Should you be able to retire at 60 years old? French labor unions think so...

[Ice]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704269204575270270096941854.html?mod=WSJ_World_LEFTSecondNews

French Protest Pension Shift

By DAVID GAUTHIER-VILLARS

PARIS—French labor unions used a nationwide protest on Thursday to voice opposition to government plans to increase the minimum retirement age from 60.

Tens of thousands of workers joined rallies, including teachers, air-traffic controllers and museum wardens as well as some private-sector workers, from Marseille in the south to Lille in the north.

"We're seeing the highest mobilization since the start of the year," said François Chérèque, head of the umbrella union CFDT, in Paris. "The government must revisit its plan."

Government spokesman Luc Chatel said the turnout at the demonstrations was "low."

President Nicolas Sarkozy says French people can't afford to retire earlier than most of their European Union neighbors, who have cut pension benefits or raised future retirement ages in accordance with rising life expectancies.

The annual deficit of France's state-run pension funds could exceed €100 billion ($122 billion) by 2050, from an estimated €10 billion this year, according to a council advising the government.

Targeted by Mr. Sarkozy as a national priority, the proposed pension overhaul is regarded as a test of France's ability to preserve a generous social-welfare system without piling up debt.

Although the government hasn't yet released details of a plan, it has made clear it wants people to work longer and retire later to help finance the pension system's growing shortfall. A pension bill could be drafted in July and presented in September to Parliament, where Mr. Sarkozy's ruling UMP party has a majority.

"The main response to demographic imbalances should be demographic," Labor Minister Eric Woerth said last week.

Economists say raising the retirement age and the number of years workers contribute to the state-run system would only halve its shortfall. A rise in payroll taxes is inevitable, they say, unless pensioners agree to receive significantly lower pensions. The government has ruled out increasing payroll taxes, saying it would hurt the competitiveness of French companies. However, it has said a "symbolic" tax on wealthy households and some capital gains was being considered.

France reduced the minimum retirement age to 60 from 65 in 1983 under Socialist President François Mitterrand. The move is seen by unions as a major social victory, ranking with five-week holidays, a minimum wage and the 35-hour workweek. Most union leaders, including Mr. Chérèque, say the 60-year mark is "non-negotiable."

On Tuesday, at a rally of his UMP party near Paris, Mr. Sarkozy said France would have "fewer problems" had Mr. Mitterrand "abstained" from lowering the minimum retirement age.

Mr. Sarkozy's attack on Mr. Mitterrand's legacy has stirred a debate within France's opposition Socialist Party. Party leader Martine Aubry has said that, if Mr. Sarkozy raises the retirement age, she would bring it back down again if elected president in 2012.

Another French Socialist leader has been more nuanced. Asked by TV channel France 2 whether the time had come to raise the retirement age, International Monetary Fund Managing Director Dominique Strauss-Kahn said: "If we succeed in living until 100 years, we can't go on retiring at 60."

Man I thought social security was bad in this country. Leaving out the absurdity of retiring at 60 in this day and age, even with the upped retirement age, the pension system will still face a drastic shortfall which means that both cuts are needed and additional taxes are needed on already heavily taxed population. I'm not quite sure what exactly these people expect the government to do.

[Beskar]

You can retire whenever you like, even at 21. It is just a matter of having the money or not.

State pension on the otherhand have their limits, but for private pensions, go and have fun.

I personally don't believe in any limits, and in a sense, scrapping the forced-retirement age. There are those which are still happy to keep working and are discriminated against because of their age. However, for a state pension, there should be a limit.

[miotas]

I'm confused. What exactly is a "minimum retirement age"?

[Ice]

I'm confused. What exactly is a "minimum retirement age"?

The lowest possible age you can retire, and start recieving benefits. If the French system is similar to our, the longer you wait, the larger pension you get.

[miotas]

So a minimum pension age? Minimum retirement age is a bit of misnomer. I think ours is 65, but there are plans to increase it in coming years.

[rory_20_uk]

French Civil Servants get 70% of their final salary for life. From 60.

Oddly, it used to be 65 in the 1980's. Then, seeing as how life expectancy was getting longer it was reduced by 5 years. A nice time bomb for later governments.

As a famous slum clearance activist said over 100 years ago when state pensions in the UK were first muted, state pensions destroy communities and remove the need for individual responsibility and thrift.

There should be no retirement age. Retire whenever you feel like it. The earlier you do it, the more money you'll need.

There should be no state pension (or an extremely limited one). Currently unless you have loads of money, saving for one's own pension first diminishes the state one. So you need to save a lot to make a difference to one's income.

There is no universal right to 20 years of relaxation. Some can afford it, some longer, some a lot shorter. That's reality. If you don't like it blame God.

~:smoking:

[Louis VI the Fat]

The point of life is not to spend as much of it working as possible. The point is creative, human, emotional, aestethic, intellectual, hedonistic pursuit.

Economic growth and progress need to be geared towards that.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world is inhabited by worker ants who think people ought to work fourteen hours a day, six days a week, 50 weeks a year, from age five until death. This, its proponents triumphantly claim, means more production and thus is superior. They are right it allows for more economic production and bitterly, bitterly wrong in mistaking it for higher standard of living.

Unfortunately, capitalism is a winner takes all system. If your neighbour declines seeing his chiuldren grow up so he can slave his life away working, he wins all. Such is the nature of the rat race.

By it, the pinnacle of evolution, the creative ape, reduces itself to the level of the worker ant. :shame:

[Vladimir]

The point of life is not to spend as much of it working as possible. The point is creative, human, emotional, aestethic, hedonistic expression.

Economic growth and progress need to be geared towards that.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world is inhabited by worker ants who think people ought to work fourteen hours a day, six days a week, 50 weeks a year, from age five until death. This, its proponents triumphantly claim, means more production and thus is superior. They are right it allows for more economic production and bitterly, bitterly wrong in mistaking it for higher standard of living.

Unfortunately, capitalism is a winner takes all system. If your neighbour declines seeing his chiuldren grow up so he can slave his life away working, he wins all. Such is the nature of the rat race.

By it, the pinnacle of evolution, the creative ape, reduces itself to the level of the worker ant. :shame:

Dim lights; close curtain.

:bow:

The scrapping of retirement and pension age is potentially a good idea. A graduated retirement schedule may result in overall cost savings.

[rory_20_uk]

Sadly it seems all persons in France view themselves as ruling elite - others should provide so they can go on doing what they want.

Farms inefficient? Charge more to the consumers? Well, they aren't going to pay for it... Subsidies!
Want to retire early and not work hard? Be less materialistic. Impossible! How else to pay for holidays / expensive foods / clothes / healthcare etc?
There is another option: retire early and then die early too. As Health Economists say, death is free.

If France lived within its means it does not need to join the Capitalist system which it purports to despise. It doesn't, so it whines that others aren't giving even more money willingly, the current subsidies only enough to prop up parts of the countryside.

I like my job. I enjoy the work. The people are interesting too. I look forward to gaining experience and standing. I look forward to working abroad to get new experiences. I would not be happy working for 20 hours a week and spending the rest of the time lying in the garden. I would be bored.

~:smoking:

[Andres]

Cut the pensions of the civil servants; bring pensions of people working in the private sector at the same level as the pensions of the civil servants.

But yeah, I think you should be able to retire at 60 and have a state pension; maybe get a larger one if you keep working until 65 or so (or tax benefits if you keep working after you turned 60).

With all the modern technology we now have, we need less work force. It's absurd that people still have to work work work and those that don't work are considered to be lazy nitwits. The more progress we make, the less work force we need, so there simply is not enough work to keep everybody busy full time.

In my country, 434.748 people are currently unemployed. I refuse to believe that this are all lazy useless people. Yet, our government tries to sell to us that the age of retirment has to be set on 67 or 68 instead of 65. Why would I have to keep working my butt of until I reach 68 while there are so many people unemployed, most of them eager to find a job? It's absurd.

I think we need to rethink everything and need to get out of the frameworks we're so stuck in. This is 2010, not 1970.

It should be forbidden to work more than 4 days a week as long as there are so many unemployed people.

Those who have a job, should work less, earn less, enjoy their lives; those who don't have a job, need to get one, to regain self-esteem.

This is one of my pet peeves; so many people are jobless, yet they try to tell us we have to work harder, more and longer. I don't care about what statistics and studies you throw at me in an attempt to convince me that this isn't absurd. It is absurd, period.

[Idaho]

There should be no state pension (or an extremely limited one).

I agree.

A man who has struggled to find work that pays much more than minimum wage, paid a mortgage (or if they are really unlucky - paid rent), raised children, etc

A woman who was widowed after raising children

A person who was unable to work due to illness.

These are the people who should by rights be roaming the streets begging. That'll make the place better and mean that us middle classes don't have to pay any more taxes. After all - there is that new ipad I want, and there's the new car we want.

[rory_20_uk]

For the hard of thinking amongst us:

A minimum state pension means one doesn't have to beg! :idea:

Perhaps that woman can get help from her children - or maybe get a job part time...
Only able to get a menial job? Good to see that the decade or so in school wasn't wasted. He should be showered with money for achieving nothing. After all, in areas of unemployment it'd be unfair to have to move. Best leave that to Eastern Europeans to do that sort of thing.

Widowed: Life insurance
"Unable" (odd that we have twice as many of these persons as France - must be the climate...) to work: Income insurance.

I agree. Since there are so many ways to better oneself and gain qualifications and ways to hedge against adversity that people don't take, I say we tax everyone to the hilt, employ a legion of people to give out benefits in a variety of ways (currently 51 with 800 pages of documents to help understand what is for what) as this will make society independent and self sufficient...

~:smoking:

[Ice]

The point of life is not to spend as much of it working as possible. The point is creative, human, emotional, aestethic, intellectual, hedonistic pursuit.

Economic growth and progress need to be geared towards that.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world is inhabited by worker ants who think people ought to work fourteen hours a day, six days a week, 50 weeks a year, from age five until death. This, its proponents triumphantly claim, means more production and thus is superior. They are right it allows for more economic production and bitterly, bitterly wrong in mistaking it for higher standard of living.

Unfortunately, capitalism is a winner takes all system. If your neighbour declines seeing his chiuldren grow up so he can slave his life away working, he wins all. Such is the nature of the rat race.

By it, the pinnacle of evolution, the creative ape, reduces itself to the level of the worker ant. :shame:

That's all nice and good (I'd agree with you to some extent about most of the world being overworked), but France takes this to an EXTREME. You can't have a 35 hour work week, retirement at 60 with 70% of your salary, and five weeks vacation and be competive with the rest of the world. It simply does not work. With increased lifespan in developed nations, people are living longer. Unless you simply want to tax everyone at 60% of their income, there is simply is no way to afford this and stay competiive. Reality blows.

Btw, it was the socialists who lowered the retirement age (seems logical right?). Well, one has to look at possible alterior motives. Allowing workers to retire, opens up jobs for others, reducing the umemployment rate. It seems more of a way of manipulating economic data that actually caring about the worker.

[Kagemusha]

The point of life is not to spend as much of it working as possible. The point is creative, human, emotional, aestethic, intellectual, hedonistic pursuit.

Economic growth and progress need to be geared towards that.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world is inhabited by worker ants who think people ought to work fourteen hours a day, six days a week, 50 weeks a year, from age five until death. This, its proponents triumphantly claim, means more production and thus is superior. They are right it allows for more economic production and bitterly, bitterly wrong in mistaking it for higher standard of living.

Unfortunately, capitalism is a winner takes all system. If your neighbour declines seeing his chiuldren grow up so he can slave his life away working, he wins all. Such is the nature of the rat race.

By it, the pinnacle of evolution, the creative ape, reduces itself to the level of the worker ant. :shame:

Couldnt agree more.Well said Louis.


That's all nice and good (I'd agree with you to some extent about most of the world being overworked), but France takes this to an EXTREME. You can't have a 35 hour work week, retirement at 60 with 70% of your salary, and five weeks vacation and be competive with the rest of the world. It simply does not work. With increased lifespan in developed nations, people are living longer. Unless you simply want to tax everyone at 60% of their income, there is simply is no way to afford this and stay competiive. Reality blows.

Btw, it was the socialists who lowered the retirement age (seems logical right?). Well, one has to look at possible alterior motives. Allowing workers to retire, opens up jobs for others, reducing the umemployment rate. It seems more of a way of manipulating economic data that actually caring about the worker.

Well the workers claiming the jobs of those retired create tax revenue as well. To me it is lot more important to make each citizen be somewhat productive, rather then host a large group of unemployed,while others are worked to death.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I think minimum retirement ages should be scrapped. Either you have built up sufficient capital to live out the remainder of your life without working for pay; or you have not in which case you should probably continue working. (E.g retirement at 40 is unlikely for that same reason; whereas retirement at 60 may be quite plausible for some.)

[Strike For The South]

The point of life is not to spend as much of it working as possible. The point is creative, human, emotional, aestethic, intellectual, hedonistic pursuit.

Economic growth and progress need to be geared towards that.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world is inhabited by worker ants who think people ought to work fourteen hours a day, six days a week, 50 weeks a year, from age five until death. This, its proponents triumphantly claim, means more production and thus is superior. They are right it allows for more economic production and bitterly, bitterly wrong in mistaking it for higher standard of living.

Unfortunately, capitalism is a winner takes all system. If your neighbour declines seeing his chiuldren grow up so he can slave his life away working, he wins all. Such is the nature of the rat race.

By it, the pinnacle of evolution, the creative ape, reduces itself to the level of the worker ant. :shame:

2 weeks of vacation?

Wow you French have it good

[Kagemusha]

Well if retirement age should be scrapped.Why dont we force the children to work also? Those little nuisances only spend their days idle or in schools with tax payers money.This cant be tolerated!:no:

[rory_20_uk]

The age of leaving school has been historically another technique to reduce unemployment by artificially reducing the workforce. 12, then 14, 16, 18, 21.

It is equally insane to leave children in school, not learning, not doing anything practical that they might enjoy to be discharged with a piece of paper that officially proves they are not academics.

Leaving school early does not preclude academic achievement later. One of the Partners who I work with left school at 16 to work in a lab. He's now done a BSc, a MSc and is a consultant in the field of microbiology.

~:smoking:

[Kagemusha]

The age of leaving school has been historically another technique to reduce unemployment by artificially reducing the workforce. 12, then 14, 16, 18, 21.

It is equally insane to leave children in school, not learning, not doing anything practical that they might enjoy to be discharged with a piece of paper that officially proves they are not academics.

Leaving school early does not preclude academic achievement later. One of the Partners who I work with left school at 16 to work in a lab. He's now done a BSc, a MSc and is a consultant in the field of microbiology.

~:smoking:

Yes lets put the 14 years old to sweatshops for 16 hours a day.What a grand idea!

[rory_20_uk]

Let me know when you are up to debating the topic and not going off on one... :strawman3:

~:smoking:

[Kagemusha]

Let me know when you are up to debating the topic and not going off on one... :strawman3:

~:smoking:

I dont think there is enough common ground to debate with you on the subject.I find your notions disturbing in too many levels, to try and convince you otherwise.

[rory_20_uk]

I agree. If "debate" includes giving examples using twice the average working day for adults in the UK then what is the point?

~:smoking:

[Tellos Athenaios]

2 weeks of vacation?

Wow you French have it good

The French take the saying “Living as God in France” literally, word for word. ~;)
@Kagemusha: The retirement age was invented in a day and age that pretty much everyone did start working early, the people at age 60 were actually really old and health&safety regulations not to mention mechanisation & automatisation were nowhere near what we have now. In other words, the good old days. Back on planet earth that meant you worked for about 40 - 50 years. Today that means you work about 30-40 years, and the yardstick of old age has been pushed well back to 80-90 years old.

Now, over here where I live the retirement process is complicated somewhat by the fact that you have personal capital (pension), possibly a labour-contract mandated pension (paid by the employer as part of secondary work conditions similar to company cars and days off), and finally a state handout called AOW. That AOW is fairly expensive to society as a whole but to the people who do have a solid pension it is not quite all that it is cracked up to be. It won't pay you house rent, for instance. I'd like to make the AOW be something more substantial but for a smaller portion of society. People who do have a solid pension and could do without AOW probably should not receive as much as those who don't... Depending on how it is done this could in fact work out as a reduction on income tax for all; a slightly higher AOW for some and no or less AOW for others.

Furthermore there is also a concept of forced-retirement age: people are forced to retire in some professions if over a certain age (70 or so). That should be done away with, it is purely an unemployment statistics trick that backfires on individuals who like their job and society as a whole because these people are typically highly experienced, skilled, and they pay for the upkeep of the state.

[Vladimir]

Yes lets put the 14 years old to sweatshops for 16 hours a day.What a grand idea!

:laugh4:

[Centurion1]

the meditteranean countries (greece, italy, spain and to a lesser degree france) will never be top dog becuase of this mindset of relaxation, early retirement, etc. However, worker ants as louis so eloquently stated are going to rule the world because they are more productive, like east asian nations.

[Brenus]

Yeap, scrap the retirement age! Now, guys, when your 707 70 years old pilot will go in the cockpit, I hope you won’t get out the plane…
Or the high-speed train.
And don’t give me the health problem as an answer as the pre-supposed is nowadays we are fit to work until 75. That is why we have to work longer…
Mind you, who will hire a 60 years old carpenter?

NEWS: The problem with workers is they don’t die fast enough for the pension to get profitable…

Solutions: Stop ban smoking, low the price of alcohol, more fast food, less health and safety thingies, more salt.

Of course, the other way to tax not any more the workforce but taking in account the machines ad tools of production in the taxation will not be an option. Not in our Capitalistic world. Machines and invests are important, not the people.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Louis, capitalism is like democracy, the worst form except for all of the others.

35 hour work week? Truly? I knew about the 5 weeks vac, but a 4 day week as well?

Typical salaried position in the USA is 45-55 hours/week, with higher numbers for most professionals. If you're looking to become one of those "horrid CEO" types at a major corp, plan on 60-70/week. Of course, once you reach CEO, you can kick back at about 45ish hours (as long as you remember you're on call 24-7-365.25.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The point of life is not to spend as much of it working as possible. The point is creative, human, emotional, aestethic, intellectual, hedonistic pursuit.

Economic growth and progress need to be geared towards that.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world is inhabited by worker ants who think people ought to work fourteen hours a day, six days a week, 50 weeks a year, from age five until death. This, its proponents triumphantly claim, means more production and thus is superior. They are right it allows for more economic production and bitterly, bitterly wrong in mistaking it for higher standard of living.

Unfortunately, capitalism is a winner takes all system. If your neighbour declines seeing his chiuldren grow up so he can slave his life away working, he wins all. Such is the nature of the rat race.

By it, the pinnacle of evolution, the creative ape, reduces itself to the level of the worker ant. :shame:

Capitalism is not a winner takes all system. That's silly hyperbole. The French system is collapsing not because the rest of the world wants to work, but because their system is unsustainable even among themselves.

The simple fact of the matter is that they cannot pay for the benefits they have decreed for themselves. Those working cannot pay for the benefits of those not working. The rest of the world could be as lazy - creative - as yourselves and that would just mean the rest of the world would be in France's situation. You speak of how the true purpose of life isn't just working, but defend high pensions. Your realize your system would have a better chance of working if people did not care so much about the high material value of their pensions - if they actually practiced what you claim they believe.



It should be forbidden to work more than 4 days a week as long as there are so many unemployed people.

Good grief. So you would massively cut the amount of production, while forcing employers to hire more people and pay more just to maintain the same level of production? You think reducing the economic incentive to hire people will increase employment?
:dizzy2:

CR

[Ice]

Louis, capitalism is like democracy, the worst form except for all of the others.

35 hour work week? Truly? I knew about the 5 weeks vac, but a 4 day week as well?

Typical salaried position in the USA is 45-55 hours/week, with higher numbers for most professionals. If you're looking to become one of those "horrid CEO" types at a major corp, plan on 60-70/week. Of course, once you reach CEO, you can kick back at about 45ish hours (as long as you remember you're on call 24-7-365.25.

I'd agree with this assessment. Public accountants work 40-50 hours during the non busy season, and anywhere from 50-70 hours during busy season. Big 4 (largest public accounting firms) work 50 hours year round, with busy season getting as high as 80.

[Meneldil]

Blabla

CR

The french system is collapsing no more than the american or british system. Last time I checked, you were the guys going to blow up the world economy because of your silly debts.

[gaelic cowboy]

The french system is collapsing no more than the american or british system. Last time I checked, you were the guys going to blow up the world economy because of your silly debts.

oh burned and eaten without salt

[PanzerJaeger]

The french system is collapsing no more than the american or british system. Last time I checked, you were the guys going to blow up the world economy because of your silly debts.

Agreed. Entitlements, debt, and government in general has grown out of control in most Western countries. France, or Sarkozy's supporters in France, are at least trying to do something to reform the system so it won't have to be completely scrapped later. We in the US, in our infinite wisdom, are rushing as fast as we can to add new unfunded entitlements, more debt, and increase the size of government - largely based on the fact that Europeans have such things, the same Europeans who are now realizing they cannot afford them.

[miotas]

Louis, capitalism is like democracy, the worst form except for all of the others.

35 hour work week? Truly? I knew about the 5 weeks vac, but a 4 day week as well?

Typical salaried position in the USA is 45-55 hours/week, with higher numbers for most professionals. If you're looking to become one of those "horrid CEO" types at a major corp, plan on 60-70/week. Of course, once you reach CEO, you can kick back at about 45ish hours (as long as you remember you're on call 24-7-365.25.

I think people are getting a bit too worked up about this whole thing. We have a work week here of 38 hours, but that doesn't mean that it's illegal or something to work more, most full time workers probably do 40+ hours a week. These things are just good to set up so that the employee has some rights and some bargaining power. Do you get any holidays at all in the US? Here it's 4 weeks.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I think people are getting a bit too worked up about this whole thing. We have a work week here of 38 hours, but that doesn't mean that it's illegal or something to work more, most full time workers probably do 40+ hours a week. These things are just good to set up so that the employee has some rights and some bargaining power. Do you get any holidays at all in the US? Here it's 4 weeks.

Hmm perhaps it's because in the USA they have this large number of “bank holidays”. So they don't get as much vacation. By contrast in the Netherlands we've got a grand total of 1 national holidays (30th of April) with once every 4 years a second one (the 5th of May); plus we've got the usual Christian ones (Christmas/Boxing Day, Easter monday, Pentecost monday, Ascension).

[Ice]

The french system is collapsing no more than the american or british system. Last time I checked, you were the guys going to blow up the world economy because of your silly debts.

[resists urge to troll]

Thanks for your contribution. Now, back to topic please.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I think people are getting a bit too worked up about this whole thing. We have a work week here of 38 hours, but that doesn't mean that it's illegal or something to work more, most full time workers probably do 40+ hours a week. These things are just good to set up so that the employee has some rights and some bargaining power. Do you get any holidays at all in the US? Here it's 4 weeks.

There are 10 "federal" holidays which are also holidays for most private organizations, in practice, Christmas and Easter usually add a few more. Except for Christmas and Easter, most of these holidays are one day added to a weekend. Most private firms offer one or two weeks of vacation. Put together, most yanks get 3-4 weeks, though (with some exceptions) no more than two weeks at any one time.

[Kagemusha]

Here is a nice chart about working hours per year with some countries.Its bit old, but you get the idea pretty well from it:

https://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4688/400pxyearlyworkingtime2.jpg

This shows clearly that spending time in work doesnt necessarily have anything to do with productivity. It is not as if we are all working on some assembly line. As you can see at the bottom.The horribly Nordic countries,Germany and Benelux countries can be found there. Single reason being that on average we all have 5 weeks of vacation+ national holidays. Our workers just work when they are at work and rest during their sufficient holidays.

[Meneldil]

[resists urge to troll]

Thanks for your contribution. Now, back to topic please.

Troll away, if you want. Fact remains that right now, it is not Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece - or god forbids us, France - who is the biggest threat to the European economy, but the UK, whose debt has grown largely out of hands. The only reasons UK isn't kept under scrutiny (and fooled around) by notation agencies like Spain is are:
1 - it hosts a large financial center.
2 - it is not part of the eurozone, which means the country will be able to manage its money on its own in case of a big crisis.
And on the world stage, the US debt is a bomb that might explode anytime, sending the world economy to hell.

That being said, I've been doing placements a lot lately, to finish my studies. I'm not paid, and work around 50 hours a week (though I get two-days long week-ends). Most people who work with me do the same (though they're paid, obviously). My mother works half-time, 26 hours a week. Which means she'd work at least ~40/45 hours full time.

35 hours is the minimum legal working time. If you want to increase it and your employer agrees, then you're free to do so. Despite what you might think, you're not going to be sent to a Gulag by the State Police because you're working more than 35 hours. Same for the retirement age. If you want to retire at 65 (which seems already way too old for me), you're usually free to do so, though your employer might not want to keep you that long in any case.
Been there, done that.

This whole "but people live longer" argument smells pretty bad. Yes, we live longer, but we still age at the same pace as we used to. We're still incapable of doing pretty much anything from 60/70 onward. I'm not appealed by the idea of spending 20 years of retirement as a moving vegetable. And I'm not even talking about the huge unemployement rates among young peps, that won't be solved by forcing old sobs to work till their death.

I'm also pretty sure to have read several reports from the OECD that explained productivity was much higher in France, Nordic countries and Germany than in the US. People work less, but they work faster here. Which would be a long way to explain why there are so many work-related suicides and stress issues in France I think.


Agreed. Entitlements, debt, and government in general has grown out of control in most Western countries. France, or Sarkozy's supporters in France, are at least trying to do something to reform the system so it won't have to be completely scrapped later.
We'll take the streets and cut their heads before they scrap the system.

[Ja'chyra]

The pension age and amount should be based on the input of the person and what the country can afford.

I work at least 37 hour weeks, usually around 42-45, and my pension after 40 years is £12k per year, or about 33% of my salary. As I am a civil servant this is seen as a gold plated pension.

[Idaho]

Typical salaried position in the USA is 45-55 hours/week, with higher numbers for most professionals. If you're looking to become one of those "horrid CEO" types at a major corp, plan on 60-70/week. Of course, once you reach CEO, you can kick back at about 45ish hours (as long as you remember you're on call 24-7-365.25.

I've worked in Japan, and know a number of people who have worked in the US. Both sound very similar with regard to their working hours culture. The expectation is that you arrive early and leave late, clocking up 50-60 hour weeks. They are also both very similar in that employees spend most of their dithering about doing *&^% all during this time - presenteeism. On of my (extended) in-laws has a high powered job over there and told them that he would do a 35 hour week and would do more work than anyone else in the office. Surprisingly they let him do it - and he does do more work in less time.

[Centurion1]

C
I've worked in Japan, and know a number of people who have worked in the US. Both sound very similar with regard to their working hours culture. The expectation is that you arrive early and leave late, clocking up 50-60 hour weeks. They are also both very similar in that employees spend most of their dithering about doing *&^% all during this time - presenteeism. On of my (extended) in-laws has a high powered job over there and told them that he would do a 35 hour week and would do more work than anyone else in the office. Surprisingly they let him do it - and he does do more work in less time.

Lol not really at all

[rory_20_uk]

I've worked in Japan, and know a number of people who have worked in the US. Both sound very similar with regard to their working hours culture. The expectation is that you arrive early and leave late, clocking up 50-60 hour weeks. They are also both very similar in that employees spend most of their dithering about doing *&^% all during this time - presenteeism. On of my (extended) in-laws has a high powered job over there and told them that he would do a 35 hour week and would do more work than anyone else in the office. Surprisingly they let him do it - and he does do more work in less time.

I heard that with somone who worked in research. They were all so busy competing to be there first and leave last that by Thursday they were almost unable to do their job which required the ablity to think and concentrate.

One reason I like being a Consultant is that my work outpus is the important thing. How long I took to get there is far less of a concern.

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

Whether you can retire or not at 60 is completely irrelevant.

Only 4.3% of the employees in the private sector here is over 60 years old. The state is a little better, with around 6-8%.

Employers don't want employees over 60. They have no choice but to retire.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, my friends dad retired a few weeks ago, at the age of 62. Did he want to? No. Was it his choice? Nope, his employer told him he was too old to work there and told him to retire.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Whether you can retire or not at 60 is completely irrelevant.

Only 4.3% of the employees in the private sector here is over 60 years old. The state is a little better, with around 6-8%.

Employers don't want employees over 60. They have no choice but to retire.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, my friends dad retired a few weeks ago, at the age of 62. Did he want to? No. Was it his choice? Nope, his employer told him he was too old to work there and told him to retire.

Actually, for most jobs in the USA, that would be actionable -- nothing like a hefty 6-figure settlement to take the sting out of forced retirement.

[HoreTore]

Actually, for most jobs in the USA, that would be actionable -- nothing like a hefty 6-figure settlement to take the sting out of forced retirement.

He is, of course, paid well by his employer to retire...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Only 4.3% of the employees in the private sector here is over 60 years old. The state is a little better, with around 6-8%.This age group would represent some 12% of the working population.
Of this 12%, how many have health problems, and how many are voluntarily retired? About 25% each? Then one is already at 4,3% - 6-8%.


What is so shocking about the statistic?

[HoreTore]

What is so shocking about the statistic?

You're forgetting to factor in the campaigns launched during the last decade to get people to work longer, and that despite medical advances, the numbers were better 20 years ago.

[Tristuskhan]

You're forgetting to factor in the campaigns launched during the last decade to get people to work longer, and that despite medical advances, the numbers were better 20 years ago.

Hore Tore, someone who sees this single little thing, is the one that France needs for President. Once you'll have handed our guillotine back to us.