Israel kills to Maintain Blockade [Archive] - Page 2

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rory_20_uk

06-02-2010, 16:03

Well... Have you considered the danger of Hamas creating glider borne spice bombs out of A4 paper, Cardamom, cumin, sage, coriander and ginger?

Honestly, the "Middle east question" fills me with such profound sadness. Israels' skill and aptitude for doing whatever the hell it likes is as upsetting as the idea of Jews being "pushed into the sea".

Removed by picky moderator.

~:smoking:

Banquo's Ghost

06-02-2010, 16:07

Does Israel fear an invasion of a Palestine army, armed to the teeth with size A4 paper and dried fruit?

Fruit can be really nasty.

Well, you see, Andres, back in my day when the prerequisite of a British campaign was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns -- even spears made us think twice. The kind of people we liked to fight were two feet tall and armed with dry grass.

For example, Mboto Gorge was a bit of a nasty one -- ten thousand Watusi warriors armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and guava halves. After the battle, instead of taking prisoners, we simply made a huge fruit salad. No, when I joined up, I never imagined anything as awful as this war.

I'd had fifteen years of military experience, perfecting the art of ordering a pink gin and saying "Do you do it doggy-doggy?" in Lebanese, and then suddenly four-and-a-half million heavily armed Syrians hoved into view. That was a shock, I can tell you.

rory_20_uk

06-02-2010, 16:08

Black adder goes forth.

~:smoking:

gaelic cowboy

06-02-2010, 16:13

Fruit can be really nasty.

Well, you see, Andres, back in my day when the prerequisite of a British campaign was that the enemy should under no circumstances carry guns -- even spears made us think twice. The kind of people we liked to fight were two feet tall and armed with dry grass.

For example, Mboto Gorge was a bit of a nasty one -- ten thousand Watusi warriors armed to the teeth with kiwi fruit and guava halves. After the battle, instead of taking prisoners, we simply made a huge fruit salad. No, when I joined up, I never imagined anything as awful as this war.

I'd had fifteen years of military experience, perfecting the art of ordering a pink gin and saying "Do you do it doggy-doggy?" in Lebanese, and then suddenly four-and-a-half million heavily armed Syrians hoved into view. That was a shock, I can tell you.

yes as I recall it was a particularly sharp mango

Louis VI the Fat

06-02-2010, 18:36

So, this blockade is defended by some of you because it is entirely justified to ban dangerous weapons like dried fruit, fresh meat, size A4 paper and fishing rods?

Does Israel fear an invasion of a Palestine army, armed to the teeth with size A4 paper and dried fruit?Below a partial list of restricted items during the blockade of former Yugoslavia, including guidelines for inspecting inward shipping towards Yugoslavia, as was militarily enforced amongst others by the state of Belgium:

9. Decides, acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, in order to ensure that commodites and products transshipped through the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) are not diverted in violation of resolution 757 (1992) , to prohibit the transshipment of crude oil, petroleum products, coal, energy-related equipment, iron, steel, other metals, chemicals, rubber, tyres, vehicles, aircraft and motors of all types unless such transshipment is specifically authorized on a case-by-case basis by the Committee established by resolution 724 (1991) under its no-objection procedure;

10. Further decides, acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations, that any vessel in which a majority or controlling interest is held by a person or undertaking in or operating from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) shall be considered, for the purpose of implementation of the relevant resolutions of the Security Council, a vessel of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) regardless of the flag under which the vessel sails;

11. Calls upon all States to take all necessary steps to ensure that none of their exports are diverted to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) in violation of resolution 757 (1992) ;

12. Acting under Chapters VII and VIII of the Charter of the United Nations, calls upon States, acting nationally or through regional agencies or arrangements, to use such measures commensurate with the specific circumstances as may be necessary under the authority of the Security Council to halt all inward and outward maritime shipping in order to inspect and verify their cargoes and destinations and to ensure strict implementation of the provisions of resolutions 713 (1991) and 757 (1992) ;

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/3b00f16634.html

Or, technical lists can look very unreasonable, as does the boarding of ships of third parties.

Also, rather than comparisons with piracy in Somalia, Israel's actions are better compared to the legal basis, instruments, and deployment of force that, for example, our democracies used as little ago as last decade.

al Roumi

06-02-2010, 19:18

Removed by picky moderator.

~:smoking:

What? Surely that was unneccessary? His comment was very witty. It was no worse than the moralistic hogwash in my post!

Andres

06-02-2010, 19:42

Below a partial list of restricted items during the blockade of former Yugoslavia, including guidelines for inspecting inward shipping towards Yugoslavia, as was militarily enforced amongst others by the state of Belgium:

a) that list is in no way comparable with the sillyness of the other list;
b) Belgium was working under UN mandate;
c) the way your quote is phrased, is vague enough and allows for a lenient application whereas the other lists clearly says "prohibited items", the only exception being when the items are destined for use by international organisations; which is far more strict than what you quote;
d) you quoted just a small part of that resolution; the resolution is much broader than just that;
e) off topic and completely irrelevant to the case at hand;
f) "hey, but you did something similar!" = 1) incorrect (see a) to d); 2) schoolyard rhetoric ("But the other kid did it too! So that makes my behaviour good! Boohoohoo!")

So, that leaves the question: what's your point, exactly? Or are we out of reasonable and relevant arguments? What's the next nonsensic thing you'll come up with? That I have to shut up because Belgium did nasty things to Congo in 1910?

Louis VI the Fat

06-02-2010, 21:13

You are charged with the following:

A
B
C
D
E
F

I summon you to court Monday 15th, July 2010.Is...is, is this what it feels like to be a at the receiving end of a letter from Andres the merciless lawyer? :hide:

what's your point, exactly? The sole point is the same that I made in several previous posts: it is an excruciatingly complicated world, with many different truths and considerations.

What is pettiness when viewed from one angle, becomes a necessity when seen from another. International law, blockades, the status of Gaza, of Israel - all are in much dispute, legally and politically.

Rhyfelwyr

06-02-2010, 23:16

So, this blockade is defended by some of you because it is entirely justified to ban dangerous weapons like dried fruit, fresh meat, size A4 paper and fishing rods?

You could just as easily ask why they are letting anything to to them at all.

Seamus Fermanagh

06-02-2010, 23:18

You could just as easily ask why they are letting anything to to them at all.

That too is a valid question. I already suggested above that the current blockade effort is either way too much or way too little.

Rhyfelwyr

06-02-2010, 23:23

That too is a valid question. I already suggested above that the current blockade effort is either way too much or way too little.

I should point out... I don't believe that the blockade is right, I'm not meaning to advocate a fuller blockade. But in a way, Israel would have a fair point in going ahead with one given the stance of Hamas towards them.

It's all very well to talk about international law and what not, but in reality things like that emerge because we live in a more peaceful world... they don't create it. Sure we can sit here in the west having genocided our way to becoming the homogenous, stable countries we are today, but the fact is there is still ethnic conflict going on in the rest of the world and these things are never resolved entirely peacefully.

Brenus

06-02-2010, 23:33

Situation is:
Israel says the boats are full of dangerous terrorists with loads of weapons so they have to stop them.
To intercept these armed and dangerous terrorists they drop (roped) few men on board.
Then they are surprise that the dangerous terrorist attack them.
When overwhelm by the dangerous terrorist and their powerful weapons of selective destruction instead to withdraw and regroup (jumping in the water) they just killed the dangerous terrorists with no casualties from their side…
Having a little bit of armed conflict and army thingies, I think this full of …. flower soil.
If you drop men on a boat and the opposition is armed, they are slaughtered. No match, just a like in an exercise.
Israel telling the laws is even funnier in a way.

Israel is arrogant and chose the way of the force, as they know they will go away with it. They are drunk of power, and always privilege the coup de force, from colonies to grabbing lands, construction of the wall and destruction without any remorse of all Palestinian property and invading neighbours.

I was a supporter of Israel… What did they do with the dream? What did happened to the members or the heir of the Hagannah, Irgun and Stern, the survivors of Warsaw Ghetto? Where did they lose their souls? The hero of Entebbe become a sad and sinister clown unable to see a blunder…

They refuse any concession to the Palestinian Authority, and complain about Hamas. They created Hamas, at the first place. As the US created the Mudjahidin and Al Quaida, the doctor Frankenstein after the last electricity spell in his creature lost control on it…
But instead to choose the right policy, they just gave Hamas the image of the one defending the Palestinian honour at least, as the moderate Fatah received nothing for its involvement in peace talks…

Jolt

06-02-2010, 23:48

EDIT: Removed hotlinked picture. Please host pictures yourself. BG

:D

Rhyfelwyr

06-02-2010, 23:49

Israel is arrogant and chose the way of the force

Sadly it seems like it wasn't with them...

HoreTore

06-03-2010, 00:01

Seamus Fermanagh

06-03-2010, 03:38

There are protocols and procedures to follow when bording a ship. These are not created by hippies high on pot, they are created by seasoned captains who have personal experience on the field, and who recognize that panic and confusion is NOT what one wants when sending a small team in amongst a large crew, not for any of the sides.

If Israel had followed these procuderes, this operation would've been ordered and calm. There would be no confusion, no panic, no casaulties.

Instead, they chose to disregard all the accumulated wisdom and do it cowboy-style. Whether that's because of ignorance, malice or incompetence, I have no idea.

Have to agree. Regardless of your views on the blockade, the choice to board, the location of the interception, etc., this will NOT go down in the annals of tactical brilliance -- though I suspect it will be a teachable moment for all involved in that line of work.

Ironside

06-03-2010, 09:32

Have to agree. Regardless of your views on the blockade, the choice to board, the location of the interception, etc., this will NOT go down in the annals of tactical brilliance -- though I suspect it will be a teachable moment for all involved in that line of work.

It gets better, appearently the first boarding attempt from boats was stopped by the crowd with water hoses, stun granades, boxes of plates and with the bars showing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24

After the crowd is showing clear signs of being riot level hostile, you decide that airdropping one and one into the hostile crowd is a good idea. Someone really messed up there, but then they messed up from the start as well.

There's also eyewitness reports of shooting live rounds before the airdrop, several of the killed was killed by headshots and several of the dead being journalists.

Furunculus

06-03-2010, 09:42

I should point out... I don't believe that the blockade is right, I'm not meaning to advocate a fuller blockade. But in a way, Israel would have a fair point in going ahead with one given the stance of Hamas towards them.

It's all very well to talk about international law and what not, but in reality things like that emerge because we live in a more peaceful world... they don't create it. Sure we can sit here in the west having genocided our way to becoming the homogenous, stable countries we are today, but the fact is there is still ethnic conflict going on in the rest of the world and these things are never resolved entirely peacefully.

excellent post.

and Seumus's too.

Hosakawa Tito

06-03-2010, 10:50

Was Israel the only government enforcing the blockade?

Ibn-Khaldun

06-03-2010, 10:50

Israel is arrogant and chose the way of the force
Sadly it seems like it wasn't with them...

Dark side I feel in them.. Sith they must be..

Subotan

06-03-2010, 10:59

Instead, they chose to disregard all the accumulated wisdom and do it cowboy-style. Whether that's because of ignorance, malice or incompetence, I have no idea.
Maybe it was all three :curtain:

It gets better, appearently the first boarding attempt from boats was stopped by the crowd with water hoses, stun granades, boxes of plates and with the bars showing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24
They've got plates? And HOSES? OPEN FIRE! :laugh4:

PanzerJaeger

06-03-2010, 12:30

They've got plates? And HOSES? OPEN FIRE! :laugh4:

The whole incident is just so ridiculous. From the Israelis riding down one at a time and getting pelted with God knows what to the activists armed with plates and throwing people overboard, it would all be hilarious if nobody got killed. I was waiting for....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg

Beskar

06-03-2010, 12:42

The whole incident is just so ridiculous. From the Israelis riding down one at a time and getting pelted with God knows what to the activists armed with plates and throwing people overboard, it would all be hilarious if nobody got killed. I was waiting for....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg

Being honest, I can really see that working. Benny Hill playing as Israeli soldiers helicopter rope down into a riot crowd, then having that picture Lemur come-up on screen of Roping 101. etc

HoreTore

06-03-2010, 14:13

The whole incident is just so ridiculous. From the Israelis riding down one at a time and getting pelted with God knows what to the activists armed with plates and throwing people overboard

I'm not buying the argument made by Israel and its supporter that the activists were all evil and awful. Pick any demonstration you want, then try dropping police officers one by one down in their midst, while shouting "we're closing you down!".

Who thinks the police won't get attacked in such a situation?

gaelic cowboy

06-03-2010, 14:19

I'm not buying the argument made by Israel and its supporter that the activists were all evil and awful. Pick any demonstration you want, then try dropping police officers one by one down in their midst, while shouting "we're closing you down!".

Who thinks the police won't get attacked in such a situation?

Obviously not everyone was a terrorist I imagine the other boats are full of genuine people but there were plenty whackjobs in amongst them on the Turkish boat fact.

HoreTore

06-03-2010, 14:24

Obviously not everyone was a terrorist I imagine the other boats are full of genuine people but there were plenty whackjobs in amongst them on the Turkish boat fact.

Fact: there are plenty of similar whackjobs in any given demonstration.

Still people do not die in other places.

Furunculus

06-03-2010, 14:39

Fact: there are plenty of similar whackjobs in any given demonstration.

Still people do not die in other places.

in a confined space with no rapid back up available with a mob of people violently attacking the 'interlopers' with iron bars and slingshot fired marbles, people are going to get hurt, and die.

HoreTore

06-03-2010, 14:59

in a confined space with no rapid back up available with a mob of people violently attacking the 'interlopers' with iron bars and slingshot fired marbles, people are going to get hurt, and die.

Indeed!

So why on earth Israel choose this aproach instead of one more suited to avoid hostilities boggles my mind.

Furunculus

06-03-2010, 15:17

Indeed!

So why on earth Israel choose this aproach instead of one more suited to avoid hostilities boggles my mind.

you mean a full assault, with soldiers fast-roping down in groups of six from two separate helicopters, with automatic weapons and authorisation to use them, at the same time as flash-bangs and tear gas are fired onto the deck from accompanying corvettes?

ah yes, i can just see the same group of moralising poseurs screaming at the heavens that once again Israel had demonstrated their inhumane disregard for proprieties by responding with heavy handed military action when all that was required was sweet reason.

they fastroped in one-by-one, equipped with paintball guns because they did not want to escalate an already volatile situation. they cocked it up, because they didn't anticipate a mob wielding iron-bars as a greeting party, and the sad result was more extreme force had to be employed to pacify the 'peace' activists.

without perfect knowledge this was a lose-lose situation for israel, which is what the 'peace' activists intended.

Lemur

06-03-2010, 15:21

Furunculus

06-03-2010, 15:34

HoreTore

06-03-2010, 15:46

you mean a full assault, with soldiers fast-roping down in groups of six from two separate helicopters, with automatic weapons and authorisation to use them, at the same time as flash-bangs and tear gas are fired onto the deck from accompanying corvettes?

Yes, why do it like that, when there are proven ways of going about such businesses that is way which will limit the risk to everyone involved.

The Norwegian coast guard does this all the time against Russian fishing ships; you think drunk russian fishermen are happy that some foreigners are about to take their livelyhood away from them? And yet, this goes on all the time, without incident. Because the coast guard follows proper procedure.

Furunculus

06-03-2010, 16:04

Seamus Fermanagh

06-03-2010, 16:32

lol, i really don't think the example compares.

Have to agree with F'unc, Horetore. Your typical vodka-brave Russian fisherman might love an excuse to pop someone in the nose, but probably will not escalate violence beyond that. This convoy had a goodly cadre who were really there as agitators trying to stage an incident. The situation doesn't really compare.

On the other hand, any assessment like that makes the poor tactical procedures used LESS excusable, not more.

Furunculus

06-03-2010, 16:43

more information on our peaceful brotherhood for kindly fraternal relations with oppressed muslims:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7142977.ece

gaelic cowboy

06-03-2010, 16:45

more information on our peaceful brotherhood for kindly fraternal relations with oppressed muslims:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7142977.ece

I herby dub these people MOPE

Most Oppressed People Ever

al Roumi

06-03-2010, 18:22

This morning on the way to work heard Israel's PM making a statement about the whole thing. Apparently the boats were full of people who were going to "encourage terrorism". I am not making this up. Oh, and the boats were breaking a blockade, not bringing supplies. (Not sure how that even parses.) And it was a "hate boat, not a love boat."

I swear to god, I know some cut-rate PR shills who could do this better.

I'm of the opinion that under any conditions, Israel is successfully spinning the argument as long as it focusses on "terrorism". Those are the terms by which it defines the Gaza blockade.

Conversely, the definiting feature of the blockade for those whom are against it is its affect on Gaza's civilians.

As long as Israel steers the discussion away from the human cost of its "pro-active" defense, they have the initiative.

gaelic cowboy

06-03-2010, 18:27

To be honest this blockade is useless anyway has it stopped the rockets or mortars at all, when has a blockade really worked against a determined enemy even Cuba is still here. All this bloskade has done is probably enrich the tunnel diggers anHamas who prob tax all the goods coming through the tunnels.

Ironside

06-03-2010, 19:03

they fastroped in one-by-one, equipped with paintball guns because they did not want to escalate an already volatile situation. they cocked it up, because they didn't anticipate a mob wielding iron-bars as a greeting party, and the sad result was more extreme force had to be employed to pacify the 'peace' activists.

without perfect knowledge this was a lose-lose situation for israel, which is what the 'peace' activists intended.

That's the thing. They had IR cameras on both the surrounding ships and choppers what visibly shows the iron bars at least. People can be seen carrying this at the first boarding attempt at 4:10. The shots seems to been around 20 min later (both by eyewitness reports). The troops are then airdropped into the crowd standing there on the ship. While I agree on that the soldiers probably didn't expect that crowd, the surrounding fleet had that knowledge.

The cock up seems to be so bad that this starts to sound relevant.
"One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation."

Seriously, unless several resignations of the ones responsible for the operation starts to shows up, I'm going to start to consider this as an intentional outcome from the the ones in control of the Israeli part, with the soldiers used as sacrificial lambs. No matter if you find the action justified, it's horribly mishandled.
Combine the operation being authorized outside most of the goverment with it being done just inside the self-proclaimed protection zone. Then we have debatable following of standard procedures, incredable large cock up when boarding a ship with known hostiles and media blackout except on the material showing that the crowd is hostile (in particular when it's obvious that material on the shooting exists).

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

06-03-2010, 19:05

Israel Kills to Maintain Blockade (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm)

Israel of course claims that it was fired on - but of course they will retract this 3 months down the line in a muttering aside by some minister. Just like the white phosphorous attacks in Gaza, etc.

They want to starve out the Palestinians, and they won't tolerate any interference in this plan.

Ummm.... No they not. Did you not see the videos of the Israeli troops being attacked or did you just happen to not mention it here?

Seamus Fermanagh

06-03-2010, 19:16

Ummm.... No they not. Did you not see the videos of the Israeli troops being attacked or did you just happen to not mention it here?

I think his original commentary was more of a reaction to the IDF's "PR style" in previous incidents.

drone

06-03-2010, 20:03

Turkey is now reporting that a US citizen was killed on the boat.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060301931.html?hpid=topnews

JERUSALEM -- A U.S. citizen of Turkish origin was among the nine people killed in a botched Israeli effort to stop a Turkish aid ship from reaching the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, a Turkish official said Thursday.

"It's a Turkish-origin American citizen. We know that," the official said by phone from Turkey, adding that more details were not yet available.

The nine bodies were flown home from Israel to Turkey on Wednesday, along with hundreds of activists, aboard a Turkish plane. Israel was not able to identify the bodies because the dead had no identification on them, Israeli officials said.

The American citizen was identified by the Anatolia news agency as Furkan Dogan, a 19-year-old student. His body had four bullet wounds to the head and one to the chest, the news agency reported.

HoreTore

06-03-2010, 20:30

Have to agree with F'unc, Horetore. Your typical vodka-brave Russian fisherman might love an excuse to pop someone in the nose, but probably will not escalate violence beyond that. This convoy had a goodly cadre who were really there as agitators trying to stage an incident. The situation doesn't really compare.

On the other hand, any assessment like that makes the poor tactical procedures used LESS excusable, not more.

If they had used the procedures used all over the world when boarding a possibly hostile ship, then this would not have happen. Plain and simple. Don't act like ships like this being boarded is a once in a lifetime occurence. That 10 people end up dead in an EPIC FAIL is quite rare, however.

Ibn-Khaldun

06-03-2010, 22:34

Turkey is now reporting that a US citizen was killed on the boat.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060301931.html?hpid=topnews

4 bullet wounds in the head and 1 in the chest? What were the Israelis doing? Practice shooting?
Or were they like:
"You shot him in the head."
"I did? Better make sure he is dead.." (3 shots could be heard..)
That activist must have been some increadibly powerful zomby when it takes 4 bullets to take him down.

I understand if you shoot someone in the leg if you want to stop him. But in the head??

Lemur

06-03-2010, 22:46

It's a little ridiculous that the IDF is releasing nothing but edited, commented, prepared snippets of video. Obviously they have full versions. Obviously they're not going to let anyone see them.

Here's a hard, well-parsed essay that expresses a great deal of what I've been thinking:

Operation Make the World Hate Us (http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/75287/operation-make-the-world-hate-us)

The assault on the 'Mavi Marmara' was wrong, and a gift to Israel's enemies.

Israel does not need enemies: it has itself. Or more precisely: it has its government. The Netanyahu-Barak government has somehow found a way to lose the moral high ground, the all-important war for symbols and meanings, to Hamas. That is quite an accomplishment. Operation Make the World Hate Us, it might have been called.

I leave it to others to make the operational criticisms of the Israeli action, and will say only that even my amateurish understanding of the tactical challenge posed by the interdiction of the boats suffices to suggest that there were other ways to do this. I also will not pretend to a perfect grasp of what happened on board the Mavi Marmara. I have pondered the videos that both sides have released, and concluded that the Israeli soldiers sliding down that rope had no intention of attacking the people on board and that the people on board had no way of being confident of this. I cannot expect Palestinians and their supporters to believe the best about the Israeli army. (This is what Israeli hardliners call “the restoration of deterrence.”) I do not doubt that some of the activists on the ship welcomed a confrontation with Israel, but the Israelis should not have obliged them. In any event, what took place on that deck looks to me like a tragic misunderstanding. Yet there was no reason to think that anything else would have transpired.

The important point is that the killing of civilians on the Mavi Marmara—I understand that they were “armed” with metal bars and a knife, but still they were civilians, and soldiers are trained to respond unlethally to the recklessness of a mob—cannot be extenuated by reference to “asymmetrical warfare” and Israel’s right to defend itself. This was not warfare, at least of the physical sort. Israel was not under attack. A headline in The Washington Post yesterday reported that “Israel says Free Gaza Movement poses threat to Jewish state.” Such a claim is absurd. It is true that the movement has grown in recent years, and is now troublesome to Israel’s policy in Gaza; and it is also true that the Turkish charity that sponsored the “Freedom Flotilla” has ties to Islamicist groups. But this is hardly what Israel likes to call, in the Iranian context, and there quite plausibly, an “existential threat.” The extension of the definition of a security threat to include hostile activities that have little or no bearing upon security is an ominous development.

It is also the inevitable consequence of Benjamin Netanyahu’s cunning pronouncement last year that Israel is now endangered by “the Iran threat, the missile threat, and the threat I call the Goldstone threat.” The equivalence was morally misleading, and therefore dangerous. Ideological warfare is not military warfare. I have studied the entirety of the Goldstone Report, and whereas I do not doubt (and wrote in this magazine in the days before Goldstone) that Operation Cast Lead caused the unjustifiable death of non-combatants, I also do not doubt that the Goldstone Report, which was nastily indifferent to Israel’s security predicament and to the ethical challenges of Israeli self-defense, was an instrument in a broad campaign of delegitimation against Israel—and yet the threat of delegitimation is not like the threat of destruction. It is different in kind. A commando operation is not an appropriate response to an idea. “This was no Love Boat,” Netanyahu said yesterday. “It was a hate boat.” He is right, but so what? The threat of delegitimation is not a military problem and it does not have a military solution. And the attempt to give it a military solution has now had the awful consequence of making the threat still greater. The assault on the Mavi Marmara was a stupid gift to the delegitimators.

You do not have to be a general to grasp these distinctions. In fact, judging by Israel’s recent history, it might help not to be one. But the militarization of the Israeli government’s understanding of Israel’s situation—this has been the most sterile period for diplomacy in all of Israel’s history—is not all that led to the debacle at sea. Rules of military engagement that allow soldiers to fire on political activists (I leave aside the question of their humanitarianism for a moment) may signify something still deeper and even more troubling. It is hard not to conclude from this Israeli action, and also from other Israeli actions in recent years, that the Israeli leadership simply does not care any longer about what anybody thinks. It does not seem to care about what even the United States—its only real friend, even in the choppy era of Obama—thinks. This is not defiance, it is despair. The Israeli leadership seems to have given up any expectation of fairness and sympathy from the world. It is behaving as if it believes, in the manner of the most perilous Jewish pessimism, that the whole world hates the Jews, and that is all there is to it. This is the very opposite of the measured and empirical attitude, the search for strategic opportunity, the enlistment of imagination in the service of ideals and interests, that is required for statecraft.

The complication—the one that deprives anybody who acknowledges it of membership in any of the gangs of commentary—is that there is a partial basis in the actually existing world for a degree of Israeli pessimism. There are leaders, states, organizations, and peoples whose hostility to the Jewish state is irrational and absolute and in some cases murderous. Things are said critically about Israel that wildly burst the bounds of thoughtful criticism. The language in which Israel is described by some governments and international organizations is lurid and grotesque and foul. Anti-Semitic tropes—the conspiracy theory about the Jews, most conspicuously—are regularly encountered in otherwise respectable places. The analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that absolves the Palestinians of any significant role in it is widespread. I do not see how any of this can be denied, or shunted aside, or explained entirely in terms of Israeli behavior. But it is emphatically not the whole picture, except for those Israelis and Jews whose political interests and ideological inclinations prefer it to be the whole picture. For there are forces in Israel, and in its government, that have a use for Jewish hopelessness.

There is a verse in Numbers that Jewish pessimists like to cite: “the people shall dwell alone, and not be reckoned among the nations.” It is Balaam’s divinely inspired description of the Israelites—Balaam, who came to curse and stayed to bless. But I have always regarded it as a curse, this promise of loneliness. I have heard it intoned lachrymosely and proudly—in our time Jewish pride has a disturbingly parasitic relationship with Jewish lachrymosity—all my life. It chills me to the bone. It is a locution for prophets, not prime ministers. The Jews cannot dwell alone. In fact, their history shows that they never did dwell alone. It is not a tale of insularity and isolation. The apartness of the Jews was never a complete secession from their environment. The engagement of the Jews with the world was a matter not only of practical necessity, but also of theological conviction. And not even the darkest and most dire adversity succeeded in driving them entirely into themselves.

When, in the modern era, the Zionists concluded, quite correctly, that the Jews must extract themselves from anti-Semitic societies and establish a society of their own, a sovereign one, in the land of Israel, it was in part to “normalize” them by making them “reckoned among the nations,” and therefore like other nations. Zionism was a reversal of Balaam’s phony blessing. The state was not supposed to be a bunker, even if it had enemies. But Netanyahu is a creature of the bunker. He talks about peace, but not like a man who hungers for it. He takes no steps toward peace except as the consequence of a crisis—a crisis not with the Palestinians but with the Americans. He liturgically intones his warnings, some of them true, about the external dangers facing Israel, and mistakes brutishness for toughness, and offers nothing. He is a gray, muddling, reactive figure. His preferred strategy for his country is: one quiet week after another unto eternity. His problem is that there are not many quiet weeks.

But about those activists: a great deal of bathetic rubbish has been written about them. Insofar as they were bringing food and medicine to Gaza, they were humanitarians; but insofar as they were striking a blow for the government of Gaza, they were anti-humanitarians. A real “Freedom Flotilla” would have sailed for Gaza to liberate it from its rulers. For Hamas stifles Gaza from within even as Israel stifles it from without. It oppresses the Palestininans who live under its sway and has brought them ruin. When did it become progressive to support a theocracy? Consider the case of Henning Mankell, the Swedish writer of thrillers (and the son-in-law of Ingmar Bergman) who was a passenger on one of the boats in the “Freedom Flotilla.” In his youth he took part in anti-Vietnam and anti-apartheid demonstrations, presumably in the spirit of secular reason. For a while he lived in Norway and participated in the activities of a radical Maoist party: let us call that secular unreason. Now he does the work of Hamas and its mullahs. Last year Mankell attended the Palestine Festival of Literature in east Jerusalem—or would have attended it, if the Israeli authorities had not idiotically closed it down. When he returned to Sweden, he wrote that “there is a straight line between Soweto, Sharpeville, and what recently happened [I presume he was referring to the war] in Gaza.” And: “Is it strange that some [Palestinians] in pure desperation, when they cannot see any other way out, decide to become suicide bombers? Not really. Maybe it is strange that there are not more of them.” And: “The state of Israel in its current form has no future. Moreover, those who advocate a two-state solution have not got it right. … The question is whether it will be possible to talk sense into the Israelis in order for them to willingly accept the end of their own apartheid state.” This man has rights, at sea and on land, but he can hardly be lauded as a champion of peace and reconciliation. You are not for co-existence if you advocate the disappearance of one of the terms. (Consider, analogously, the recent adventures of Noam Chomsky in the region. It was widely noted that the Israelis, again idiotically, turned him away at the Allenby Bridge. It was less widely noted that a few days later a reporter for The New York Times accidentally discovered him in Lebanon at the home of Nabil Qaouk, the deputy head of Hezbollah, which is not what Voltaire had in mind.)

And yet the screw must be turned again: the anti-Israeli virulence of Henning Mankell and his maritime comrades does not make Israel’s assault on the Mavi Marmara more just or more wise. Now the Israeli government may find it impossible not to modify or even to lift the blockade of Gaza—an outcome that no decent person can decry, as long as Hamas does not exploit the respite to acquire weapons or what it needs to make them, and the past is not encouraging in this regard. Netanyahu will do what he can to get past the mess, hoping that the approach of the midterm elections in the United States will rescue him from the pressure, and the deadening hand of the status quo will be back. And Israel will be known to more and more people—in a wounding misrepresentation—mainly for cruelty.

Louis VI the Fat

06-03-2010, 23:07

Yes, why do it like that, when there are proven ways of going about such businesses that is way which will limit the risk to everyone involved.

The Norwegian coast guard does this all the time against Russian fishing ships; you think drunk russian fishermen are happy that some foreigners are about to take their livelyhood away from them? And yet, this goes on all the time, without incident. Because the coast guard follows proper procedure.Limit the risk to everyone involved? Proper procedure?

Pft.

The last time Spanish ships were discovered fishing near the coast near Bordeaux, French warships shot live explosives at them then chased them all over the Bay of Biscay. We're not going to board them and run the risk of being asaulted by steel pipes and chorizo sausages. Shoot first, then torpedo then. Let Amnesty International worry about diplomatic consequences. These peacemongering Israelis are such sissies, sheesh.

I think the Spanish send an Armada of sixty ships in retaliation, forcing our fleet of just several dozen ships to retreat, then they blockaded our ports. Bummer. Why weren't our nuclear subs deployed?

Seamus Fermanagh

06-04-2010, 02:57

If they had used the procedures used all over the world when boarding a possibly hostile ship, then this would not have happen. Plain and simple. Don't act like ships like this being boarded is a once in a lifetime occurence. That 10 people end up dead in an EPIC FAIL is quite rare, however.

At what point in my post did I assert or imply that this "stop & board" had no parallel? :inquisitive:

Oh, well.....

HoreTore

06-04-2010, 07:02

chorizo sausages

Like you wouldn't love having a spanish guy running after you with his "chorizo sausage" out..... ~;)

Fragony

06-04-2010, 07:46

Isn't this getting, after the usual moral outrage when jews don't commit suicide for all our sins things once again aren't so simple. The left knows the ships were full of people who want nothing but peace, and it would be absolutely inthinkable that they change their mind because someone would have to do it first it at the risk of losing everything he has, such a loving family as long as you know they are 100% correct.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=21215

Leftist people know it simply isn't true, it isn't what they agreed, but more and more is getting out.

Brenus

06-04-2010, 07:57

Fragony

06-04-2010, 08:12

What? Israel KNEW this boat was full of very armed and dangerous terrorists and they sent few soldiers, one by one on a rope with paint balls riffles and didn't storm the boats with a fully and well trained unit?:inquisitive:
How unprofessional Tsahal became...:laugh4::laugh4:

What a lot of ..... compost.:laugh4:

No they couldn't know that's the point, and as it turns out they were right to board the ship. It naturally isn't going to change TEH TRUTH, But still. peace activists don't have kevlar and night-goggles unless they are extremely peaceful, the Hamas-type of peace

Hax

06-04-2010, 08:35

and as it turns out they were right to board the ship.

I do not regard murdering students on international water as being complient with international law.

Fragony

06-04-2010, 08:45

I do not regard murdering students on international water as being complient with international law.

What murder, people died. And this boarding was very much legal under international law. If a few were in fact peaceful they deserve the Darwin award but not our sympathy. All things considered, it was their aim to breach a blockade to deliver unknown cargo to people Israel is at war with (all destribution is done by Hamas, who ironically refused the cargo)

Subotan

06-04-2010, 08:53

Fragony

06-04-2010, 09:07

In some ways it's like a nautical Boston Massacre. Although in reality, the Colonists hurled abuse at the massively outnumbered British redcoats, and demanded that they fire, the popular perception is one of Imperial Stormtroopers marching in and gunning down everything (Uh, five people) in their path, winning widespread support for the protesters cause.

Who are you and what did you do to Subotan

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=21219

I am surprised they are surprised that leftist europeans who want nothing but peace go berserk when they see jews despite being treated well. They have moral outrage it burns their brains they can't help it, they are rightious and the rest are facists. Happens every time, random attacks, broken windows. The first anti-jewish demonstration that didn't get completely out of hand has yet to be held. Of course they are only against Israel, really. That is why jews get attacked here. Makes sense?

Fragony

06-04-2010, 10:08

MUHA absolutely awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=channel

Sooooooooooooooooo incredibly true

Well done mia muca's, a bursting laugh and a sad tear from Holland.

We'll make the woooooooorld abandon reeeeeeeason

Furunculus

06-04-2010, 11:14

Husar

06-04-2010, 11:59

Fraggles, not everybody here is saying that the people on the ship were peaceful teddybears, a lot of people are young or old and stupid at some point in their lives, if it means they had intercourse 200 of these uhm non-men or what they're called or got drunk every night, passed out twice every weekend and had bar brawls, it's a bragging right, if it means they had some ideals and went on a stupid relief ship and got worked up as a group it means they should be shot just because the israeli navy is too stupid to do a proper boarding operation???
There is such a thing as crowd control, handling procedures etc. in most countries but in Israel the MO seems to be just drop in some men, shoot some people if necessary, if thery clobber your men to death instead, get more men/blow up the entire ship or whatever they would have done next...
Is that really the best they can come up with?

So the next time some ultra-orthodox jews throw stones at other people trying to kill them, will/should the israeli police just shoot these idiots?

Tellos Athenaios

06-04-2010, 12:11

@Fragony: good find.
@Husar: agreed. What's so hard for Israeli navy that at least one half decent police force on the world pulls off in any given week at a local football match? Those hooligans aren't exactly peaceful supporters of their club either.

Furunculus

06-04-2010, 12:15

comparing this event to boarding a fishing vessel in the baltic of a crowd control event in the settlements is a VERY poor show all round.

it is accepted that it was a poorly conducted mission, but -

the 'peace' activists allegedly attempted to bring down the helicopter by attaching the fast-rope to the ship, this meant that the rope had to be cut, leaving the soldiers on the deck with no support and no exit from a mob wielding iron bars.
they were in mortal threat with only one means of surviving; the use of their side-arms. and thus did 'peace' activists die.

talks of people being murdered is rank stupidity and deserves a "Shut Up!"

Fragony

06-04-2010, 12:16

Husar

06-04-2010, 12:30

the 'peace' activists allegedly attempted to bring down the helicopter by attaching the fast-rope to the ship, this meant that the rope had to be cut, leaving the soldiers on the deck with support and no exit from a mob wielding iron bars.
they were in mortal threat with only one means of surviving; the use of their sidearms. and thus did 'peace' activists die.
Why use a helicopter in the first place? Because if they got 50km off the coast before a ship caught up they could have thrown their sticks and chairs onto israeli cities?

talks of people being murdered is rank stupidity and deserves a "STFU!"
They weren't being murdered, there are just people thinking that had the israeli navy not used a helicopter or stopped using a helicopter once they saw an angry mob down there, and then come with a big ship, pointed a few guns in the general direction of the mob, told them to calm down, then boarded the ship properly, this could have been prevented. Had the whole thing then happened in internationally agreed upon israeli territorial waters and the m,ob had still been angry and they had gunned down the whole angry mob, I'd say that's a clear-cut victory for israel and the mob was just stupid, but that's not what happened and I am certainly not to blame for it.

Dear Hussie if everybody hates you no matter what you do, you better be as vicious as is unhumanly possible. Israel isn't, not even remotely. I would have sank each and every one of them, open a bottle of good wine once I got home, and never look back.
Have you ever killed someone? Have you ever done something stupid?

Tellos Athenaios

06-04-2010, 12:31

comparing this event to boarding a fishing vessel in the baltic of a crowd control event in the settlements is a VERY poor show all round.

it is accepted that it was a poorly conducted mission, but - No it isn't. If the Israeli's had put up a similar performance to crowd-control a bunch of hooligans they'd been attacked with metal bars, knives, and possibly even guns just the same way. If the Israeli's had put up a similar performance on a Russian vessel with a crew seriously pissed off about it that helicopter had probably been brought down because fishing vessels have numerous pieces of equipment to put an end to that sort of nonsense far too quickly for a rope to be cut.

So it's fail on a level that transcends this particular incident. It's fail that's so epic it can be used to define the notion of fail. Do you now see where I'm coming from?

they were in mortal threat with only one means of surviving; the use of their sidearms. and thus did 'peace' activists die.

talks of people being murdered is rank stupidity and deserves a "STFU!"

Obviously. I have not seen a single post condemning the individual soldiers who shot those “activists”, nor have I seen a single post that extolls the idea that the lynching of a few people is an OK thing to do when your ship is being boarded (or otherwise).

Furunculus

06-04-2010, 12:37

you must have missed this one at least then tellos:

I do not regard murdering students on international water as being complient with international law.

Seamus Fermanagh

06-04-2010, 12:44

In some ways it's like a nautical Boston Massacre. Although in reality, the Colonists hurled abuse and ice balls and broken oyster/clam shells and garbage
at the massively outnumbered British redcoats, and demanded that they fire, the popular perception is one of Imperial Stormtroopers marching in and gunning down everything (Uh, five people) in their path, winning widespread support for the protesters cause.Quite true, though I have always been proud of the fact that the soldiers were acquitted. Only the officers were judged as liable for failing to maintain control over their troops. Sam did spin-doctor the incident into a major hoopla that truly did motivate people to work against England. I am pretty certain that that is one component of the current incident as well.

Fragony

06-04-2010, 12:46

Have you ever killed someone?

No but I most certainly will if I have to, hopefully. For a country like Israel there is kinda more at stake than our salonfahige aproval stamp.

Louis VI the Fat

06-04-2010, 12:49

Fraggles, not everybody here is saying that the people on the ship were peaceful teddybears, a lot of people are young or old and stupid at some point in their lives,

if it means they had some ideals and went on a stupid relief ship and got worked up as a group it means they should be shot just because the israeli navy is too stupid to do a proper boarding operation???

There is such a thing as crowd control, handling procedures etc. in most countries but in Israel the MO seems to be just drop in some men, shoot some people

Is that really the best they can come up with?

So the next time some ultra-orthodox jews throw stones at other people trying to kill them, will/should the israeli police just shoot these idiots?:love:

Seamus Fermanagh

06-04-2010, 12:53

Dear Hussie if everybody hates you no matter what you do, you better be as vicious as is unhumanly possible. Israel isn't, not even remotely. I would have sank each and every one of them, open a bottle of good wine once I got home, and never look back.

Then I am sad for you, sir, very sad and will pray for the easing of your anger.

My previous pastor discussed this in a homily at the time of the Iraqi invasion. Taking a measure of satisfaction from defending your country or from the success of those defending your nation against a threat is appropriate -- as is thankfulness for the harms thereby prevented as well. But taking joy in such an event? That is a harm against your own soul and a discredit to the humanity of those who were harmed.

One should do what is needful, not revel in it.

Tellos Athenaios

06-04-2010, 13:00

Fragony certainly has done something stupid in my book when he wrote:

Dear Hussie if everybody hates you no matter what you do, you better be as vicious as is unhumanly possible. Israel isn't, not even remotely. I would have sank each and every one of them, open a bottle of good wine once I got home, and never look back.

You got to live in the wrong society. It's obvious: Hamas needs you. Black Widows need you (they have jobs for male hostage takers too). Just apply, they probably have a job description: “Urgent need someone without compunction, screw 'em type approach: doesn't care how many we kill. Working hours and pay rates on request. We regret that all work is undertaken at applicant's own risk.”. Maybe the lovelies from Al Qaeda or Taliban would like to have you too. Or FARC, or the Columbian para-military militia-type terror cells (they do unto the FARC and people they don't like what the FARC does unto them and people the FARC doesn't like) if you think the FARC is too lefty for your liking.

You don't agree? Those are organizations that work exactly as you describe and stem from exactly the same type of reasoning: everyone hates us anyway, so let's just kill everyone who gets in our way.

@Furunculus: Yes. Bit weird because I thought it kind of settled that the real troublemakers clearly were not students or event “activists”. Agitators at best, and according to Fragony's link mercenaries at worst.

Fragony

06-04-2010, 13:14

You are looking for reason, but there's only hate. In such an irrational world it's better to be feared then to be liked. There will never be peace, don't have to like it.

edit that sounds much more hostile then I am, I would never harm anyone. But it's simply an undeniable truth that the destruction of Israel is their goal, they don't even lie about that. Checkpoints & walls, big deal, what else? A state? They don't even want a state BECAUSE of international law. And do you guys seriously think it woul be allowed, it's a political goldmine for other nations, at least they are pissed at somebody else.

Lemur

06-04-2010, 15:05

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=21215

Leftist people know it simply isn't true, it isn't what they agreed, but more and more is getting out.
I'm not ready to speak for this monolithic "the left" that you keep having arguments with, but I'm willing to inject some objective reality. The news release from the IDF which you link to was redacted. Yesterday. Long before you re-posted it. So either you are willfully misleading everyone, or you aren't staying up on the issue. Some details (http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/under-scrutiny-idf-retracts-claims-about-flotillas-al-qaeda-links/):

Israel-based freelance reporter Lia Tarachansky and I called the IDF press office to ask for more conclusive evidence. Tarachansky reached the IDF’s Israel desk, interviewing a spokesperson in Hebrew; I spoke with the North America desk, using English. We both received the same reply from Army spokespeople: “We don’t have any evidence. The press release was based on information from the [Israeli] National Security Council.” (The Israeli National Security Council is Netanyahu’s kitchen cabinet of advisors).

Today, the Israeli Army’s press office changed the headline of its press release (see below), basically retracting its claim about the flotilla’s Al Qaeda links. The new headline (http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/today/10/06/0201.htm) reads: “Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found Without Identification Papers” (the top of the browser screen still contains the original headline about Al Qaeda). The more Israel’s claims about the flotilla’s terrorist links are challenged, the more they fall apart.

Fragony

06-04-2010, 15:10

Nope I didn't catch up on that one, still a lot of meanies though even without them

Husar

06-04-2010, 15:41

No but I most certainly will if I have to, hopefully. For a country like Israel there is kinda more at stake than our salonfahige aproval stamp.

[...] I would never harm anyone.

You see, that's why, when I try to explain what I think, it usually becomes a long post, because what we do is so very context-sensitive it's really hard to say, there are a few guidelines but sometimes they go right out the window the moment that situation comes along.
And you may want to explain how that particular convoy threatened the existence of Israel? If they found a big stash of RPGs or nukes in the convoy, why hasn't that made the headlines yet?

gaelic cowboy

06-04-2010, 15:49

One things for sure the next flotilla will probably have over a 100 boats in it, after that the blockade will be lifted and a proper procedure for inspecting boats in the ports of Gaza will be implemented.

Fragony

06-04-2010, 16:31

Fragony

06-04-2010, 16:35

Seamus Fermanagh

06-04-2010, 18:41

You see, that's why, when I try to explain what I think, it usually becomes a long post, because what we do is so very context-sensitive it's really hard to say, there are a few guidelines but sometimes they go right out the window the moment that situation comes along.
And you may want to explain how that particular convoy threatened the existence of Israel? If they found a big stash of RPGs or nukes in the convoy, why hasn't that made the headlines yet?

Oh come on, Husar. You know darned well that this particular convoy was kitted out as clean as the driven snow in terms of cargo. The group organizing this fomented an incident and they wanted Israel to look like a bunch of jerks when they were stopped. Doesn't mean that previous or subsequent supply efforts won't -- only that this one was a set-up.

Between sloppy procedures and a cargo made for TV, the Israelis have obligingly pulled it out and stepped on it again -- with the golf cleats. Somewhere in Gaza, they're probably still exchanging toasts like: "To the IDF, what a bunch of predictable maroons...."

Brenus

06-04-2010, 19:00

“peace activists don't have kevlar” Er, I had in Bosnia, as Humanitarian. When you go in a danger zone, you don,t count ONLY on your good will and intention as protection. I even built a bunker in Yemen (not by my own, mind you)…

“And this boarding was very much legal under international law”. If you except the fact that the blocus itself isn’t legal, of course.

“the 'peace' activists allegedly attempted to bring down the helicopter by attaching the fast-rope to the ship, this meant that the rope had to be cut, leaving the soldiers on the deck with no support and no exit from a mob wielding iron bars.”
Do you relly believe in this? Do you really believe that you can put down an helicoptere with a rope? Did you try to board an helicoptere and experiment the wind?
Well, the soldiers have just to jump over board, then being rescued by the helicopter. Lost of dignity, but not life.
Then the Navy would have come and in case, would have done like all more or less normal navies do in this kind of situation…

Fragony

06-04-2010, 19:27

I would make a fool out of me if I questioned your judgement. you are a pro. But they were looking for confrontation that is the political phere.

HoreTore

06-04-2010, 19:33

I would make a fool out of me if I questioned your judgement. you are a pro. But they were looking for confrontation that is the political phere.

So is every other demonstrator.

Yet they never die on the streets of London, Berlin or Copenhagen.

Furunculus

06-04-2010, 19:47

“the 'peace' activists allegedly attempted to bring down the helicopter by attaching the fast-rope to the ship, this meant that the rope had to be cut, leaving the soldiers on the deck with no support and no exit from a mob wielding iron bars.”
Do you relly believe in this? Do you really believe that you can put down an helicoptere with a rope? Did you try to board an helicoptere and experiment the wind?
Well, the soldiers have just to jump over board, then being rescued by the helicopter. Lost of dignity, but not life.
Then the Navy would have come and in case, would have done like all more or less normal navies do in this kind of situation…
i said "allegedly" because i have only read it from one source.

however, if it did happen, then don't try to tell me that 'mooring' a helicopter to a ship at night, which is moving at 15 knots, and captained by hostile forces is anything but an existential threat to both the helicopter, its crew, and the boarding party that depend on it for exfiltration. it also represents a mortal threat to the crew of the ship, but frankly they aren't my first concern.

because to make such an assertion would be ridiculous!

HoreTore

06-04-2010, 19:49

i said "allegedly" because i have only read it from one source.

however, if it did happen, then don't try to tell me that 'mooring' a helicopter to a ship at night, which is moving at 15 knots, and captained by hostile forces is anything but an existential threat to both the helicopter, its crew, and the boarding party that depend on it for exfiltration. it also represents a mortal threat to the crew of the ship, but frankly they aren't my first concern.

because to make such an assertion would be ridiculous!

.....Hence why boarding ships is usually carried out by the Navy, using ships.

Furunculus

06-04-2010, 20:18

.....Hence why boarding ships is usually carried out by the Navy, using ships.

lovely point, but does nothing to address why i made mine:

"Do you relly believe in this? Do you really believe that you can put down an helicoptere with a rope? Did you try to board an helicoptere and experiment the wind?"

HoreTore

06-04-2010, 20:25

lovely point, but does nothing to address why i made mine:

"Do you relly believe in this? Do you really believe that you can put down an helicoptere with a rope? Did you try to board an helicoptere and experiment the wind?"

My point is that Israel failed in just about everything during this mission. Everything they did should've been done in a different way.

Quite a feat, actually. It'll be some time before someone tops this shining example of retardation.

...at least until 2013, should the progress party get elected to office here in norway.... then this screw-up will look like a success.

Brenus

06-04-2010, 21:27

“lovely point, but does nothing to address why I made mine”: Do you think is a real thing? Do you think you can grab a rope coming from a helicopter, make a knot (somewhere?) and over speed an helicopter with a boat, this of course, without the helicopter crew noticing…
“because to make such an assertion would be ridiculous!”

Husar

06-04-2010, 22:35

Besides finding 6 tons of weaponry last time?
That was last time as you say, this time there weren't any, usually that's what you find out before shooting/arresting people.
If you're some kind of professional police force that is.

Oh come on, Husar. You know darned well that this particular convoy was kitted out as clean as the driven snow in terms of cargo. The group organizing this fomented an incident and they wanted Israel to look like a bunch of jerks when they were stopped. Doesn't mean that previous or subsequent supply efforts won't -- only that this one was a set-up.

Between sloppy procedures and a cargo made for TV, the Israelis have obligingly pulled it out and stepped on it again -- with the golf cleats. Somewhere in Gaza, they're probably still exchanging toasts like: "To the IDF, what a bunch of predictable maroons...."
I cannot come on as I didn't know these convoys even existed before I read this thread, I don't follow any "peace activist" or israeli news twitters or anything like that.
If the Israelis stepped into a trap then it's their own fault for having those sloppy procedures you mention.
Had they conducted a proper boarding and search operation and found nothing illegal, this would probably not even have made the news. Had they killed 9 people under very different circumstances, like I described above, then I would have defended them, but they didn't, they dropped some men one-by-one into an angry mob with blunt objects and then said it was self-defense after they shot 9 people. Is it really self-defense if you run straight into the knife in the first place?

aimlesswanderer

06-05-2010, 06:52

What astounds me is this. Is Israel a country which desperately needs all the friends, allies and goodwill it can possibly get? I'd say yes, absolutely, perhaps more so than any other country in the world. After all, Israel is petrified about Iran's nuclear ambitions, and would probably want to bomb their nuclear facilities, for which they'd need all the help, goodwill, support and cover that they can get. Or, even before that, they want to put as much pressure on Iran as possible diplomatically at the UN. Now the agenda has changed from Iran's nuclear ambitions to the suffering in Gaza.

If I was the Israeli PM I'd think it was imperative that I not do things which piss off the world at large for extremely small "gains".

Actions included in this category to be avoided like the plague would include:

- not to fake your "friends" passports (eg Aust, UK, Germany etc) and murder someone (bad guy that he was, assassination is not a good look for a democratic country) and thus get wall to wall bad publicity, and diplomats expelled from countries you call your "friends".

- attacking a seaborne convoy of activists (not all with non violent motives, but armed with only chairs and blunt objects) who are attempting to circumvent your illegal, collective punishment blockade of the world's largest open air prison resulting in 10 deaths (inc those shot in the head) in international waters. Cue enormous bad publicity, demonstrations, and so on.

The current Israeli PM seems very fond of using the military and intelligence agencies to "fix" problems, which, as can be seen in this case, and have before (eg failed assassination attempt in Amman during previous term in office), just made things worse. In fact, the fact that they just keep making their own situation even worse is utterly bizarre. It would be almost comical if it wasn't such an important issue.

HoreTore

06-05-2010, 08:23

Fragony

06-05-2010, 10:20

That was last time as you say, this time there weren't any,

And how are they supposed to know. I do agree it was clumsy, it was stupid to consider the possibity there were people who actually want nothing but peace. Clear the deck with a watercannon next time, would have just as bad pr though when people who want nothing but peace look like wet cats. The usual suspects will be just as rightiously outraged and overtaken with grief. Like the kid that keeps pinching and runs to teacher crying hysterically when he finally gets a punch. Here there would be the same demonstrations, that become riots, and they will squeel like pigs when they are arrested.

Subotan

06-05-2010, 11:04

The IDF has boarded the Rachel Corrie (http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/israeli-soldiers-board-mv-rachel-corrie-460528.html)

Beskar

06-05-2010, 11:28

The Ship is advertising the Org on the side of it. Did our lord and master TosaInu decide to get involved?

Fragony

06-05-2010, 11:36

If Tosa would chose to get involved there would be peace, his pressence alone would leave all in awe

Jolt

06-05-2010, 12:20

What murder, people died. And this boarding was very much legal under international law.

First, this comes from the same person who said "Rules be damned. This is survival.", therefore excluding yourself from making any viable point concerning to International Law.
Second, if you go read previous posts, you'll see ample arguments as to why the whole operation is in fact illegal in its whole width. Saying "Oh, it's very much legal", isn't really an argument, and doesn't make it legal. If anything, it makes people laugh at your simplicity and partizanship.

Seamus Fermanagh

06-05-2010, 12:41

The IDF has boarded the Rachel Corrie (http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/israeli-soldiers-board-mv-rachel-corrie-460528.html)

Well, apparently the protocols/procedures for the stoppage were applied correctly this time.

Fragony:

The interception distance chosen in the incident of several days ago was clearly chosen by the Israelis to remind all involved that Israel has imposed a 68km security zone. They made the interception just inside that distance. Most of the rest of the international community does not accept the validity of that security zone and views the point of interception as international waters.

Separately and additionally, most of the rest of the international community wants the blockade ended as of 8 months ago. They believe it to have stopped only a limited number of weapons etc., but to have severely hampered life in Gaza and to have caused needless deaths. The international community is just not willing to shoot Israelis in order to end the blockade.

Husar

06-05-2010, 13:39

And how are they supposed to know. I do agree it was clumsy, it was stupid to consider the possibity there were people who actually want nothing but peace. Clear the deck with a watercannon next time, would have just as bad pr though when people who want nothing but peace look like wet cats. The usual suspects will be just as rightiously outraged and overtaken with grief. Like the kid that keeps pinching and runs to teacher crying hysterically when he finally gets a punch. Here there would be the same demonstrations, that become riots, and they will squeel like pigs when they are arrested.
They find out by searching the ship after boarding it in a proper way, which, unless there is armed(arms do usually not include chairs) resistance, is usually not a process during which people die. The water cannon is actually a good idea and one used by police forces around the world, apparently it even saved some ships from getting boarded by pirates (who usually have more dangerous weapons than chairs). The only people who get upset at water cannons are the ones who hate the police/government anyway, the advantages are you don't annoy everybody else as well and nobody dies.

The Ship is advertising the Org on the side of it. Did our lord and master TosaInu decide to get involved?
I would think Tribesman, although in that case it'd be a wonder that Israel managed to board the ship at all. ~;)

Furunculus

06-05-2010, 20:22

Second, if you go read previous posts, you'll see ample arguments as to why the whole operation is in fact illegal in its whole width. Saying "Oh, it's very much legal", isn't really an argument, and doesn't make it legal. If anything, it makes people laugh at your simplicity and partizanship.

i see lots of evidence of why YOU think it is illegal, the israelies are obviously quite certain that the Gaza-Jericho agreement allows them to impose a blockade on those waters, and the San Remo declaration allows them to stop blockade runners.

this is of course contentious, but that does not in any way negate israel's belief that they were able to do this.

What astounds me is this. Is Israel a country which desperately needs all the friends, allies and goodwill it can possibly get? I'd say yes, absolutely, perhaps more so than any other country in the world. After all, Israel is petrified about Iran's nuclear ambitions, and would probably want to bomb their nuclear facilities, for which they'd need all the help, goodwill, support and cover that they can get. Or, even before that, they want to put as much pressure on Iran as possible diplomatically at the UN. Now the agenda has changed from Iran's nuclear ambitions to the suffering in Gaza.

If I was the Israeli PM I'd think it was imperative that I not do things which piss off the world at large for extremely small "gains".

Actions included in this category to be avoided like the plague would include:

- not to fake your "friends" passports (eg Aust, UK, Germany etc) and murder someone (bad guy that he was, assassination is not a good look for a democratic country) and thus get wall to wall bad publicity, and diplomats expelled from countries you call your "friends".

- attacking a seaborne convoy of activists (not all with non violent motives, but armed with only chairs and blunt objects) who are attempting to circumvent your illegal, collective punishment blockade of the world's largest open air prison resulting in 10 deaths (inc those shot in the head) in international waters. Cue enormous bad publicity, demonstrations, and so on.

The current Israeli PM seems very fond of using the military and intelligence agencies to "fix" problems, which, as can be seen in this case, and have before (eg failed assassination attempt in Amman during previous term in office), just made things worse. In fact, the fact that they just keep making their own situation even worse is utterly bizarre. It would be almost comical if it wasn't such an important issue.

very much agreed, as this point points out most tellingly:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/charlesmoore/7803919/Why-has-Israel-disarmed-itself-in-the-battle-for-world-opinion.html

The failure, above all, is in what is now called (see last week’s column) “the battle of the narratives”. I am grateful to the latest Joint Doctrine Publication promulgated by our Chiefs of Staff (Security and Stabilisation: The Military Contribution) for two telling quotations. One is from the Principles of War, drawn up by Hezbollah, Hamas’s murderous cousins in the Lebanon. One principle states: ''The media has innumerable guns whose hits are like bullets. Use them in battle.’’ The other is from General Keightley, who commanded the ill-fated British operation in the Suez crisis in 1956. ''The one overriding lesson of the Suez operation,’’ he said, ''is that world opinion is now an absolute principle… and must be treated as such.’’

Israel has fought so long, and usually so well, in real battles, but it seems to have forgotten how to fight in verbal ones.

Jolt

06-06-2010, 02:01

i see lots of evidence of why YOU think it is illegal, the israelies are obviously quite certain that the Gaza-Jericho agreement allows them to impose a blockade on those waters, and the San Remo declaration allows them to stop blockade runners.

Notice, I'm not even disputing whether or not the Gaza-Jericho agreement is invalid under the Article 62 of the Vienna Convention on Treaties, which could easily be used by Palestine.

Gaza-Jericho agreement, article XI, chapter 1, section a, subsection 2, called "Zone L", refers to the area which is not controlled by the Israeli Navy. In paragraph 3 it says that foreign ships may not approach closer than 12 miles, unless in accordance in with paragraph 4, which states if an interdiction is to be made, then Israel must inform the Maritime Coordination and Cooperation Center, which obviously due to what happened shortly after the signing of the treaty, never came to exist (They were also bound to inform and act in accordance with other non-existent bodies, but this example suffices). Because of that, under the article 61 of the same Vienna Convention, which states that a treaty is invalid if the object required for the execution of the treaty disapears (Or in this case, does not exist).

As for the San Remo agreement, it stipulates the blockade rules between two states at war. The blockade would be justifiable under International Law if Israel recognized Hamas as the sovereign power of Gaza. As it does not, the only alternative for justifying it would be that it would also have to be at war with who the International community (And Israel) recognizes as the governing body of Palestine/Gaza, being that the Palestinian Authority-Fatah. Add to that, the fact that there is no international "jurisprudence" for a blockade of a State over a territory which doesn't recognize as sovereign, and yet still executes the blockade (For instance, the US blockade of Cuba is an action by the State of the USA against the State of Cuba, whereas the Israel blockade of Gaza is an action by the State of Israel against Hamas, which is not a State, and therefore not applicable by the San Remo agreement).

LeftEyeNine

06-06-2010, 02:30

Vid:

http://video.ntvmsnbc.com/#ingiliz-sunucu-israil-sozcusunu-terletti.html

Also:

MKs on right slam cabinet for releasing all Turkish activists.

A group of angry Israelis announced on Thursday night that they will leave for Cyprus next week on a flotilla and call for an end to the Turkish occupation of half of the island and its reunification under Cypriot rule.

The group includes Alex Goldfarb, who was an MK in the Tzomet and Yiud parties in the 1990s, and Meretz activist Pinhas Har-Zahav of Modi’in.

An unnamed wealthy Israeli donor is subsidizing the initiative.

MKs on the Right accused the security cabinet on Thursday of buckling under Turkish pressure when it decided to release every Turkish passenger on the Gaza flotilla, even if there was explicit photographic evidence that they attacked IDF soldiers.

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu urged the step in an effort to repair damaged relations with Turkey, and the security cabinet ministers obliged.

The Turkish activists were greeted as heroes when they returned to their country on Thursday. One even boasted that he made an effort to die as a martyr but was unsuccessful.

“I understand Netanyahu’s desire to minimize damage, but I cannot understand the betrayal of the soldiers who see the terrorists who shot at them and stabbed them leaving the country without trial,” National Union MK Arye Eldad said. “Israel has unjustifiably freed many terrorists from prison in the past, but I don’t remember an instance when terrorists who attempted to murder soldiers were not even brought to trial.”

United Arab List-Ta’al MK Ahmed Tibi responded to the departure of the Turkish activists by calling the charges against them baseless.

“There is no proof that they were carrying arms or that they attacked soldiers,” Tibi said. “Israel knows that the tragic result of firing on peace activists is rightfully seen by the world as a crime, so they are trying to cut their losses. Israel had no choice but to release these peace activists.”[/URL]

[URL]http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177449 (http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177449)

aimlesswanderer

06-06-2010, 06:24

I'm getting more and more suspicious that the Israeli military leadership is distancing itself from the political leadership and is doing things more and more on its own, with the politicians left with the job of covering for them....

What, so you think the military is doing what it thinks it "needs" to, ignoring the civilian government? Having the military run things is always a bad idea, since they have a real liking for the military solution - which just makes things worse.

Fragony

06-06-2010, 08:03

Meneldil

06-06-2010, 08:22

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177449

Good luck to them. Make them taste of their own medecine :D

Tellos Athenaios

06-06-2010, 09:18

@Fragony: too true. Hamas != Mother Theresa. ~;)
@Left Eye: the idea of protesting against the occupation of Cyprus is actually a good idea. Pity it has to be done as a kind of “look! Turkey does it, too!” type reply.

Furunculus

06-06-2010, 09:41

Notice, I'm not even disputing whether or not the Gaza-Jericho agreement is invalid under the Article 62 of the Vienna Convention on Treaties, which could easily be used by Palestine.

Gaza-Jericho agreement, article XI, chapter 1, section a, subsection 2, called "Zone L", refers to the area which is not controlled by the Israeli Navy. In paragraph 3 it says that foreign ships may not approach closer than 12 miles, unless in accordance in with paragraph 4, which states if an interdiction is to be made, then Israel must inform the Maritime Coordination and Cooperation Center, which obviously due to what happened shortly after the signing of the treaty, never came to exist (They were also bound to inform and act in accordance with other non-existent bodies, but this example suffices). Because of that, under the article 61 of the same Vienna Convention, which states that a treaty is invalid if the object required for the execution of the treaty disapears (Or in this case, does not exist).

As for the San Remo agreement, it stipulates the blockade rules between two states at war. The blockade would be justifiable under International Law if Israel recognized Hamas as the sovereign power of Gaza. As it does not, the only alternative for justifying it would be that it would also have to be at war with who the International community (And Israel) recognizes as the governing body of Palestine/Gaza, being that the Palestinian Authority-Fatah. Add to that, the fact that there is no international "jurisprudence" for a blockade of a State over a territory which doesn't recognize as sovereign, and yet still executes the blockade (For instance, the US blockade of Cuba is an action by the State of the USA against the State of Cuba, whereas the Israel blockade of Gaza is an action by the State of Israel against Hamas, which is not a State, and therefore not applicable by the San Remo agreement).

you mean international law doesn't yet accomodate for a situation such as this, no kidding, which is why i don't get too much of a hard-on for absolute compliance with a system of law that fails to apply to the event in hand.

Fragony

06-06-2010, 09:44

Incredibly dumb action, that video more then perfectly shows the hypocracy of it all, should have left it at that.

repost for who missed out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

Hax

06-06-2010, 10:22

repost for who missed out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

Creative, but completely missing the point. It has nothing to do with Hamas.

Fragony

06-06-2010, 10:32

Creative, but completely missing the point. It has nothing to do with Hamas.

You are the one missing the point, what is being mocked = you. Glad they still have sense of humour despite everything but such delicate irony is sadly an exercise in futility.

Tellos Athenaios

06-06-2010, 11:00

Well, I wouldn't call that video *delicate*.

Fragony

06-06-2010, 11:13

Well, I wouldn't call that video *delicate*.

Compared to how the anti-Israel crowd protest it's a full body massage. These guys just hold them a mirror and ask them to take a long look at theirselves.

Hax

06-06-2010, 11:23

You are the one missing the point, what is being mocked = you.

I'm not impressed. I don't go about political matters about who has the moral high ground in shooting the legs off people. I go about the suffering of people. People in both Israel and Gaza are suffering.

Compared to how the anti-Israel crowd protest it's a full body massage.

You are consistently making a fool of yourself with your relativisation of Israel's government's action. You completely disregard every form of mutual punishment or systematic executions, or any unlawful act of Israel by clinging on to this idea that "Well, Hamas is worse". So basically, any action of Israel against anyone is justified, because Hamas is worse. Right?

Fragony

06-06-2010, 11:32

I'm not impressed. I don't go about political matters about who has the moral high ground in shooting the legs off people. I go about the suffering of people. Both the people of Israel and Gaza are suffering.

Did I ever tell you that some of my best friends are black?

Fragony

06-06-2010, 12:00

I'm not impressed. I don't go about political matters about who has the moral high ground in shooting the legs off people. I go about the suffering of people. People in both Israel and Gaza are suffering.

You are consistently making a fool of yourself with your relativisation of Israel's government's action. You completely disregard every form of mutual punishment or systematic executions, or any unlawful act of Israel by clinging on to this idea that "Well, Hamas is worse". So basically, any action of Israel against anyone is justified, because Hamas is worse. Right?

No, but you have already proven my point, you ignored the link I posted about Hamas raiding NGO's. You can say you cry for the whole of humanity all you want, these fingers point in one direction. That both sides suffer is an obligitory wall you erect around your rightious castle.

what unlawful executions btw, wtf, I can show you what they look like, Hamas painting a wall great fun.

LeftEyeNine

06-06-2010, 12:05

Did I ever tell you that some of my best friends are black?

Oh Lord, Frag, a variation of that quote of yours is aobject of ridiculing for the racists in Turkey:

"You know, I got Kurd friends as well. But-"

Just reminded, nothing else really.

Fragony

06-06-2010, 12:19

Oh Lord, Frag, a variation of that quote of yours is aobject of ridiculing for the racists in Turkey:

"You know, I got Kurd friends as well. But-"

Just reminded, nothing else really.

Was kinda making a point, it's a dismissal of having to look further. 'Both sides are suffering, now begone'

Sorry for taking you as an example Hax, you say you don't care about this you don't care about that, in short you don't care about reality. Only about what you feel is right, what makes you happy. Kinda egocentric no, no ideal ever stopped a rocket.

Fragony

06-06-2010, 13:00

no ideal ever stopped a rocket.

My brother who looks just like me posted that

Andres

06-06-2010, 13:08

Well, start your outrage. Lolof course not, absolutely unthinkable this will cause any outrage, there won't be any demonstrations, no one will be overtaken by grief No protest signs. No rightious rage. Really, ask yourselve why.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=177444&t=t

Supporters are also united in silence when Egypt builds a wall and uses gas to clear tunnels. Supporters will simply ignore it, what do you really care about besides who has the biggest moral. What a peversion of any morality at all.

Yes, Fragony, there is Palestinian scum, just like there is Israelian scum. Of course, raiding NGO's is unacceptable (allthough the article doesn't say anything about why the NGO's were raided, then again, I can't think of a good reason to do so, so whatever the explanation for the raid, it's unacceptable).

That doesn't make Israels' stunt acceptable though.

You seem to lose out of sight that you yourself are guilty of not seeing the faults of the other side in the conflict.

This is a complex situation, both sides have blood on their hands, so much is clear.

Nobody in his sane mind will say that the Iraelian/Palestinian is a black/white story.

The outrage vs. Israel for the boat incident however is more than justified. The outrage about the blockade is more than justified (just read those lists others posted about which goods can enter Gaza and which goods cannot; it's a pathetic way to humiliate people and to show who's the strongest). The outrage about certain actions by the Palestinians is also more than justified.

You accuse others of seeing this as being a good guys vs. bad guys story and ignoring the shortcomings of the other side of the conflict, but don't tell me you're not guilty of doing that yourself. You're as much a hypocrite as the people you accuse of being hypocrites.

:balloon2:

Fragony

06-06-2010, 13:35

could be, cant really have an opinion on anything without being a hypocrite somewhere. And there is enough hypocracy to feed the whole planet.

Husar

06-06-2010, 13:44

One even boasted that he made an effort to die as a martyr but was unsuccessful.
Now that is stupid as well.

Well, start your outrage. Lolof course not, absolutely unthinkable this will cause any outrage, there won't be any demonstrations, no one will be overtaken by grief No protest signs. No rightious rage. Really, ask yourselve why.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=177444&t=t
No need to ask for long, it doesn't mention that anyone died during those raids because Hamas conducted the raids in a really, really stupid way. Apparently Hamas is just better at raiding than the IDF, no wonder the IDF is so afraid of Hamas that they just try to lock them up with no supplies. ~;)

I also read that some israeli ministry made a blunder by sending some video that mocks the flotilla(and was apparently made by US conservatives) to several news agencies, could that be the one you linked?

Fragony

06-06-2010, 13:54

I also read that some israeli ministry made a blunder by sending some video that mocks the flotilla(and was apparently made by US conservatives) to several news agencies, could that be the one you linked?

I most certainly hope so

Hax

06-06-2010, 16:42

Sorry for taking you as an example Hax, you say you don't care about this you don't care about that, in short you don't care about reality. Only about what you feel is right, what makes you happy. Kinda egocentric no, no ideal ever stopped a rocket.

Then who was Martin Luther King? Then who was Mohandas Gandhi?

in short you don't care about reality.

Oh Fragony, if only you'd understand the subtleties of irony.

Fragony

06-06-2010, 17:05

irrelevant post

Seamus Fermanagh

06-06-2010, 20:19

This thread is teetering on closure, despite its discussion of a timely and relevant topic.

FOCUS ON THE ARGUMENT, not the poster.

This includes issues such as hypocrisy. Questioning "aren't you being hypocritical here" is pushing it but permissable. Posting "you are a hypocrite" is likely not acceptable.

Play the ball, not the other player.

Lemur

06-06-2010, 20:21

The Economist puts this whole thing on the cover, and as usual, their analysis is astute:

Israel's siege mentality (http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=16274081)

The government’s macho attitude is actually making Israel weaker

THE lethal mishandling of Israel’s attack on a ship carrying humanitarian supplies that was trying to break the blockade of Gaza was bound to provoke outrage—and rightly so. The circumstances of the raid are murky and may well remain that way despite an inquiry (see article). But the impression received yet again by the watching world is that Israel resorts to violence too readily. More worryingly for Israel, the episode is accelerating a slide towards its own isolation. Once admired as a plucky David facing down an array of Arab Goliaths, Israel is now seen as the clumsy bully on the block.

Israel’s desire to stop the flotilla reaching Gaza was understandable, given its determination to maintain the blockade. Yet the Israelis also had a responsibility to conduct the operation safely. The campaigners knew that either way they would win. If they had got through, it would have been a triumphant breaching of the blockade. If forcibly stopped, with their cargo of medical equipment and humanitarian aid, they would be portrayed as victims—even if some, as the Israelis contend, brought clubs, knives and poles. As it was, disastrous planning by Israel’s soldiers led to a needless loss of life.

For anyone who cares about Israel, this tragedy should be the starting point for deeper questions—about the blockade, about the Jewish state’s increasing loneliness and the route to peace. A policy of trying to imprison the Palestinians has left their jailer strangely besieged.

Losing friends, strengthening Hamas

The blockade of Gaza is cruel and has failed. The Gazans have suffered sorely but have not been starved into submission. Hamas has not been throttled and overthrown, as Israeli governments (and many others) have wished. Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier taken hostage, has not been freed. Weapons and missiles can still be smuggled in through tunnels from Egypt.

Just as bad, from Israel’s point of view, it helps feed antipathy towards Israel, not just in the Arab and Muslim worlds, but in Europe too. Israel once had warm relations with a ring of non-Arab countries in the vicinity, including Iran and Turkey. The deterioration of Israel’s relations with Turkey, whose citizens were among the nine dead, is depriving Israel of a rare Muslim ally and mediator. It is startling how, in its bungled effort to isolate Gaza, democratic Israel has come off worse than Hamas, which used to send suicide-bombers into restaurants.

Most telling of all are the stirrings of disquiet in America, Israel’s most steadfast ally. Americans are still vastly more sympathetic to the Israelis than to the Palestinians. But a growing number, especially Democrats, including many liberal Jews, are getting queasier about what they see as America’s too robotic support for Israel, especially when its government is as hawkish as Binyamin Netanyahu’s. A gap in sympathy for Israel has widened between Democrats and Republicans. Conservatives still tend to back Israel through hell and the high seas. Barack Obama is more conscious that the Palestinians’ failure to get a state is helping to spread anti-American poison across the Muslim world, making it harder for him to deal with Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. His generals have strenuously made that point. None other than the head of Israel’s Mossad, its foreign intelligence service, declared this week that America has begun to see Israel more as a burden than an asset.

That has led to the charge by hawkish American Republicans, as well as many Israelis, that Mr Obama is bent on betraying Israel. In fact, he is motivated by a harder-nosed appreciation of the pros and cons of America’s cosiness with Israel, and is thus all the keener to prod the Jewish state towards giving the Palestinians a fair deal. He has condemned the building of Jewish settlements on Palestinian territory more bluntly than his predecessors did, because he rightly thinks they make it harder to negotiate a peace deal. Mr Obama’s greater sternness towards Israel is for the general good—including Israel’s.

Harmony is not just a dream

Israel is caught in a vicious circle. The more its hawks think the outside world will always hate it, the more it tends to shoot opponents first and ask questions later, and the more it finds that the world is indeed full of enemies. Though Mr Netanyahu has reluctantly agreed to freeze settlement-building and is negotiating indirectly with Palestinians, he does not give the impression of being willing to give ground in the interests of peace.

Yet the prospect of a deal between Palestinians and Israelis still beckons. The contours of a two-state solution remain crystal-clear: an adjusted border, with Israel keeping some of the biggest settlements while Palestine gets equal swaps of land; Jerusalem shared as a capital, with special provisions for the holy places; and an admission by Palestinians that they cannot return to their old homes in what became Israel in 1948, with some theoretical right of return acknowledged by Israel and a small number of refugees let back without threatening the demographic preponderance of Jewish Israelis.

And what about Hamas, if Israel is to lift the siege of Gaza? How should Israel handle an authoritarian movement that refuses to recognise it and has in the past readily used terror? One answer is to ask the UN to oversee the flow of goods and people going in and out of Gaza. That is hardly a cure-all, but Hamas would become the world’s problem neighbour, not just Israel’s. The Arab world must do more, pressing Hamas to disavow violence, publicly pledge not to resume the firing of rockets at Israeli civilians and revoke its anti-Semitic charter. The West, led by Mr Obama, should call for Hamas to be drawn into negotiations, both with its rival Palestinians on the West Bank as well as with Israel, even if it does not immediately recognise the Jewish state. It is still the party the Palestinians elected in 2006 to represent all of them. None of this will be easy. But the present stalemate is bloodily leading nowhere.

Israel is a regional hub of science, business and culture. Despite its harsh treatment of Palestinians in the land it occupies, it remains a vibrant democracy. But its loneliness, partly self-inflicted, is making it a worse place, not just for the Palestinians but also for its own people. If only it can replenish its stock of idealism and common sense before it is too late.

LeftEyeNine

06-06-2010, 20:48

@Husar

When it's a matter of dedication and faith, labelling it "stupid" hardly can get objective. It's like me -as a believer- trying to persuade some atheist by saying "how the heck can you not see the proof of and feel his presence all around us ?". That's how Thích Quảng Đức set himself on fire looking as if he was comforting himself in the bathtub.

Hax

06-06-2010, 20:59

what unlawful executions btw, wtf, I can show you what they look like, Hamas painting a wall great fun.

Four bullets to the head and one to the chest? It sounds a bit unnecessary, eh.

Fragony

06-06-2010, 22:26

Furunculus

06-06-2010, 22:41

Four bullets to the head and one to the chest? It sounds a bit unnecessary, eh.

i'd like to see a photo of the dead guy five seconds before he got deaded:

if he was swinging a metal bar at a prone israeli soldiers head, fair play.

if he was smoking a hookah while watching the stars over the taffrail, not fair play.

tibilicus

06-07-2010, 00:47

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy

Things got interesting again..

Kadagar_AV

06-07-2010, 02:40

I think Israel did a sterling job, killing people in international waters boarding a ship.

What could POSSIBLY be wrong with that?

I of course also applaud the Somali pirates.

And to anyone who dare to question this: this is ISRAEL we speak about. You know, the bastion of freedom and stuff in the middle east. They can never be wrong, and will never be wrong. Just read your Bible, they are the Chosen People.

If you are against Israels actions, you are against GOD, and I am somewhat sure that will lead to you being hit by lightning... or something like that. Rest assured it is bad though.

Husar

06-07-2010, 05:57

If you look at the video of the boarding you see they are attacked the second they set foot on the boat, no execution, self-defence. Calling it murder or an execution is just wrong, might even go as far as calling it spreading hate.

You haven't really read the thread, have you? I already said it's not self defense if you rappel down into an angry mob, maybe technically it is but on the other hand, the only thing you do is escalate the situation, professional people boarding a ship with an angry mob would try to de-escalate the situation(and still shoot but only if that isn't possible), that's the thing I've been criticizing all over the place...

Fragony

06-07-2010, 06:45

De-escalate how, these guys were out for a fight.

Tuuvi

06-07-2010, 06:54

And to anyone who dare to question this: this is ISRAEL we speak about. You know, the bastion of freedom and stuff in the middle east. They can never be wrong, and will never be wrong. Just read your Bible, they are the Chosen People.

If you are against Israels actions, you are against GOD, and I am somewhat sure that will lead to you being hit by lightning... or something like that. Rest assured it is bad though.

Except for when they started being naughty and worshiping idols, then God sent in the Babylonians...being a Christian or a Jew doesn't mean you have to support Israel's actions.

Fragony

06-07-2010, 07:21

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/gaza-blockade-iran-aid-convoy

Things got interesting again..

No kidding, that would put Turkey in a rather awkward position as a Nato member. No more aid convoys full with peaceful people probably.

Ironside

06-07-2010, 07:34

De-escalate how, these guys were out for a fight.

And so are any rioters.

Isreali timeline account for the boarding. (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-navy-3-commandos-nearly-taken-hostage-in-gaza-flotilla-raid-1.294114) Not complete, but still some info I haven't red about.

Banquo's Ghost

06-07-2010, 07:40

Despite Seamus' clear advice and Lemur's attempt at bringing an intelligent discussion piece to the table, we have gone straight back to bickering and trolling.

Another Israel thread goes the way of all flesh.

:closed: