View Full Version : $1 trillion in minerals discovered in Afghanistan
Sasaki Kojiro
06-15-2010, 00:57
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html?emc=na
WASHINGTON — The United States has discovered nearly $1 trillion in untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan, far beyond any previously known reserves and enough to fundamentally alter the Afghan economy and perhaps the Afghan war itself, according to senior American government officials.
The previously unknown deposits — including huge veins of iron, copper, cobalt, gold and critical industrial metals like lithium — are so big and include so many minerals that are essential to modern industry that Afghanistan could eventually be transformed into one of the most important mining centers in the world, the United States officials believe.
Can someone more informed than me explain what this will lead to? Is it a great thing for Afghanistan?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-15-2010, 01:02
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html?emc=na
Can someone more informed than me explain what this will lead to? Is it a great thing for Afghanistan?
It will lead to an even more protracted war, as well as increased Russian and Chinese interest; it will also almost certainly mean yet another military dictatorship, backed by one of the above.
To say nothing of the envirnmental damage caused by strip mining.
Can someone more informed than me explain what this will lead to? Is it a great thing for Afghanistan?
If it is true, it means there is an abundance of potentional wealth and investment. However, the problems lie in who controls these investments, as it might end up being American multinationalists, who only give a small slice to the Afghanistan authorities. Also, it would spark interests of any of the local warlords, who want a slice of the pie as well.
It depends on how it is handled.
To say nothing of the envirnmental damage caused by strip mining.
Luckily, Afghanistan doesn't have much of an "environment" in the first place. It is basically just desert and sand.
gaelic cowboy
06-15-2010, 01:12
This is basically a disaster for the Afghan people if it is true. The warlords will start up again and situation will be that the fighting will be funded by drugs and mining.
If you want to save Afghanistan bury that report in the biggest deepest bunker you can find.
PanzerJaeger
06-15-2010, 02:18
These are the times that I wish we were a more traditional empire. Afghanistan may turn a profit in the long run, but it would certainly not be moral to take it from the Afghan people. (:rolleyes:)Hopefully we can at least secure some sweetheart contracts for American companies, but it looks like China is already beating us at that game. American values are so frustrating at times.
It's bad for Afghanistan. The Soviets knew about a lot of this during their occupation, but couldn't exploit it. I'm sure US companies are salivating over this, but it will be to no avail. The Afghanis want us out, and will not allow resource exploitation without lots of casualties and expense. If anybody can get it, it will probably be China. Just look at a map, getting large quantities of ore out would be impossible. Landlocked nation with no rail infrastructure, and exceeding testy natives. It's going to make some warlords mighty rich though.
Anything that will turn the Afghan economy from that produces nothing other than raw opium, into something useful is a plus in my book.
Prince Cobra
06-15-2010, 05:22
It won't change anything. Like in many African countries that are rich with diamonds, silver and gold. And yes, the warlords may try to exploit it, so that they diversify their opium exports.
Military dictatorship... this is very hard to happen in Afghanistan for the simple reason of no centralised government.
Uh oh, not good, not good at all
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-15-2010, 08:34
Luckily, Afghanistan doesn't have much of an "environment" in the first place. It is basically just desert and sand.
Oh, of course they do.
You think there's nothing alive in the desert? Anyway, parts of Afganistan are potentially very fertile; they're just mismanged. Where do you think they grow all the Opium and Hash?
It's going to make some warlords mighty rich though.
Nah.
https://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu150/Joltie/China-Afghan.png
Going to make some warlords mighty powerful, this is really bad news for the common Afghan and the Isaf, this has corporate proxy warfare written all over it we better leave right now. Sorry Afghans you guys are so screwed now.
Vladimir
06-15-2010, 12:38
People here are treating this like oil. Unlike oil, extracting these minerals will require greater cooperation, infrastructure, and development.
Remember that all of you doomsayers are saying that a poor Afghanistan is good.
edyzmedieval
06-15-2010, 12:50
This.Is.Very.Bad
I'm not saying it's doom for the Afghans, I'm just saying the war will be even more vicious than it is right now considering the Talibans are literally sitting atop huge resources.
This won't stop Afghanistan being poor.
rory_20_uk
06-15-2010, 12:59
Right, so the government can pay for the troops helping in kind - as well as any monies already spent.
~:smoking:
Tellos Athenaios
06-15-2010, 13:15
People here are treating this like oil. Unlike oil, extracting these minerals will require greater cooperation, infrastructure, and development.
Remember that all of you doomsayers are saying that a poor Afghanistan is good.
No the doom sayers probably mean that these deposits will be like the blood diamonds of Africa. Remember those? How much wealth did end up with the local people rather than Western arms industry?
KukriKhan
06-15-2010, 14:21
In other regional news, The Only American Actually Searching For OBL (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/10317158.stm) , a 40 or 50 or 52 year old (depending which report you read) California civilian construction guy, was arrested in Pakistan, after slipping away from his security guard.
The al-Qaeda leader is the world's most-wanted man, with the US offering a reward of up to $25m (£17m) for information leading to his capture.
'God is with me'
Police say Mr Faulkner, who is from California, arrived as a tourist in Chitral on 2 June and was assigned a security escort before vanishing on Monday evening.
Skullheadhq
06-15-2010, 14:51
He had a pistol, dagger and a sword and was carrying night-vision equipment as well as Christian literature.
Mr Khan said that when Faulkner was asked if he felt he had a chance of tracing Bin Laden, he replied: "God is with me, and I am confident I will be successful in killing him.
a 40 or 50 or 52 year old (depending which report you read) California civilian construction guy
Haha, I can already imagine him, the poor redneck in Pakistan.
People here are treating this like oil. Unlike oil, extracting these minerals will require greater cooperation, infrastructure, and development.
Remember that all of you doomsayers are saying that a poor Afghanistan is good.
Uncomplicated is good and it's a mess enough as it is. How betrayed are they going to feel when none of this money ever reaches them. And it won't reach them they are sooooo screwed its going to eat them alive, hello to 20 more years of hell.
Wow, wasn't one of the problems in Afghanistan that they have no jobs and all the unemployed people join the taliban because the taliban pay them?
This should be a possibility to give the people jobs so they can earn their money in an honest way and turn away from rich radicals. Of course that's not going to work if companies from other countries just invade with their own workforce and don't employ afghans.
Seamus Fermanagh
06-15-2010, 15:58
Wow, wasn't one of the problems in Afghanistan that they have no jobs and all the unemployed people join the taliban because the taliban pay them?
This should be a possibility to give the people jobs so they can earn their money in an honest way and turn away from rich radicals. Of course that's not going to work if companies from other countries just invade with their own workforce and don't employ afghans.
Just ups the cost of the Taliban recruiting efforts. That will no doubt hit the pocketbooks of some Sauds and Emiratis a little harder, but that's merely an annoyance with China, Japan, Europe, and the USA shelling out the dollars. Sorry, I think that sounded cynical.....
Wow, wasn't one of the problems in Afghanistan that they have no jobs and all the unemployed people join the taliban because the taliban pay them?
This should be a possibility to give the people jobs so they can earn their money in an honest way and turn away from rich radicals. Of course that's not going to work if companies from other countries just invade with their own workforce and don't employ afghans.
Gawd I am growing soft, but yes. Give them a fair chance at least we are fat enough as it is. Not just us I can think of a whole lot worse, but still. But it won't be us peeling their resources, China will, them beards might even start missing us.
No the doom sayers probably mean that these deposits will be like the blood diamonds of Africa. Remember those? How much wealth did end up with the local people rather than Western arms industry?
Apples and Oranges
Those African countries didn't have 120,000 NATO troops occupying the country to artificially prop up the government.
Centurion1
06-15-2010, 18:24
None of you reckon on the impact americas presence directly in the affairs of the region mean. Andof course taliban recruitment is going to suffer. Most afghanis will choose a stable legal job over being taliban trash.
Vladimir
06-15-2010, 18:26
Wow, wasn't one of the problems in Afghanistan that they have no jobs and all the unemployed people join the taliban because the taliban pay them?
This should be a possibility to give the people jobs so they can earn their money in an honest way and turn away from rich radicals. Of course that's not going to work if companies from other countries just invade with their own workforce and don't employ afghans.
Thank you.
This will also encourage the creation of skilled labor. It's cheaper to have the locals do the work.
Well, in some ways this will show now whether the people in power who claim they want to help Afghanistan, actually mean it or not, the west already has the country occupied of sorts but if we truly care about the afghans winning, gaining respect for democracy and stabilizing their own country then we shouldn't mind them working for Chinese companies either, free market and all that.
And heck, if one of dem warlords goes businessman and opens his own mining company, why not? Of course corruption etc. can cause problems but it still sounds better to me than the status quo. :shrug:
al Roumi
06-16-2010, 12:11
Can someone more informed than me explain what this will lead to? Is it a great thing for Afghanistan?
This is great news! Afghanistan will get to be a new Siera Leone!
Well, in some ways this will show now whether the people in power who claim they want to help Afghanistan, actually mean it or not, the west already has the country occupied of sorts but if we truly care about the afghans winning, gaining respect for democracy and stabilizing their own country then we shouldn't mind them working for Chinese companies either, free market and all that.
And heck, if one of dem warlords goes businessman and opens his own mining company, why not? Of course corruption etc. can cause problems but it still sounds better to me than the status quo. :shrug:
I don't think that what anybody wants matters anymore, read MJD impressions, two guys who shot rival clan didn't think they did anything wrong. If I would be absolutely ruthless I'd use that. And now it turns out it's the richest soil on earth. Screwed, very.
I'm with Frag. You guys who say this is a good thing: Show me a third world mineral rich country in which any significant proportion of the wealth trickles down to the natives. Even if you can, convince me that this can happen somewhere as unstable as Afghanistan.
Vladimir
06-16-2010, 13:58
I'm with Frag. You guys who say this is a good thing: Show me a third world mineral rich country in which any significant proportion of the wealth trickles down to the natives. Even if you can, convince me that this can happen somewhere as unstable as Afghanistan.
Enough qualifiers there?
Were they "third world" before or after the resource discovery?
I'm with Frag. You guys who say this is a good thing: Show me a third world mineral rich country in which any significant proportion of the wealth trickles down to the natives. Even if you can, convince me that this can happen somewhere as unstable as Afghanistan.
How many third world countries were US colonies when the resources were discovered? Of course a lot depends on the stability of the country but I'm not sure how much the resources change that, if the Taliban come back they may very well not let anyone else mine there anyway. :shrug:
al Roumi
06-17-2010, 14:42
I'm with Frag. You guys who say this is a good thing: Show me a third world mineral rich country in which any significant proportion of the wealth trickles down to the natives. Even if you can, convince me that this can happen somewhere as unstable as Afghanistan.
Bang on the nail.
Paul Collier's most recent book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Plundered-Planet-Reconcile-Prosperity-Nature/dp/1846142237/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276782017&sr=8-1) (just released) is all about this very issue...
Mineral wealth is as near as damn a curse for many low income/developing countries.
rory_20_uk
06-17-2010, 15:21
As there is no need to develop anything else and those at the top get all the kickbacks they need from the industry.
The Chinese would simply get a map, mark the deposits and routes out the country. They'd then instigate a plan where anyone unauthorised in a zone close to these places would be shot on sight (1 mile or so either side), ideally paying off whoever controls the land they want to go through. Convoys to get the goods out, protection at the site. Hell, even bring in labour to ensure no infiltration.
The Taliban might be OK with this as it's no interference and hard currency.
~:smoking:
Bang on the nail.
Paul Collier's most recent book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Plundered-Planet-Reconcile-Prosperity-Nature/dp/1846142237/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276782017&sr=8-1) (just released) is all about this very issue...
Mineral wealth is as near as damn a curse for many low income/developing countries.
Customefs who bought this book also bought this, or something like that. We are so conned http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Games-Story-Modern-Times/dp/0670918962/ref=pd_sim_b_1
Enough qualifiers there?
Were they "third world" before or after the resource discovery?
I think that serves as an answer to my request.
Tellos Athenaios
06-18-2010, 17:51
$1 trillion, or perhaps not (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/18/afghanistan_mineral_report/).
I heard $1 trillion is the price of a Mars Bar in the Eurozone next week.
gaelic cowboy
06-18-2010, 19:40
Once the PIIGYS default and sink the Euro a Mars will then be worth 5 trillion $ cos Ireland will be paying Germany in worthless Paddy Pounds same as the rest of the PIIGYS
Not even a tenth of our debt. :no:
Vladimir
06-18-2010, 20:09
Not even a tenth of our debt. :no:
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=usa+gdp
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gnp_mktp_pp_cd&idim=country:USA&dl=en&hl=en&q=usa+gnp
gaelic cowboy
06-18-2010, 20:12
That graph shows GNP bigger than GDP how?????
Vladimir
06-18-2010, 20:45
That graph shows GNP bigger than GDP how?????
:shrug:
I'm just sick of people whining about the national debt when we have numbers like that. In theory, we could pay off our entire debt in one year.
gaelic cowboy
06-18-2010, 20:48
That is true even Ireland could pay off the debt, however we would have to basically not spend any money for a year thats not gonna happen.
That GDP/GNP missmatch is still bugging me you only get to spend GNP not your GDP so by your graph the USA has the ability to spend more than it makes??????
Vladimir
06-18-2010, 20:50
that is true even Ireland could pay off the debt, however we would have to basically not spend any money for a year thats not gonna happen.
Exactly.
We have yet to see how this mineral find plays out. I'm just looking forward to them finding their way into the international market.
gaelic cowboy
06-18-2010, 20:57
Exactly.
We have yet to see how this mineral find plays out. I'm just looking forward to them finding their way into the international market.
China is already in Afghanistan in a few copper mines defended by NATO troops, read it somewhere while back so the USA can forget about getting the majority of the contracts.
Tellos Athenaios
06-18-2010, 21:08
I heard $1 trillion is the price of a Mars Bar in the Eurozone next week.
Hmm that doesn't look good for the USA, does it?
Vladimir
06-18-2010, 21:57
Hmm that doesn't look good for Scotland, does it?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.canada.com/topics/travel/guides/maps/wg-scotland-3754-400x300.gif&imgrefurl=http://www2.canada.com/topics/travel/guides/lp.html%3Fdestination%3Dscotland&usg=__ItYoFTq-Zu9BUaEv1_53X5NeGBM=&h=300&w=400&sz=66&hl=en&start=2&itbs=1&tbnid=-6pfet-AllzsDM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dscotland%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26tbs%3Disch:1
Fixed.
Centurion1
06-18-2010, 22:34
Slypsy how many mineral rich countries had a direct us, boots on the ground, presence?
Not really something to be sprouting when Afghanistan is getting worse, Cent.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10356741.stm
Slypsy how many mineral rich countries had a direct us, boots on the ground, presence?
Sorry, does that make a difference?
Slypsy how many mineral rich countries had a direct us, boots on the ground, presence?
What do you think is going to happen when they are supplied with high-tech from China and Russia to secure these recources, and they will. This is going to be 100% hell on earth, if it wasn't already.
Centurion1
06-19-2010, 13:57
Of course there's a rise in violence.
aa there's a war
B the terrorists see weakness right now and now Obama ain't gonna make as large a commitment as bush would have to the war.
But the kind of violence that was occuring before the invasion is declining there sure aren't as many stonings in soccer stadiums now.
Yes slypsy it does matter. Because whatever you say about us this will be attempted to deal with fairly, while I am not a fan of this concept it might be best to nationalize the industry ain a nation as effed up as afganistan. Then again the national government is as corrupt as the rest of the country.
Frag no idea what your talking about.
Personally if we really want to make afghanistan a success we should institute it as a territory of the us and use draconian law to keep the peace. :laugh:
Tellos Athenaios
06-19-2010, 14:07
No of course Obama isn't. He's made more of an commitment already than Bush ever did, or do those extra troops count for nothing?
The kind of violence which occurred before the invasion is still very much present or do you doubt that the Warlords were above assassinating their opponents?
Fragony mentions a scenario which to some extent is already occurring (Chinese exploit some copper mines), which is basically that the local kleptocrats auction off the sites to a foreign investor who then, à la Shell in Nigeria tries to extract the valuables as cheaply and quickly as possible before the local insurgents kill off all miners _again_ and they have to deal with the _next_ kleptocrat. This of course comes at a cost to the Afghans, environment, and of course the value of these sites degrades a lot in the process.
But you may want to read that register article I linked to. It contains some more things to think about.
Pretty obvious, corporate backing of warlords completily tearing artificial borders apart , how can you not see that comming.
And yes my leftist mucas I know this sounds mighty stupid as that goes on everywhere.
Centurion1
06-19-2010, 14:18
Tellos so What he made a surge. He also made a wothdrawaltable which IMO in a situation like this is very foolish. At least to go public with-it.
Frag at least there would actually be something to exploit, plus to properly mine you need infrastructure and Afghans could certainly use some
I'm not saying this is is going to be a good thing for Afghanistan just that it could be
Tellos so What he made a surge. He also made a wothdrawaltable which IMO in a situation like this is very foolish. At least to go public with-it.
Frag at least there would actually be something to exploit, plus to properly mine you need infrastructure and Afghans could certainly use some
I'm not saying this is is going to be a good thing for Afghanistan just that it could be
It COULD be good for Afghanistan as a country, but you shouldn't think in nations that's a western concept it's useless, in reality it exists only on a map.
Centurion1
06-19-2010, 16:59
Don't say ridiculous things. Nation is not a uniquely western concept.Afghanistan does not represent the entire eastern hemisphere
Don't say ridiculous things. Nation is not a uniquely western concept.Afghanistan does not represent the entire eastern hemisphere
What is so rediculous about it
Centurion1
06-20-2010, 05:03
Exactly what I said.
Which isn't very much if you don't mind. Explain to me how this will get less chaotic when a trillion dollar worth of minerals have just been discovered, because I don't see how.
I believe the point Frag is making is that Afghanistan exists as a nation state solely because we say it does.
I thought that was pretty obvious, but yeah.
Centurion1
06-20-2010, 15:59
If you read what i you would know I think your statement that nation states is a purely western concept is false
Read some more remainder deleted
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10359548.stm
The 20billion wars.
Centurion1
06-20-2010, 22:37
Fragony well in between my bible readings and gun shows I managed to pick up a book or two on interaction between the east and west. And nowhere have I read that the concept of nation is a singularily western one. In fact there are plenty of ancient nation states that were not located in the western hemisphere. You could argue in fact that nation originated in the east and moved west. So I suggest to you to be able to back up your claims with talking about the entire eastern hemisphere with more than a tiny backwater.
Hosakawa Tito
06-20-2010, 22:44
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10359548.stm
The 20billion wars.
Lovely. Can't wait for Afghan's trillion $$$ in mineral wealth to start rolling in to help defray the cost in blood & treasure just like all that Iraqi oil... yeah, that's the ticket
By no means am I a conspiracy theorist, but I recalled earlier today that back in 1998, Iran was planning to invade Afghanistan as a retaliation for the murder of ten diplomats when the Taliban invaded the Iranian embassy in Mazar ê-Sharif, according to this wiki article, at least (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan%E2%80%93Iran_relations).
Following this incident, Iran almost went to war with the Taliban regions of Afghanistan but intervention by the United Nations Security Council and the United States prevented an imminent Iranian invasion.
Coincidence? I think not
Seriously though, while it might have been a pretty cool action by the UN to avoid a lot of bloodshed, that doesn't really seem likely.
Vladimir
06-22-2010, 13:03
More bad news: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/20/AR2010062003479.html?wprss=rss_nation
Oh, wait:
People's revolt
The first wave of Taliban commanders moved into Gizab in 2007. The residents were initially acquiescent, and unemployed young men in the area were eager to sign up as fighters for hire. The police's presence was nonexistent.
Sounds like these people won't need Taliban if they have jobs.
Sasaki Kojiro
06-29-2010, 00:43
It seems it may have been a bit of bogus reporting by the NYT:
http://opinion.financialpost.com/2010/06/16/afghan-mineral-bonanza-is-bogus/
Once an anomaly is identified, it takes extensive and very expensive field work to determine the best locations for drilling holes in the ground, which you have to do to calculate a volume of mineralized rock, from which you can estimate the metal contained. It usually takes at least a year, and often several, to identify targets for drilling. And drilling off a deposit of any significant size takes several more years, usually after many false starts and setbacks, because you can’t see through rock to know where the goods are.
But even after you drill off a deposit, and know how big it is, how deep it is, and roughly what’s in it, you still don’t know what it’s worth. For that, you have to conduct extensive testing on the mineralized material, not just to quantify the metals or other desirable minerals within but also to see if there are contaminants, or other elements present that can complicate, or even make impossible the economic recovery of the valuable mineral.
In short, until you know how much it would cost to mine and process any sort of mineralized material into a saleable product, like gold bars, copper concentrate, etc., you cannot say what it’s worth. Even a huge deposit of gold may be completely worthless if the grade is low and there’s lots of carbon that would mess up the gold recovery.
-edit-
As tellos noted last page:
$1 trillion, or perhaps not (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/18/afghanistan_mineral_report/).
Seamus Fermanagh
06-29-2010, 01:07
It seems it may have been a bit of bogus reporting by the NYT:...
A good point on the "potential" character. Most mines do not close because the ore is exhausted, but because the ore is no longer cost effective to extract.
CountArach
06-29-2010, 02:26
And nowhere have I read that the concept of nation is a singularily western one. In fact there are plenty of ancient nation states that were not located in the western hemisphere.
Nationalism is a Western concept that first came about concurrent with the rise in modernity and subsequent attempts to codify the normative views (ie - exclusion of foreigners and 'subversives') [Note: I accept that other readings of the rise of nationalism are possible, but all of them are reliant upon the rise of the modern age]. Ancient societies may have had some shared identity but they were not rooted in nationalism, and any attempts to show that they were are inherently tainted by our own modern preconceptions. I could accept that some very crude form of proto-nationalism may have existed across some Ancient societies, but ultimately loyalty was to an institution rather than an identity and I think that is a very important distinction to draw. Ergo, without nationalism one can't have a nationstate; one would just have a state.
What about Romans?
Many of the great Empires had identities. However, it depends if you want to break down the notion of nations as purely modern as in Italy, etc, or the old countries/kingdoms classifying as nations.
CountArach
06-29-2010, 04:00
What about Romans?
As I said, a purely institutional loyalty - though they also fall into my own category of proto-Nationalism. They were loyal to the state, not their identity. A civil war in which you could say "We are doing this because we are Romans and we want to instill strong Roman values" was unimagineable - a civil war in which you could say "The Senate is corrupt and are betraying me" [a vaguely Caesarian argument] was however, entirely possible. The essential Roman-ness of the Senate would never be doubted, and thus the discourse of Nationalism could not be applied. Then again, I think I've probably forced the point off the track somewhat...
EDIT: Oh and as for your second sentence - I would say that anything prior to the modern definition of the state where the shared identity is prime is all that we can term a 'nation'. The others would simply be 'states'. For example, a Kingdom is built on a system of loyalty to an individual who may well be foreign, as opposed to being able to share your identity with that man.
Centurion1
06-30-2010, 19:47
But a Roman identifdied strongly with his Romaness (not a word i know). He seperated himself from gauls or Dacians and identified himself as a Roman. He identified with his people and state. When they declared war on say the Helvetti they fought for the expansion of Roman power. And what about the Spartans? I would say they identified very strongly with their Polis, which while small is still a nation.
While this debate about modern nationalism existing in ancient time sis fascinating it is not actually what I said and you misconstrued my statement CA.
What I was saying was, The concept of Nations or States did in fact exist in the Eastern Hemisphere. There were states in the Orient and you do not need modern western nationalism to have a state. You just need a unified central government that rules. The people have to identify with said nation. The definition of a state is, "a group of people organized under a single government." Sure to some point they have to share a common identity and they do. Lets look at ancient persia for example. Sure they would say they are a bactrian first but then they would also say they are in fact a citizen of persia. There is your shared identity.
Tellos Athenaios
06-30-2010, 21:33
A Roman? To be a Roman (as in: inhabitant of Rome) did not mean to be a Roman Citizen; likewise the group of Roman Citizens was not confined to members of Roman families or their direct descendants. Basically it can be argued that a Roman Citizen was a notch above other statuses, an issue of prestige so people identified with it; but that did not necessarily mean that they considered themselves the same people (gens) -- consider the many mercenary soldiers from Germania who explicitly identified themselves as German on the one hand, and Roman Citizen on the other: German was a moniker which conferred prestige in the Roman military. Consider also their career pattern: rather than chosing to settle wherever they were stationed, many mercenaries preferred to earn their pension while on duty and then retire to their country of birth to settle as farmer.
EDIT: The point is that the concept of nation, nationalism is somewhat dependent on recognition from all its members as a common identity, a common bond. To continue the analogy: a Chinese mandarin would have to identify with a Chinese farmer, as much as the Chinese farmer identifies with the mandarin -- based on the notion of being member of the Chinese nation. It is more than acknowledgement of being a member of the same people, or subject of the same state. In fact, nationalism can transcend boundaries imposed by the notion of “[a] people” too.
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