Persian victories over the Greeks?

[Julianus]

Many believe that the Persians are sissis who only dared to shoot their bows from far away and can never stand up to Greek armies in close combat, largely due to the propaganda of ancient historians and Hollywood movies. However, Herodotus did state that Marathon was the first time a Greek army defeated Persians, in fact, they're even the first who really dared to try. And after the two Greco-Persian Wars, a great Athenian army was annihilated in Egypt, etc.
But I failed to find much details about those Greek crushing defeats in Persian hands, which is abundant when they won, I guess that's because most resources we have now were recorded by Greek historians.
So I want to know more about the great battles that did not end in favor of the Greeks and in detail if possible, I'm sure the historians here could help me? Thanks in advance!

[antisocialmunky]

The cause of the First Persian War was Athen's unsuccessful support of a revolt by Ionian colonies under Persian control.

[Dutchhoplite]

Thermopylae is a pretty well known Greek defeat :beam:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Thermopylae is a pretty well known Greek defeat :beam:

Of course it was their defeat. I mean, how long can a Persian stand to listen someone yelling "This is SPARTA!"? It's getting boring after few hundred times!

About the OP question, can't help you there. Hopefully someone who knows more can because this I'm interested of this as well.

[MisterFred]

I don't have the expertise to give you a good answer, especially on the battles. But I'll say that the Persians main advantage over the Greek was always money, organization, and political stability. Its only when these things begin to fall apart for Persia, and the Greeks find this out (enter Xenophon), that an invasion of Persia becomes feasible.

[Hax]

While not a victory, the Battle of the Persian Gate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Persian_Gate) was pretty damn awesome. Overall, it kinda depends who you define as "Greek". They fought some battles in Macedon, and won, but the Persian King had a habit of bribing people, rather than engaging them in combat. For example, our dearest beloved Themistocles, who defeated the Persians with his "great wall"?

He went to Persia after the Battle of Salamis and offered himself to the Persian King, for the shallow honor of being married to one of his daughters. As such, the Hellenes were known to the Persians as being untrustworthy, faithless and corrupt.

[Zarax]

Not to mention the fact that after thermopiles the spartans were often very happy recipients of persian gold...

[athanaric]

If you count te Pahlavân as Persians, well, they managed to conquer the Seleukids...

[Megas Methuselah]

If you count te Pahlavân as Persians, well, they managed to conquer the Seleukids...

But they weren't Persians.

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

And the Sassanids almost conquered the ERE, but then Herakleios had to come in. (why, oh why!)

[TancredTheNorman]

I hate to say it because I love classics but you are beating a fossilized dinosaur.

I mean that literally, nobody has any perception at all about Persian, Greek or well any type of force other then the Romans (who of course are all powerful, cruel beyond belief, evil and always in their trademark Lorica Segmentata). Sorry to ruin that part of the thread but our field here is one in need of popularity, I wish there was some type of popular conception of Greece vs Persia.

That said I wouldn't go too far in the direction you are. Persians had training in three things, riding, archery, and telling the truth (Herodotus), and their cavalry usually proved decisive in battles outside of Greece. It is not a coincidence that the Athenians at Marathan feared facing Persian Cavalry more than Persian Infantry who had already landed in force so forced a battle on the shore, nor is it a coincidence that the Spartans chose fields that could reduce the impact of cavalry. Greeks minimized the Persians greatest weapon and won as a result

The Persians themselves didn't consider their infantry equal to the Greeks and hired Greek Hoplite Mercenaries century after century. Alexander the Great was extremely brutal towards captured Hoplites and never at any point gave them any of the mercy he usually gave captured enemies.

I also wouldn't go to far into Persian Bribery, Themisticles had no choice in going to Persia, he was exiled, accepting Themisticles was I think an example of Xerxes being a good ruler not an example of bribery.

p.s. somebody had to take the conservative position in this thread.

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

I hate to say it because I love classics but you are beating a fossilized dinosaur.

I mean that literally, nobody has any perception at all about Persian, Greek or well any type of force other then the Romans (who of course are all powerful, cruel beyond belief, evil and always in their trademark Lorica Segmentata). Sorry to ruin that part of the thread but our field here is one in need of popularity, I wish there was some type of popular conception of Greece vs Persia.

That said I wouldn't go too far in the direction you are. Persians had training in three things, riding, archery, and telling the truth (Herodotus), and their cavalry usually proved decisive in battles outside of Greece. It is not a coincidence that the Athenians at Marathan feared facing Persian Cavalry more than Persian Infantry who had already landed in force so forced a battle on the shore, nor is it a coincidence that the Spartans chose fields that could reduce the impact of cavalry. Greeks minimized the Persians greatest weapon and won as a result

The Persians themselves didn't consider their infantry equal to the Greeks and hired Greek Hoplite Mercenaries century after century. Alexander the Great was extremely brutal towards captured Hoplites and never at any point gave them any of the mercy he usually gave captured enemies.

I also wouldn't go to far into Persian Bribery, Themisticles had no choice in going to Persia, he was exiled, accepting Themisticles was I think an example of Xerxes being a good ruler not an example of bribery.

p.s. somebody had to take the conservative position in this thread.

This. I was waiting for someone to make such good reasoning! Have a balloon!:balloon2:

[vartan]

But they weren't Persians.
But the people they ruled were. :inquisitive: Right? or were the people non-Persians and the rulers Persian? :help:

[athanaric]

But the people they ruled were. :inquisitive: Right? or were the people non-Persians and the rulers Persian? :help:
I take it that's a rhetorical question. The Pahlavân were indeed as Persian as the rulers of the "Holy Roman Empire" were Roman, but they effectively ruled over a successor of the Achaemenid Empire.
Among their more or less loyal subjects were many Persians, some of whom, being disaffected, overthrew the Parthian rule in 224.
While the Parthians weren't real Persians by birth, they were (to some extent) Persians by choice - and IMO choice counts more.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

1) Battle of Ephesus in 498BC: the Greek hoplites including Athenians and Eretrians get smashed by the regional cavalry contingents of the satrapies of Asia Minor.
2) Battle of Salamis (the Cyrpiot one) in 497BC: decisive defeat of the Cypriots
3) Twin battles of river Menander in 497BC: The Carians suffer two consecutive massive defeats. It is worth noting that the even though the Carians were not Greeks, they had long been assimiliated into hoplite warfare, both in terms of armament and pressumably tactics. And in the second battle they had been bolstered by the army of Miletus.
4) Battle of Malene in 493BC: The last act of the Ionian revolt, Histiaeus' mixed Aeolian/Ionian force gets scattered.
5) Battle of Memphis 456BC: Megabuzys defeats the joint Egyptian/Athenian force and reclaims Egypt for the Achaemenids

[vartan]

I take it that's a rhetorical question.
Funny.

The Pahlavân were indeed as Persian as the rulers of the "Holy Roman Empire" were Roman, but they effectively ruled over a successor of the Achaemenid Empire.
Among their more or less loyal subjects were many Persians, some of whom, being disaffected, overthrew the Parthian rule in 224.
While the Parthians weren't real Persians by birth, they were (to some extent) Persians by choice - and IMO choice counts more.
Thanks.

[NeoSpartan]

Where is The Persian Cataphract when you need him? :shrug:

[vartan]

Where is The Persian Cataphract when you need him? :shrug:
Probably chillin' @ da Holiday Inn...

P.S. Thanks Timoleon n' Welcome. That list is sweet as heck: got me started on some readings, oh yeah.

[athanaric]

Funny.
I just thought you'd know that, seeing as Persia is to Armenia what Germany is to Poland (the big bad neighbour who likes to trash you for no particular reason).

[Ibrahim]

I just thought you'd know that, seeing as Persia is to Armenia what Germany is to Poland (the big bad neighbour who likes to trash you for no particular reason).

or the Crusaders to Egyptians/levantines..

or Mongols o Iraqis

or Japanese to Koreans and Chinese..

or French to Germans in the 1700's

the list goes on....

but yeah, where did the TPC go? he made some great posts about persian/iranian military history, and culture.

[vartan]

I just thought you'd know that, seeing as Persia is to Armenia what Germany is to Poland (the big bad neighbour who likes to trash you for no particular reason).
That's a nice assumption! :laugh4: Guess you never know what it's like till you walk a mile in his shoes! :idea2: