Why are chariots so effective in killing cavalry? ( Is it historically correct?)

[VikingPower]

I have noticed that a gallic chariots take a very little time to slaughter an enemy cavalry with a little loss, so I am just wondering how it can be possible when it only involves some outdated chariot with about 1-2 skirmisher upon it and really nothing very striking about it?

I remember reading about it History that the Egyptians employed very much of a chariots but with coming of the Assyrians and their improved warfare then it was emphasised more upon a cavalry. So if historically speaking the chariots were replaced by a more mobile cavalry and chariots were only used on some special occasions as some superflous show, then how could such chariots be so much superior when fighting cavalry like the RTW vanilla and EB show.

Like if one were seeing a real historical battle and would notice a chariots attacking a cavalry then how would they manage to achieve a victory through their equipment and tactical formation?

[athanaric]

I have noticed that a gallic chariots take a very little time to slaughter an enemy cavalry with a little loss, so I am just wondering how it can be possible when it only involves some outdated chariot with about 1-2 skirmisher upon it and really nothing very striking about it?

I remember reading about it History that the Egyptians employed very much of a chariots but with coming of the Assyrians and their improved warfare then it was emphasised more upon a cavalry. So if historically speaking the chariots were replaced by a more mobile cavalry and chariots were only used on some special occasions as some superflous show, then how could such chariots be so much superior when fighting cavalry like the RTW vanilla and EB show.

Like if one were seeing a real historical battle and would notice a chariots attacking a cavalry then how would they manage to achieve a victory through their equipment and tactical formation?
Cavalry is cheaper and more cost-efficient than chariots; a horde of 100 HAs can shoot twice as many arrows as their equivalent in chariots (100 horses = 50 chariots at most). Cavalry is also more versatile regarding terrain. Riders can fight while standing still.
Those advantages are serious enough to outweigh drawbacks compared to chariots. So far for reasons why cavalry replaced chariots. They weren't better in every role, they were just far more efficient.

As to direct combat, spinning blades are not good for horsies' legs. Nor are wheels or other mechanical contraptions moving at high speed. When combating chariots, the best thing to do for a cavalry force is to try to gun them down with javelins and arrows, or to dismount and form a phalanx of some sorts.

[VikingPower]

Well in regard to cavalry attack then would it not have been just best to attack the chariots from each flanks instead of making a frontal charge against them, to negate the effects from the spinning blades and other mechanical contraptions?

However I forgot to remember the problem of the cavalry before the invention of the stirrup, so I was first thinking that the cavalry would employ a long spears against such chariots but it must have been limited to some degree or impractical.

[Arjos]

About the stirrup, I've started to believe that our modern way of riding has spoiled us XD
The cavalry charges are renowned for their powerful striking power, and also broken lances are attested, seems reasonable to me that if these episodes were possible the rider must have had a pretty firm hold on both horse and lance...
My personal view is that horsemanship was far better in ancient times...

[vartan]

Chariot melee attack lethality = 1. Nuff said.

Can't somebody make that less? I mean, they're moving around and the guy next to the driver is spearing the guys to the side that he comes across. Does it HAVE to be lethality 1? I know if you get hit by a really fast chariot you're bound to get KILLED but can't it be like 0.5 or something? 1 is like MASSACRE lethality.

[Brennus]

Cavalry is cheaper and more cost-efficient than chariots; a horde of 100 HAs can shoot twice as many arrows as their equivalent in chariots (100 horses = 50 chariots at most). Cavalry is also more versatile regarding terrain. Riders can fight while standing still.
Those advantages are serious enough to outweigh drawbacks compared to chariots. So far for reasons why cavalry replaced chariots. They weren't better in every role, they were just far more efficient.

As to direct combat, spinning blades are not good for horsies' legs. Nor are wheels or other mechanical contraptions moving at high speed. When combating chariots, the best thing to do for a cavalry force is to try to gun them down with javelins and arrows, or to dismount and form a phalanx of some sorts.

I don't agree with the idea of cavalry being more efficient, I would suggest instead that cavalry replaced chariots on account of improved breeding stocks. You can't ride ponies for a very long period of time but you can yoke them with little difficulty.

[Apázlinemjó]

Chariot melee attack lethality = 1. Nuff said.

Can't somebody make that less? I mean, they're moving around and the guy next to the driver is spearing the guys to the side that he comes across. Does it HAVE to be lethality 1? I know if you get hit by a really fast chariot you're bound to get KILLED but can't it be like 0.5 or something? 1 is like MASSACRE lethality.

Actually, Cidainh doesn't have scythed blades at the wheels nor anything which could do damage except the skirmisher, so it shouldn't have 1 lethality. However scythed ones are a different story and they are already nerfed (morale 6, running amok (btw the latter is missing from the Cidainh's attributes)).

[MechWarrior]

Chariot melee attack lethality = 1. Nuff said.

Can't somebody make that less? I mean, they're moving around and the guy next to the driver is spearing the guys to the side that he comes across. Does it HAVE to be lethality 1? I know if you get hit by a really fast chariot you're bound to get KILLED but can't it be like 0.5 or something? 1 is like MASSACRE lethality.


1 is like MASSACRE lethality.

...MASSACRE...

I'm sorry, but I laughed. Hard.

On-topic, though, chariots WITH scythed wheels
should absolutely be bad for horses legs.

Chariots without scythes, though, I agree with
their lethality being lowered, as the guy next to the driver
has what, a longsword at best, right? :inquisitive:

[Brennus]

Something tells me vartan has had a few bad encounters with chariots.

I say keep the lethality at its current level, remember the lethality also represents the passenger when he is dismounted. Due to the limitations of the RTW engine you can't have nobelmen dismount from their chariots.

[vartan]

Actually, Cidainh doesn't have scythed blades at the wheels nor anything which could do damage except the skirmisher, so it shouldn't have 1 lethality. However scythed ones are a different story and they are already nerfed (morale 6, running amok (btw the latter is missing from the Cidainh's attributes)).
1) I haven't seen a chariot on the battlefield.

2) Forget the model, whether you see blades or not. That's not important. Look at the stats. The actual damage inflicted. Let's assume the unit doesn't have spears, scythes, whatnot. It still has an attack (that's what the computer knows, no more no less). Apparently, that attack is 100 percent lethal. Simple as that. Who can explain the reasoning behind the lethality?

[Brennus]

Celtic Might! :charge:

Possibly the weight of the chariot itself? Although that's unlikely since Celtic chariots were renowned for being of light build.

Do they inflict damage whilst stationary or walking, as opposed to being at full gallop?

[Kikaz]

I don't see the issue with them having 1 lethality. On the battlefield, they produce extraordinarily lackluster results roughly 70% of the time. Aside from that, they often knock down enemy soldiers without killing them, usually more often than actually killing them.

[athanaric]

Do they inflict damage whilst stationary or walking, as opposed to being at full gallop?
Even in RTW with its idiosyncrasies, standing chariots are dead meat. That's why so many players hate Casse bodyguards: In theory, they're very dependable, with 16 morale, command "aura", fear effect, good stamina, and a huge stack of javelins for ammo. In reality, they like to die at every corner, even more readily than Scythed Chariots (which are far better armoured, thus it's logical).



I don't see the issue with them having 1 lethality. On the battlefield, they produce extraordinarily lackluster results roughly 70% of the time. Aside from that, they often knock down enemy soldiers without killing them, usually more often than actually killing them.
I concur; they don't need to be nerfed any further in this respect. The most kills come from running down routers, anyway.

[Apázlinemjó]

Celtic Might! :charge:

INDEED!

Chariots are deadly against cavalry (but if you use unorthodox tactics, you can beat them :sweatdrop:), but very weak against tightly packed infantry, archer and skirmisher units.

By the way, Cidainh might be a bit OP'd, they have high morale (16), more soldier/unit compared to scythed ones, no running amok feature, they inspire friendly troopers and scare foes, they are cheaper than most cavalry and scythed, their lethality is 1. Actually their only drawback is the low armour value, but who cares when you get so many bonuses. But again, a simple Peltastai could make short work of them, Lol.

Edit: Whoops, I was slow. Anyway the whole thing is different in MP, chariots can be match-winner or match loser units there, it depends who uses them, how, on what terrain and against who.

[athanaric]

But again, a simple Peltastai could make short work of them, Lol.
Or just about any kind of spearmen. In EB, I find that melee troops are better at killing chariots than javelineers are. I once had a unit of Milnaht destroy an Eleutheroi Cidainh bodyguard unit with zero losses on my side (though admittedly, the fight was in a gateway :grin:)

[Apázlinemjó]

Or just about any kind of spearmen. In EB, I find that melee troops are better at killing chariots than javelineers are. I once had a unit of Milnaht destroy an Eleutheroi Cidainh bodyguard unit with zero losses on my side (though admittedly, the fight was in a gateway :grin:)

In MP battles the trick card is Thracian Peltastai, their rain of javelins is just devastating against chariots (I know this from my own experience :P). Or for easterners, horse archers, chariots cannot gallop that fast and their lack of armour makes them easy targets for arrows.

Edit: Also you can beat them with heavy cavalry too, but it needs a bit more micromanaging.

[ARCHIPPOS]

hmmmmm, playing at medium battle difficulty i have found chariots to be quite fragile. Casse chariots are annoyingly easy to kill when stationary.Also they die from Javelins quite easily.In my KH campaign i have come across Pontus scythed chariots quite a few times.Their charge can prove dangerous (but hey all charges are supposed to be).After the initial shock though and once engaged in melee they die like flies.Take in notice that contrary to normal cavalry they cannot withdraw and charge again (they get overrun due to their large turning radius).Effective against cavalry ??? Are you talking about some low-tier hippakontistai ??? Because Greek mercenary generals, medium hippeis or even prodromoi chew scythed chariots up taking around 15% casualties (provided they charge first of course). I suppose even horse archers can prove devastating against chariots because they are faster, more manouverable with better stamina and they carry lots of missiles... i have never tried that though :) All in all i'ld say chariot performance is quite realistic in EB.They're a fragile war machine with many tactical limitations and some advantages if used correctly.You wanna see overpowered chariots play the Britons in RTW.Their bows and arrows were outrageously effective. extra long range too. Kinda felt like having snipers on land rovers...

[Apázlinemjó]

hmmmmm, playing at medium battle difficulty i have found chariots to be quite fragile. Casse chariots are annoyingly easy to kill when stationary.Also they die from Javelins quite easily.In my KH campaign i have come across Pontus scythed chariots quite a few times.Their charge can prove dangerous (but hey all charges are supposed to be).After the initial shock though and once engaged in melee they die like flies.Take in notice that contrary to normal cavalry they cannot withdraw and charge again (they get overrun due to their large turning radius).Effective against cavalry ??? Are you talking about some low-tier hippakontistai ??? Because Greek mercenary generals, medium hippeis or even prodromoi chew scythed chariots up taking around 15% casualties (provided they charge first of course). I suppose even horse archers can prove devastating against chariots because they are faster, more manouverable with better stamina and they carry lots of missiles... i have never tried that though :) All in all i'ld say chariot performance is quite realistic in EB.They're a fragile war machine with many tactical limitations and some advantages if used correctly.You wanna see overpowered chariots play the Britons in RTW.Their bows and arrows were outrageously effective. extra long range too. Kinda felt like having snipers on land rovers...

I guess you've never faced human player with chariots before. :P

[vartan]

I think it was Apaz who tested it, but anyone with experience can tell you: Chariot armies defeat Kataphract armies, with devastating unbelievable results.

[ARCHIPPOS]

I think it was Apaz who tested it, but anyone with experience can tell you: Chariot armies defeat Kataphract armies, with devastating unbelievable results.

waaaaaat ??? are you guys serious ???

[Apázlinemjó]

https://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt196/Adamka/0001-1.jpg

https://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt196/Adamka/0002-1.jpg


It was 3 Cidainh vs 5 AI Grivpanvar. Though, taking 5 down in a multiplayer battle is impossible, since humans are smarter than the AI and they wouldn't try to hammer down the chariots like they were infantry.

Edit: Had a few runs with ASM, 3 Cidainh could take 3 Grivpanvar down, however the chariots were easily defeated by HAs and after that by hoplites. Lol.

[mountaingoat]

they are the "anti cav" cav .. i find it better in MP battles to just leave them behind the enemy ( gives a bonus ) , rather than charge them in , as they die quickly in melee (against non cav units).

[seienchin]

I hoped they will be removed in EBII, but they dont seem to be... They were rediculous in EBI. Everything about them was broken. They are even deadly to riders when they flee... They can run like 40 times through a infantry unit without beeing slowed down too much and let everybody fly in the air and still nobody is dead...
In Rome total war they were annoying because they were so strong (Interesting cause I only recall that empires who used them eventually lost against cavallery or infantry centered armies...), but in EB they dont make sense. Esspecially because everybody is so hard to kill (Which I really like. Ebs battles are awesome. :) ) and than there are the chariots, wich are laughable against infantry and let everybody fly in the air or force to the ground (They actually act like modern racing cars smashing through a crowd of people), but kill cavallery even when fleeing or when atacked in the back...

[Brennus]

I hoped they will be removed in EBII, but they dont seem to be... They were rediculous in EBI. Everything about them was broken. They are even deadly to riders when they flee... They can run like 40 times through a infantry unit without beeing slowed down too much and let everybody fly in the air and still nobody is dead...
In Rome total war they were annoying because they were so strong (Interesting cause I only recall that empires who used them eventually lost against cavallery or infantry centered armies...), but in EB they dont make sense. Esspecially because everybody is so hard to kill (Which I really like. Ebs battles are awesome. :) ) and than there are the chariots, wich are laughable against infantry and let everybody fly in the air or force to the ground (They actually act like modern racing cars smashing through a crowd of people), but kill cavallery even when fleeing or when atacked in the back...

I must confess as a regular (alebit very bad) Casse player to love chariots for those attributes. Although I do agree with you there are many things you have listed above I would like to see fixed in EBII.


they are the "anti cav" cav .. i find it better in MP battles to just leave them behind the enemy ( gives a bonus ) , rather than charge them in , as they die quickly in melee (against non cav units).

I prefer to use them as mobile skirmishers before the battle and then park them behind my lines before bringing them out, very briefly, to deliver the finishing blow to faltering enemy units. Their speed and their attributes against cavalry make them superb skirmishers, difficult to run down (a weakness of most skirmishers) and able to intimidate the enemy (show me a skirmisher than can!).

[Intranetusa]

I think a quick change in the edu stats should solve it...

Give them 3HP, lower their lethality to maybe .8 instead of 1.

Also, for the love of gawd, increase the Seleucid armored scythe chariot morale - 6? Imma increase the morale, and either lower its armor slightly or lower its attack value.

[Rahwana]

Chariot melee attack lethality = 1. Nuff said.

Can't somebody make that less? I mean, they're moving around and the guy next to the driver is spearing the guys to the side that he comes across. Does it HAVE to be lethality 1? I know if you get hit by a really fast chariot you're bound to get KILLED but can't it be like 0.5 or something? 1 is like MASSACRE lethality.


1) I haven't seen a chariot on the battlefield.

2) Forget the model, whether you see blades or not. That's not important. Look at the stats. The actual damage inflicted. Let's assume the unit doesn't have spears, scythes, whatnot. It still has an attack (that's what the computer knows, no more no less). Apparently, that attack is 100 percent lethal. Simple as that. Who can explain the reasoning behind the lethality?


I think it was Apaz who tested it, but anyone with experience can tell you: Chariot armies defeat Kataphract armies, with devastating unbelievable results.


I think a quick change in the edu stats should solve it...

Give them 3HP, lower their lethality to maybe .8 instead of 1.

Also, for the love of gawd, increase the Seleucid armored scythe chariot morale - 6? Imma increase the morale, and either lower its armor slightly or lower its attack value.

I think their attributes (ap, area, copared with special attack that they have), meant that their lethality is hardcoded to 1, even if you changed that, that would just like the missile attacks, their lethality are hardcoded to 1

[Intranetusa]

I think their attributes (ap, area, copared with special attack that they have), meant that their lethality is hardcoded to 1, even if you changed that, that would just like the missile attacks, their lethality are hardcoded to 1

Do you mean the missile attack is hard coded or the melee attack? I'm fine with the missile attack at 1. But if the melee lethality is at 1, then it rapes any cavalry it gets near...

[vartan]

I think Sonic is right, because IIRC the Chariot, Elephant, and missile attacks are special and hardcoded at 1 and unmodifiable because Creative Assembly said, "That's how we roll..."

[Intranetusa]

Melee attacks of chariots are hardcoded too? Bummer...

In that case, I'll probably just lower their base attack value or lower their defense skill...

[Kikaz]

I don't think chariots do anywhere near as well against light cavalry. I seem to usually lose if I attack Leuce Epos with a Cadainh or Dahyu Skirmishers with a Scythed Chariot.

[Apázlinemjó]

I don't think chariots do anywhere near as well against light cavalry. I seem to usually lose if I attack Leuce Epos with a Cadainh or Dahyu Skirmishers with a Scythed Chariot.

Turn guard mode on till they are throwing the javelins at you. After they are out of ammo, they'll attack you, at this point you have to turn guard mode off, set your chariots in loose formation (if they weren't in that already) and charge straight into the Leuce Epos. If none helps them, the gallic light cavalry will lose the close combat.