View Full Version : The Dutch Elections 2010
Ok fellow and closet Dutchies these are interesting elections. The VVD is doing very well, they were right to not send Rutte on piano-lessons in favour of Verdonk. He dominates the debate. Balkenende does surpringly well. Wilders is unsurprisingly Wilders. Cohen well what to say, he should stick to arresting cartoonists in the middle of the the night as he can't debate. D66 is as empty as ever, nothing at all.
Kadagar_AV
05-27-2010, 11:01
Sweden also have upcoming elections.
However, I do not kid myself thinking the backroom cares. Not exactly great players on the world stage, are we, mate?
InsaneApache
05-27-2010, 13:47
I dunno, I might be interested in Dutch politics. I just don't know much about it. Can someone explain the different parties and what they stand for?
Oh and Finland isn't part of Scandinavia. :disguise:
Furunculus
05-27-2010, 13:58
Sweden also have upcoming elections.
However, I do not kid myself thinking the backroom cares. Not exactly great players on the world stage, are we, mate?
Finland: I am just joking of course. We all know it is not part of scandinavia, right? RIGHT!?
i' be pleased to hear about the swedish elections too, i'm interested and there isn't much coverage of swedish politics in british news.
the dutch elections are also of great interest, particularly because Wilders looks like he could shake up the orthodoxy of immigration, his success which will have an impact all over europe one way or another.
haha, i have a lot of Finnish friends where i live, and they do say such unflattering things about sweden in jest, i always got the feeling that their self imposed isolation from 'scandinavia' was viewed with amusement by by their fellow scandinavians. :)
Louis VI the Fat
05-27-2010, 14:08
Sweden also have upcoming elections.
However, I do not kid myself thinking the backroom cares. Then make it interesting for us. How did Reinfeldt's experiment work out? Did his NuModerate experiment turn out like NuLab in the UK - disastrous? Or did he manage to breathe new life in rightist politics? Has he created a viable alternative to Swedish social-democratic tradition?
Kadagar_AV
05-27-2010, 14:20
Then make it interesting for us. How did Reinfeldt's experiment work out? Did his NuModerate experiment turn out like NuLab in the UK - disastrous? Or did he manage to breathe new life in rightist politics? Has he created a viable alternative to Swedish social-democratic tradition?
Heck, I dont even find it interesting.
But yes, last 4 years have been under "conservative" leadership in Sweden. Mind you, what pass as conservatism in Sweden would have Fragony go all Guy Fawkes.
Only mildly interesting point is that the Swedish Democrats might get enough votes to have some impact. The Swedish democrats are of course the evil nazi part who thinks we accept way too many immigrants.
I of course am PROUD that we have a completely out of control immigration policy. The fact that just one of our SUBURBS has admitted more Iraqis than, say, the United States of America has altogether - must of course be seen as something to wave the Swedish flag about.
Tellos Athenaios
05-28-2010, 17:21
Which is a more interesting topic on the whole. ~;)
Kidding aside and bearing in mind this is about the the debate at RUG (which has a focus on issues of the northern 3 provinces) of which I caught only the tail (CO2 storage/ province merger).
Yes Cohen is not suitable to enter the debate in a blaze of smoke and fire; the man has had a career of holding coalitions together not shouting about how he's right and everyone else is wrong. He's suitable as a proper PM for a change, a way to put aside memories of that utter disgrace of a PM we have now.
Balkenende is what he looks like: a snakeoil salesman at his finest. Spouting carefully studied statements, all the while trying to bring the debate to a personal level “kijk”, “persoonlijk, denk ik”, “dan moet je”. The one good thing is that if I ever had the misfortune to fall for CDA propaganda, he would put me back on the right track well away from there...
Pechtold should quit being witty he's not good at it. Otherwise when there's a topic where he really knows his stuff, he does perform.
Halsema is what she's been the last 8-10 years or so? Consistent, relatively well informed even if you don't agree with her assessments. Her questions for Rutte were clever: not agressive but the way he avoided them (had to) was telling.
Rutte was good probably best except he shouldn't have been avoiding Halsema's questions like that. This way one can't help but feel Halsema is right in saying that the VVD is not to be trusted on issues of environment/CO2.
The SP guy (don't remember the name) was utterly forgettable, except for the last 30 seconds. True given the SP party structure one expects nothing less; but nevertheless it was good to see a candidate who had a grasp of what a debate on local issues *means*. He chose to spend his last 30 seconds of speech time on an appeal to keep the musical education offered in Groningen (which has funding issues). Nobody else pitched any similar issue.
If you want to get some real interest for your thread you could take the Stemwijzer and translate it for people who don't read Dutch comfortably? That way other ORG members can comment on the lunacy, the maddness and the ludicrous?
Banquo's Ghost
05-29-2010, 12:44
Please keep discussions in this thread on topic - which is the Dutch election.
Thank you kindly.
:bow:
Hmm it's pretty much settled, it's going to be a centre right coalition with support from the populists for majority unless something weird happens, works for Denmark. I am perfectly fine with that. The panic within Dutch labour is starting to show, the red machine is powerless in the digital era, can't riefenthal the web. It's all they know it's almost comical.
edit this however is great fun http://www.geenstijl.nl:80/mt/archieven/2010/05/kijk_een_heel_leuk_blond_meisj.html#comments
Kralizec
05-31-2010, 21:29
It looks like the VVD has a serious chance of becoming the largest party, and because of that might get the position of prime minister for the first time in history.
Wich I'd be willing to try. But the last thing I want is a government in wich the PVV has anything to say, and Rutte refuses to rule that out (I suspect that he also dislikes the idea but keeps it quite just to attract strategic votes from PVV-sympathisers, but you can't be sure)
So I'm probably going to vote D66 this time.
Are there any quizzes for the party that most reflects your views, for the dutch election?
Tellos Athenaios
06-01-2010, 08:05
Yes we call it Stemwijzer: http://www.stemwijzer.nl/TweedeKamer2010/index.html . Trouble is, it's in Dutch and so --unless you know a thing or two about Dutch-- you will likely not enjoy it very much.
Furunculus
06-10-2010, 08:49
Geert is the kingmaker in this election, and arguably the winner too:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/7816382/Dutch-election-Liberals-take-one-seat-lead-as-far-right-party-grows-in-influence.html
Hmm it's pretty much settled, it's going to be a centre right coalition with support from the populists for majority unless something weird happens, works for Denmark.
No, it won't! The right-wing populists won't gain a majority in parliament. Looks like it's gonna be paars plus (VVD, PvdA, GL, D66) after all, old fellow.
EDIT: Actually, a PVV-CDA-VVD coalition would amount for 76 seats out of 150. It is possible, my apologies :bow:
However, I'm still hoping for paars plus
CDA + VVD + PVV = 76 so it's possible we will see. But yeah probably purple. What is most important is that Job Cohen won't be president it would have bankrupted us. This is going to hurt but it needs to be done we got to reduce national debt.
But yeah probably purple. What is most important is that Job Cohen won't be president it would have bankrupted us. This is going to hurt but it needs to be done we got to reduce national debt.
I don't know about Job Cohen, I do like him. And the crime rates in Amsterdam have actually dropped (http://www.at5.nl/artikelen/41834/criminaliteit-onder-cohen-afgenomen) in the time that he was mayor. He was never the man for debating, he's one for administrating and keeping things together.
I don't mind Rutte as our prime minister (Cohen or Pechtold as vice-prime minister?), but I'd rather have seen Cohen in that position. Yay for the Jews!
So what does this mean for your Gezellig?
Less people bothering to go to the police doesn't mean there is less crime, Welten wasn't very happy with him. VVD + D66 + PVDA + GL sounds like the next best thing after VVD + CDA with PVV backing them.
edit: Go Geert suck it up and tone it down, it's been fun but it's time to get serious. Pension at 65 is unrealistic, make it 70 for all I care. VVD and CDA are checkmate. Now kindly stfu about the Islam or at least say it better, we can finally have a decent centre rightwing coalition don't ruin it. GOGO
ICantSpellDawg
06-10-2010, 14:57
Congratulations to the Dutch!
Skullheadhq
06-10-2010, 20:12
CDA isn't in any position to join a new coalition, the party is in chaos and CDA in a new coalition wold be an insult to the dutch voter, which halved it seats, CDA I think will be going in the opposition to show what it's worth, so far for an all right cabinet. Paars Plus would make the PVV the same as the SP two years ago, which lost most of it seats after not joining a coalition. PVV+VDD+PvdA is impossible two, since PVV and PvdA already excluede eachother in a possible coalition, and Paars Plus wouldn't be very stable, I predict new elections in november.
I predict new elections in november.
After the seventeenth, please, that's when I'll turn 18.
Tellos Athenaios
06-10-2010, 20:56
If the elections come November 18th you *still* won't be able to vote, Hax. You've to be eligible for voting when they start the preparations (when they determine who to send the required paperwork), so in practice it'd mean that you have to wait another term for voting people in or out of parliament.
If the elections come November 18th you *still* won't be able to vote, Hax. You've to be eligible for voting when they start the preparations (when they determine who to send the required paperwork), so in practice it'd mean that you have to wait another term for voting people in or out of parliament.
Is that so? Huh. Alright well, in that case, we should wait until our cabinet falls till after the seventeenth of november, right?
Tellos Athenaios
06-10-2010, 21:42
Yeah something like that ~;) Although I expect that between the parties of Paars plus there's actually plenty of common ground and also a clear understanding of what problems the government is supposed to be prioritizing. This means that much of the more crazy/unrealistic proposals can be shunted aside under the guise of setting priorities while the real issue is party leaders having to eat their words; and if the economy finally picks up they might even be rewarded for it.
All liberals except the PVDA they should find enough common ground, the important seats should go to the VVD and D66, and throw the loonies some crumbs. He's talking with Wilders first though, but I suspect it's just for the record. PVV won't go SP on them though they want this and are willing to do concessions
Tellos Athenaios
06-11-2010, 10:08
If Paars plus is going to happen then you can be sure that D66 will have no more offices than GroenLinks (after all GroenLinks actually won more seats than D66 did); and considerably less than PvdA. After all the PvdA is only one seat in parliament less than VVD is. So your dream of Purple-In-Name-Only isn't going to happen.
But PvdA and VVD can probably work together as well as they could in Paars I or II, especially considering they find themselves in a strangely familiar position now.
If Paars plus is going to happen then you can be sure that D66 will have no more offices than GroenLinks (after all GroenLinks actually won more seats than D66 did); and considerably less than PvdA. After all the PvdA is only one seat in parliament less than VVD is. So your dream of Purple-In-Name-Only isn't going to happen.
But PvdA and VVD can probably work together as well as they could in Paars I or II, especially considering they find themselves in a strangely familiar position now.
VVD doesn't need the pvda, D66 or the Greens, not true the other way around. VVD can really put her foot down when it comes to the important positions concerning finances and immigration. Give the PVDA something with which they can give hobby-jobs to party-members and these parasites are happy. A few carrots for the greens should be sufficient let's just make up a few.
Tellos Athenaios
06-11-2010, 10:47
Depends on a single big IF: that CDA is willing to join with VVD and PVV. If CDA is sufficiently power hungry not too proud to become a 3rd support beam in a coalition of 2 pillars; then the VVD can muscle itself forward using PVV support or CDA support depending on the particular issue. But it would be a cabinet with only 1 seat majority and therefore may not be exactly quite as stable. That way, Hax could get a voting card for birthday present yet.
IF however CDA either finds humility or is too proud to join with PVV then Rutte will be as much at the mercy of PvdA as PvdA would be at his and he still would need to appease the D66 and Groenlinks voters too. However the end result would be a far more comfortable majority to be able to survive some dissent from within the ranks without creating a deadlock in cabinet over it.
It's the CDA of course they are power-hungry. How are they going to profile themselves in the opposition anyway, they have shown to be *cough* quite flexible ideologically, they would become even smaller because they lost credibility. Talking about christian values for 4 years would be boring, and kinda hilarious considering, and economically they mostly agree with the VVD.
Oh teh irony
http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2010/06/winkel_in_amsterdam_weigert_pv.html#comments
http://www.geenstijl.nl:80/mt/archieven/2010/06/lol_ook_kunstenaars_stemmen_pv.html#comments
Kinda funny in a funny way, viva la post-war resistance!
VVD + CDA + PVV is getting closer with minority support from SGP, I think we can say bye to purple+
edit scuzi bumppost tried to edit browser is acting weird
Skullheadhq
06-12-2010, 12:13
SGP? Aren't they the party who wants to implent a theocracy in the Netherlands?
And I hope for VVD+CDA+PVV, that way the CDA will be halved again in the next election, those power-hungry Christian-Democrats don't get the message that they are not welcome, even when their seats are halved.
Minority support is only for stability, if only one steps out it' byebye government otherwise, as a new party PVV is very vulnerable for agitprop it needs backing. PVV will get in anyone's bed, just like everybody else, but with different motivations. Back to real democracy. Got to hate it, when you feed on it's perversion.
Back to real democracy.
Populism is a disease of democracy.
Populism is a disease of democracy.
Oh? It is it's very saviour, or democracy is truly flawed.
Well populism as in short term decisions which in the long term suck ("Free money for everyone and no taxes! Yippee!" on the Leftie side and "Execute all immigrants/paedophiles/murderers/etc that'll show 'em on the other") are clearly bad for democracy. But populism as in putting the interests of the general public aboce that of the elite is of course a good thing.
Well populism as in short term decisions which in the long term suck ("Free money for everyone and no taxes! Yippee!" on the Leftie side and "Execute all immigrants/paedophiles/murderers/etc that'll show 'em on the other") are clearly bad for democracy. But populism as in putting the interests of the general public aboce that of the elite is of course a good thing.
Well you are going to love monitoring this, the most capitalistic country on the planet is radicalizing.
Oh? It is it's very saviour, or democracy is truly flawed.
Populism finds it roots in the generalisation of a ethnic, religious or cultural minority. That's the foundation of populism. Democracy finds it roots in giving every citizen the same amount of power. Populism outright undermines the use of democracy.
Populism finds it roots in the generalisation of a ethnic, religious or cultural minority. That's the foundation of populism. Democracy finds it roots in giving every citizen the same amount of power. Populism outright undermines the use of democracy.
Some people are too studid to vote? Or any other excuse?
Skullheadhq
06-12-2010, 16:34
Some people are too studid to vote?
Most people are too stupid to vote.
Most people are too stupid to vote.
It's a good thing people who feel that way aren't in control. Such smugness, the uneducated farmer understands you can't grow anything on poor soil, he's smarter than many a armchair-cosmopolitan. I am all for no pay no say, no job no vote.
Skullheadhq
06-13-2010, 13:21
It's a good thing people who feel that way aren't in control.
Oh c'mon Frag, just look outside your windows. The country is filled with retards that make their houses all orange, buy completely useless **** 'because it's orange' and jump in the city canals fully clothed when the national team wins a match, and you say you trust them the administration of a nation? Have you been to the local AH, for gods sake there are mothers fighting (literally, they beat the **** out of eachother) just for orange wormlike TOYS. Imagine that, 50 year old woman fighting about some toys. I've seen it with my own eyes.
I don't think farmers are stupid, some of my best friends are farmers and know alot about politics, but when you see 50 year old mothers fighting over free toys , you start to doubt if everybody is mentally able to vote.
I am all for no pay no say, no job no vote.
How would you want to do that, entrepreneurs and some other trades are not registered as jobs, but they still work. And what about pensioners, they don't work so no vote for them, and what about those that already have enough money so stopped working, will they be punished because they made all that money that quick?
Doesn't seem to go the same way over here sadly. The CD&V is holding suite decently...
It's a good thing people who feel that way aren't in control.
Did I really say that.
My fellow Dutchies what do you make of the 'recommendations' Beatricks van Amsberg had her opperlakei recite, loyal dog of the crown that he is, Beatricks van Amsberg doesn't need to spread anything between her legs, loyal dogs lick like Lassie anyway. Do you understand what it really says?
Seamus Fermanagh
07-08-2010, 14:54
Wow, there IS someone in the Netherlands who's paying attention to politics instead of footie. Didn't think that would be true at the moment.
Wow, there IS someone in the Netherlands who's paying attention to politics instead of footie. Didn't think that would be true at the moment.
Terribly convenient for these royal pains and their loyal dogs, the recommendation is that government must ignore the vote of the parlement whenever it doesn't suit them, them being the crown and her loyal lapdogs. Bring forth the guillotine.
Tellos Athenaios
07-08-2010, 17:38
Wow, there IS someone in the Netherlands who's paying attention to politics instead of footie. Didn't think that would be true at the moment.
But in between consuming beer or icecreams or assorted fruits like cherries and raspberries in a sun-filled summer garden, watching football, and politics one can see why option #3 is clearly something only people with too little enjoyment of (1) or (2) in their life would choose (3).
Typed that from your laptop I guess.
But this is pretty serious, way too much power for the crown.
It's explained here http://www.prorepublica.nl/artikel.aspx?a=constitutionele_staatsgreep&t=Constitutionele+staatsgreep
HOLLAND
Hey Frags, when does Benelux officially unite?
Hey Frags, when does Benelux officially unite?
Impossible if it doesn't please her travesty. I'll explain what's happening.
The right won a majority in parlement, but they can't form a coalition, christians don't like Wilders. Purple, liberals + 3 leftwing party's is pretty much suicide for the liberals, leftist party's know that and will make unreasonable demands. Centre also isn't possible, labour holds of the boat and here's why, leader of labour wants to be president, which will become as it's the last possible option, so without the biggest party. We voted right and what we got is left. Right will go in the opposition, but their majority vote is useless as it can be just ignored if the queen doesn' like it. We can't rid of her anymore even if the whole parlement wants a republic.
Skullheadhq
07-13-2010, 15:05
First time I loved the monachy, ever ;)
Face it, PVV is way too radical for the Christian-Democrats. Going with Wilders would mean a schism in the CDA and would lead to break-away factions, and that is something they don't want to risk. VVD and PVV however are the same party with a different name, except that the leader of the VVD isn't a demagogue like Wilders is and could adapt to almost any cabinet. However, for how long could a VVD-Groenlinks-PVDA-D'66 cabinet last? VVD and GroenLinks are the exact opposites of eachother and disagree with eachother on almost any point, the failute of this cabinet will only lead to an even greater support of Wilders. Luckily we live in a many-party system (unlike the US and the UK) so many of Wilders insanity will be stopped by any cabinet partner.
Big mistake, VVD and CDA voters want the rightwing coalition. PVV will inevitably become the biggest party like it or not, nothing to do about that. You seem to be under the impression that bilderbea won't abuse her power, but that royal rat does that all the time. We know what pleases her majesty, Europe and the multicultural society, and of course her fat butt on the throne. Parlement can vote all they want in purple+ if the queen says NEINNEINNEIN it ain't going to happen.
The right won a majority, and Beatrix van Amsberg doesn' like the right, so she makes sure a majority vote is useless. Democracy?
Louis VI the Fat
07-14-2010, 08:58
Maybe, just maybe, mainstream society / the leftist multicult is wary about forming a coalition with Wilders. I've heard rumours that some consider Wilders a populist rabble-rouser with policies contrary to democratic principles.
Austria let the far right join the government, in Denmark the far right 'supports' the government, and in Belgium there is a cordon sanitaire. The Dutch parties will have to decide their strategy for dealing with the populist far right. These parties are problematic, it is not a given that they ought to be considered 'normal' and should be formed a government with. It is not the stuff of conspiracy theories, but of democratic soul-searching.
Maybe, just maybe, mainstream society / the leftist multicult is wary about forming a coalition with Wilders. I've heard rumours that some consider Wilders a populist rabble-rouser with policies contrary to democratic principles
Not the problem, fine with me never stop the enemy when he's making a mistake. Problem is that now that there is a rightwing majority their vote on issues can be just ignored. Even the entire parlement can be ignored, if the entire parlement wants a republic and Bilderbea says NEINNEINNEIN it aint going to happen.
Tellos Athenaios
07-14-2010, 15:47
Maybe, just maybe, mainstream society / the leftist multicult is wary about forming a coalition with Wilders. I've heard rumours that some consider Wilders a populist rabble-rouser with policies contrary to democratic principles.
Austria let the far right join the government, in Denmark the far right 'supports' the government, and in Belgium there is a cordon sanitaire. The Dutch parties will have to decide their strategy for dealing with the populist far right. These parties are problematic, it is not a given that they ought to be considered 'normal' and should be formed a government with. It is not the stuff of conspiracy theories, but of democratic soul-searching.
The Dutch parties have a strategy. It is called opposition, the worst enemy of an angry right (or left, for that matter) wing populist are his equally angry followers -- the infighting and their policies do more to dispel their myths among voters than reasoned debate alone: where is the LPF now, eh? Opposition is feasible in the Netherlands because a consensus is required on pretty much everything; so you cannot rule if you cannot gain significant support for your ideas outside of your own party.
Not the problem, fine with me never stop the enemy when he's making a mistake. Problem is that now that there is a rightwing majority their vote on issues can be just ignored. Even the entire parlement can be ignored, if the entire parlement wants a republic and Bilderbea says NEINNEINNEIN it aint going to happen.
How can they get ignored? Couldn't they do a referendum then just kick her out?
How can they get ignored? Couldn't they do a referendum then just kick her out?
Nope not possible, that is why this kinda tickles my angry bone. What it says is that a majority-vote can be ignored if it harms Dutch interests, what these interests are aren't defined, can be anything. And our royal family are mobsters pure and simple, they gathered their fortune with the opium trade, in the 30's they were pro-nazi ffs. They will do anything to stay in power, they are the founders of the Bilderberg group. Including personally making sure Fortuyn got no bodyguards.
Nope not possible, that is why this kinda tickles my angry bone. What it says is that a majority-vote can be ignored if it harms Dutch interests, what these interests are aren't defined, can be anything. And our royal family are mobsters pure and simple, they gathered their fortune with the opium trade, in the 30's they were pro-nazi ffs. They will do anything to stay in power, they are the founders of the Bilderberg group. Including personally making sure Fortuyn got no bodyguards.
But if they don't have the support of the people, then the people could basically declare war on the royals, akin to the English civil war. What you do is set up a referendum, and if the Monarchy fail to abide by it, the government seizes control from them, locking them up and throwing away the key.
Tellos Athenaios
07-14-2010, 17:00
Long story short: Fragony is at best overstating the case and at worst plain wrong. In order to dispose of the royal family we need a change of constitution, which isn't going to happen anytime soon. But Fragony is wrong to suggest that Beatrix can roll up her sleeves and get on with the governing business -- formally she is supposed to say yes and amen to everything a cabinet says, and she is not allowed her own opinions (not in public, anyway). There's a few moments she can do something:
(a) Speech day.
(b) Post election cabinet formation/negotiation. She is supposed to appoint the people who will oversee this, and in case these people report that cabinet formation is impossible she can appoint a cabinet of people from outside parliament which then will have to go and fetch the stamp of parliamentary approval for about everything. Formally, all cabinets need to do that but that is usually little more than a formality because cabinet is usually made up of members from parties with a majority seat in parliament.
But if they don't have the support of the people, then the people could basically declare war on the royals, akin to the English civil war. What you do is set up a referendum, and if the Monarchy fail to abide by it, the government seizes control from them, locking them up and throwing away the key.
Nope not possible, was before 1830, she can now overrule it should purple+ succeed. As I said before this WC is terribly convenient for our beloved royal parasites.
Oh TA, am I, it's there for everyone to read. And do I really have to point out 'the secret of the Catshuys' for effect.
Fragony, you are such a lefty at times, makes you very likable.
HA the leftist party's are 100% loyal lapdogs of the crown, even the communists put on their best suits when they are summoned. Only the PVV says she should stick to cutting ribbons and wearing funny hats, or better, just go away.
Long Live the Republic!
God save the queen nobody else is going to do it. Looks like she seriously overplayed her hand. The coalition that pleases her majesty has failed, two choices for her, new elections where Wilders will become the biggest party, or just about the whole parlement in a coalition against him, and then everything will be swept away the next one. People are seriously angry. And yeah my fellow Dutchie orgahs I know you aren't, but one out of 3 is considering voting Wilders now.
edit hotdamn that royal shellslut does it again
Skullheadhq
07-22-2010, 13:21
Why is the PVV even called the Freedom Party, it very much wants to restrict all forms of freedom (drugs, freedom of conscience etc.).
Anyway, no party wants to form a coalition with the PVV, they do not have any competent candidates for ministers except Wilders. Wilders is the only member of his party and all the PVV members of parliament are just yes-sheep with no own opinion, which Wilders made sure of, recalling the LPF disaster of 8 years earlier. Then Wilders' economic policies are more left than the Labour's, and Labour couldn't even agree with the liberals, what makes you think Wilders can.
If a right-wing cabinet happens (which is unlikely), Wilders will betray all of his voters by dumping his economic and social policies and just go on muslim-hunt, which the Christian-Democrats wouldn't want.
I still hope for a SP-GL(/D'66)-PvdA-CDA cabinet, in which the SP will do the Ministry of Defense.
Also Frag, just stop crying, the queen isn't left. The first informer was a right-wing liberal, the second was a very moderate social-democrat and the third is a christian-democrat (who is still being prosecuted because he slapped a lady on the butt years ago). The queen doesn't stop your right-wing cabinet from happening, the Christian-Democrats and Wilders to a certain degree does.
lol@muslimhunt boy do they got you, that would cost him a considerable amount of his voters, the secular muslims who know exactly what he's talking about, and didn't come here to find it here as well.
PVV is anti establishment, bilderbea and her loyal lapdogs are the establishment. Simple as that. Can't win this, but by all means keep trying, when you are slowly sinking into a swamp it's best to not move too much, good luck not getting that.
Skullheadhq
07-22-2010, 13:56
lol@muslimhunt boy do they got you, that would cost him a considerable amount of his voters, the secular muslims who know exactly what he's talking about, and didn't come here to find it here as well.
I didn't mean it literally, like the lynchings in the South of the US. What will be left of his policies when he drops his social and economic policies? Exactly, the part where he hates on (radical) muslims and 'the Morrocan/Turkish/ youth' will make him a single-issue party. Even if he would want to remove or curtail the queen, there would still be a pro-monarchy CDA which would never allow it. And even if the CDA would turn anti-monarchy overnight, he would still need 66% percent of the parliament to remove the part that says you can't remove the queen, then he would need a referendum which will most likely fail since most dutch are pro-monarchy, and even if that magically succeeds the queen could dissolve parliament with all consequenses. I believe that scenario happened more than once in history, with not-so-nice consequences.
And btw, what's with all those right-wing nuts who keep saying Netherlands will be ruined and that the Netherlands is sick, we're still in the top 10 of best countries to live in and the top 10 of the most democratic country etc etc. The mass-immigration which is 'destroying the Netherlands' amounts to 8150 immigrants each year, which is 0.05% of the population. The argument that the Netherlands is full is moot as well, since more people leave than come in.
Nothing is going to happen whatever promise he breaks, he's our crowbar. Fortuyn was 10 times the man Wilders will ever be, but it's what we got and it will have to do.
On the muslim stuff he pretty much nails it here (sorry in Dutch).
http://www.nrc.nl/opinie/article2584468.ece
Skullheadhq
07-22-2010, 14:47
I hope Wilders will somehow get in the government, that's the quickest way to get rid of him. I don't bother, I don't own a car so I won't be hit with an oil embargo.
I hope Wilders will somehow get in the government, that's the quickest way to get rid of him. I don't bother, I don't own a car so I won't be hit with an oil embargo.
You mean some inconveniences for Royal Shell, does that frighten you as well? Her majesty is shareholder, it's really a business.
Skullheadhq
07-22-2010, 15:25
You mean some inconveniences for Royal Shell, does that frighten you as well? Her majesty is shareholder, it's really a business.
Uhm yeah, I guess that the oil industry really is a business. I hope for your Wilders that there is enough oil in Israel. What cabinet would you like to see and how do you see this realised?
Uhm yeah, I guess that the oil industry really is a business. I hope for your Wilders that there is enough oil in Israel. What cabinet would you like to see and how do you see this realised?
lol there we have it, Israel huh, such a hindrance for that desired harmony. But we don't really care for that grouphug. Where did you get that oil-embargo argument from ooooooph economy, sounds like barefooted idealism just doesn't cut it anymore.
Skullheadhq
07-22-2010, 16:16
lol there we have it, Israel huh, such a hindrance for that desired harmony. But we don't really care for that grouphug. Where did you get that oil-embargo argument from ooooooph economy, sounds like barefooted idealism just doesn't cut it anymore.
You do know where the oil comes from huh? I give you one hint, it's not from Geertland.
And then again, what cabinet do you prefer and how do you see it realised?
You do know where the oil comes from huh? I give you one hint, it's not from Geertland.
And then again, what cabinet do you prefer and how do you see it realised?
What do you think pays oil.
And all the right needs is the inherent certainty of the left screwing up in just about every neighbourhood that had to function as their social testlab
Skullheadhq
07-22-2010, 17:20
What do you think pays oil.
Tell that to Cuba, I mean who cares about a boycott when you have money?
Louis VI the Fat
07-22-2010, 17:39
The mass-immigration which is 'destroying the Netherlands' amounts to 8150 immigrants each year, which is 0.05% of the population. The argument that the Netherlands is full is moot as well, since more people leave than come in.I'm afraid this is incorrect. In all European countries, there is a tendency to downplay immigration numbers, to work the stats. 'We are talking really small numbers anyway, a handful, why are you persecuting them'. Yet anybody who has ever visited an old age home and a kindergarten in Western Europe can see the enormity of the demographic change that's sweeping over Western Europe.
The Netherlands, the most densely populated country in the Western world, has massive immigration. Astonishingly, the Netherlands has an annual immigration larger than Australia, which is the size of the whole of Europe and which runs a deliberate mass immigration policy. Because of the recession, Australia has reduced its immigration target to 115000.
The Netherlands: not 8150 immigrants, but 146.378. Or, twenty times as much as you've been led to believe. Or 1% of the population, per year. ~:eek:
The Netherlands has these immigration numbers not because the population wants it, or as the result of a carefully deliberated policy to attract immigrants to develop the country, but simply because anybody who raises quastions about is deemed a fascist. Call it lingering trauma of the war. (Which incidentally also has the result that it is mostly fascists who object)
Net immigration is 61021. These numbers don't tell the whole story. A fair bit of that one percent are simply Dutch people migrating to and fro Belgium or Germany. Net immigration from non-developed countries is 32670. I would assume that there is a net emigration of native Dutch, especially the highly educated. Whereas for migration to and fro developing countries, this is reversed, with an emphasis on highly educated people remigrating, and lower educated staying. In the current climate, an educated Muslim does not feel at home anymore in the current hostile situation, whereas the uneducated realise the Dutch welfare state will still be preferable to life back home. The third world is rapidly developing, the difference with the West for a great many places is not in living standard, but in income inequality. The upper middle class, the top 15%, in Brazil or the Phillipines enjoy a living standard rivalled only by the very wealthiest in Western Europe. This is a major concern for all West European welfare states: there is a large emigration of the educated, and a large immigration of the uneducated, both natives and non-natives. Combine it with crumbling solidarity, and here is Fragony's revenge: Europe's migration policy will destroy social-democracy. (Which is a shame, because social-democracy is the most civilised society the world has ever produced.)
http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?VW=T&DM=SLEN&PA=03742eng&D1=0-4&D2=0-7&D6=a,!0-7&HD=100722-1745&LA=EN&HDR=T&STB=G5,G1
For fun / exaspiration, Australia's immigration policy.
The Ozzies work out how many of which skills they need, and then simply set a quota. 'The list will now comprise mainly health and medical, engineering and IT professions': http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/media-releases/2009/ce09030.htm. :wall:
Tellos Athenaios
07-22-2010, 17:55
@Louis: A note of sanity, at last! But also look at how much those numbers vary. That net immigration of 60K in 2009 versus one of 10K in 2006.
As far as migration of educated Dutch people goes, a sort of popular “destination” is Norway/Sweden both actively advertise work & life in those countries. Increasingly China and India try and attract students, too.
Louis mia muca nothing wrong with your eyes. But no reason to get all to pessimistic, once the idiots stop catering the loonies we will be just fine.
Skullheadhq
07-22-2010, 18:30
Isn't Australia the country where they burned some Asian students alive not too long ago? Not really the ideal place for immigrants to go.
Louis VI the Fat
07-22-2010, 19:54
Louis mia muca nothing wrong with your eyes. But no reason to get all to pessimistic, once the idiots stop catering the loonies we will be just fine.Fine...fine. That depends a good deal of what one considers fine.
The demographic replacement is still gaining traction. Even if all immigration were to stop today, in much of Western Europe the demographic transition would still caryy on for decades. Owing to different age pyramids and number of children. Even moreso than immigration numbers, demographic make-up of newborns is a good indicator of the future population. When a third of newborns are non-Europeans, then, disregarding immigration or birthrate per woman, in eighty years time a third of the population will be non-European. Or rather populations will be mixed. 'Mixed-race' is the fastest growing ethnicity in France.
One immigrant of childbearing age ought to be tripled for demographic effect. If a population of three X, spread out over three generations, accept a newcomer Y of childbearing age, the effect will not be that one quarter of the population will be Y, but half will be. Population X will be one grandparent, one parent, and one child. Y will have a child, then become a grandparent, and population Y will eventually consist of three persons too. X and Y will be equal in size in two generations time. Should Y have double, or triple, the birthrate of X, then the demographic effect will be more pronounced still.
Let's assume that country H accepts 30000 immigrants of childbearing age. Assume that it takes these immigrants two generations to go from a third world birthrate to a first world one. The first generation will have four children, the second three, and from the third generation it will have the birthrate of the hostcountry, two. And disregarding migration or intermarriage.
This group of 30k will then have 60k offspring. This second generation will have 90k offspring. This third generation will have 90k offspring, as will subsequent generations. When the fifth generation is born and the third are the grandparents, the population will have settled at 270k, at which it will stay. This process takes five generations, well over a century.
That is in a nutshell what is happening. The demographic effect of allowing in 32760 immigrants from developing countries is a permanent population of some 300k. (That is, assuming birthrates do settle at the level of the host country after the second generation...)
Can I be Rocharch?
edit, found english translation of an open letter of Wilders to the muslims he wrote last week, which pretty much sums up how I feel about it as well. Link isn't kosher so I copied the text.
Muslims free yourselves and you can do anything
Without Islam Arabs, Iranians, Indians and Indonesians have an enormous potential.
Islam makes Muslims un free and fatalistic answers Geert Wilders to the request of the international debate site muslims.debate.com.
I first visited an Islamic country in 1982. I was 18 years old and travelled with a Dutch friend from the Israeli Eilat to the Egyptian Red Sea beach Sharm al- Sheikh. We were two students with backpacks and had almost no money. We slept on the beach and found hospitality by Egyptians who spontaneously invited us to tea. I remember very clearly my first impression of Egypt: I was overwhelmed by the friendliness and helpfulness of the people.
I also remember my second strong impression of Egypt: I noticed how afraid the nice and friendly people were. While we were in Sharm al- Sheikh president Mubarak came coincidentally for a visit. I remember the fear which suddenly flooded the city when it was announced that Mubarak unexpectedly would come for a visit; Ik can still see the convoy of black cars on the day of his visit and still feel the almost visceral conciousness of the fear as a cold chill on an intensely hot summer day.
Mubarak was not regarded as the worst Islamic tyrant. I am curious as to how the Saudis feel if their king is in the city, how the Libyans feel if Gaddafi announces his arrival and how the Iraqis must have felt when Saddam Hussein was in the area. A few years later I read in the Koran how the 7th century Arabs felt in the presence of Mohammad, who as various verses describe "wrought terror into their hearts". (soera 8:12,8:60,33:26, 59:12).
I went with my friend from Sharm al -Sheik to Cairo. My friend and I were surprised that the poor and filthy Egypt could be a neighbor of Israel which was so clean. The explanation of the Arabs with whom we spoke over their poverty, was that this situation had nothing to do with them : according to them they were the victims of a worldwide conspiracy of the ‘imperialists' and ‘zionists' aimed at keeping the Muslims subservient. I did not find the explanation convincing. According to my intuition it had to do with the different cultures of Israel and Egypt.
In the last years of the nineteenth century Winston Churchill was a soldier and correspondent in British India (now Pakistan) and Sudan and that enabled him to dissect the problem with Islam with amazing clarity.
Next to the obsessive fanaticism… is the horribly fatalistic apathy", he wrote. The results can be seen in many countries . Where the followers of the prophet rule or live exist careless customs, sloppy farming areas, slow methods of trade and an uncertain property distribution. Individual Muslims can show shining qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyzes the societal development of it's followers. And Churchill concluded: There does not exist a stronger backward power in the world".
There are people who say that I hate the Muslims. I do not hate the Muslims. It makes me sad that Islam has been robbed of it's dignity.What Islam does to Muslims is to see in how they treat their daughters. On March 11 2002 fifteen Saudi school girls died when they attempted to flee their burning school in Mecca. The keys were in the position of a male guard who refused to open the door for the ‘immodestly' dressed girls. (without face veils and abayas) who tried to save their young lives. The Saudi police pushed them back into the burning building. Agents of the Muttawa the ‘Committee for promotion of virtue and the prevention of sins" as the police in Saudi -Arabia are called also hit passersby and firemen who tried to help the girls. ‘It is sinful to go near them' the bystanders were warned by police. It is also a crime.
Girls are not valued in Islam. A father who gets a daughter is according to the Koran" his face black so troubled is he" (soera 43:15). The incident in Mecca did bring many angry reactions. Islam in inhumane, but Muslims are people and therefore able to love- the powerful force which Mohammed despised. The humanity took over by the fathers in Mecca who were furious over the death of their daughters, but also the firemen resisted when the Muttawa pushed the girls back in, and by the journalists of the Saudi paper was for the first time in Saudi history criticism leveled on the feared and powerful "Committee for the promotion of virtue and the prevention of sins".
But Muslim protests against Islamic inhumanity are rare. In contrast most Muslims also in Western countries go to the mosque and listen to shocking verses from the Koran and disturbing sermons without rebelling against them.
I myself am an agnostic. But Christians and Jews believe that God has made man in his image. By looking at themselves as free rational beings who are capable of love they believe they can learn to know him. They can also have disagreements as the Jews have done throughout their whole history.
In contrast the Koran posits that "there is nothing like Allah"(soera 16:74,42,11) . He has absolutely nothing with us in common. It is absurd to claim that Allah has made man in his image. Also there is no personal relationship between man and Allah, who we must serve by means of total obedience to Mohammad as leader of the Islamic state (soera 3:31,4:80,24:62,48:10,57:28). And history has shown that Mohammed was surely not a prophet of love and mercy, but a mass murderer, a tyrant and a pedofile. The Muslims could not have chosen a more lamentable role model.
Without individual freedom it is not surprising that the idea of man as one who acts responsibly is not very developed in Islam. Muslims are often fatalistic. Perhaps- and let us hope- that it is only a few radicals who take the call in the Koran seriously to wage jihad against the unbelievers. That is the ‘horribly fatalistic apathy' which Churchill meant.
The writer Aldous Huxley, who lived in North Africa in the twenties of the last century noted the following: God is directly responsible for everything. You come by the local hospital. ‘ Are the doctors good?" ‘In our country', answered the Arab in a tone of Solomon ' we say that the doctors are of no use'. If Allah wants somebody to die, then he dies. If not, then he gets better'. For the Arab it appeared to be the highest human wisdom.[…] They have all fallen backwards- except for those who have been educated according to Western methods – in pre scientific fatalism, with a lack of curiosity and the apathy which accompanies it."
Islam takes away Muslims freedom. That is a pity, because free people are capable of great things as history has shown. The Arabs, Turks, Iranians, Indians and Indonesian people have enormous potential. If they were not prisoners of Islam, if they can free themselves of the yoke of Islam, if they no longer take Mohammed as role model and can wrest themselves free from the devilish Koran, then they will be capable of great things, not only of benefit to them but the whole world.
As Dutch, European and Western Politician my first responsibility is to the Dutch people, the Europeans and the West. But because we will all benefit if Muslims are freed from Islam I support with all my heart Muslims who love freedom. My message to them is clear: fatalism is not an option; ‘inshallah'is a curse; submission is a disgrace. Free yourself. It is on you.
CountArach
07-24-2010, 07:08
Isn't Australia the country where they burned some Asian students alive not too long ago? Not really the ideal place for immigrants to go.
Not that I'm aware of. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Indians_in_Australia_controversy) could be what you are referring to.
And Louis, we aren't reducing our immigration intake due to the recession, we are reducing it due to the fact that there is an election coming up and Australians just don't like immigrants.
Skullheadhq
07-24-2010, 12:01
Australians just don't like immigrants.
Implying Australians aren't all (criminal) immigrants, with the exception of Aboriginals.
PS: According to an Australian who moved to the Netherlands, Aboriginals drink petroleum, is this (partially) true? Or was he just joking?
Implying Australians aren't all (criminal) immigrants, with the exception of Aboriginals.
PS: According to an Australian who moved to the Netherlands, Aboriginals drink petroleum, is this (partially) true? Or was he just joking?
Heard that from an ozzy relative as well but she said spiritus, the very poor apparently also do that in Russia, supposedly causes many a death.
edit MUHA best elections ever, Beatrix van Amsberg has never been this openly criticised. Some nerve she has, but she made it too obvious. Even on the tradionally 100% loyal left her obvious meddling leaves a sour taste. Good. Her idiot of a son and that gold-digging juntawhore of his got a great time ahead of him when mommy is buried next to her SS-serving father and he has to take the crown.
Meanwhile it has become clear why the CDA didn't want to talk with the PVV, their left flank is kneedeep in the billions of euro's that go to the leftist hobby's that the PVV wants to cut.
CountArach
07-25-2010, 10:56
Implying Australians aren't all (criminal) immigrants, with the exception of Aboriginals.
Indeed.
PS: According to an Australian who moved to the Netherlands, Aboriginals drink petroleum, is this (partially) true? Or was he just joking?
Petrol sniffing is generally the worst petroleum-intake that occurs and it is generally quite common in rural areas where there are large Aboriginal populations.
But yeah... not entirely relevant here.
Muhahaha old :daisy: with your retard of a son and his juntawhore and your 100% loyal leftist lapdogs, you lose. There's going to be tears in hobbyland, good luck paying your houses in 100% white neighbourhoods you useless awareness-gits.
Edit and lol@Joppiefloppie you talitubbie
http://www.nu.nl/sevensheaven/1000103/popup.html
Disclaimer, if you aren't Dutch this post makes no sense. If you are, well it still doesn't make any sense but MUHA up yours duely
Skullheadhq
07-31-2010, 10:32
Muhahaha old :daisy: with your retard of a son and his juntawhore and your 100% loyal leftist lapdogs, you lose. There's going to be tears in hobbyland, good luck paying your houses in 100% white neighbourhoods you useless awareness-gits.
Edit and lol@Joppiefloppie you talitubbie
http://www.nu.nl/sevensheaven/1000103/popup.html
Disclaimer, if you aren't Dutch this post makes no sense. If you are, well it still doesn't make any sense but MUHA up yours duely
Stop right there! It's only negotiations, Paars III had 4 weeks of negotiations after it failed.
But I'll explain it for the non-Dutch:
Three right-wing parties: CDA (Christian right), VVD (Economic Liberals) and the PVV (Geert Wilders) have had secret meetings for 5 days where they discussed if negotiations could be succesful, these negotiations have partially failed. Wilders (PVV) wants to outlaw the Qur'an and tax veils and punish ethnic minorities more severely than whites, this to the discontent of the Christian-Right who is pro-freedom of Religion and against discrimination. So it has been agreed to that the CDA (Christian-Right) and the VVD (Economic Liberals) will form a cabinet together, but those two parties only have 52 seats in Parliament. The parliament counts 150 seats so the cabinet is in the minority, which is rare for the Netherlands. The last (and only) minority cabinet in the Netherlands (Colijn V) fell after 30 days, so that's not a very good omen. Because of this shortage of seats the PVV will help the cabinet on some major points. This is a very dangerous position to be in because Wilders could force some of his anti-Islam positions or if the cabinet denies it, let it fall, which will make the country leaderless in the economic crisis.
lol Skull the ban on the Qu'ran and tax on headscarves only exists to be dropped to supposedly not lose face. It isn't constitutionally possible to actually do it, it's a trap and they walked right into. Nasty? Absolutely, but all that is done is depending on stupidity.
Skullheadhq
07-31-2010, 11:15
lol Skull the ban on the Qu'ran and tax on headscarves only exists to be dropped to supposedly not lose face. It isn't constitutionally possible to actually do it, it's a trap and they walked right into. Nasty? Absolutely, but all that is done is depending on stupidity.
Stupidity? More the greed for power from the CDA and Rutte's ambition to become prime-minister at all costs. I read an article where many PVV electors said the ban on the Qur'an should be the main point of the next cabinet.
Stupidity? More the greed for power from the CDA and Rutte's ambition to become prime-minister at all costs. I read an article where many PVV electors said the ban on the Qur'an should be the main point of the next cabinet.
Got you there I guess, it's not possible it would need a change of the consitution and that takes 2 parlements, 50% aproval is needed at first, and 70% of the next parlement before it can even be even legal.
Skullheadhq
07-31-2010, 12:00
Got you there I guess, it's not possible it would need a change of the consitution and that takes 2 parlements, 50% aproval is needed at first, and 70% of the next parlement before it can even be even legal.
Got you there! Laws are not required to be tested to the constitution.
De Grondwet is de hoogste wet van een land. Het zou dus logisch zijn als een wet die in strijd is met de Grondwet nietig ofwel ongeldig verklaard kan worden. De rechter zou zo'n wet dan kunnen toetsen aan de Grondwet. Anders dan in bijvoorbeeld de Verenigde Staten of de Duitse Bondsrepubliek heeft Nederland een dergelijk toetsingsrecht nooit gekend. Dit omdat men meent dat daarmee het risico bestaat dat de rechter op de stoel van de wetgever gaat zitten, met andere woorden, dat de democratische verkozen Tweede Kamer haar plaats als hoogste wetgevend orgaan verliest. Nederland en Finland zijn de enige twee landen in de EU waar deze toetsing nog verboden is.
Got you there! Laws are not required to be tested to the constitution.
Nope you don't, freedom of religion is a constitutional right, constitutional rights can't just be changed. Politicians can make laws as long as they don't conflict with the constitution, that's the framework they have to work within. You have been played, sorry for also doing it and being better at it.
Skullheadhq
07-31-2010, 12:55
Nope you don't, freedom of religion is a constitutional right, constitutional rights can't just be changed. Politicians can make laws as long as they don't conflict with the constitution, that's the framework they have to work within. You have been played, sorry for also doing it and being better at it.
Outlawing a book isn't the same as outlawing a religion.
Outlawing a book isn't the same as outlawing a religion.
Mia muca it was never about that, it is and always will be the mullcultural left. You shouldn't be so quik to underestimate people, pretty stupid thing to do
Skullheadhq
07-31-2010, 14:40
Mia muca it was never about that, it is and always will be the mullcultural left. You shouldn't be so quik to underestimate people, pretty stupid thing to do
Huh? It was never about that, it is and always will be the multicultural left (multicultural left wants to outlaw Qur'an?) You shouldn't be so quik (sic) to underestimate people (the multicultural left will succeed in outlawing the Qur'an?), pretty stupid thing to do
This makes no sense!
Huh? It was never about that, it is and always will be the multicultural left (multicultural left wants to outlaw Qur'an?) You shouldn't be so quik (sic) to underestimate people (the multicultural left will succeed in outlawing the Qur'an?), pretty stupid thing to do
This makes no sense!
Yes it does, No more policy of funded leftist activism will have to do for now, a complete change of attitude on government spendings is going to take longer 10 years or so, when the babyboomers are gone
Tellos Athenaios
07-31-2010, 16:44
Got you there I guess, it's not possible it would need a change of the consitution and that takes 2 parlements, 50% aproval is needed at first, and 70% of the next parlement before it can even be even legal.
Plus it wouldn't pass first chamber anyway.
Tellos Athenaios
07-31-2010, 16:49
Yes it does, No more policy of funded leftist activism will have to do for now, a complete change of attitude on government spendings is going to take longer 10 years or so, when the babyboomers are gone
And no more speculation on property would be a good thing to. Just take that D66 approach and cut those tax breaks (hypotheekrente aftrek) for property owners already. Quarter of the cuts needed, right there; for something that is essentially a highly poisonous apple anyway.
Skullheadhq
07-31-2010, 18:45
And no more speculation on property would be a good thing to. Just take that D66 approach and cut those tax breaks (hypotheekrente aftrek) for property owners already.
That would kill the already feeble house market.
And no more speculation on property would be a good thing to. Just take that D66 approach and cut those tax breaks (hypotheekrente aftrek) for property owners already. Quarter of the cuts needed, right there; for something that is essentially a highly poisonous apple anyway.
Not that it applies for me but the rich are taxed so much that I can call it nothing else than theft-reduction. I apreciate D66 as a local party as it should naturally be, but what's up with the vuvuzuela's in the parlement. There are other ways to give the housing market some air and that is simply cutting state handouts to useless people who run useless foundations and commisions. It are billions of euro's that are freed, it's only hurting the parasites.
Not even to mention a deadlock on immigration, these 20 billion, we got it, takes 3 years not spending it.
In all fairness, the Muslim response to Wilders' letter posted on the last page:
Geert Wilders is becoming a European icon of intolerance, as a peace activist and a pluralist Muslim; I have an interest in understanding the man. What turned him away from becoming a peace maker?
I read every word of his interview without being judgmental and pondering over his quotes from Quraan and his experience with Muslims. He tends to equate the culture with religion, a common fallacy, and most certainly he has read the Hilali Translation of Quraan, which is loaded with hate for Jews, Christians and others from the very fist chapter.
Having an open mind to listen to criticism of Islam from the right wingers like Wilders, gives me the insights to find their motivations and source for such hatred towards Islam. Invariably the source of their fear and hate comes from the mistranslations of Quraan.
His 14 minutes film "Fitna" was based on 14 verses from Quraan - each one of them came from either Hilali or some Neocons who cooked it up. I have written to him, and his response was he did not care about the facts. Here was that article, (http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/muslim-response-to-wilders.html) written two years ago.
(http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/muslim-response-to-wilders.html)
Wilders writes, “Girls are not valued highly in Islam; the Koran says that the birth of a daughter makes a father’s “face darken and he is filled with gloom” (Sura 43:15). Nevertheless, the incident at the Mecca school drew angry reactions. Islam is inhumane; but Muslims are humans, hence capable of Love – that powerful force which Muhammad despised.”
In Summary, when a female child was born in the pre-Islamic era, it was considered a liability and men frowned (even today it is practiced in parts of China and India) and killed the baby girls. Prophet Muhammad banned the practice and considered daughter as blessings from God. Mr. Wilders did not read the Quraan, if he had gone to 43:17, he must have passed thru 43:14 and all the way up to 43:19. Had he read it he would not have said this. He knows it is wrong as was the case in the past, but he is duping the nincompoop Neocons out there.
43:15 (Asad) AND YET, [12] they attribute to Him offspring from among some of the beings created by Him! [13] Verily, most obviously bereft of all gratitude is man!
[12] I.e., despite the fact that most people readily admit that God has created all that exists (verse 9 above), some of them tend to forget His uniqueness [13] a more general meaning, namely, "they attribute a part of His divinity to some of the beings created by Him". However, in view of the sequence, which clearly refers to the blasphemous attribution of "offspring" to God, my rendering seems to be preferable.
43:16 (Asad) Or [do you think], perchance, that out of all His creation He has chosen for Himself daughters, and favored you with sons? [14] –
[14] It should be remembered that the people thus addressed were the pagan Arabs, who believed that some of their goddesses, as well as the angels, were "God’s daughters". In view of the fact that those pre-Islamic Arabs regarded daughters as a mere liability and their birth as a disgrace, this verse is obviously ironical.
43:17 (Asad) For [thus it is:] if any of them is given the glad tiding of [the birth of] what he so readily attributes to the Most Gracious, [15] his face darkens, and he is filled with suppressed anger.
[15] Lit., "what he postulates as a likeness of [or "as likely for"] the Most Gracious": i.e., female offspring, which implies a natural "likeness" to its progenitor.
“Nothing can be compared with Allah” and he gives a false twist to it to suit selling his hate to the simpletons. Indeed, there is nothing like God, he is the creator, sustainer and Nourisher of the world and above all he loves his creation. He is merciful and kind and of course he is, he the creator.
There is a pattern with him, he deliberately misquotes and has a habit of twisting to warm up his supporters.
***
Now coming to some of his other criticism of the shameful event of the school girls burning in Saudi Arabia, every Muslim condemns this and we will continue to condemn such practices. The Saudis kicked God aside and took over the judgment of the people, that is GD shirk . So, if I were in Saudi Arabia, I am not responsible for my sins on the Day of Judgment, because they are taking the responsibility to regulate morality. And of course it is not morality, it is men culture like everywhere in the world where the insecure men find the fake security by making women’s life difficult.
There is some truth in the following statement, “Nevertheless, most Muslims never raise their voice against the radicals. This is the “fearful fatalistic apathy” Churchill referred to.” What Geert does not understand or understands and is simply selling hate is – that is the case with every group with no exception. Let one Jew criticize Israel, they all will pounce on him and eat him alive, where as Muslims does to the backbiting just as the Christians and Hindus will sue each other. The bottom line is all are like that. He is duping again to those gullible followers of his.
Wilders is an evil man and makes his living by selling hate that is all he has. You cannot expect clean water to flow from a sewer. If he had intelligence he would have offered it. Facts don’t matter to him. His followers are so dumb that they don’t check for facts anyways.
If he turns to building peace he will succeed, he has that passion and I wish a change of heart for him.
Mike Ghouse
Ah some Qu'ran interpertations we will just have to take for granted, and eventually we just don't understand them. But reality speaks with a different voice, and it's there for everyone to see.
Ah some Qu'ran interpertations we will just have to take for granted, and eventually we just don't understand them. But reality speaks with a different voice, and it's there for everyone to see.
So why is Wilders allowed to attack Muslims using surahs, and yet Muslims are not allowed to defend themselves from those attacks?
Louis VI the Fat
08-01-2010, 00:58
Muhahaha old :daisy: with your retard of a son and his juntawhore and your 100% loyal leftist lapdogs, you lose. There's going to be tears in hobbyland, good luck paying your houses in 100% white neighbourhoods you useless awareness-gits.Do you mean the coup d'état by the queen / Bilderberg group / the mighty mulitcultural leftist overlords has failed then...?
So it will be a Danish model for the Netherlands? A minority government supported by the rightwing populists.
(Reuters) - Pushing an austerity agenda, two right-leaning Dutch parties agreed Friday to have talks to form a minority government with support from an anti-Islam party five months after the last government collapsed.
The minority government -- a rarity in Dutch politics -- would include the Liberal Party (VVD), which narrowly won June 9 elections after a broader government collapsed over the Afghan military mission, and the Christian Democrats (CDA).
The Freedom Party (PVV), which wants to stop Muslim immigration and ban the Koran in the Netherlands, has agreed to back the minority government in the Dutch parliament, leader Geert Wilders said on Dutch NOS Radio 1.
The Christian Democrats had resisted forming a majority government with the PVV because of its hardline stance on Islam. But Christian Democratic leader Maxime Verhagen said he was convinced the CDA and VVD could reach a pact that would do justice to CDA principles of freedom of religion and education. "At the same time it is possible to come to a stable political cooperation which can have PVV's support," he told Dutch radio.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE66T4M120100730
So why is Wilders allowed to attack Muslims using surahs, and yet Muslims are not allowed to defend themselves from those attacks?
Who's on trial?
@luigi looks like it but she can still put her foot down and just say NEINEINEIN, wonder if the old :daisy: will. But if it isn't now it's soon anyway so here's a happy Frag. Things are going to be much less easy for her retard of a son and his golddigging juntawhore anyway.
Who's on trial?
Islam is, isn't it? Our Dear Leader Living Saint very own Michiel de Ruyter said so, at least
Islam is, isn't it? Our Dear Leader Living Saint very own Michiel de Ruyter said so, at least
In a way, Amsterdam court really was too leftist for their own sake when they decided on this, really stupid move, it's indeed the consequence of the charges that Islam itself is on trial. The corrupt bastards should realise by now that this blatant political prosecution was a big mistake.
That retoric is annoying by the way, just because the leftist church has their satan doesn't mean we have a saint. Or a leader, I didn't even vote on him.
lol http://twitter.com/geertwilderspvv/status/19976245411 Don't laugh too soon Beatrix van Amsberg can still sabotage it all and make the 100% loyal Job president. There are interests at stake $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Hmmmmmm, looks like it's really going to happen, I am going to get my rightwing coalition. I am naturally very pleased and the panic in the leftist camp is getting kinda grotesque, yes mia muca's your state supported comfortable bliss will really be cut dry and you have 1 year to find a real job. Your houses you could never really afford and the prices in higher and middle segments will naturally drop. Boohoohoo good luck living in your precious cultural enrichment. Many going down and only their own arrogance to blame, pesky snobs with their creepy pointing fingers. Unknown territory though we rigtwingers never had a majority in parlement and this much popular support. Interesting times I wasn't really ready for it to happen so soon, expected 10 more years or so.
Revenge is a dish best served cold, we got you you bloodsucking babybooming scum.
Furunculus
08-08-2010, 12:22
lol, should be enetertaining times in hollandia.
lol, should be enetertaining times in hollandia.
Ya, we are talking about billions of euro's not going to the airbenders who make a living out of everyting that is wrong with this country, the countless foundations, the tons of knowologues. Feel free to read it with a Rocharch accent, Camaron is a pussy.
And no this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdaluptBip4 is not art, in any way, ask your friendly local for funds
I love art that is why I collect it, and others can have it for free GAH fu&die
Skullheadhq
08-09-2010, 16:35
Unknown territory though we rigtwingers never had a majority in parlement and this much popular support. Interesting times I wasn't really ready for it to happen so soon, expected 10 more years or so.
Cabinets from WWII onwards.
Rightwing Cabinets: (16)
-Beel II (KVP, ARP, CHU.)
-De Quay (KVP, VVD, ARP, CHU)
-Marijnen (KVP, VVD, ARP, CHU)
-Zijlstra (KVP, ARP)
-De Jong (KVP, VVD, ARP, CHU)
-Biesheuvel I (KVP, VVD, ARP, CHU, DS'70)
-Biesheuvel II (KVP, VVD, ARP, CHU)
-Van Agt I (VVD, CDA*)
-Van Agt III (CDA, D'66)
-Lubbers I (CDA, VVD)
-Lubbers II (CDA, VVD)
-Balkenende I (CDA, VVD, LPF)
-Balkenende II (CDA, VVD, D'66)
-Balkenende III (CDA, VVD)
-Rutte? (VVD, CDA)
Mixed Cabinets: (13)
-Schemerhoorn-Drees (KVP, SDAP, ARP, VDB)
-Beel I (KVP, PvdA)
-Drees-Van Schaik (KVP, PvdA, CHU, VVD)
-Drees I (KVP, PvdA, CHU, VVD)
-Drees II (KVP, PvdA, CHU, ARP)
-Drees III (KVP, PvdA, CHU, VVD)
-Cals (KVP, PvdA, ARP)
-Den Uyl (PvdA, KVP, ARP, PPR, D'66)
-Van Agt II (CDA, PvdA, D'66)
-Lubbers III (CDA, PvdA)
-Paars I (PvdA, VVD, D'66)
-Paars II (PvdA, VVD, D'66)
-Balkenende IV (CDA, PvdA, CU)
Leftwing Cabinets: (0)
-none
*KVP, ARP and CHU merged and formed CDA
** Marked in orange are the cabinets exclusively composed of the parties that want to form the new cabinet
Get your facts together Frag!
I got my facts straight we never had a majority, queen picks who she wants and picks from the leftwing of said party's, the left is on unelected positions, majors, commisioners of the crown, etc. We can now work them out, and we have a mandate. None of these party's are rightwing anyway, just not ultra-leftist. Now things are different, we get a say on who goes where. Verhagen is no van Agt or that creep Aantjes (ex-SS) It's a change of mentality, going to take a while, but the right can start fixing what's broken.
Skullheadhq
08-10-2010, 10:00
The right-wing never had a majority? The right-wing always almost had a majority! We only ever had a majority government and most of them were right wing, read my list above.
PS: There never has been a left-wing majority, ever.
Make that middle and I would agree, what you call rightwing always had a leftist flank, take Dijkstal. LPF was somewhat rightwing, PVV is rightwing, but they are populists first. The policy we want never had a majority. it's pretty clear what we voted for, less immigration, less spending. The left doesn't need a majority they got the queen. Leftist themes were never to be doubted, not anymore.
Skullheadhq
09-03-2010, 19:43
Right Wing formation failed miserably, but it was a good show to watch...
Right Wing formation failed miserably, but it was a good show to watch...
yeah yeah, but we won't need fairytale people next time. The panic of the established political party's and their sorry tricks has opened many eyes and PVV is by far the most powerful party, nobody likes bullies. We will now probably get that serial-failling critical cartoonist arresting Cohen and the hissing hounds from the eco-nostra and dhimmi66. All vuvuzuelas grabbing at straws defending an ideoligy nobody believes in anymore. I bet Bilderbeatricks van Amsberg is pleased with her loyal lapdogs. Licking like Lassie. The dye has been cast, enjoy your commisions/workgroups/foundations/stateTV for just a little while longer.
Skullheadhq
09-04-2010, 10:11
yeah yeah, but we won't need fairytale people next time. .
Keep on dreaming, keep on dreaming...
Keep on dreaming, keep on dreaming...
Was too much to ask for at the time, maybe it's for the better for now I can wait time is all I need. The multicultural ideal is dead no way around it, the devout are seen as relics. That is true for the whole of Europe, the water won't be so cold next time. What is happening in Germany with Sarrazin is very telling, panic. The left responds in their usual way, shooting the messenger with everything they have at their disposal, but who's still buying it, the suffocation that is social control is waning. Nothing changes except the age of the multicultists.
lol I forgive him that he stole my insult, 'licklackey'.. yeah, like Lassie, he misses not an inch to please her majesty he licks that clam clean, thanks the lord for whatever got stuck between his teeth, that faint yoghurt odour penetrating his nostrills as he caresses [url]http://www.parool.nl/parool/nl/508/THEODOR-HOLMAN/article/detail/1005406/2010/09/01/Cartoon.dhtml[/ur
Keep on dreaming, keep on dreaming...
Mornin'
MUHA nananananaaaaaaaaaaaana prffffffffffffft
coffee? maybe something stronger?
Tellos Athenaios
10-02-2010, 10:54
I'm not happy with the result. It's not the coalition which bothers me, although they're going to pull stupid crap to appease Wilders. It's that they've pandered to the traditional VVD cop-out of “answers? policy? we don't know what you mean... but in the meantime let's make government "more efficient"”. It's never worked, and it never will. It's a cop out to dodge the bullet on stuff like hypotheekrenteaftrek and they know full well they're leaving a €7bn hole and accumulating for us to clean up after them. Oh and while they're at it they like to push through a few more hare brained schemes which don't solve anything. (More money on roads. Yeah, except our railways are anything from between brand new to 50-70s old long past sell-by date gear. Less money on education even though that creates the crown jewels of our economy and long term growth. And I have little doubt they're going to piss off the Germans even more about the EU which is a stupid thing to do for us as we live off the Germans collective hunger for goods made all the more easy thanks to the EU.)
Please, let the next cabinet feature the D66 (who seem to be the most genuinely willing to kill it) and shove that fiscal responsibility rod right through the collective backsides of the “fiscal responsible right”. Pretty please?
Maybe D66 would have to feature D66 first, good thing for D66 that Alexander the Great is a man of his word and will migrate to that mythological place called 'not here'.
Tellos Athenaios
10-02-2010, 11:20
Well I agree that D66 has been in “if only” mode for somewhat too long. Need to get their act together especially on the province/municipality levels, but the Province elections might be a good starting point to achieve that.
Achieve what for what exactly, which act in what play. Kinda hilarious when Alexander the Great points out something doesn't please Beatrix van Amsberg. Why was D66 founded in the first place, licking like Lassie
edit, Merkel why don't you put your chemistry degree to the test in the kitchen.
Nice speech Geertjuh http://www.pvv.nl/index.php/component/content/article/36-geert-wilders/3586-speech-geert-wilders-berlijn.html
Dan maar ik afgemaakt http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/285151/a26c60dc/dit_land_is_het_zat._c_est_ca.html
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