Anti-Semitism on the Rise In Germany

[PanzerJaeger]

Among one particular group... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100624/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_jewish_attack)


Youths attack Jewish dance group in Germany

BERLIN – Arab youths threw stones at a Jewish dance group during a street festival in Hannover, injuring one dancer and forcing the group to cancel its performance, German police and dance officials said Thursday.

The teenagers also used a megaphone to shout anti-Semitic slurs during the attack Saturday, Hannover police spokesman Thorsten Schiewe said.

"I don't remember such a dramatic attack in Germany in recent times," said Michael Fuerst, the head of the Jewish community of the state of Lower Saxony.

Six suspects have been identified — five Arabic immigrants and one German — and police are looking for the other three, police said. The six range from nine to 19 years old and have been questioned by police.

Hannover prosecutors are investigating those involved on suspicion of incitement and causing serious bodily harm, prosecutor Irene Silinger said.

Stephan Kramer of the Central Council of Jews in Germany condemned the attack.

"This latest incident shows something we have not experienced before: A growing radicalization of young Muslims, which affects not only the Jewish community but the entire German community," Kramer told The Associated Press.

The Central Council of Muslims in Germany could not immediately be reached for comment.

Alla Volodarska of the Progressive Jewish community of Hannover dance group said its members were still in shock.

"What happened is just so awful," Volodarska told the AP. "The teenagers started throwing stones the moment our dance group was announced, even before they started dancing."

Volodarska did not attend the event but talked to several members of the eight-person dance group. She said one female dancer was injured in the leg by the stones.

"There were many kids throwing stones, many of them, but we don't know the exact number," she said, adding that the group had often performed Israeli dances at festivals and never experienced this kind of hostility before.

The festival took place in Sahlkamp, an immigrant neighborhood in Hannover.

Fuerst blamed city festival organizers for not calling the police right away.

"The organizers tried to de-escalate the situation themselves instead of calling the police. That's just plain stupid," Fuerst said, adding he was meeting Friday with the interior minister of Lower Saxony about the incident.

The Association of Jewish University Students in Germany said Thursday the number of anti-Semitic slurs and death threats against Jews in Germany had increased in recent weeks due to the May 31 Israeli commando raid on a Gaza aid flotilla that left nine activists dead.

Kramer agreed and noted that online threats especially had risen.

"The threats are mostly sent by e-mail or posted online on social networking sites like Facebook or MySpace," Kramer said.

[Hax]

oh my god oh my god oh my god

the MUSLIMS!


Seriously, how long can you defend this charade? Stop pretending like there is some global pan-Islamic organisation who is organising these events. There isn't. While it is impossible to state that anti-Semitism isn't a problem within the contemporary Islamic community, stop pretending like nobody tries to do anything against it. That's not true.

EDIT:
The muslims are a violent racist people. They are tought to kill any non muslims. (which of course doesnt keep them from killing thier own, its just that they are "encouraged" to kill the rest of us).
first they will go after the Jews, then the Christians.

Us vs them. Now, where have we seen that before?

[miotas]

Interesting that you would call it anti-semetism, when arabic people are semetic.

[Beskar]

There is a situation where being Jewish = Israeli, as both identities are one and the same.

This situation, not helped by Zionists, end up with those who are misguidance taking action on innocents who have nothing to do, or even associated with the state of Israel or its actions. Even to the extend that criticising Israel is seen as anti-semitic.

Even these does not excuse the violent behaviour of those who exercised violence in an unjustified manner, and these should be dealt with. Attacks on innocents in senses of morality is simply 'wrong' and should not occur.

However, on the grander scale, even if you disagree with a country, its policies or human rights record, this cannot be done without a diplomatic incident of an embargo or war, which will most likely result in far more innocents getting harmed.

These attacks are very unfortunate, and the predators should be arrested and brought to justice. Unless something is done on many levels, or even to the extreme of a police officer every two feet away, these kind of actions will unfortunately still continue, until the sources of the problems are taken care of.


Edit: Post simplified into basic English

[rory_20_uk]

When times are hard, identifiable sub-groups are attacked. Although this article is describing Jews, the Turks also get picked on a lot as they too are easily identifiably different from the majority.

The easiest way of stopping this happen is to assimilate with the country one is in. Often this ends up blending with what was there with the new. Staying seperate from the belief that one is better than everyone else hardly endears one to others - be this white supremacists, Jews, Black Panthers - whoever.

~:smoking:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Jews, women and gays - all three of them have no-go areas in Europe nowadays.

Well it's their own fault really. None of this would happen if only these groups would aim their heads down, eyes pointed to the ground, when encountering street patrols of their superiors, young men of a certain background.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The article said it was Arab teenagers, so this is probably just typical thuggish behaviour. Is there any evidence of serious levels of anti-semetism throughout the Muslim community (maybe there is, I really don't know)?

[Cute Wolf]

Seriously, how long can you defend this charade? Stop pretending like there is some global pan-Islamic organisation who is organising these events. There isn't. While it is impossible to state that anti-Semitism isn't a problem within the contemporary Islamic community, stop pretending like nobody tries to do anything against it. That's not true.

There is actually one :
www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org

now, seriously, even in this muslim majority country, they are caught backing terrorists here, you are the one who was ignorant hax

[Rhyfelwyr]

There is actually one :
www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org

now, seriously, even in this muslim majority country, they are caught backing terrorists here, you are the one who was ignorant hax

Would they really have organised the event in PJ's article though?

It just looks like some kids acting like thugs. It seems pretty petty, hardly suggestive of what the rather provacative thread title was hinting at.

[rory_20_uk]

Jews, women and gays - all three of them have no-go areas in Europe nowadays.

Well it's their own fault really. None of this would happen if only these groups would aim their heads down, eyes pointed to the ground, when encountering street patrols of their superiors, young men of a certain background.

Oh, come on! There are no go areas in Europe for almost any group you care to describe. I've read there are no-go areas in france for the Police for example. English people in some areas of Glasgow is not wise either.

I've had several friends who were Jews. Often I only found out after knowing them for a long time as they didn't go to a special school, wear black and wear an odd hat. I've had gay and bisexual friends. Again I was not aware for a long time as they were a mate just like any other. They did not play "it's raining men" on a loudspeaker whilst dressed in a pink leotard. They dressed like any other medical student.

~:smoking:

[Cute Wolf]

Would they really have organised the event in PJ's article though?

It just looks like some kids acting like thugs. It seems pretty petty, hardly suggestive of what the rather provacative thread title was hinting at.

They have caught with their pants down, engineering several racial riots here, and if they have international branches, why not engineering the anti Jewish movements in Europe as well, You know, maybe they are not the one who control the european problems, but there must be one organizations controlling and coordinating them I think, if their modus operandi are the same here and there... (an organizations is coordinating several unrests and riots, that was what the fanatics do in Indonesia and south east asia)

[Cute Wolf]

Would they really have organised the event in PJ's article though?

It just looks like some kids acting like thugs. It seems pretty petty, hardly suggestive of what the rather provacative thread title was hinting at.

They have caught with their pants down, engineering several racial riots here, and if they have international branches, why not engineering the anti Jewish movements in Europe as well, You know, maybe they are not the one who control the european problems, but there must be one organizations controlling and coordinating them I think, if their modus operandi are the same here and there... (an organizations is coordinating several unrests and riots, that was what the fanatics do in Indonesia and south east asia)

[Hax]

now, seriously, even in this muslim majority country, they are caught backing terrorists here, you are the one who was ignorant hax

Then explain the position of Ahl-ul-Kitab in the Qur'an.

Then explain the fact that Jews, Zoroastrians and Christians are protected in the Iranian constitution.

Then explain the fact that Mehdi Karroubi during his time as Chairman of the Iranian parliament regularly visited fire temples, churches and synagogues.

Then explain the fact that Mohammad Khatamai, during his time as President of Iran might have shook hands with Moshe Katsav.

Then explain the fact that Tariq Ramidan, amongst others, have called the treatment of Jews as animals and the like as horrible and not fitting in western society.

[gaelic cowboy]

Then explain the position of Ahl-ul-Kitab in the Qur'an.

Then explain the fact that Jews, Zoroastrians and Christians are protected in the Iranian constitution.

Then explain the fact that Mehdi Karroubi during his time as Chairman of the Iranian parliament regularly visited fire temples, churches and synagogues.

Then explain the fact that Mohammad Khatamai, during his time as President of Iran might have shook hands with Moshe Katsav.

Then explain the fact that Tariq Ramidan, amongst others, have called the treatment of Jews as animals and the like as horrible and not fitting in western society.

None of that is even remotely relevant to today, those people mentioned are long gone from today's Islamic political scene.

[Hax]

None of that is even remotely relevant to today, those people mentioned are long gone from today's Islamic political scene.

Yes, because Mehdi Karroubi wasn't a presidential candidate last year. Oh, and Mohammed Khatami hardly was president less than a decade ago. Tariq Ramadan appears to be alive and fleshy, too!

[Crazed Rabbit]

It is probably down to that whole situation propagated by Zionists where being Jewish = Israeli. Therefore, jewish people end up getting attacked because of the affairs in Israel.

Just like the women who get attacked by young men of a certain background deserve it for dressing immodestly, right?


Then explain the position of Ahl-ul-Kitab in the Qur'an.

Then explain the fact that Jews, Zoroastrians and Christians are protected in the Iranian constitution.

Then explain the fact that Mehdi Karroubi during his time as Chairman of the Iranian parliament regularly visited fire temples, churches and synagogues.

Then explain the fact that Mohammad Khatamai, during his time as President of Iran might have shook hands with Moshe Katsav.

Then explain the fact that Tariq Ramidan, amongst others, have called the treatment of Jews as animals and the like as horrible and not fitting in western society.

Maybe you ought to explain why these men of a certain religion are attacking Jews.

There doesn't need to be a 'global conspiracy', what we have is a plague of hate worldwide, and YMOACB attacking people because they are taught hate, and they practice hate.

A few gestures from the past do not change any of these facts.

Attempts to defend and mitigate these attacks for the sake of multiculturalism will only allow them to continue. The hard facts need to be faced; these men are violent and hateful towards Jews because of their religion and culture.

CR

[Hax]

Attempts to defend and mitigate these attacks for the sake of multiculturalism will only allow them to continue. The hard facts need to be faced; these men are violent and hateful towards Jews because of their religion and culture.

I'm not really that fond of multiculturalism. The way it's been propagated here in the Netherlands doesn't really work out that well.


Maybe you ought to explain why these men of a certain religion are attacking Jews.

Of course, the problem is the way we like to equate Islam with Arabs. I don't think it really works that way. I tried to point out the hypocrisy of that in my own post, but I appear to have fallen in the trap myself.



A few gestures from the past do not change any of these facts.

Ten years ago. Yes, after 9/11 too.


There doesn't need to be a 'global conspiracy', what we have is a plague of hate worldwide, and YMOACB attacking people because they are taught hate, and they practice hate.

Apart from the fact that I don't understand your abbrevation, I will respond to the other problem; this plague of hatred:


Attempts to defend and mitigate these attacks for the sake of multiculturalism will only allow them to continue. The hard facts need to be faced; these men are violent and hateful towards Jews because of their religion and culture.

To be honest, I think the real problem of the Arabic youths in this case is not so much their religion, but rather the fact that they don't feel at home back in Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, or wherever, as well as the fact they have problem fitting into German society, perhaps because of discrimination, perhaps because of their own reluctance to fit in, but that's besides the point.

Hamas and Hizbullah have exploited their interpretation of Islam to attack (in this case) Israel. I think the underlying reason for anti-Jewish behaviour is because of (yes, that's right) Israel. And before we go "Oh my, Hax hates Israel!", I really don't. The problem is not Israel (nor is it their fault), it's the point of view of the Arab youths towards Israel, justified or not (which is not really my problem).


We need to acknowledge the fact, I think, that the problem lies mainly with the fact that the non-European youth appear to have trouble integrating (to put it lightly). I don't think it has that much to do with Islam.

[Beskar]

Just like the women who get attacked by young men of a certain background deserve it for dressing immodestly, right?

Non-sequitur?

Edit:
I am actually quite interested why you brought this up. It has no relevance to my statement what so ever or any of my views.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Non-sequitur?

Edit:
I am actually quite interested why you brought this up. It has no relevance to my statement what so ever or any of my views.

You're not quite blaming the victims, but you are placing the blame in a ridiculous manner and ignoring the people who threw the stones.


Ten years ago. Yes, after 9/11 too.

So? Has that stopped the rising anti-semitism or these attacks?


Of course, the problem is the way we like to equate Islam with Arabs.

I'm not seeing any Egyptian Coptics or Lebanese Christians participating in these attacks.


We need to acknowledge the fact, I think, that the problem lies mainly with the fact that the non-European youth appear to have trouble integrating (to put it lightly). I don't think it has that much to do with Islam.

The issue is I don't think they want to integrate. The radicalized youth are told that the west, the countries they live in, are bad. They hate the west, so why would they want to integrate?


Apart from the fact that I don't understand your abbrevation,

Young Men Of A Certain Background.

CR

[Beskar]

You're not quite blaming the victims, but you are placing the blame in a ridiculous manner and ignoring the people who threw the stones.


"Even then, it doesn't excuse violent behaviour and those who exercise violence in an unjustified manner should be dealt with." = Ignoring the people who threw the stones. :inquisitive:

I am sure there are tons of things you could say about me which are actually true, to paint me in a bad light if you wanted to, CR, you don't have to actually completely and utterly misrepresent what I have said, saying it is the opposite of what it is.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me on a point, but I humbly request you actually make it a point I have actually stated.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes, because Mehdi Karroubi wasn't a presidential candidate last year. Oh, and Mohammed Khatami hardly was president less than a decade ago. Tariq Ramadan appears to be alive and fleshy, too!

Are they in power???????

[Hax]

Are they in power???????

For the love of Christ man, have you taken a look at the current political situation in Iran?

[Cute Wolf]

For the love of Christ man, have you taken a look at the current political situation in Iran?

a rebellion could blown up anytime, because the youth communities grew tired of extremely strict islamic governments.

no, I don't hate islam, what I dislike is fundamentalist islam, that most (you may call them non practicioning, but in reality that was it) muslims here learned to hate too, they are just like us, they love beers and dislike the too strict and ancient hijab system.

you could got a reason, why Indonesians or some moderate muslim countries never banned alcohol, because half the male populations still love to drink them

[gaelic cowboy]

For the love of Christ man, have you taken a look at the current political situation in Iran?

Are you incapabale of understanding that Mehdi Karroubi and Mohammed Khatami are nothing more than the continuation of the present arrangement. The so called people power was in reality a civil war between two factions. In a sense lets call them Mullah and MullahLight thats is hardly a reason to be cheerful for the future of democracy in Iran.

I don't consider a swiss academic to be a proper representation of political Islam.

My question still stands these people are either not in power or are not central too power in political Islam.

[Hax]

Are you incapabale of understanding that Mehdi Karroubi and Mohammed Khatami are nothing more than the continuation of the present arrangement.

Depends. Do you prefer a Pope that hates all gays or do you prefer a Pope that says that homosexuality is a sin, but homosexuals should be accepted as a part of society?


In a sense lets call them Mullah and MullahLight thats is hardly a reason to be cheerful for the future of democracy in Iran.

Sure. Interestingly, the MullahLights fight for women rights, rights for non-Muslims and scrapping the Guardian Council. Sounds pretty good, huh?


It's illogical and not helpful to try and force a revolution from one day to another. I think people like Mohammed Khatami are exactly what Iran needs again. Hey, perhaps if the US had tried to at least communicate with Iran during his time as president. Perhaps we wouldn't be in the :daisy: we're in today.

[Cute Wolf]

let's pack your belongings and try to live in Iran as a Buddhist Hax...
seriously, if they know your family had muslim backgrounds, you'll be forced to convert or face execution, that was their law, and factual one.

[gaelic cowboy]

Depends. Do you prefer a Pope that hates all gays or do you prefer a Pope that says that homosexuality is a sin, but homosexuals should be accepted as a part of society?



Sure. Interestingly, the MullahLights fight for women rights, rights for non-Muslims and scrapping the Guardian Council. Sounds pretty good, huh?


It's illogical and not helpful to try and force a revolution from one day to another. I think people like Mohammed Khatami are exactly what Iran needs again. Hey, perhaps if the US had tried to at least communicate with Iran during his time as president. Perhaps we wouldn't be in the :daisy: we're in today.

Really your going to compare the rights of gays in the Catholic Church to there rights in Islam, the mind boggles man do you seriously think that anything other than them being executed would be the outcome in Iran.

Mehdi Kherubi or Mohammed Khatami are not central to political Islam in Iran, just because they were once insider's means nothing there out and the regime means to keep them out fullstop.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Antisemitic incidents, like much else, is quantifiable.



Anti-Semitism in France is strongly on the rise, according to the 2009 annual report released late last week by the Jewish Community Protection Service (SPCJ). The organization reported that 832 anti-Semitic incidents were recorded in France in 2009, as compared with 474 such incidents in 2008 - a 75% increase.

The statistics were gleaned from records in the organization's Aid to Victims Department, which cross-checked the figures with data published by the French Ministry of Home Affairs. Included were “statistics, comments, analyses and extracts from sentences handed out by courts in cases involving anti-Semitism,” according to the Council Representing Jewish Institutions of France (CRIF).


CRIF President Richard Prasquier attributed the increase to the French population's anger at Israel during its counter-terrorist operation in Gaza, Cast Lead, last January. There were 354 anti-Semitic incidents recorded in January 2009 alone - a “totally unacceptable transposition to France of the Israel-Palestine conflict,” Prasquier said. He added that “anti-Semitic words and deeds on a daily basis, often under the cover of anti-Zionism, have become a major and worryingly trivial fact of life.”


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/136274

Antisemitic incidents in France in recent years corresponds perfectly with events in Israel / Palestine.

Any war in the Middle East is immediately felt. Any intifada is immediately an intifada in French cities. It is quite unsettling.
To which ought to be added, that this is not just an impulse of Islamic youths, but also of the far left.



The second unnerving development is the return of the (white / French) antisemitic far right. The (French) far right is divided between a) those against Islam, in favour of Israel and America, and b) antisemites, anti-capitalists, anti-Americans. (The latter might even be mistaken for anti-globalists abroad :laugh4: )
(Then again, anti-globalisation / the far left elsewhere touches on far right impulses rather more than it cares to admit, what with their antizionism and noise about Jewish capitalism and financial system etc etc )

It is my impression that 'b', the antisemitic far right, is making a comeback. It is all hopelessly entangled with other far right impulses, so the ectent of far right antisemitism itself is very difficult to establish.

[Rhyfelwyr]

tbh I don't think the Muslim countries are backward because of Islam. The fact that they are backward probably means they interpret Islam in a way that suits their culture.

The Bible could just as easily be used as the Koran to promote an intolerant, hate-filled, bla-bla etc religion.

But it generally isn't these days. It's all down to culture.

[PanzerJaeger]

Interesting that you would call it anti-semetism, when arabic people are semetic.

You’ll get no points for originality, sir. I long ago tired of the semantics game surrounding the term. I used it according to its modern connotation.

[gaelic cowboy]

The second unnerving development is the return of the (white / French) antisemitic far right. The (French) far right is divided between a) those against Islam, in favour of Israel and America, and b) antisemites, anti-capitalists, anti-Americans. (The latter might even be mistaken for anti-globalists abroad :laugh4: )
(Then again, anti-globalisation / the far left elsewhere touches on far right impulses rather more than it cares to admit, what with their antizionism and noise about Jewish capitalism and financial system etc etc )

It is my impression that 'b', the antisemitic far right, is making a comeback. It is all hopelessly entangled with other far right impulses, so the ectent of far right antisemitism itself is very difficult to establish.

I have noticed this too, frankly it is hard to keep up with half the rubbish people are following, Evil Capitalist Banker's clearly has it's antecedent in the Evil Jewish Capitalist.

[Cute Wolf]

tbh I don't think the Muslim countries are backward because of Islam. The fact that they are backward probably means they interpret Islam in a way that suits their culture.

The Bible could just as easily be used as the Koran to promote an intolerant, hate-filled, bla-bla etc religion.

But it generally isn't these days. It's all down to culture.

very much true :bow:

and take laws literally from the holy boks just prove that those men aren't thinking with their rational mind, anything is best done on moderation...

[Crazed Rabbit]

"Even then, it doesn't excuse violent behaviour and those who exercise violence in an unjustified manner should be dealt with." = Ignoring the people who threw the stones. :inquisitive:

I am sure there are tons of things you could say about me which are actually true, to paint me in a bad light if you wanted to, CR, you don't have to actually completely and utterly misrepresent what I have said, saying it is the opposite of what it is.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me on a point, but I humbly request you actually make it a point I have actually stated.

Oh sure, you have the standard "it doesn't excuse there behavior". But who do you look to place the blame on? Israelis and 'Zionists'. It can't hide the underlying bigotry in those statements.

These acts are not caused by anything Israel does, but by the hate in certain people.

And what nation, exactly, would you seek to punish in this quote:

Unfortunately, this is different, as you can't really punish other nation states without diplomatic incident, and there isn't a police officer every 2 foot away.

Israel, I assume? Jews are attacked, and you bemoan how Israel can't be punished.



The Bible could just as easily be used as the Koran to promote an intolerant, hate-filled, bla-bla etc religion.

Empirical evidence - the number of intolerant, hate filled preachers and countries based on said religions - says this is not so.

CR

[Beskar]

Oh sure, you have the standard "it doesn't excuse there behavior". But who do you look to place the blame on? Israelis and 'Zionists'. It can't hide the underlying bigotry in those statements.

I didn't blame it on Israelis or 'Zionists', I merely commented where the source of the incident is coming from. As Louis pretty much said, these incidents always seems to flare up on the next flash headline about Israel, with us having one recently. I said people have a stupid notion of associating Jews with Israel, therefore shouldn't express their violence towards them anyway, when they are not even involved.


These acts are not caused by anything Israel does, but by the hate in certain people.

Yet the acts by Israel causes people to dislike Israel? Cause and effect. The attackers just throw in their misguidance into the boiling pot making things worse and doing unjustified actions as seen in the article.


Israel, I assume? Jews are attacked, and you bemoan how Israel can't be punished.
Sorry, did I just here a veto in UN chamber? What about that whole Israeli boarding crisis, what punishment did they receive? Not just Israel, but other security council members like China too. But let me guess, you are misrepresenting information again.


If you are going to accuse me of being a bigot, you better get an actual case ready and your facts right, instead of foaming at the mouth completely misrepresenting what is said. Any more attempts and I will just clarify as it trolling.

[Crazed Rabbit]

If you are going to accuse me of being a bigot, you better get an actual case ready and your facts right, instead of foaming at the mouth completely misrepresenting what is said. Any more attempts and I will just clarify as it trolling.

I didn't accuse you of being a bigot, and that was on purpose. I think people can have some bigoted thoughts on occasion without being bigots.


Sorry, did I just here a veto in UN chamber? What about that whole Israeli boarding crisis, what punishment did they recieve? Not just Israel, but other security council members like China too.

You shuld look into what hasn't been vetoed lately.

More to the point, why is that even an issue in this topic? What possible reason could there be to bring up how the US sometimes vetoes anti-Israeli UN resolutions when Jews are attacked in Germany by YMOACB?

CR

[Beskar]

I didn't accuse you of being a bigot, and that was on purpose. I think people can have some bigoted thoughts on occasion without being bigots.
Unfortunately, your statement was read as such.

Also, as I keep saying you are completely misrepresenting my statements. I think saying this since my first reply to you, probably might have made you consider "Perhaps I am misrepresenting his comments".

I was saying what many others in this thread has said. The two-state conflict with Israel in the middle-east would be one of the underlying causes of attacks such as these. I even said these attacks were definitely wrong on all accounts, as they are most likely innocent in the entire affiar. Then I mentioned abit with "Identity Construction" where Israel is seen as the "Jewish State" opposed to just being "Israel", and thus innocents who practise the Jewish faith get harmed when they shouldn't be.

There is no bigotry there, it is pretty much "the facts of the situation". The conflicts between Jewish/Muslim communities isn't because those that practise the Jewish faith wear cooler hats, you know, it is to do with the whole Israel-Palastine conflict in the Middle-East.


More to the point, why is that even an issue in this topic? What possible reason could there be to bring up how the US sometimes vetoes anti-Israeli UN resolutions when Jews are attacked in Germany by YMOACB?

You trying to say the I-P conflict has absolutely no bearing on any bigotry, aggression or misguidance of those foolish youths who attacked these innocents?


Edit:
I will concede on one point though, I do have bigot thoughts at times. I am a bigot against bigotry. (If that actually makes sense)

[Louis VI the Fat]

Violent anti-Semitism has become increasingly commonplace in Sweden’s southern city of Malmö, leading many Jewish residents to leave out of fear for their safety. “Threats against Jews have increased steadily in Malmö in recent years and many young Jewish families are choosing to leave the city,” said Fredrik Sieradzki of the Jewish Community of Malmö.

Last year, 79 crimes against Jewish residents were reported to the Malmö police, roughly double the number reported in 2008. In addition, Jewish cemeteries and synagogues have been repeatedly defaced with anti-Semitic graffiti, and a chapel at another Jewish burial site in Malmö was firebombed last January during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza. Many Jewish residents of Malmö feel that local anti-Jewish sentiment is linked with negative attitudes towards Israel.

In addition to its small community of roughly 700 Jews, Malmö is home to a growing Muslim population. However, local Jews insist that the majority of anti-Jewish sentiment, although certainly existent in the Muslim community, is coming from local Swedes.



Sieradzki says that the attitudes of Malmö politicians, especially Social Democrat city council chair Ilmar Reepalu, have allowed anti-Semitism to fester. “He’s demonstrated extreme ignorance when it comes to our problems,” Sieradzki explained. “It’s shameful and regrettable that such a powerful politician could be so ignorant about the threats we face.

“If you read between the lines, he seems to be suggesting that the violence directed toward us is our own fault simply because we didn’t speak out against Israel. We’re a non-political, cultural and religious organization, and there are all kinds of Jews in Malmö.”

Sieradzki admitted his pessimism about the future of the Jewish community in Malmö, saying that there needs to be a “complete change in attitude” among the city’s politicians if the situation is going to improve. “These issues need to be taken seriously,” he said, advocating for dialogue between politicians, Islamic groups and the Jewish community. “But right now many Jews in Malmö are really concerned about the situation here and don’t believe they have a future here.”


Link (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135795).

There is a triple whammy behind the rise of antisemitism: Islam, the far left, and the far right. (Teh suxx0rz 2b Jewish...)


Problems with multiculturalism have created an atmosphere of disrespects towards others, The hick on the street wil do as the excited populist politician shouts - regardless of what exactly the politician shouts. It is still exceedingly rare for any (non-Austrian, West) European politician to be antisemitic. But far right populism has lowered an atmosphere of mutual cultural respect. It's now okay to be intolerant.


Increasing impatience with Israel, frustration about Israel, is making its weight feel too. Israel's policy corresponds with the peace of European Jewry.

[Husar]

tbh I don't think the Muslim countries are backward because of Islam. The fact that they are backward probably means they interpret Islam in a way that suits their culture.

I agree, I think a lot of these people are still stuck in tribal culture and tribal thinking where violence is always a good option, where you stand with your buddies even when they are wrong, where its "us vs. them" etc. This exists in some more western minds as well, to a certain extent in all of us but in a lot of middle eastern minds this way of thinking is still very strong. That's why you get a lot of bloodshed because some politician cannot afford to appear weak etc., here in europe it's the other way around, if you don't promote peace you're a warmonger and get sued or not voted for anymore, over there if you don't respond with a massacre to a killoing you're a weakling and they kill/replace you.

Europe was almost the same many years ago and we interpreted our religion in a far more violent way back then than we do now, so whether the religion is responsible is highly doubtful to me, IMO it's the culture and religion is just used to make it look like something positive, to turn violence into something that makes you go to heaven and thus justify it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Why the far left?Because after mediaeval religious antisemitism, and 19th/20th century nationalist / racist antisemitism, we are currently witnessing a third form of antisemitism: la nouvelle judéophobie.


Surely the irony of a man with a Panzerjaeger for a sig decrying rising antisemitism in Germany should be a telltale sign that the world has changed? That old allegiances have shifted? :beam:


French philosopher Taquieff identified this 'new antisemitism', this reshuffling of the deck. New antisemitism originated in the Soviet Union and the Arab World in the 1960s, and is sweeping across the left in the West in the 21st century. Have a good look at the anti-Gaza demonstrations in 2009: they consisted of Muslims, together with the usual demonstration suspects of communists, far left trade unions, anti-globalists, anti-Americans.

It is not an incidental coming together. Sometimes in full alliance, in France forged by Tariq Ramadan. (Earlier in this thread brought up by Hax as a man wanting to build bridges. Quite so: Tariq Ramadan preaches Muslim integration indeed, an integration that consists of integrating Jihad, antisemitism, mysogyny in Western society.)



Wikipedia seems to offer a balanced and concise article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism



New antisemitism is the name of the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, emanating simultaneously from the left, the right, and Islam, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel.

The concept generally posits that much of what purports to be criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.[citation needed]

Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and demonization of Israel, or double standards applied to its conduct, may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism.[1]

Critics of the concept argue that it conflates anti-Zionism with antisemitism, defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly and demonization too broadly, trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, and exploits antisemitism in order to silence debate.

[Beskar]

I have to admit Louis, that description is one of the most disturbing I have ever read.

While there may be case examples where a bigot might criticise Israel for whatever reason, pretty much labelling anyone who criticises Israel as anti-semitic is just asking for trouble, and I have to agree with the "Critics of the Concept". The concept itself should be burnt with fire. Especially as some one just threw completely different views like "anti-Americanism" as chocolate sprinkling.

That concept needs to have an extreme make-over. It completely disregards important factors which have nothing to do with "prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion."

For example, what does "anti-Americanism" have to do with anti-semiticism ? Even then, what do you define as "anti-Americanism", would it be akin to "Anti-British Empire" ? Opposition to an oppressive power, with ringleaders such as Gandhi ? The American Economical and Cultural empire (with its hyper-power status) will obviously have opposition in other nation states.

Then there is anti-globalization, which is defined as "Critical of the globalization of corporate capitalism". How is that anti-semitic? Just because there are a couple of jewish CEO's or something? Just because there is a jewish ceo doesn't mean it is anti-semitic, especially if that person is against muslim ceo, christian ones, etc.

I agree that unjustified criticism of Israel or a double standard towards it is bad thing. However, criticising Israel for something it has done wrong, doesn't actually mean they are anti-semitic. For example, the whole boat incident, many forum users disagreed with the actions that Israel did. Does that mean they were anti-semitic? No at all. They would have done the same thing, even if it was Muslim country, Western, American, *insert country here*.

It doesn't allow for the reaons why people might support something and their aims. For example, Muslim radicals might be going "Death to Israel!", then you have other radicals going "Israel, obey international law!", then others going "Stop it with Human rights violations!". The thing is common is they have an anti-israel stance in some way, however, they all have different reasons, objectives and aims.

The whole concept is akin to nuking Afghanistan in attempt to kill Osama bin Laden. It ensnares too many innocents and an utter distator.

[Fragony]

I am getting sooooooooooooooooooo sick of this, the selfcongratulating morally superior gutmensch know the people doing it are the new jews, right.

[Fragony]

The article said it was Arab teenagers, so this is probably just typical thuggish behaviour. Is there any evidence of serious levels of anti-semetism throughout the Muslim community (maybe there is, I really don't know)?

Are you kidding me?

@Hax, just because they aren't all doing it doesn't change the fact that they are the only ones doing it. We got a word for it, fincidenten.

By the way, do you agree with Tariq Ramadan that women should have their eyes peeled to the concrete at all times? His words not mine.

[Meneldil]

Oh, come on! There are no go areas in Europe for almost any group you care to describe. I've read there are no-go areas in france for the Police for example. English people in some areas of Glasgow is not wise either.


Ever wondered what is the ethnical and religious background of the people who live and rule the no-go areas for the police in France? ~:smoking:


Then explain the fact that Tariq Ramidan, amongst others, have called the treatment of Jews as animals and the like as horrible and not fitting in western society.
Wow, I never thought someone would have the nerves to quote Tariq Ramadan in such a topic. Congratulation sir, you've just made my day :)


Because after mediaeval religious antisemitism, and 19th/20th century nationalist / racist antisemitism, we are currently witnessing a third form of antisemitism: la nouvelle judéophobie.
Actually, leftist antisemitism (based on pseudo economical analysis) has existed since the 19th century. I point you toward "L'Antisémitisme à gauche. Histoire d'un paradoxe, de 1830 à nos jours", by Michel Dreyfus. Some fringe of the left didn't wait for Israel to preach antisemitism.

[Fragony]

Oh you can take it back further http://www.marxists.org/francais/marx/works/1843/00/km18430001a.htm ;)

[PanzerJaeger]

Surely the irony of a man with a Panzerjaeger for a sig decrying rising antisemitism in Germany should be a telltale sign that the world has changed? That old allegiances have shifted? :beam:

Those were never my allegiances. ~:)

The link between Nazism and modern Arab anti-semitism is fascinating, though.

[Fragony]

Those were never my allegiances. ~:)

The link between Nazism and modern Arab anti-semitism is fascinating, though.

No :daisy: Not everybody can see this, or they can actually see it but it doesn't leave the realm of perception, but I think they can actually see it and ignore it because it shouldn't be true and they got it all wrong allll the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi7GdviIsjQ

[Beskar]

A Off-topic Note:
I would just like to note, I am not against Israel existing as a nation, it is on the same level as pretty much other nations (Britain, etc). Just because I have criticised Israel, doesn't mean I support nations such as Saudi Arabia, Iran or China, which I view as "below" Israel in terms of human rights abuses, democracy and other measures. I shouldn't have to make this point obvious, as I would automatically assume based on previous posts on other threads, that the reader would automatically know I am pretty much critical of everything. As such, when I criticise America, doesn't mean I support the USSR (which I actually rank lower than America). Because I criticise Bush jr and Republican Right doesn't mean I support Obama and the Democrats (I just view him as a lesser evil between the two. I rather vote the British Conservatives than Obama).

[Fragony]

Ain't taking the middle ground comfortable bliss, can always be above everything.

[Slyspy]

Isn't this whole thread about the problems that occur when people adopt extremes?

[Fragony]

Isn't this whole thread about the problems that occur when people adopt extremes?

Can I please get extremily angry when people are attacked for no reason at all?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Why not. Just don't start attacking people in turn. ~;)

[Beskar]

Isn't this whole thread about the problems that occur when people adopt extremes?

:laugh4:

I am not adopting a middle-ground, Fragony, what those Muslim attackers did were clearly wrong and should be punished. There is no question over that. However, are we just going to rage about it pointlessly, or are we going to look at the root of the problem, and find ways to tackle sensibility.

[Reenk Roink]

There's a reason why this problem with Muslims is not present in America. Muslims here are some of the most well educated and affluent citizenry. Compare that to the demographics in Europe and along with the higher population percentages it's not hard to see why there are problems. :rolleyes:

Not that we don't have our own social/cultural problems, as seen with the continued (though relatively mild) implicit racism against Black people in particular, plus this situation with Latinos and the dumb Arizona government, but it's nothing like the awful state of Europe thank god.


tbh I don't think the Muslim countries are backward because of Islam. The fact that they are backward probably means they interpret Islam in a way that suits their culture.

The Bible could just as easily be used as the Koran to promote an intolerant, hate-filled, bla-bla etc religion.

But it generally isn't these days. It's all down to culture.

Religion obviously serves as a justification, and even in some cases a motivation, but consider that in Lebanon say, there was a survey that showed that Muslims and Christians viewed each other overwhelmingly "favorably" while both groups viewed Jews overwhelmingly "unfavorably" (to anticipate expected reactions by some people, not you Rhy: don't be a loser and ask for a link, use a search engine and find the Pew Global Attitudes survey about 4 years ago yourself), and you'll get the idea that maybe the antisemitism and related feelings seem to cut across religions in a similar political and social context.

Just like Muslims in Europe have the same religion as Muslims in America, but Europe just generally is not as cool as America, for various reasons. Check out French and German Pew attitude surveys on Arabs and Turks and compare with American surveys on Blacks and Latinos and you will see a difference. :shrug:

[Centurion1]

Arab culture is incompatible with wrsternculture. You can have one or the other trying to blend the two is absolutely futile.

[rory_20_uk]

I'm sure the same was said about Japanese / Chinese / Indian / whatever culture. Cultures are not set in stone and all have altered over the years.

Yes, there are those from all camps who look back to a past that probably never existed where the world was more like what they wish it was now, be it everyone off "their" land everyone of "their" religion or everyone of "their" ethnicity.

But things do change. Cultures do mix and blend. In the same way one can't see evolution from a time frame of a few years cultures also appear fixed. Increase the time and the merging is in fact relatively fast and frequent.

~:smoking:

[Hax]

Wow, I never thought someone would have the nerves to quote Tariq Ramadan in such a topic. Congratulation sir, you've just made my day :)

I am happy to have been of assistance :bow:. Seriously though, Tariq Ramadan. I certainly do not agree on all he says, but hey, don't complain that there's nobody trying.

@Cute Wolf: About living as a Buddhist in Iran; right now? No. In ten years? Probably not. Under the administration of the current regime, I think trying to live there as a Buddhist or Hindu or Sikh isn't too good of an idea. On the other hand, I have my doubts on whether the Revolutionary Guard will come storming in the very moment I get in there.


I'm sure the same was said about Japanese / Chinese / Indian / whatever culture. Cultures are not set in stone and all have altered over the years.

Yes, there are those from all camps who look back to a past that probably never existed where the world was more like what they wish it was now, be it everyone off "their" land everyone of "their" religion or everyone of "their" ethnicity.

But things do change. Cultures do mix and blend. In the same way one can't see evolution from a time frame of a few years cultures also appear fixed. Increase the time and the merging is in fact relatively fast and frequent.

I couldn't agree more.



You can have one or the other trying to blend the two is absolutely futile.

Thereis only one thing I can say to nonsense like this: Al-Andalus.

Because you, Centurion, have had so much experience with Arab culture, eh?

[Centurion1]

I don't know I do have a friend humza who is muslim and there's the ghani family the folks who live on our street. My uncle is married to a lebanese woman. Oh and I've been to bahrain to visit my dad when he was stationed in the gulf. Have you been to an arab country before hax? I believe your family is algerian, algerians are berbers, neh?

I have a word for you hax.... well two actually, don't presume.


Oh al andalus........ hmmm spain under the muslims aye? Which they conquered on jihad from the......was it visigoths?. And then fought the franksuntil they got walloped by charles martell, the frankish hammer?

[Hax]

Have you been to an arab country before hax?

Yes. Due to political circumstances I cannot go to Algeria, but rest assured, I have seen my part of the Arab world.


Have you been to an arab country before hax? I believe your family is algerian, algerians are berbers, neh?

Algerians constitute Arabs and Berbers. I come from a shared Arab and Turkish family on my father's side. My grandmother was half-Berber, half-Arabic, I think. My grandfather was Turkish.


Oh al andalus........ hmmm spain under the muslims aye?

I think it's called Iberia, the last time I checked. Also, apart from the fact that it was ruled by the Ummayads, Almoravids and Almohads (as well as the rule of the tawaif inbetween), the legacy of the polycultural society as we know it from cities like Granada, Cordoba and Toledo was continued well after the Castillian Reconquista.

Do you know why the Almohads rose to power in the first case? Because of the perceived unorthodoxy of the Almoravid rulers, who did too little to try and prevent the conquest of the taïfa states by the Castillians. However, they had their own schemes. And thus, we see how religion was once again (ab)used by people with political goals.


And then fought the franksuntil they got walloped by charles martell, the frankish hammer?

Actually, the last time I checked, the battle was a stalemate. That's right; there was no decisive victory of the Franks nor the Muslims (although the army also included Persian Zoroastrians and Christian and Sabaïc Arabs). Apart from political goals, there is no historical basis to claim this...Clash of Civilisations.

[PanzerJaeger]

There's a reason why this problem with Muslims is not present in America. Muslims here are some of the most well educated and affluent citizenry. Compare that to the demographics in Europe and along with the higher population percentages it's not hard to see why there are problems. :rolleyes:

Just like Muslims in Europe have the same religion as Muslims in America, but Europe just generally is not as cool as America, for various reasons. Check out French and German Pew attitude surveys on Arabs and Turks and compare with American surveys on Blacks and Latinos and you will see a difference. :shrug:

While I do agree that America is better at welcoming, accepting, and eventually assimilating immigrant groups than Europe, I think that trying to blame the problem on Europeans is misguided. The reason we do not have as many issues with Muslims as Europe does is because they constitute such as small percentage of the population. And even with such a small population, it is incorrect to say that America has not had a problem with radicalized Muslims. The fact is, we are having constant problems with them.

Most recently, American Muslims have shot up an army base, attempted to bomb Times Square, and traveled to Pakistan to get terrorist training. Some of the most effective mouthpieces for Al Qaida have been Americans. Since 9/11, there has been a constant stream of terrorist cells discovered in this country, not to mention the honor killings and anti-American madrassa stories that have cropped up in the news.

Our politicians and media, smartly, yet frustratingly, do everything they can to minimize the links between these people and Islam to avoid further radicalization (among other reasons). Make no mistake, though, that while integration may be a contributing factor to this issue, radicalized, violent Islam is the main driving force behind it.

Consider the situation with Mexican immigrants. They are marginalized in American society, and many people resent them. However, you do not here about them attacking Jews (or any specific ethnic group) or blowing things up.

[Centurion1]

What determines the winner of a defensive battle is whether or not the defender is thrown back. Unless you claim the Muslims won the battle in this sense and invaded wwsten Europe further I would say the battle was a Frankish victory.

I don't care about the composition of the forces arrayed against the franks, if they were persian zoroastrians they were conscripts probably some levy out of persia. Or mercenaries who worship coin.

Muslims were the leaders and initiators of the raid and the identity of a corps lies not within some buck conscript from persia but with its leaders, who on one side were muslim and on the other were christian (with some secret pagan feelings likely)

I would consider this a "clash of civilizations" and a fight for european survival. If the moslems had been victorious then western europe would have fallen shortly after the franks. And while you can talk all about how christians would not be forced to convert but only pay a tax, show me a middle eastern country besides israel without a vast muslim demographic.

[Reenk Roink]

While I do agree that America is better at welcoming, accepting, and eventually assimilating immigrant groups than Europe, I think that trying to blame the problem on Europeans is misguided. The reason we do not have as many issues with Muslims as Europe does is because they constitute such as small percentage of the population. And even with such a small population, it is incorrect to say that America has not had a problem with radicalized Muslims. The fact is, we are having constant problems with them.

The crux of the matter isn't even America being more welcoming than Europe. Obviously I think that is clearly the case, but it isn't the main factor. The main factor is the demographics involved as I explained above.


Most recently, American Muslims have shot up an army base, attempted to bomb Times Square, and traveled to Pakistan to get terrorist training. Some of the most effective mouthpieces for Al Qaida have been Americans. Since 9/11, there has been a constant stream of terrorist cells discovered in this country, not to mention the honor killings and anti-American madrassa stories that have cropped up in the news.

Our politicians and media, smartly, yet frustratingly, do everything they can to minimize the links between these people and Islam to avoid further radicalization (among other reasons). Make no mistake, though, that while integration may be a contributing factor to this issue, radicalized, violent Islam is the main driving force behind it.

Consider the situation with Mexican immigrants. They are marginalized in American society, and many people resent them. However, you do not here about them attacking Jews (or any specific ethnic group) or blowing things up.

Also recently we have seen a non-muslim guy crash a plane into a government building intentionally and a non-muslim guy go and try to shoot up the pentagon. The former issue saw the perpetrator list various grievances against the government and advocate violent revolution. Though no motive was absolutely established for the latter incident, the perpetrator was also clearly another anti-government fanatic as determined by investigation, and his choice of target was quite telling for speculations of his motives. Of course, these issues were simply not given the media attention that the Fort Hood and Times Square incidents were given. I am absolutely sure that had the perpetrators been Muslim the media attention would have been much higher. Quite telling.

I believe the last honor killing story I read about, albeit a few years ago, was committed by an Assyrian Christian father, and at that time it was quite convincingly shown that it crosses religious boundaries frequently, rather it seems to be localized from certain areas of the world as a cultural practice. And I live about 30 minutes away from Dearborn, and I pretty much know for a fact by very causally following local news that reported hate crimes directed at the Arab American population there, far outweigh any kind of violence or radicalism on their part.

The fact that radical Islam poses a threat is clear, but that threat is extremely small, as seen by the last two attacks. The simple fact being that an overwhelming majority American Muslims are not followers of radical Islam.

As for sentiments, such as the rising antisemitism which is the focus of this article, I believe the Lebanon example quite clearly demonstrates that these sentiments are overwhelmingly motivated by political and social factors with religious factors being an afterthought. A 2006 survey had 86% of Muslims view Christians "favorably" and 82% of Christians view Muslims "favorably" while both groups had identical percentages of 0 :shame: for viewing Jews "favorably." Furthermore, Muslims in Lebanon are among the most secular in the Arab and Muslim world with 50% saying religion is very important in life (which is less than the percentages of Turkish Muslims and Americans (of all religions)), but their support for suicide bombings is significantly higher than many countries that are extremely religious. The correlation doesn't seem to lie with religiosity, rather it seems to lie with proximity to Israel and prior history with it.

Another example of political and social factors contributing to such sentiments with religious factors seemingly being unimportant was that in 2006 during the Israel-Lebanon crisis, the support of Hezbollah was over 80% by both Lebanese Christians and Sunnis. Now, the support for Hezbollah is barely existent by Lebanese Christians and Sunnis.

So again, it seems to me that unlike in the highly specialized case of radical Islam which is the motivation behind terrorism from that group, more general sentiments of populations such as the ones discussed in this thread are much more determined by political and social factors than of religion, and the thesis that they too are religiously driven looks very weak in the face of the mounting evidence against that.

[Fragony]

Islam isn't the problem, we could perfectly live together if the loonieleft stopped seeing society as their testlab. But they will never accept anything other then absolute comfirmation of what they were already sure of.

[Slyspy]

Was this 2006 survey of Lebanon taken before or after Israel launched the invasion?

[gaelic cowboy]

Plus it was only a few years after Israel ended it's occupation of South Lebanon