Shogun 2 Total War silly questions [Archive]

Ibrahim

06-08-2010, 04:47

There is no "if" at Sega, they won't let the CA to release a moddable game. Btw, there won't be EB3, that was announced by the team a few months ago now. Chill, there will be EB2.

and of course, the silly *persons* at CA won't even release a sourcode for their older games. so that avenue is also blocked-bigtime. honestly, what's with their paranoia about allowing their newer programs to be modded, or releasing source codes for older games?

I do recall an attempt to petition CA for a medieval:total war source code (sice the game is older-much older-than 5 years), to which I was involved, and put in good reasons for providing such a thing (incentivise for buying vanilla, greater appreciation for product, it doesn't hurt the company financially (just ask ID-they released source codes for the first 3 quakes)), etc, etc).

alas, it came to naught as far as I can tell :shame:

Intranetusa

06-08-2010, 05:13

The developers at CA will realize that EB1 is better than the original RTW game, and EB2 is better than MTW2, so they will hire the entire EB team to make a historically accurate TW game...

One can dream... :D

Hannibal Khan the Great

06-08-2010, 06:19

and of course, the silly *persons* at CA won't even release a sourcode for their older games. so that avenue is also blocked-bigtime. honestly, what's with their paranoia about allowing their newer programs to be modded, or releasing source codes for older games?

I do recall an attempt to petition CA for a medieval:total war source code (sice the game is older-much older-than 5 years), to which I was involved, and put in good reasons for providing such a thing (incentivise for buying vanilla, greater appreciation for product, it doesn't hurt the company financially (just ask ID-they released source codes for the first 3 quakes)), etc, etc).

alas, it came to naught as far as I can tell :shame:

I'm actually thinking Sega, and not CA, is behind this. Notice how after Rome - after CA switched from Activision to Sega - the modding capability has decreased drastically. Even Medieval 2 was not very moddable without the unpacker supplied in the files. And with Empire and Nap, it's gone into the abyss.

Ludens

06-08-2010, 15:23

I'm actually thinking Sega, and not CA, is behind this. Notice how after Rome - after CA switched from Activision to Sega - the modding capability has decreased drastically. Even Medieval 2 was not very moddable without the unpacker supplied in the files. And with Empire and Nap, it's gone into the abyss.

I think part of the reason is that CA ditched their own unpackers for third-party tools, which they do not own and can therefor not release to the public. AFAIK that is the reason why the promised modding tools for M2:TW did not materialize (the obvious question being why CA promised this in the first place).

Fluvius Camillus

06-08-2010, 17:32

Over here... I want to ask a silly Shogun question (as the title implies)!

Will there be Lorica Segmentata?:clown::clown:

~Fluvius

Ibrahim

06-08-2010, 17:55

I think part of the reason is that CA ditched their own unpackers for third-party tools, which they do not own and can therefor not release to the public. AFAIK that is the reason why the promised modding tools for M2:TW did not materialize (the obvious question being why CA promised this in the first place).

they didn't think that Sega would be run by *****? if what Hannibal up there says (which, in light of CA's business history, is most certainly true), then it is evident that their new leaders essentially scrapped their packers, in favor of their ulra paranoid locks and packs, sometime after the buyout of CA to Sega. in other words, against CA's will?

I'm still dubious that it was against CA's will though...ID still helps on and off with modding the quake series, even after their own buyout last year.

Foot

06-08-2010, 18:03

It wasn't sega and it wasn't against CA's will (for MTW2 at least). Developing new file formats that hold the full information required for the engine to show the game world as it is meant to be is difficult to do, and CA used third-party software to achieve this. They had thought that they could release convertors to the public, however there was apparently some issues surrounding the release of what are essentially property of another country. I imagine that there would have been a licensing fee that, at the end of the day, could not be paid and so CA were unable to release the appropriate tools as they originally said.

I don't know the reasons behind Empire's unmoddability, but speculation based on flawed and biased views of how a game is created is hardly worthy of posting. CA and/or SEGA bashing isn't really required here. Get back on topic or move we'll move it elsewhere.

Foot

Ludens

06-08-2010, 19:21

I don't know the reasons behind Empire's unmoddability, but speculation based on flawed and biased views of how a game is created is hardly worthy of posting. CA and/or SEGA bashing isn't really required here. Get back on topic or move we'll move it elsewhere.

What he said. I only want to add that the adoption of third-party software is not SEGA's decision, nor would it come from a desire to frustrate modders. Modders aren't a threat to the gaming industry; quite the opposite in fact.

Krusader

06-08-2010, 23:08

What he said. I only want to add that the adoption of third-party software is not SEGA's decision, nor would it come from a desire to frustrate modders. Modders aren't a threat to the gaming industry; quite the opposite in fact.

Some hold this view, but others do not. I read an interview some years ago (can't find it anymore) where an Activision rep said they really did not want people playing older games, as they would rather see gamers move on to new releases. (In my opinion that just showed that many of the higher-ups in games industry don't understand gamers, seemingly comparing them to moviegoers.
On a similar note, some higher-ups most likely view mods as a threat to DLC profits too.

Ibrahim

06-09-2010, 03:18

Ludens

06-09-2010, 13:39

Some hold this view, but others do not. I read an interview some years ago (can't find it anymore) where an Activision rep said they really did not want people playing older games, as they would rather see gamers move on to new releases. (In my opinion that just showed that many of the higher-ups in games industry don't understand gamers, seemingly comparing them to moviegoers.
On a similar note, some higher-ups most likely view mods as a threat to DLC profits too.

Both are fair points, although I wonder if DLC are big money-spinners right now. Personally, I think the comments of Activision's boss indicate personal arrogance rather than company policy. I mean: what kind of response did he expect? The gaming press certainly didn't appreciate his remarks.

Lvcretivs

06-09-2010, 19:05

[...]Personally, I think the comments of Activision's boss indicate personal arrogance rather than company policy.[...] Well, that may play a role, but I don't really think so...
As well made mods are immensely increasing the 'replay value' of an technically 'obsolete' game - without incurring additional profits for the distributors - it's only rational company policy to 'encourage' gamers to shift to more 'modern' games which are - unsurprisingly - more specifically geared towards lucrative DLC distribution - Shogun 2: Total War will be a prime example, just think of all those possible, nicely portioned add-ons (Imjin war etc. ...) - DLC, which already makes up a significant share of console games-based profits.
The more the technical capacities of modders grow and the more sophisticated modding communities are releasing high-quality mods [eg. EBII, ...), the more major game developers have to think of them as economically dangerous competitors - after all, the buyer incentive 'developer-made = better quality' is rapidly losing it's edge as more and more average players are introduced to mods which are quite objectively 'better' and more enjoyable as the unmodified game. If the developers are intent to receive credits for and garner profits from their own creations rather than for distributing a game engine as 'mod basis', they'll have to 'curb' the moddability of their games...either, rather inadvertently, by sheer technical complexity and negligence (ETW) or intentionally...:thinking:

vartan

06-09-2010, 19:32

When you say significant, how much are we talking about here? How much of profits/revenue whatnot comes from DLC?

ziegenpeter

06-10-2010, 13:40

There won't be an EB3. Not because we are fed up (if that was the case, we'd stop EB2), but because modding is actually very time-consuming and most of us have other commitments in life too (family, girlfriends, other hobbies etc.)
Tsssssssssssss, as if...

Cambyses

06-10-2010, 14:10

Well, that may play a role, but I don't really think so...
As well made mods are immensely increasing the 'replay value' of an technically 'obsolete' game - without incurring additional profits for the distributors - it's only rational company policy to 'encourage' gamers to shift to more 'modern' games which are - unsurprisingly - more specifically geared towards lucrative DLC distribution - Shogun 2: Total War will be a prime example, just think of all those possible, nicely portioned add-ons (Imjin war etc. ...) - DLC, which already makes up a significant share of console games-based profits.
The more the technical capacities of modders grow and the more sophisticated modding communities are releasing high-quality mods [eg. EBII, ...), the more major game developers have to think of them as economically dangerous competitors - after all, the buyer incentive 'developer-made = better quality' is rapidly losing it's edge as more and more average players are introduced to mods which are quite objectively 'better' and more enjoyable as the unmodified game. If the developers are intent to receive credits for and garner profits from their own creations rather than for distributing a game engine as 'mod basis', they'll have to 'curb' the moddability of their games...either, rather inadvertently, by sheer technical complexity and negligence (ETW) or intentionally...:thinking:

Its interesting comparing the TW franchise with, say, the Civilization series. Although Im no expert in the gaming industry, I cant think of any other developer that actually released mods on the same CD as their vanilla version and so positively encourages modding activity, even consulting the modding community on future releases. When you see the success of Civ, you do wonder why more developers dont follow suit.

Having said that M2TW does have some excellent (and stable!) mods already released however. Mainly thanks to the added utilities from Kingdoms IMO. Let's hope EBII can be added to that list shortly.

Skullheadhq

06-10-2010, 15:18

Tsssssssssssss, as if...

I always thought that if EB members mentioned their girlfriends, they were referring to EBII. :laugh4:

Ludens

06-10-2010, 15:35

As well made mods are immensely increasing the 'replay value' of an technically 'obsolete' game - without incurring additional profits for the distributors - it's only rational company policy to 'encourage' gamers to shift to more 'modern' games which are - unsurprisingly - more specifically geared towards lucrative DLC distribution - Shogun 2: Total War will be a prime example, just think of all those possible, nicely portioned add-ons (Imjin war etc. ...) - DLC, which already makes up a significant share of console games-based profits.

I agree with your logic, but I am not sure about your assumptions. Well-made mods do increase the replayability; but sufficiently for the many buyers to be still playing the game 18 months later when the next game comes out? Most gamers buy a new game every month or two. Any mod that is that good would probably have a noticeable effect on the sales of the first game; and likely encourage people to buy the second game. How many of us have bought M2:TW or intend to do so for the sake of EB2?

Mods can be a threat to DLC, I agree, but just how much revenue are we talking about here? Personally, I question if DLC is worth the developers' time in the first place: they should be focusing on the next game, or the next expansion, rather than serving up skin-packs and minor campaigns. In other words: DLC is always going to be overpriced to make it worth it for the developers. This being the case, even without mods available DLC will never be a major source of income.

Lvcretivs

06-10-2010, 17:09

[...] Well-made mods do increase the replayability; but sufficiently for the many buyers to be still playing the game 18 months later when the next game comes out? [...]

A valid point, but this seems actually be the case with R:TW - four years after it's release - which evidently has a fairly thriving fan/modding community with major projects both announced and released. On the other hand - are eg. the 'hardcore' EB I players really statistically representative?

Mods can be a threat to DLC, I agree, but just how much revenue are we talking about here? [...]

That's quite a critical point - I completely agree with you that such an 'analysis', if based on rather shaky, probably unrealistic assumptions about expected profits shouldn't be taken very seriously - but this article (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25743), focusing on console games,as well as the second half of this article (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27193/Activision_Social_Monetization_Very_Speculative_Digital_Sales_Up.php) could possibly clear up the issue - and the underlying economical/PR concepts - a bit (insofar as these aspects are transferable to PC strategy games...). I confess, I'm not very good at economics, so don't build on my reasoning...;)

[...] Personally, I question if DLC is worth the developers' time in the first place: they should be focusing on the next game, or the next expansion, rather than serving up skin-packs and minor campaigns. In other words: DLC is always going to be overpriced to make it worth it for the developers. This being the case, even without mods available DLC will never be a major source of income.

Again a perfectly valid and convincing point, that raises an rather interesting (cf. the OP ;), speculative question: What if DLC should rather be seen as instrument of an medial 'image policy', creating the illusion of 'customers/fanbase support' in an desperate attempt to reestablish the endangered 'qualitative superiority' of SEGA/Activision? A further, if not primary purpose of distributing DLC could as well be effective camouflage of 'creative/technical stagnation' on the developer's part - a situation owned to the TW franchise's peculiar position on the genre crossroads between RTS and TBS - eg. compensating the lack of advanced strategic/tactical AI with cosmetic 'eyecandy' and new 'features' geared towards an not so discerning audience...?

EDIT: A rather interesting and critical blog entry about 'Sun Tzu as an AI Design Guide?' (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DaveMark/20100610/5337/Sun_Tzu_as_an_AI_Design_Guide.php)

MisterFred

06-10-2010, 18:15

I don't buy Total War games any more unless there's a mod I want to play. I didn't get Medieval 2 until I heard EB II was coming out, and I'm pretty sure I'll never buy Empire Total War. Unfortunately, there's no way for the companies to know this. It's one of those invisible statistics. Far simpler to just assume that people playing older mods when your new game comes out are not buying the new game - that's probably what I look like to them.

But the truth of the matter is I've never trusted CA's vanilla campaigns ever since war dogs were, apparently, the most powerful unit on the ancient era battlefield. Which is a shame, since I genuinely enjoyed the Shogun Total War single player (no sieges, yay!).

From everything I've read, I made the right decision. I mean, who wants to play an Empire-era game where the AI can't manage a naval invasion or send the Europeans after India? And really, Sun Tzu as an AI design guide? That's a steaming pile of bullcrap - elephant sized. Programming an AI is genuinely hard, but knowing the basics of what you want it to do isn't. Pure propaganda, especially in a game where espionage is so basic.

moonburn

06-13-2010, 01:25

or diplomacy i bought 3 cd´s of rtw 2 for eb1 and only reason i bought mtw2 was for eb2 cause their demo didn´t really appealed to me that much

another thing developers should remember is that most players pc isn´t state of the art and building hard to handle games for computers between 5 to 2 years old is putting aside a major part of their player basis i had to buy a newlaptop for mtw2 and i think i will have to buy another when eb2 comes out cause this is already giving me problems (and this makes me think of markets like china who average income is 146 euros per month i believe or indonesia or india or other places outside europe america and japan wich are basically 80% of the worlds population and are markets being ignored )

the best games are not the one´s with the best graphics it´s the one´s like eb1 that were made so that the makers could enjoy themselfs but until game developers understand that the best profit is the long term profit and not this short term blast that creates trash we´re stuck in this cycle of quick profit frustate the gamers and when something new comes along everyone changes to the new platform and the cycle begins again (one would have hoped that sega had learned it´s lesson due to their past history in the console world agaisnt nintendo and sony )

Ludens

06-13-2010, 11:30

A valid point, but this seems actually be the case with R:TW - four years after it's release - which evidently has a fairly thriving fan/modding community with major projects both announced and released. On the other hand - are eg. the 'hardcore' EB I players really statistically representative?

I doubt it. EB has been downloaded 10.000 times, but most of those probably played the mod for a month or two and then moved on. How many actually played the mod for longer than a year? I also wonder if the popularity of R:TW mods has something to do with dissatisfaction about the way the series is going. Every new instalment has ambitious new features, yet the developers can't get the basics right: balancing and A.I.

That's quite a critical point - I completely agree with you that such an 'analysis', if based on rather shaky, probably unrealistic assumptions about expected profits shouldn't be taken very seriously - but this article (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25743), focusing on console games,as well as the second half of this article (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27193/Activision_Social_Monetization_Very_Speculative_Digital_Sales_Up.php) could possibly clear up the issue - and the underlying economical/PR concepts - a bit (insofar as these aspects are transferable to PC strategy games...).

Interesting. I admit I am out of depth here too.

What if DLC should rather be seen as instrument of an medial 'image policy', creating the illusion of 'customers/fanbase support' in an desperate attempt to reestablish the endangered 'qualitative superiority' of SEGA/Activision?

Possible, although it would be akin to solving a problem by denying it. Then again, corporations aren't always rational about threads towards their position, as Activision's boss has proved. ~;)

EDIT: A rather interesting and critical blog entry about 'Sun Tzu as an AI Design Guide?' (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DaveMark/20100610/5337/Sun_Tzu_as_an_AI_Design_Guide.php)

I quite agree. Sun Tzu's work is not innovative: it is timeless because he wrote down the basic principles of strategy. For that matter: the A.I. of the original Shogun was based on Sun Tzu. Did CA forget about him in the games they made in between? Or are they just attempting to restore the fanbase's faith in their ability to produce a strong A.I. opponent?

darius_d

06-13-2010, 13:19

Well, I think that modding-friendly games will win eventually. There are two economic reasons behind that.

First - development costs and brand loyalty. Simply, it is too costly for developers to do all the job by themselves, something will be neglected. Workload is expensive and they never have a chance to beat community about that. Empire and Napoleon - two buggy unmoddable titles couldn't prove it better. Instead, they should create a solid platform on which community could add up as they wish.

Second - the business model. The coming future is dramatically changing, apparently everything is going into the cloud, especially for pc (note shogun 2 will be released on pc only).
Sooner or later buying CD will be replaced, perhaps by subscriptions. So this should be a good news for modding-friendly games. Subscription model seems to suit best to attract huge crowds willing to play their favorite era for a long period of time, as RTW proved.

So, if we talk about Shogun 2 I hope they are aware of some great mods created by the community.
But first of all, I hope they noticed competition - like Takeda 3 by Magitech. Technically, it's annoyingly outdated, flawed and unpolished but conceptually much superior game than CA titles.

geala

07-01-2010, 13:41

Just a personal note on game selling economy: the only reason I bought M2:TW Kingdoms was that I heard it will be needed for EB II. At least a small financial aid to the developers by a mod. :wink3:
And I also later bought E:TW because I like the timeframe and I expected mods. I'm not sure I will buy S2:TW cause the setting is not very interesting for me and modding may be not possible. Let's wait and see.

Omegoa

07-31-2010, 19:41

Satyros

08-01-2010, 04:55

I still haven't bought ETW .

I've finished - vanilla- MTW2 with every nation on vh/vh ( and I must admit it was a better experience than the -vanilla- RTW one ) .

I still prefer EB .

I am currently obsessed with Paradox games , especially EUIII .

After that I don't know if I'll be able to go back to "new-generation-TW-non-A.I."

Shame they alienate the modding community , such a shame .

Even more so if they finally get to release a decent A.I. , at last .

Satyros

P.S. : Not knowing where this would be appropriately posted , I'll say it here :

Keep up the good work guys ( and gals - ? - ) ! Thank you for your time and effort . Υγεία .

Skullheadhq

08-01-2010, 14:13

I've finished - vanilla- MTW2 with every nation on vh/vh ( and I must admit it was a better experience than the -vanilla- RTW one )
It was a little bit easy, I reconstructed WWI with the HRE and blitzed Russia within notime but had lots of fun slaughtering Frenchies at 'Verdun'. But I liked RTW vanilla way better, just landing with the Pharaohs army in Gaul at the beginning was wonderful.[

I am currently obsessed with Paradox games , especially EUIII .
Huh, me too, I preordered Victoria 2 today.

SillySirius

08-03-2010, 04:13

M:TW2 was the last CA game i bought and will buy.

I've gone back to playing FPS's,for the most part,as i prefer the realism where i have to faceshoot a guy 6 times to put them down.

Bucefalo

08-03-2010, 20:58

In my opinion the problem with recent total war games is that they try to cater the casual gamer (not used in a derogative way, what i refer to are the players that prefer simple games for having fun, not too in depth complex games) and they make their games accordingly. Bad AI, simple controls, unrealistic speed of units, units with "magic powers", limited role play and character advancement, etc. all those are faults that i think the recent CA games have. On the good side they have better graphics, naval battles, and... i think i already said better graphics. If you look at what has improved since M2TW, it is all things that enter throught the eyes, are simple and quick. CA is not adding complexity and more realism, but simplifying things and making them more stream lined so casual players don´t get frustrated playing it.

I remember when i first started playing EB, i was overwhelmed by all the options (english is not my native tongue, so that complicated things as well), and only by continued practice is that i managed to understand how goverments type worked, or why my character gained bad traits all the time. I ended loving all the complexity, and now as i am used to playing mods in general, when i play a vanilla CA game, i find it very lackluster. Another example is when i started playing EUIII, i was completely lost and i still don´t know all the tricks of it but only the basics of how the game works.

In short what i mean to say is that the recent total war games seems to be more simple each time, with less depth and complexity, so that casual players do not feel frustrated and overwhelmed when playing it. This won´t make happy to those that love complex games, like many mod users, but now CA is limiting modding as well, therefore making their games much harder to mod and therefore less attractive to the people that wants complex games and not simply a point and click thing, to use a metaphor.

WinsingtonIII

08-04-2010, 21:35

I know it's blasphemy to say so on a TW forum (where at the mention of CA in a halfway positive light everyone starts screaming bloody murder), but yes, there have been some advances in realism and depth in ETW and NTW. Do you know what the most utterly unrealistic Total War game is in vanilla form? Rome: Total War. That was the game with Roman ninjas, pink pajamaed Parthians, head hurlers, screaming women, the absurd berserker ability, flaming pigs, the ancient Egyptians in 272 BC, AI so stubborn you could reduce them to one region and they would not declare peace, units with such low morale that they broke after 30 seconds of combat or one cavalry charge. It was ridiculous.

Let's be honest, the diplomacy in ETW and NTW is better. Nations will actually offer peace if you are kicking their butt, or at least they will accept it when you offer it. Unit morale has been upped so battles actually may last more than 2 minutes total. Fantasy units have been drastically reduced (although clone units for European factions are the new problem in ETW). Historical accuracy in general is a bit better than in RTW and M2TW, probably in part because it's a much easier era to research.

There has, of course, been movement backwards as well. For instance, I can never bring myself to get attached to characters in ETW and NTW, they just lack personality. But let's be honest, part of that is the time frame. With a professional army you don't have a family tree and hereditary succession for your generals. The AI still blows in most respects as well, and the reaction against modding is of course the most tragic loss.

I'm not happy with CA's reaction against modding, but I think that in many realms (other than the AI and moddability), vanilla NTW and patched ETW are improvements over vanilla M2TW and RTW. The main reason I don't play them a lot is because of the time period, which I am not a fan of. We need to remember that comparing EB to vanilla ETW makes no sense. If we want to measure the company's progress, we should be comparing vanilla RTW to ETW, and in that regard, it's undeniable that ETW features better historical accuracy of the two.

Sorry about the rant, I just think people tend to associate RTW with EB too much and it clouds their judgment in evaluating the vanilla game.

Satyros

10-20-2011, 11:12

Since I consider myself to be mostly a ( mainly lurking and coming and going ) part of this particular "sub-community" within the greater community of the .org , I'd like to express here that after about 10h of STW2 , I am pleased with the improvements in the gameplay .

After many , many years .

It has been a while and I am really , really , happy with the direction the gameplay is taking ( see below ) .

It seems a greatly promising game and I really hope that the modders can work on it ( be it EB team or any other team with their dedication to perfection in mod making ) .

I've only explored a bit the normal difficulty setting and I was able to have diplomatic relations and even a couple of allies showing up to help against a foe !

Good work CA , thanks !

Ah , it feels good to have a good TW game installed .

Satyros

XSamatan

10-20-2011, 15:31

Satyros

10-20-2011, 20:04

A sad fact indeed .

Still , I wrote the above since I have complained in these forums on many occasions about the poor quality of the recent TW titles .

It would be unfair of me not to say anything .

But it's really sad that the games don't support the modding community anymore . Perhaps they do not agree with us* who think that the good people of the modding community extend the life of the TW games far beyond the expected norm , or perhaps they do not perceive this to be a positive thing ?

Satyros

*not a modder , just a good friend of the modding community and their work

Satyros

10-20-2011, 21:02

And more on the subject of silly questions :

Anyone knows the key for using the alternate weapon of the units ( if they have one ? )

Satyros

Leon the Batavian

10-20-2011, 22:29

Would be better if CA releases a R2TW and see that their buyers (fans) are mod-fanatics and give the community tools with their new game. Or they hire the EB team so no tools are needed after release............

A man can dream can he not ?

TheLastDays

10-21-2011, 08:30

Sadly, Shogun, Napoleon and Empire don't allow total conversions, so unless CA gives out modding tools, a modder develops them himself or a new game that is moddable is created the chance for a total conversion is very small.

XSamatan

Well, even if there was an EB III on the S2TW engine (I know it's been declined but never say never :tongue: ), we're not certain how well the AI would adapt. I mean, I'm as surprised by the really good campaing AI of S2 but, let's face it, the linearity of movement and the rather small scale of the map help it a lot. I don't know if it would perform as well on the wide steppes, in the plains of Europe and the wide areas in Africa, the Middle East, etc...