On unrest and devastation

[Bellicin]

Greetings!

In my most recent campaign as Carthage I have stumbled upon two things that puzzle me, and I thought someone here might enlighten me on the subject(s).

* As Carthage in the year 262 BC I have 15% Unrest in the cities of Corduba, Palma and Lilybaeum. They have been mine from the start and have had the same statistic every turn. There are no armies nearby or anything else that could explain the unrest. I might have had similar problems in other campaigns but never gave it much thoughts before. Any theories on why this happens?

* Devastation - when does it actually go away? In several campaigns I've noticed that once a region is invaded by rebels or enemy factions the devastationstatistic it has a tendency to keep that devastation up for several turns, possibly forever. Is there a mechanic behind this that I'm unaware of? Does it in fact fade after x turns or similar?

Thanks for reading!

Kind regards

Bellicin

[ReluctantSamurai]

Distance to capital (that's always Corduba's problem when playing Carthage) and governor traits. Do a tally of +/- to law and unrest for your governors (all those settlements you mentioned start with one). My guess is that you have a (-) net result for those settlements.

Devastation will eventually go away. The time it takes is related to the extent it was at before the offending army was "removed". A big army will cause much more devastation than a smaller one and will therefore take longer to recede.

[Bellicin]

Aye, that was my first thought as well. The +15% of Unrest are flaming atop of the 55% Distance to Capital I get in Corduba with Carthage as my capital though. My governors are amazingly uncorrupted so far so they actually don't have any negative traits yet that would account for the Unrest. Not to mention the Unrest remains intact with or without governor in the town or even area.

Thanks for the update on devastation, nice to hear there is indeed a light at the end of the tunnel!

Kind regards

[Myth]

Some cities in RTW have hardcoded unrest, although i forget wihch ones. Perhaps this is the case with Cordoba?

[ReluctantSamurai]

Aye. The one I know of is Jerusalem. I hate that @#$% place no matter which faction I play. Another factor for unrest can lie with squalor, IIRC, and of course, the taxation level.

[Bellicin]

Ah yes, that would explain it. Thanks!

Kind regards

[Lord Reid of Britannica]

I've always noticed that upgrading farms in regions seems to help in my games, like from land clearance to communal farming. It may just have been a string of coincidences.

[VersusAllOdds]

From my knowledge all Spanish provinces are unruly, no matter the faction. It might be because they are far from capitals of just about any faction, but I think they have some hidden unrest increase out there...

Farms influence loyalty, sewers and temples that give health/growth. Those are the things that indirectly increase loyalty, because food is heavily linked with health/growth which are all working against squalor. Squalor I find to be the most menacing unrest effect, and the one you fight the hardest...

[Lord Reid of Britannica]

I've never known quite how to combat squalor... what factors affect it?

[ReluctantSamurai]

Look here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?37586-Squalor

[Bellicin]

Indeed, I just can't seem to keep the population of Corduba happy no matter what. Gonna try upgrading farms as per recommendation now, thanks for the tip!

And oh boy, no matter how much I read about squalor it still doesn't make much sense to me :dizzy2:

Kind regards

Bellicin

[ReluctantSamurai]

Gonna try upgrading farms as per recommendation now, thanks for the tip!

Upgrading farms is only going to make it worse, in the long run. It's a vicious cycle.....rapid population growth=rapid squalor growth for large cities. So anything you do to increase population growth will increase squalor, as well. The whole trick is to achieve ZPG. If the population isn't increasing, neither is squalor.

Corduba is always going to be trouble because of that large distance-to-capital penalty. This is how I handle it:

First off, its prestige you're looking for in Corduba's governor. Management skills make more money, but high prestige will hold the population loyalty better. I only build the minimum farm requirements, at the start. Corduba grows reasonably fast (I haven't played Carthage in awhile, so I'm doing this strictly from memory) and will reach the 6k mark within 10 yrs. You are probably fending off attacks from Spain, Gaul, or both, so you are most likely training new recruits frequently. Keep an eye on population loyalty, more so than squalor. When it dips to 75 or 80%, add one more unit to the garrison. This is usually good for several turns or slightly more. Every time loyalty drops into the 'blue', add one more to the garrison. Do not, under any circumstances, build the Temple of Tanit. Its farm bonus is exactly what you don't need. (Caralis and Palma are good candidates for this temple). I use the Temple of Baal not only for the Sacred Band, but because it has law & order qualities (the awesome version is 20/20 happiness/law). Milquart will give you increased trade and 20% happiness, but no law qualities.

Ship a good commander to Spain as soon as you can. Keep him actively fighting Spain and/or Gaul until he gains a goodly amount of prestige. He is going to be the governor to see you through the toughest time......between 12k and 24k. In this population range, only a full 20 unit garrison will keep things quiet, but the maintenance gets to be a drain on funds. Until you can get the awesome Temple of Baal built, it's your high-prestige governor that's going to hold things together. I only add the next stage of farming when the population stops growing before it reaches the level of city I want (which for Corduba with the Awesome Temple of Baal kicking out Sacred Band, is 24k so I can combine it with a foundry).

Of course, the alternative is to continually slaughter the population every ten years, but this is rather counter-productive, as more people paying taxes=more money in your coffers, and you severely curtail city level advancement. At some point you will accumulate enough ancillaries concerning law and order to keep things under control. Your eventual goal is ZPG (Zero Population Growth). It isn't easy, but it can be done with careful management. I do recall attaining ZPG for not only Corduba, but pain-in-the-@#$$ Carthage of all places, as well. Unfortunately, I don't keep older save-games around too long, or I'd have some screenies. Perhaps I should start, as this topic has come up frequently, as of late.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Good suggestions from Master Samurai. I would add that if you're empire's geographic situation permits, change your capital city. Sometimes even doing it for one or two turns until a newly captured city's populace quiets down is all you need. When I'm playing the Julii and I've captured all of Spain and France and am moving into Britain, I change my capital to Marseilles (Messala). It quiets Corduba considerably. Corduba is definitely a prime candidate for a governor. Of course, with the Julii, the temple of Jupiter series tends to bestow some good admin qualities on your governors. This will enhance their positive public order effect on the city they govern.

When I'm playing Carthage, growth of population and squalor tends to self-neutralize over time resulting in ZPG.

There are limits to the garrison benefit. Once you've maxed it at 80%, adding new troops will not increase your public order benefit from the garrison. And by the same token, once the population gets really really large, there are not enough garrison slots in the city (you have 20) to achieve the 80% public order benefit from a garrison. In the end, all you can do is lower the tax rate and keep adding buildings that offer some PO benefit until you achieve ZPG. Once you reach ZPG, public disorder is no longer an issue.

I've never liked the idea of vacating a city, letting it go rebel, then besieging it anew and exterminating the population. Some RTW players like that method of city management, but I prefer other alternatives.

There are several towns that are especially PO pains in the arse. The largest is Alexandria. It grows like a weed, faster seomtimes than you can recruit troops to keep the garrison PO benefit high. Another is the little town of Deva in Wales. Invariably when you take that town, it retains a high public unrest % of 60-70% and only slowly comes down. Many is the time I've lost troops in Deva to rioting while playing the Julii. Even Tara, in Ireland, doesn't have the unrest problem that Deva shows. I can get Tara quiet, stabilized and productive long before Deva most of the time. Another is Nepte at the very southern border of your gameboard. It couples a modest unrest problem after capture with the fact that it is so distant from most capital cities. It's usually not worth capturing unless you're trying to finish off the faction that happens to occupy it.

Jerusalem also shows a PO volatility once the population gets really large. I think this is built into the game design based on the city's historical reputation. The Jews were always rebelling against their occupiers - Nebuchadnezzar (Babylonia), Antiochus Epiphanes (the Seleucid Empire), and twice against Rome requiring Hadrian and Vespasian to deal with them in the worst way - sacking, extermination and diaspora.

[ReluctantSamurai]

There are limits to the garrison benefit.

True. Especially when you hit the 12k or 24k mark. The method of adding one as needed is probably better <12k.


I've never liked the idea of vacating a city, letting it go rebel, then besieging it anew and exterminating the population. Some RTW players like that method of city management, but I prefer other alternatives.

I used to do this with any faction I played to the extent of having a roving "Exterminator"...a general & army who spent his entire career slaughtering city populations. Oh the monikers those generals would get:laugh4: "The Butcher", "The Murderer", etc.

Now I only do it when there's no alternative (Scythia gets no good law temple, for example, and Tanais & Chersonesos require periodic slaughtering due to the grain bonus:embarassed:)


I think this is built into the game design based on the city's historical reputation.

I believe it's 30% for this @#$% place!:furious3: But I can get ZPG even here, so I rarely have to exterminate. Patavium is another like Jerusalem, IIRC, though for some reason I've never taken the time to see what the built-in unrest # is:shame:

[Guyus Germanicus]

One other minor note I'd like to add about unrest - sometimes the unrest is caused by the unseen spy. This is probably not the reason that inspired Bellecin to start this thread, but I thought I'd mention this stuff anyway. If you have a spy posted in your own city, you can usually see the spies of other factions coming. But there are times when your frontier city may suffer a sudden unexplained drop in public order and an increase in unrest, but the game does not 'report' the presence of a spy. That's because the spy may be especially adept or experienced at infiltration. A super experienced spy can infiltrate a city undetected even with your own spies posted in that city. You'll know it when it happens because you'll suddenly see your 'green' city turn blue.

Some factions are relentless in their use of spies. You can usually stop their violations by recruiting spies and keeping them stationed in your city with the espionage problem. The better the enemy spy, the more spies you'll need to stop the infiltration and reduce the unrest he causes. Get two or three spies in your city and even fairly good enemy spies will stop trying to infiltrate because the risk of being caught is too high. Sometimes they will try anyway. When they do its usually curtains. Give your spies easy assignments to build up their experience and they can 'see' farther (hence, lighting up more of the game map) and they become more effective at detecting infiltration reducing the success rate of enemy spies.

Budget for spies. They are extremely beneficial even when idle in a city posting. They tend to light up the mapboard around the area where they're stationed. I like finding hilltops or high points on the game map to post them. They're like little lamps that allow you to see enemy travel and army movements.

The Gauls like to post two to three spies outside Patavium after it has been captured. This is pretty typical behavior for most enemy factions. Carthage loves to post spies in Sicily outside every city after they've been thrown off the island. Sometimes they will attempt an infiltration, but usually they're just 'hanging out.' Spain constantly probes Corduba.

You'll often 'discover' that your city has been infiltrated by spies even though they may not be able to provoke unrest because your governor suddenly develops counter spy expertise. Governors good at counter espionage can reduce the unrest caused by successful infiltrations. They can increase the chance of catching enemy spies.

The more recent your city conquest the more susceptible that city is to unrest caused by spies. That's one reason why I like to recruit a spy within the first or second turn after I take a city. They will be needed for counter espionage, protecting your general from assassins, and for lighting up the mapboard around your city. Spies will help you see the presence of enemy assassins too.

I have occasionally seen unrest increase within a city simply because an enemy army or rebel band was close by. But this doesn't happen consistently.

And, of course, squalor can also be a cause of unrest. But the extent of the squalor-caused unrest seems to depend on the city as well.

[Bellicin]

Interesting, I had no idea spies caused unrest. Thanks for the tip!

Kind regards

[ReluctantSamurai]

I had forgotten the spy effect. One of my favorite tactics since STW was using spies to cause rebellions. In RTW, I tried using this tactic, as well, but finally gave up. I could have some success against non-Roman factions but only minimal against the Romans.

I don't know how the AI sets taxes when it controls a city, especially when there's a governor, but I could have 3-5 spies in a Roman city, see public loyalty drop to 0, and still not get a rebellion. Often the AI counters by giving the governor "law" ancillaries, or law-giving traits. It was all too frustrating so I gave up that aspect of the game.


The more recent your city conquest the more susceptible that city is to unrest caused by spies. That's one reason why I like to recruit a spy within the first or second turn after I take a city.

I do the same, and preferably with a skilled spy, as "spying talent" often won't cut it. I also usually have an experienced assassin along to kill off enemy spies and assassins.