Rangoon Kaboom

[Subotan]

Burma wants Nukes, and is getting them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/burma-nuclear-weapons

Kelley and Fowle compare their source, Sai Thein Win, to Mordechai Vanunu (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/jan/02/mordechai-vanunu-duty-nuclear-whistleblower), the technician who blew the whistle on Israel's nuclear weapons reactor at Dimona. Referring to hundreds of photographs they say he has smuggled out of Burma, they say: "Photographs could be faked but there are so many and they are so consistent with other information and within themselves that they lead to a high degree of confidence that Burma is pursuing nuclear technology".

Despite their view that Burmese scientists are far from acquiring the technology or building anything dangerous, they say their analysis "leads to only one conclusion; this technology is only for nuclear weapons and not civilian use or nuclear power".


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304859.html

Among the images provided by the major are technical drawings of a device known as a bomb-reduction vessel, which is chiefly used in the making of uranium metal for fuel rods and nuclear-weapons components. The defector also released a document purporting to show a Burmese government official ordering production of the device, as well as photos of the finished vessel.

Other photographs show Burmese military officials and civilians posing beside a device known as a vacuum glove box, which also is used in the production of uranium metal. The defector describes ongoing efforts on various phases of a nuclear-weapons program, from uranium mining to work on advanced lasers used in uranium enrichment. Some of the machinery used in the Burmese program appears to have been of Western origin.




The report notes that the Burmese scientists appear to be struggling to master the technology and that some processes, such as laser enrichment, likely far exceed the capabilities of the impoverished, isolated country.


http://www.globalsecuritynewswire.org/gsn/nw_20100604_5280.php


Burmese scholar Aung Naing Oo speculated that the junta could seek to copy the tactics used by North Korea, which attempts to use its nuclear weapons program to increase its bargaining power with other nations. "It serves a purpose. The military knows that nuclear weapons are a shortcut to getting on the international radar and earning respect geopolitically," Aung said (Martin Petty, Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE65320420100604), June 4).
In late May, U.N. officials charged with overseeing sanctions levied against Pyongyang for its nuclear weapons program said it appeared that the North was collaborating with Myanmar as well as Syria and Iran on illegal nuclear and missile operations, the Associated Press reported (see GSN (http://www.globalsecuritynewswire.org/gsn/nw_20100528_4227.php), May 28).
Documents acquired previously indicated that the North was aiding Myanmar in excavation work to build several underground structures and to develop missiles that could travel as far as 1,860 miles.


Yikes. Now we've got a Pyongyang in South East Asia. Hopefully ASEAN will now get their fingers out of their bums and start applying pressure to the Junta. India's reaction will be interesting as well, although we all know what China's reaction will be.

[Beskar]

Seems like Winter is coming early for South East Asia.

[Subotan]

Springtime for Than Shwe, and Beijing...

Winter, for Thailand, and Laos...

[Furunculus]

have they signed the NPT?

if so employ sanctions and scupper trade.

[Subotan]

Yep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non-Proliferation_Treaty

That didn't stop North Korea though.

[Furunculus]

well, they have pretty much every sanction readily applicable anyway.

[KukriKhan]

We should start a pool: In what year will 50% of nations possess nukes.

I lay 20 bucks on 2014.


-edit-
I'll instead be more cognizant of history and pick August 6th, 2015. A full 70 years after Hiroshima.

And I suppose we should pat ourselves on the back, that we managed to delay that awful day for 2 generations.

[gaelic cowboy]

Time to let John Rambo slip in across the border with a 50cal I think.

[Cute Wolf]

actually, more nations have nukes than you can imagine (evil grin...)

[aimlesswanderer]

If only this became more of an issue when dubya was still in charge. If you told them there was lots oil and other resources there, hello regime change! The area is much less of a mess too.

[Cute Wolf]

If only this became more of an issue when dubya was still in charge. If you told them there was lots oil and other resources there, hello regime change! The area is much less of a mess too.

actually that dubya give some nukes to his "allied" nations... really

[Seamus Fermanagh]

actually that dubya give some nukes to his "allied" nations... really

Source?

[Furunculus]

actually that dubya give some nukes to his "allied" nations... really

really..............?

[Cute Wolf]

it was common knowledge that he helped us in constructing that nuclear reactor researches...... (for unknown reasons, USA helped us in planning nuclear reactor, but the very same thing with Iran got him furious, got the disproportionality?)

[Furunculus]

there is a difference between a nuclear reactor and active collusion to assist a nuclear weapons program in Indonesia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Indonesia

[Cute Wolf]

but why they forbid the Iranians for getting the very same thing? the Iranians only build nuclear reactors... (although I didn't like Ahmedinejad's viewpoint either, but why not got some peaceful nuclear use?)

I'm sure Burmese also want some peaceful use too....

[Furunculus]

lets go back to first principles; why would the fact that iran has been refused nuclear technology indicate that the US is giving nuclear weapons technology?

[Kadagar_AV]

We should start a pool: In what year will 50% of nations possess nukes.

I lay 20 bucks on 2014.


-edit-
I'll instead be more cognizant of history and pick August 6th, 2015. A full 70 years after Hiroshima.

And I suppose we should pat ourselves on the back, that we managed to delay that awful day for 2 generations.



I do assume you are joking?

~195 nations in the world.
7 of them have nukes as we know, 8 with Israel (as we all know have nukes regardless; but as they are Israel they don't need to be open about it because they are, well, Israel).

0-4 nations are developing nukes... 1 most def if you trust Fox News, but then I assume the common reader of this thread is not retarded.

Lets bump it up to a possible 12 with unknown factors? Just to be lenient.

Still have quite some to go.

As a side note: is it not fun how the only country to use such as despicable weapon somehow think they are fit to judge who should have nukes and not?

[Louis VI the Fat]

As a side note: is it not fun how the only country to use such as despicable weapon somehow think they are fit to judge who should have nukes and not?This depends a good deal on what one defines as 'used'.


It is estimated that approximately 150.000 (!!) people have been exposed (http://www.aven.org/) to nuclear blasts for French testing. This carried on as late as 1996 (!!).

Law suits, having been frustrated for decades, got an result last year. France is going to compensate people. Environmental destruction is enormous too.


I assume there are similar histories to the other nuclear powers, China, Russia, Britain.

Still, despite this, we try to prevent nuclear prolifiration, yes.

[Kadagar_AV]

My dear Louis, one would have thought that the reference to "using" nukes would be taken as "using them on civilians in an actual war".

Of course every country with nuclear weapon capacity has done testing (wouldn't be very scientific if not, would it?). I am sadly aware of the French testing, as well as the impact on the environment. US testing wasn't better, there has been a quite excellent movie about it. Don't even get me started on Russian testings.





However, this is all WAY away from my main point. That the ONLY country to ever USE nukes somehow see themselves at a moral superior level.

There is a very old saying, I think it has something to do with boomerangs, no?

"What goes around, comes around..." "... and often harder".

I will not cheer the day America gets hit by a nuke. Nor should anyone. I will however save my tears for more pressing issues.

[Louis VI the Fat]

One could argue that the Americans used their nukes to end a war of agression brought upon them. Whereas the French nukes were used on thousands of French troops, used for guinea pigs. And some local Algerians.

No need to travel to Hiroshima to see the effect nukes have on populations, decades onwards. Just visit a French verteran's association.


Considering the circumstances under which the US boms were used - I, for one, find it not within me to decry their use other than on a 'shame it had to come to this' level - I do not see why the US should lose any moral authority over it.

Has America lost its moral authority by fighting the Axis, whereas has Sweden retained its moral authority despite growing rich by being the largest industrial resource supplier to the Nazis? :smash:

[Kadagar_AV]

A stab at my ancestry? If so, I would have to say you are very very very very VERY much wrong. On both sides of my family.

One could argue that... And one could argue this... And then of course that again.

At the end of the day though, no matter how you try to bend it, the end result will be that only one nation has ever used atomic weapons in a war. Sure other nations has also used it on their own population. That is however an internal national problem.

My point still stands, the only nation to have used such a horrid weapon at war is most def in no position to influence who would posses this weapon and not. From a moral perspective. If you, however, want to argue that "might is right", or that "the winner writes the history", I will be the first one to put on my pom-poms and cheer the US on.

Your point about Swedens neutrality... Uh... Ok, I got it. No, wait, I did not. You claim that my point is invalid because some country was neutral in WW2? You might want to elaborate on that. Don't get me wrong, I for one most def think Sweden should have stood up for Norway when they were attacked by the bad guys, as well as we should have stood up for Finland when they were attacked by the.... uh... good guys?

I am sure you know more about Swedish history than poor old me, or even the politicians at the time. I still, however, very much question the relevance to this thread though.

[gaelic cowboy]

USA used an atom bomb but todays missiles are well Thermonuclear.:book:

[spmetla]

I'd say that the circumstances surrounding the dropping of the two a-bombs justified the action of doing so. It was an impressive weapon and together with the Soviet entry in the war on Imperial Japan helped end the war in a short time instead of conducting a protracted and bloodier campaign through the entire Japanese island chain. It was still a horrible thing to do but more Japanese would have died if the war continued on an the land invasion was needed not to mention the continued firebombing of Japanese cities.

I'd think you'd understand that WWII was one heck of a circumstance in which to use such weapons, weapons for which the US wasn't even aware of the long lasting radioactive effects. How does this reduce the US moral authority in trying to limit how many countries have access to such powerful weapons. Why does this make it okay for you to stab at MY ancestry in the same way? Do past wrongs or horrors by previous generations mean that the current generation is equally as guilty and unfit to see the horror that the weapons can cause? We could make endless analogies of current countries decrying something their countrymen of a previous generation did but that shouldn't mean that the current generation should not be allowed to or be considered hypocritical because they oppose such outrages.

Do you think that the US should not try and limit the spread of nuclear weapons?

[Megas Methuselah]

Do past wrongs or horrors by previous generations mean that the current generation is equally as guilty and unfit to see the horror that the weapons can cause?

Intergenerational guilt varies on the circumstances.

[Centurion1]

No megas I'm not giving you up my land because I'm white......... lol :clown:

Oh and I agree with kadagar. America sucks! Nukes for everybody I want equality dammit!

[Ironside]

Going back on topic, I'm more curious on why they are developing nukes. They aren't really threatened by their neighbours or any western country, they still get money through sanction loop holes and they aren't feeding their population by aid.

So most threats are internal and I don't think nuking the rebels in the north or Suu Kyi's home are going to be the most sane course of action.

Other option would be watching too many super villain movies and trying to blackmail the world with nukes. That won't end well either.

[ajaxfetish]

As a side note: is it not fun how the only country to use such as despicable weapon somehow think they are fit to judge who should have nukes and not?
Alternatively, one might say that after witnessing the horrors of atomic warfare firsthand, America (along with Japan), is exceptionally justified in seeking to limit the spread of nuclear weapons technology.

Ajax

[spmetla]

Intergenerational guilt varies on the circumstances.

EDIT: What's your verdict on this circumstance then (US guilt of abombs in relation to nuclear non-proliferation enforcement)?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

A stab at my ancestry? If so, I would have to say you are very very very very VERY much wrong. On both sides of my family.

One could argue that... And one could argue this... And then of course that again.

At the end of the day though, no matter how you try to bend it, the end result will be that only one nation has ever used atomic weapons in a war. Sure other nations has also used it on their own population. That is however an internal national problem.

My point still stands, the only nation to have used such a horrid weapon at war is most def in no position to influence who would posses this weapon and not. From a moral perspective. If you, however, want to argue that "might is right", or that "the winner writes the history", I will be the first one to put on my pom-poms and cheer the US on.

Your point about Swedens neutrality... Uh... Ok, I got it. No, wait, I did not. You claim that my point is invalid because some country was neutral in WW2? You might want to elaborate on that. Don't get me wrong, I for one most def think Sweden should have stood up for Norway when they were attacked by the bad guys, as well as we should have stood up for Finland when they were attacked by the.... uh... good guys?

I am sure you know more about Swedish history than poor old me, or even the politicians at the time. I still, however, very much question the relevance to this thread though.


It is possible that I am mistaking the tone of your posts herein. This happens to me when I am inundated by what appears to me to be sanctimonious self indulgence -- it gets in the way of a clear read of things. Nevertheless, a few basic points:

1. My nation is the only nation known to have used nuclear-design weapons in combat. We did so on carefully selected "virgin" targets in Japan and in the full knowledge that tens of thousands of civilians would be killed along with the military personnel and industrial infrastructure in those cities. The virgin targets were specifically selected to make dramatically clear just how much destructive power we had at our disposal, with the intention of shocking into surrender an opponent who had demonstrated, to that date, a willingness to die while killing as many of us as possible without anything resembling a large-scale surrender. We wanted to make it clear that each and every plane we sent over could level a city, and that we no longer needed hundreds upon of sorties to destroy one as we had with the Tokyo Fire Raid. Again, the real purpose was to bring the war to a rapid conclusion and to kill far fewer US military personnel in the process.

2. While US forces had already demonstrated their willingness to obliterate targets of limited military/industrial value so as to break the enemy's will to resist (e.g. Hamburg, Dresden), the weapons used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a quantum leap forward in destructive power. After absorbing damage from two such attacks, political elements willing to surrender were able (narrowly) to take that step and bring about a conclusion to the war.

3. After this surrender, authorities from Japan and from the USA (along with most of our other Allies) began to really learn the real long-term impacts of nuclear attack on an urban center -- an ongoing impact that is felt, at least to a limited extent, to the present. The USA has never used nuclear weapons in combat since, even on those occasional situations where it would have made excellent military sense and would have harmed relatively few civilians, infrastructure, and the like.

4. From the outset, non-proliferation was one of the goals of our nuclear weapons program. We shared technology with the British and French, but specifically exempted the Kuomintang and the Soviets (who stole and/or replicated it for themselves) as we did not fully trust them nor want them to have that power. We have steadfastly employed quite a lot of effort over the years to limit other nations' ability to acquire the technology and resources necessary to create their own nuclear weapons. On one level, that can be considered morally absurd -- by what right do we believe that we should be able to make such weapons and have that power over other nations whereas they do not? -- but on a simpler moral level, that of protecting your own people, the attempt to limit proliferation is almost a moral absolute.

5. Six decades after their use in combat, no nuclear devices have been actively employed as weapon. Regrettably, we will not be able to say that after another six decades. Those holding the "nuclear card" have shown themselve unwilling to do everything in their power to prevent others from acquiring this capability -- and yes that means violence and sending your own to die to achieve national security at the expense of the individual rights and self-determination of another state. Moreover, the respect accorded a state with nuclear weapons -- particularly if all concerned are convinced that there are a set of circumstances in which they would be used -- does change the level of "respect" accorded those nations so equipped. It is, therefore, a national objective worth more in terms of power and security than feeding your own people. The most rational choice a smaller state can make is to equip itself with nuclear weapons and outline their "final resort" usage -- it frees them from playing second fiddle to all of the other nuclear powers and grants them a measure of equality.

6. However rational such a choice may be for the state in question, the proliferation of nuclear weapons to states whose track record on issues of corruption is at best mixed is to me the most alarming of all. Whatever else may be said of them, the pre-1950 nuclear powers had an enviable lack of corruption (relatively, not absolute) combined with a vested incentive to maintain strict control over such weapons. Though the latter incentive is true for all members and would-be members of the nuclear club, the former condition -- a relatively minimal degree of corruption -- is less and less the norm. It is this that will, in my opinion, likely see a nuclear weapon pass into the hands of some NGO with an axe to grind and enough money to buy off the right people at the right time. That weapon will then go off somewhere very painful to my country and our allies and Tens of thousands of one of our countries citizens will die. Moreover, we will not be able to hit back in kind, because the NGO will have no fixed locale worthy of such an effort. We can make a sustained effort to stop such an event before it comes to fruition. Sadly, as with all such "asymetric" combat issues, we'll have to be successful 100% of the time...a pretty tough standard.

[Beskar]

7 of them have nukes as we know, 8 with Israel

Far more than that. There are those with nukes, sharing nukes, or had nukes and "disarmed", which are the following:

USA
Russia
UK
France
China
Canada
India
Pakistan
South Africa
Israel
North Korea
Belguim
Netherlands
Turkey
Germany
Italy
Greece
Ukraine
Belarus
Kazakhstan

[Husar]

At what point did Germany have it's own nukes? Surely we have the technology and the means to have them, and we have american nukes stationed here but I'm not aware that we ever had any nukes of our own.

[Kadagar_AV]

Far more than that. There are those with nukes, sharing nukes, or had nukes and "disarmed", which are the following:

USA
Russia
UK
France
China
Canada
India
Pakistan
South Africa
Israel
North Korea
Belguim
Netherlands
Turkey
Germany
Italy
Greece
Ukraine
Belarus
Kazakhstan

That list is flawed mate. And as you said, you listed some countries with disarmed nukes.

[Beskar]

At what point did Germany have it's own nukes? Surely we have the technology and the means to have them, and we have american nukes stationed here but I'm not aware that we ever had any nukes of our own.

Whole point of the sharing is so you have the protection of Nuclear weapons, without having an independent control over them. While these are "shared" they are basically a compromise for you having your own weapons. Half-way measure. But in reality, it is basically you having your own weapons.

[Beskar]

That list is flawed mate. And as you said, you listed some countries with disarmed nukes.

You never know, they still might have some hidden away. But the fact they even had nuclear weapons is another thing in itself.

[Husar]

Whole point of the sharing is so you have the protection of Nuclear weapons, without having an independent control over them. While these are "shared" they are basically a compromise for you having your own weapons. Half-way measure. But in reality, it is basically you having your own weapons.

I thought it was more a thing of the US spreading them around and also a matter of range in the beginning since ICBMs didn't exist in the early days of the nuclear age.
And we don't need them anyway as long as France has them, while the nationalistic islanders who deny being part of Europe anyway, aka the British, may just watch us getting overrun by whoever (the soviets back then), I doubt the French would. ~;)

[Furunculus]

And we don't need them anyway as long as France has them, while the nationalistic islanders who deny being part of Europe anyway, aka the British, may just watch us getting overrun by whoever (the soviets back then), I doubt the French would. ~;)

Those 'perfidious' Brits spent forty years maintaining 60,000 troops in Germany during the coldwar, and even now there are 25,000 British troops stationed there.

:daisy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_of_the_Rhine

[Centurion1]

Dude bet south africa still has nukes man one of their main exports is mercenaries for gods sake

[Kadagar_AV]

Dude bet south africa still has nukes man one of their main exports is mercenaries for gods sake

Source?

[drone]

Dude bet south africa still has nukes man one of their main exports is mercenaries for gods sake

I seriously doubt it. They dismantled when they saw the writing on the wall for apartheid. The whites did not want to see the new government with nukes.

[Centurion1]

Are you ********* me kadagar it was a joke about how many mercenaries are south African. Surely you know that theyhave an excess to say the least due to certain........factors. ah the wite population

[Louis VI the Fat]

Why did you asterix out 'kidding'?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Why did you asterix out 'kidding'?

Trying to be sensitive to the goat members of the Backroom?

[Kadagar_AV]

He he... When I see "dude", "man" and "for gods sake" in one sentence I cant help but to jab. Specially when the main point at that is Ludicrous, joke or not.

All for chuckles of course :)



As to the mysterious "*********".

Shame on you Louis, it is clearly a 9-letter word, and "kidding" is only 7.

I wonder what word it could be?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Trying to be sensitive to the goat members of the Backroom? Perhaps commendable political correctness and cultural sensitivity then - the word, after all, is a virtual synonym of kiddie porn in *****-******.

[Centurion1]

So kadagar ever heard of a concept of hyperbole? Would you like me to define said term for you? Well then while exaggerated (as any fool could see) the point is still valid. There is a huge outflow of south african mercenaries, more specifically of the afrikaner population. Look at conflicts in africa, sierra leone, nambia, mozambique, etc. South african mercs involved. There are around 1500 south african mercenaries in Iraq alone.

And when a man who puts flags of women he has had sexual relations with as his signature attempts to ridicule me without any background knowledge on the point they are ridiculing I am flabbergasted

[Azathoth]

Weren't you talking about nuclear weapons?

[Centurion1]

Yeah sorry......


You would think this would degenerate into a debate on whether MAD prevents war or not

[Azathoth]

Yeah sorry......


You would think this would degenerate into a debate on whether MAD prevents war or not

I've seen Dr. Strangelove.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I've seen Dr. Strangelove.

O.P.E., baby...O.P.E.

[Kadagar_AV]

So kadagar ever heard of a concept of hyperbole? Would you like me to define said term for you? Well then while exaggerated (as any fool could see) the point is still valid. There is a huge outflow of south african mercenaries, more specifically of the afrikaner population. Look at conflicts in africa, sierra leone, nambia, mozambique, etc. South african mercs involved. There are around 1500 south african mercenaries in Iraq alone.

I was aware.


And when a man who puts flags of women he has had sexual relations with as his signature attempts to ridicule me without any background knowledge on the point they are ridiculing I am flabbergasted

Huh?

When working as ski instructor, you very often get invited (specially from private guests) to visit them. Many of us (it is a bit of a tradition) every few years then do a "around the world" tour, visiting all guests at once, living and eating for free, and usually get shown around, having a great time. So the "flags", or countries where you went, is for ski instructors a bit of a inofficial way to determine experience.

Sexual relationships? Don't force your wierd little teenage sexual fantasies on me!

[Centurion1]

Ah **** I remembered incorrectly what the flags were for dammit.

Ok you have my apology, but just this once

[Kadagar_AV]

Ah **** I remembered incorrectly what the flags were for dammit.

Ok you have my apology, but just this once

Nah, just having some fun. Got ya though, didn't I?

I totally did those nationalities, or did I? :D

A good lesson in assumptions nevertheless.



To get back on topic however: I think nukes and weapons like them should be forbidden altogether. It is just a bit too much brute strength with a little to little brain behind.

I don't have the source handy now, but there was this excellent research done about natural weapons and control. To summarize it, Wolves and such, with great natural weapons, are generally very controlled in their dealings with their own species. Show your bare throat and the fight is over.

Animals with less dangerous natural weapons however, say birds, often fight to the death or at least mutilation.

This went to show that when a being has a great ability to kill, they usually also have great restraint to do it. Civilization in the jungle, if you want.

I think you start to sense where this is leading.

We have evolved technologically WAY behind our mental barriers to hinder us from using the weapons at hand. We can annihilate the world with the press of a button basically, do we have the intellectual capacity to back up that power?

Look at the Cuba Crisis, we could have been in a nuclear war if not for one individual who stepped up and went against orders (second in command on a soviet sub who refused to give his authorization to use nuclear weaponry even when the ships captain ordered him to).

I would hope that my life and civilization at large is not dependent on someone breaking orders.

This was a bit of a rant, but I hope I got my main point across.

[Kadagar_AV]

Reminds me of an old Russian joke...

A Russian submarine meets an American one in the ocean. They rise to the
surface and the American captain and some officers come to visit the Russian
submarine. They enter it, go through looking around and finally enter the
nuclear missile control room when the Russian captain suddenly loosing his
temper shouts out with all his might to his crewmembers:
- Who the ********, ******, has thrown the boot on the console?!
Americans say:
- We in America don't use such ugly words.
- America!? There is no America any more! Who the ******* has thrown the boot on
that console?!!

[gaelic cowboy]

Kadagar your reasoning on banning nuke sounds good till you cop that even rubbish countries like North Korea apparently have nukes. Banning nukes will make the world less safe as small to medium sized powers scramble for the advantage even a single nuke could give them in there particular region.

If every country on earth has say less than a dozen nukes then they will likely be used more often as it's not an extinction event for the entire earth

[Centurion1]

Exactly when everyone becomes an idealist and develops nuclear weapon, sure id say go for it. Until then we will just have to wait for some sort of magical technology that can counter a few thousand nukes all at once.