Gjergj Kastrioti aka Skanderbeg aka İskender Bey

[LeftEyeNine]

I have come across the hero after a friend showing it to me as yet another proof of what "official history" kept us from hearing back in schools.

Of an amazing background tells the Wiki article here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg), and I wanted to know what may be wrong, dubious or totally true about him also looking to listen to you about him.

Also, among the notes under Legacy title of the article, I found this particularly entertaining:



On October 27, 2005, the United States Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress) issued a resolution "honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Kastrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation.


Is that any true ? :beam:

[BasharCaptWill]

Is that any true ?
Don't know anything about the resolution but rest of what you are asking is quite true. If you would like more detailed explanation let me know.

[PanzerJaeger]

-idiot speak - It is ridiculous that America's congress involves itself in these types of disputes between peoples thousands of miles away for a few votes, but it does.

[Azathoth]

The Albanian lobby (yes, there is an Albanian lobby), is of course embittered over that whole genocide thing

Armenian.

[LeftEyeNine]

Don't know anything about the resolution but rest of what you are asking is quite true. If you would like more detailed explanation let me know.

Please do so although I've read whole wiki article already. :bow:

[PanzerJaeger]

Armenian.

Indeed. ~:doh:

[Sarmatian]

I have come across the hero after a friend showing it to me as yet another proof of what "official history" kept us from hearing back in schools.

Of an amazing background tells the Wiki article here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg), and I wanted to know what may be wrong, dubious or totally true about him also looking to listen to you about him.

Also, among the notes under Legacy title of the article, I found this particularly entertaining:



Is that any true ? :beam:

In short - no. Skenderbeg was a capable military leader but he definitely didn't save Western Europe from Ottoman occupation. What he managed to do was to prevent Ottomans to incorporate his territory during his reign but that has more to do with the fact that Ottomans had bigger fishes to fry and that in fact there was not much to rule there. Poor land, ruled by tribal leaders, held together to an extent through Skenderbeg's influence and strong personality. Basically, Albania remained independent until Ottomans decided to it was worth the effort of conquering it. It changed nothing in the bigger picture.

Similar to Montenegro later on. Montenegro didn't remain independent (or semi independent, depending on the time period we're talking about) because of military skill or bravery but because Ottomans didn't think it was worth the effort.

[Brenus]

And the fact you needed two armies to keep Montenegro quiet and it produced only to feed one.:laugh4:
So the Turks just smash the Montenegrin, had a tribute paid the first year, payed later and later then not and feign to "forget" it, then same scenario:sweatdrop:.

[BasharCaptWill]

Originally Posted by Sarmatian
In short - no. Skenderbeg was a capable military leader but he definitely didn't save Western Europe from Ottoman occupation. What he managed to do was to prevent Ottomans to incorporate his territory during his reign but that has more to do with the fact that Ottomans had bigger fishes to fry and that in fact there was not much to rule there. Poor land, ruled by tribal leaders, held together to an extent through Skenderbeg's influence and strong personality. Basically, Albania remained independent until Ottomans decided to it was worth the effort of conquering it. It changed nothing in the bigger picture.

It would be a bit hard to deny that completely and to claim that it changed nothing in the bigger picture. Afterall Ottomans were not able to gain any tactical victory during Skanderberg lifetime and wast number of Ottoman soldiers was killed there in vain. During that time the Ottoman expansion came to the halt and that delayed Ottoman expansion for sure. I would also not go that far and claim that
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Albania remained independent until Ottomans decided to it was worth the effort of conquering it.

However I would like to add that Skanderbeg was not alone figure. There were Vlad III, Stephen the Great, Janos Hunyadi, Matthias Corvinus and a bit earlier Tsar Lazar (of Serbia). They all contributed to the fact that Western Europe did not come under Ottoman rule.

[Sarmatian]

It would be a bit hard to deny that completely and to claim that it changed nothing in the bigger picture. Afterall Ottomans were not able to gain any tactical victory during Skanderberg lifetime and wast number of Ottoman soldiers was killed there in vain. During that time the Ottoman expansion came to the halt and that delayed Ottoman expansion for sure. I would also not go that far and claim that .

I'd like to hear about that "vast number of soldiers". Interestingly enough, at the time of Skenderbeg, Ottomans conquered Constantinople, launching one of the biggest sieges if the middle ages, involving cca. 100,000 troops.

However I would like to add that Skanderbeg was not alone figure. There were Vlad III, Stephen the Great, Janos Hunyadi, Matthias Corvinus and a bit earlier Tsar Lazar (of Serbia). They all contributed to the fact that Western Europe did not come under Ottoman rule.[/QUOTE]

With the exception of Janos Hunyadi, no one there is worth mentioning. Western Europe didn't come under Ottoman rule more because of Ottoman overextension than anything else, and later due to them falling behind technologically. That is of course debatable, but in my opinion, during the middle ages, Ottomans had no match in military and political organization in the western world...

[BasharCaptWill]

I'd like to hear about that "vast number of soldiers". Interestingly enough, at the time of Skenderbeg, Ottomans conquered Constantinople, launching one of the biggest sieges if the middle ages, involving cca. 100,000 troops.

''Vast'' in terms of European armies of that era. Regarding the number you mentioned you know well that Ottomans had a large pool of people.


With the exception of Janos Hunyadi, no one there is worth mentioning.
We have different opinions regarding this matter.


Western Europe didn't come under Ottoman rule more because of Ottoman overextension than anything else, and later due to them falling behind technologically. That is of course debatable, but in my opinion, during the middle ages, Ottomans had no match in military and political organization in the western world...
Indeed. I would add this as one of the reasons but would not solely focus on it.

[LeftEyeNine]

I'd like to underline the evolution of the thread's main concern into asking "So is it that Ottomans did not want it enough or Arnavut İskender Bey was the main reason behind their halt ?" and would like fellows to keep contributing in accordance with this line please. I love what I've read so far indeed. :bow:

[Sarmatian]

Well, the point is. during Skenderbeg's time, Ottomans have already established their control over Serbia and Bulgaria, two strongest powers of the peninsula and were pushing into central Europe, into Hungary with mixed successes. Also they managed to conquer Constantinople and to strengthen their grip on other turkic rulers in Anatolia.

At the same time, some parts of the Balkan peninsula, mostly undeveloped lands, with little centralized rule remained out of their reach.

In my opinion, this proves that:

1) Ottomans could have conquered Albania if they wanted

2) Ottomans expansion wasn't halted during Skenderbeg's time.

Unfortunately, this is really just a nationalistic tripe, so common in the Balkans. That is not to say that Kastrioti wasn't a capable military and political leader. Uniting Albanian tribal leaders and getting them to do what you say, even temporarily, is a feat in itself.

[Brenus]

Well, the truth is at this period the Ottoman Empire extension halted only because succession problems as this Empire never succeeded to resolve this problem peacefully. War between potential successors was the rule to determine who would be the next ruler…
That is true after Kosovo Polje when Murad died on the Battlefield, the main concern of Bayazit “Yildim” was not to finish off the Serbs but to go to kill is brother before he knew about their father’s death and be prepared, starting a pattern that will be followed by his own sons and their successors (see Mehmet II or Selim the Fierce)
Or delay offered by invaders attacking the Turks as Tamerlan…

[Nogun]

I'm sorry,but when I read Novi Sad, Serbia I couldn't help but laugh,of course you try to defame and downplay Skanderbeg's military success,because you cannot prove he was a Serb,you try to lower his glory.Even though Mehemd II,the very man who conquered the greatest city in the World at that time (Constantinople) and destroyed the Byzantine Empire,could not defeat Skanderbeg.Fact is the Ottoman advance was completely stagnated during Skanderbeg's lifetime and they never managed to beat him.The only 2 battles Albanians lost against they Ottomans happened because Skanderbeg was absent in those battles.The Ottomans failed to take Kruje for 3 times and lost tens of thousands of soldiers trying to do so.You fail to give intelligent arguments about why the Ottomans couldn't win over Skanderbeg.You say they didn't care enough.THE SULTAN HIMSELF WENT TO BATTLE.How much more dedication do you want?Face it,Skanderbeg was a leading military figure of his time,along with Janos Hunyadi and Vlad III,while the Serbs were completely decimated after the battle of Kosovo.

[Yesugey]

Here is a big secret guys, I am suprised no one told before: Skandenberg is a great leader because he was an Ottoman General.

He was one of the commanders of the Janissaries, He was conquering the land for Ottomans. Then he asked for more title and money and rejected, he felt vengeance and switched to the other side.
Since he knows Ottomans best tricks, where their camps are, how their armies works and what the weak points are.. He put a deadly blow.

At past, people were not divided as nations, there was no "Albanian independence", or "Fighting for Europe and Christendom".
People fight for the kings or money. If you call Albania as an Albanian land, the Albanian king would kill you, because the land belongs to him. Not Albanians.

Another debate is, about Albania at those times, yes it was not number one priority for anyone, that's correct. But it was on the way of Western Europe, so i's not like "doesn't worth conquering, it was a foothold.

Ottomans conquered the land, left it to local lord, Skandenberg. And through history, when local lords get disappointed, tried to take the land for their own most of the time. Not for Albanians, not for Christendom. For themselves.
It's actually extremely similar story of Vlad Dracul and Arminius(Hermann). then again, Ottoman Empire is extremely similar with Roman Empire.