.

[Imperator Invictus]

Do the Slavs had Celtic origin?

:laugh4::laugh4:
yes, they are from London or US
:laugh4:

[Belisarius II]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg/220px-Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg.png

Not the best source,but it does show surprising results.

This is of the R1a distribution, which shows that there is a similarity between Slavs and Iranians.

[artavazd]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg/220px-Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg.png

Not the best source,but it does show surprising results.

This is of the R1a distribution, which shows that there is a similarity between Slavs and Iranians.


Celtic DNA is R2b. This can be attested by its high numbers in western Europe. As we move eastward, R2b becomes seen in lower and lower frequencies. Once we get into the Slavic nations it dropps dramaticaly, and we start to see the R1a in high numbers. An interesting fact is that R2b has two branches. While one branch is high in western Europe attested to Celtic ancestry, the other branch is seen in the east in Anatolia(Hittite) and Armenia. About 25-30% of the Armenian population has R2b which is significanly higher than the surrounding populations.

[vartan]

These lingual and cultural similarities are, to me, simple results of their common Indo-European origins. Even the word "topor" meaning axe in several Slavic languages sounds very similar to the Iranian "tabar".
Ah...tabar indeed. I was thinking, does anyone who speaks non-English tongue recognize the word կացին (transliterated: ka-tsin, unaspirated k)? It means axe in Armenian - Հայերեն (transliterated: ha-ye-ren). If no IE-derived language speaker recognizes it I can almost safely assume its Caucasian origin. I know some 400 or so words that are Urartian (Caucasian, native) linguistic remnants.

Celtic DNA is R2b. This can be attested by its high numbers in western Europe. As we move eastward, R2b becomes seen in lower and lower frequencies. Once we get into the Slavic nations it dropps dramaticaly, and we start to see the R1a in high numbers. An interesting fact is that R2b has two branches. While one branch is high in western Europe attested to Celtic ancestry, the other branch is seen in the east in Anatolia(Hittite) and Armenia. About 25-30% of the Armenian population has R2b which is significanly higher than the surrounding populations.
Mix and mingle, mingle mingle...:laugh4: You know how it works Arto.

[Apázlinemjó]

You bad Indo-European speakers.

[podoh]

Both Celts and Slavs had a three-headed god cult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trifunctional_hypothesis

Did you mean this with "three-headed god cultus", because that's also indo-european and not stricty slavic or celtic.
If this is not what you meant, just ignore...

[artavazd]

Ah...tabar indeed. I was thinking, does anyone who speaks non-English tongue recognize the word կացին (transliterated: ka-tsin, unaspirated k)? It means axe in Armenian - Հայերեն (transliterated: ha-ye-ren). If no IE-derived language speaker recognizes it I can almost safely assume its Caucasian origin. I know some 400 or so words that are Urartian (Caucasian, native) linguistic remnants.

Mix and mingle, mingle mingle...:laugh4: You know how it works Arto.

The word katsin is cleary indo-european. The root word is ktrel (to cut) cleary related to the english word cut, spanish word cortar.

Also Vardan there are new studies made which shows that the language of the Urartu era is an archaic form of the Vannic dialect of Armenian. We have to keep in mind that Urartu is a mispronounciation of Ararat, and that it was called Biani by the natives. The word Biani is the same as Van. It is all connected with Armenian and Armenians.

The issue with the Rb1 is not neccesarly an issue of mix and mingle.. Reason I say this is because the origins of that gene is attested to both Western Europe and the area of Historic Armenia.

[Finn MacCumhail]

The Slavs haven’t dwelt on their modern territory constantly. They have migrated there. They came from Danube. The evidence of it we can read in the Russian Primary Chronicle. Vasily Klyuchevsky also shared this theory.

Danube

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Danubemap.png

And here is a map where Celts lived.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.png


The extent of Lusatian culture (marked in green), that existed 1300BC-500BC
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/KulturaLuzycka_1.png

The academician Sedov supposed this land to be Celtic. While academician Rybakov said that on this land dwelt haf of all Proto-Slavs, some Proto-Germans, and other.

Przeworsk culture (green)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Przeworsk2.PNG
Modern thinking leans towards assigning the culture to an association of tribes of proto-Slavic, Germanic and Celtic origins. (Wiki)



Lubor Niederle and also Mr. Shafarik thought that Neurói (Neuri) are Celts.

Neurói

“People (Neurói (Neuri)) are apparently wizards. Scythians and living among them Hellens, approve, that every Neur annually for some days turns into the wolf, and then again accepts human shape” Herodotus

This text gives us opportunity to follow the Slavic werewolf through the history.


According to the Celtoscythian theory, Nervii (Belgae tribe) are the Descendants of Neuri, about whom wrought Herodotus.

It is thought, that Neuri being forced by movements coused by Makedon and Persian invasion, went to the west.
That was Plutarch who first mentioned about Celtoscytians (Gaius Marius chapter)

[vartan]

The word katsin is cleary indo-european. The root word is ktrel (to cut) cleary related to the english word cut, spanish word cortar.

Also Vardan there are new studies made which shows that the language of the Urartu era is an archaic form of the Vannic dialect of Armenian. We have to keep in mind that Urartu is a mispronounciation of Ararat, and that it was called Biani by the natives. The word Biani is the same as Van. It is all connected with Armenian and Armenians.

The issue with the Rb1 is not neccesarly an issue of mix and mingle.. Reason I say this is because the origins of that gene is attested to both Western Europe and the area of Historic Armenia.
I know jan. I kid. And that's correct, there have been many things misconstrued and simply unknown when it comes to Armenian history. Almost anything I've read has the mistake of calling the Hai origin a Phrygian tribe from beyond the Hellespont, and calling Urartians separate entities and Caucasian. We do have Caucasian words from assimilation of certain Caucasian tribes, but the Hai were also native, if you will, considering the long time period they've been there, longer than what the said texts think is true. In fact, AFAIK this hasn't even been published yet. If anybody is on the path to getting it on paper and in print, it's the linguist/historian Varouj, an old professor. He lives a few buildings over. :sweatdrop: Last I talked to him he was reading some...I think it was Mekhagir (Մեղագիր sp?) Hurrian texts that read very similarly to Hayeren.

[artavazd]

I know jan. I kid. And that's correct, there have been many things misconstrued and simply unknown when it comes to Armenian history. Almost anything I've read has the mistake of calling the Hai origin a Phrygian tribe from beyond the Hellespont, and calling Urartians separate entities and Caucasian. We do have Caucasian words from assimilation of certain Caucasian tribes, but the Hai were also native, if you will, considering the long time period they've been there, longer than what the said texts think is true. In fact, AFAIK this hasn't even been published yet. If anybody is on the path to getting it on paper and in print, it's the linguist/historian Varouj, an old professor. He lives a few buildings over. :sweatdrop: Last I talked to him he was reading some...I think it was Mekhagir (Մեղագիր sp?) Hurrian texts that read very similarly to Hayeren.

Well the whole Phrygian theory is just based on Heredotus opinion. He observed that the Phrygians and Armenians dressed alike. his entire theory came from the similarities in dress style. That would be the same as if today I see a Chinaman wearing jeans, and a Frenchma wearing jeans and make the assumtions that they are related. (Phrygians and Armenians are related the same way Armenians and other Indo-European speaking people are)

There have been new studies made. SInce the break up of the soviet union there has been openess and new archeological studies have been published. Ill just name a few. Russell D. Gray & Quentin D. Atkinson, Colin Renfrew. Search this archeologists see how through their studies they show a very ancient Indo-european presence in the area of historic Armenia (even suggesting it was the homeland of IE peoples)

[gamegeek2]

The Slavs haven’t dwelt on their modern territory constantly. They have migrated there. They came from Danube. The evidence of it we can read in the Russian Primary Chronicle. Vasily Klyuchevsky also shared this theory.

What evidence we do have shows that the Slavs originated between 200 and 500 AD, in the area directly north of the Dniester. The Przeworsk culture isn't slavic, either.

[Finn MacCumhail]

Well, the Slavs dwelt in many regions. Even on the territory of modern Germany (for example Sorbian languages). According to one theory, word Berlin came from slavic (more exactly Polabian) word berl-/birl which meant bog.

Przeworsk culture

Early twentieth century scholars often engaged in heated debates as to the bearers of the Przeworsk culture. A substantial effort has been expended in the past to characterize the latter as an early Slavic-speaking community, whilst German scholars attributed it to Vandals and Burgundians. However, it is impossible to believe that a single people could lie behind such a territorially wide and culturally varied zone. Therefore, modern thinking leans towards assigning the culture to an association of tribes of proto-Slavic, Germanic and Celtic origins.

- unrelaible wikipedia

[athanaric]

It is important that we distinguish between actual "Slavs", modern peoples like the Czech, and the early cultures of the region around the EB timeframe.
The modern Western Slavs may very well be primarily descendants of the local tribes, who were later assimilated into Slavic peoples (along with Germans, Sarmatians, Magyars and whatnot). However, that is of little relevance to the identity of the earliest Slavs from the Dniester region.

[Cheetaiean]

Ah...tabar indeed. I was thinking, does anyone who speaks non-English tongue recognize the word կացին (transliterated: ka-tsin, unaspirated k)? It means axe in Armenian - Հայերեն (transliterated: ha-ye-ren). If no IE-derived language speaker recognizes it I can almost safely assume its Caucasian origin. I know some 400 or so words that are Urartian (Caucasian, native) linguistic remnants.

Mix and mingle, mingle mingle...:laugh4: You know how it works Arto.


In Polish there is a word: kat which means a person who does death sentences, which in older times was done by cutting the head of, usually with an axe. Hence the derivation of this word from cutting, showing the relation.

[NoHelmet]

I think that there is much more Iranian and Germanic influence than Celtic. Areas where some mingling occured are probably Boihaemum and the Balkans, but who knows how much.
Also, it is extremely hard to determine the exact point at which Slavic ethnos was established. What is pretty clear, is that by the time of the ninth century, Slavic as a language was still remarkably homogenous. Slavic dialects from around Thessaloniki (Solun as we still call it), recorded and learnt by Cyril and Methodius were fully intelligible with those in Moravia and further north-east.
Personaly, i think that Slavic language was a binding for a confederation of tribes united to become what would be called a slavic nation.
Also, there is an interesting thing about Croats and Serbs, a theory that makes a decent amount of sense, a theory that indicates an Iranian tribal name origin absorbed into slavic majority, similar to the case od Bulgarians, but much earlier, as Iranian tribes made the eastern border of the Slavs, and there was certainly an interchange of blood and culture to some degree.

[gamegeek2]

Necromancy!

Given the fact that the Balts covered such a vast expanse of land (including almost all of modern-day Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, and Latvia, as well as large portions of East Russia) one wonders where exactly the Slavs fit in. There's this gem mentioned by NoHelmet:


What is pretty clear, is that by the time of the ninth century, Slavic as a language was still remarkably homogenous. Slavic dialects from around Thessaloniki (Solun as we still call it), recorded and learnt by Cyril and Methodius were fully intelligible with those in Moravia and further north-east.

Especially considering that Slavic palatization evidently occurred after they borrowed words from neighboring Germanic tribes (i.e. migrating Goths), the Slavic languages as a group must have lacked this, and other prominent distinguishing characteristics, until after this period.

Hence up until this point the Slavic tongues would have peen part of a continuum of languages of varying degrees of intelligibility. This continuum would include the languages spoken by the Bastarnae, Lugiones, Aestii, Vistula Venedi, and the East Baltic languages spoken by the inhabitants of parts of what are now Belarus and Western Russia. The 'Slavs' if we may call them that were the component in this chain dwelling just to the north and east of the Bastarnae, in the area around the upper Southern Bug and the middle Dnieper rivers.

[anubis88]

Ah, gg2, Finn, and Anubis arguing in a thread before EBNOM... Seems like ages ago :clown: !

Interesting thread tough

[vartan]

I can already see Ludens coming in to bring some order to such necromancy. Ah...

[gamegeek2]

I can already see Ludens coming in to bring some order to such necromancy. Ah...

*Moros

[vartan]

*Moros

*still in grief*