Arverni Vs. Aedui

[MisterFred]

I've never played one of the Gallic confederacies. If I start a green campaign, which one should I choose? What makes the two different?

[Unintended BM]

Victory conditions and one unit, pretty much.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_carnute_cingetos.gif
Aedui

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arverni/arverni_arjos.gif
Arverni

Aedui's unit is probably better because it's more unique. Both are very good though.

Also, the Aedui have an easier time at the start. It's much easier to surround the Arverni and wipe them out quickly. That doesn't mean you'll have trouble at the start with the Arverni, both games are pretty easy once you get going anyway.

I personally like the Arverni skins better than the Aedui skins, but that's really personal preference.

[Brennus]

I usually go for the Aedui, again like Unintended BM i prefer the skins on the Aedui and the Carnutes units. I personally find the Averni starting situation easier though, all your units are concentrated in Transalpine Gaul rather then split by the Alps. Although if I am honest I have yet to succesfully complete a campaign as either (I have good feelings about my current one though!).

[Apázlinemjó]

I like the form of government of Arverni more, GOD KING! Their skins look nicer too. However Arjos is just a waste of mnai, at least 'till they have two weapons and keep switching them during the battle. That's why in MP battles I would go with Aedui instead of Arverni, but in campaigns Arverni all the way!

[athanaric]

Aedui

+ Unique unit: Carnute Cingetos
+ Gallic skins (also Mori Gaesum)
+ Goidelic skins - they come in ginger for this faction!!!
+ Democracy (well, at least no stupid theocracy)
+ Starting position (with port and further away from the Suebi)
+ Receive additional law boni from the Gallic council and Obelix' backyard


Arverni

+(-) Cool factional colour, probably too bright in the long run though
+ General (FM) skin - epic!
+ Historical reasons - they put up a fight against the Romans
+- Not so unique unit: Arjos. A slightly weaker but more numerous variant of Solduros.



Of course, this is my own PoV and for the most part highly subjective.

[Arjos]

The choice is yours as people said there are little differences between them:

Aedui: Democracy, bigger Type 2 Government area over different territories, bonus from special buildings in Armoriae and Mrogaule (not sure for the one in Tolosa), Carnute Cingetos.
Arverni: Elective Monarchy, eastern focused expansion, no bonus, Arjos.

Note: The Aedui will get in contact with the Romans sooner, the Arverni with the Sweboz...

About historical background, the lawful "masters" of Gaul are the Aedui, but the Arverni are a "new" emerging force...

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Hmmm... I actually find playing as either a little...., unsatisfactory. Not really anybody's fault, it's just that..., well, you can't war like Gauls. I have been toying with the idea of working on a mod, with particular regard to the Gauls.

So, what do I mean by not being able to fight like Gauls? Well, we have a description from Caesar as to the Gallic tactic for sieges, and there are no siege engines, no venaea(?), just a group of soldiers in Testudo formation who approach the gates and attempt to either break down the gates or undermine the walls (this is probably why Gallus Murus was utilised - a perfectly adequate defence against such actions). And that was by the middle of the 1st Century BCE....

So, taking towns just isn't on the agenda (if you want to role-play). I actually had a pretty succesful campaign as the Aedui; took all the towns down to Capua and only had a small contingent of Romani left at Rhegium before I had to face the Sweboz in my Northern holdings - but, as I have said, I found this (from a role-play perspective) very unsatisfactory.

But, the role-play option really isn't open to you either, because that relies on trading, and you are surrounded by enemies (the Arverni/Aedui and Eleutheroi), so you HAVE to campaign a la Romani.

This isn't a moan, by the way, it's just an observation. What's needed are; more Gallic factions, and more provinces in Gaul. But also, a slightly different take on the diplomacy side.... But, I don't really know how much one can do within the framework of the game's engine - something along the lines of raiding territories (or being raided) - rather than outright attacking towns, affecting the diplomatic options of your opponents (so's you can demand protectorates etc.) Is there anyway of scripting armies in provinces to affect the factions this way?

This would also allow for the inevitable Romani invasion to be something of a culture shock for the Gallic factions (and only then would siege engines come into play - as the Gauls showed vs. Caesar, they quickly learnt to copy the practices of the Romans..)

[Geticus]

I agree with Unintended BM that it is easier for the Aedui to vanquish the Arverni than for the Arverni to vanquish the Aedui, since the Arverni territories are more tightly clustered. Another key reason is that when playing the Arverni, your first attack tends to focus on the Aedui capital of Bibracte, which is well defended with a full wall and strong armies, so storming the town can be somewhat more costly. In constrast the Arverni have two armies holed up in poorly fortified towns, and one tends to sally out and attack you on a bridge, which makes for a very easy, rather exploitative win en route to the final siege of the Arverni capital of Alesia.

Aside from that, I would add:
Aedui are blond, Arverni are brunette
Aedui FMs are easier to see in battle because they wear red cloaks which are easy to spot, which makes it IMO a bit easier to keep an eye on the FMs in battle and make sure they don't get surrounded and killed
Arverni FMs have a big swan emblem atop their helmets, which I find aesthetically unappealing

Another major issue, if you play Gauls, you really ought to consider using the Druidic temples to enable your FMs to get druidic characteristics. While both factions have temples of Tanaris which aren't bad, the Temples of Cernunnos (Celtic Pan, the horned god) are the best of the bunch since they give a law bonus and a trade bonus, as well some war leadership bonuses. And the Aedui are the only ones who can build temples of Cernunnos.

As for unique troops, Carnute druids are powerful but expensive and elite. In contrast the Arverni have Arjos, which have high armor, excellent morale (15) which is very strong, they are reasonably priced, and of all Celtic troops I believe the Arjos are the very best of all at autocalc battles. Even on hard battle difficulty the Arjos perform well on autocalc and regularly survive and gain chevrons. Plus the Arjos have very cool shields IMO.

So if you are into the unique troops, I recommend going with the Arverni and building late game battlelines of Arjos.
If you are into a strong economy and elite generals, build temples of Cernunnos throughout Gaul and Britain and conquer the world with warrior-druid FMs.

[vartan]

So if you are into the unique troops, I recommend going with the Arverni and building late game battlelines of Arjos.
Reminds me: People do this online as Arverni, at least sometimes. It's a very strong force I'll say. 2k units each, but elite. Great anti-cav, great swordsmen...

[Cute Wolf]

Reminds me: People do this online as Arverni, at least sometimes. It's a very strong force I'll say. 2k units each, but elite. Great anti-cav, great swordsmen...

the Arjos may be seen as Elite from the MIC level, but mind you that they are historically used as very strong battle line holder, they are actually way to balanced the Arvernii, so they won't lose to Aedui (Carnute is elite, extremely good swordsmen, and still could "druidic chant" the line, who gave all nearby unit +5 attack, +5 defense skill, and some really big ammount of morale, effectively turning a line of bataroas and gaelaiche into a force capable of matching most elite infantry (but hey, the Drwdae also doing that... but they are relatively weak swordsmen, actually)

[seienchin]

+5Atack +5 Defense through chanting? Never heard about that. I thought it only strenghtens moral?

[Cute Wolf]

some articles in TWC said about that... as far as I remember

[vartan]

the Arjos may be seen as Elite from the MIC level, but mind you that they are historically used as very strong battle line holder, they are actually way to balanced the Arvernii, so they won't lose to Aedui (Carnute is elite, extremely good swordsmen, and still could "druidic chant" the line, who gave all nearby unit +5 attack, +5 defense skill, and some really big ammount of morale, effectively turning a line of bataroas and gaelaiche into a force capable of matching most elite infantry (but hey, the Drwdae also doing that... but they are relatively weak swordsmen, actually)
You're the historian of the world mate, I figured that out ages ago! But yeah, you tell me they're historically used as a battle line holder and then tell me they're used in the game to balance the Arverni against the Aedui. I don't think any intentional manipulation of what one would historically see to balance something out, or rather "balance" it out, would really be in-line with the whole historicity, understand?

+5Atack +5 Defense through chanting? Never heard about that. I thought it only strenghtens moral?
Don't count on it. I don't believe in most of this bull anyway. I've lost faith in all humanity (this is where you laugh). Unless I hear it from a CA developer, I ain't believin' ****.

[Cute Wolf]

too bad, twc is down.... :wall:

ADD : and if I was right, the logic behind that bonus was because the "command" bonus allready increased morale, and that don't need special manouvers to be performed (eq Druidic chant) - And Carnutes did allready had command

~ Cute Wolf (maybe I confused this ability with something else? anyone want to correct this?)

[athanaric]

(maybe I confused this ability with something else? anyone want to correct this?)
Maybe Warcry? That certainly increases attack.

[antisocialmunky]

There may be a small increase to attack or defense(sincei t makes celtic axemen >> principes but it is certainly not +5/+5.

But yeah, that's a good find for online. Its probably just like +1/+1 or +2/+2 with some moral bonus. Scary.

[Rahwana]

that was actually +2 attack and +2 defensive skill, the +5 he mentioned was morale bonus, and that bonus only applied for units in relatively small radius (just like the fear effect)

maybe he need to got a new pair of glasses :clown:

[antisocialmunky]

Fear effect has a huge radius last time I played.

[Rahwana]

Fear effect has a huge radius last time I played.

yeah, but definitley not an entire map :grin:
they are about 100 meters

[Burebista]

Well , my arjos and milnaht failed terribly against romans with uirodusios , drwdae and chariots nearby so that makes them ..very weak . For multiplayer at least.

I know Gauls get crazy when they get chevros so it should get fun in single player though.

[antisocialmunky]

yeah, but definitley not an entire map :grin:
they are about 100 meters

Which can be the whole army.

[The Celtic Viking]

Well , my arjos and milnaht failed terribly against romans with uirodusios , drwdae and chariots nearby so that makes them ..very weak . For multiplayer at least.

Well, my Arjos defeated Romans with Uirodusios but no Drwdae or chariots on the field, so I suppose that makes them super powerful.

[Burebista]

guard mode romans maybe?
never could stand them anyhow , bastarnae ftw!!!
anyway i yet to see a successfull celtic multiplayer match so....

[mountaingoat]

i have a few replays saved somewhere , i might dig them up for you .. celtic factions can "seem" fairly overpowered in MP when used in a certain way ... quite fun >=)

[antisocialmunky]

If you can murder all the Roman cavalry without getting shot to ribbons by arrows, you should be able to win quite easily. Otherwise guard mode Romans will destroy you.

[Burebista]

Maybe . Let's be honest , as celts , you have the Cidaihn so cavalry isn't your main issue. the issue is that no unit of 2000 mnai can stand against a 1700 imperial cohort. Tried them all , Teceitos with chevs , milnaht , arjos ,batacorii ,all with uirodusios and gaesatate near them.

I find that celtic units are very weak against armoured opponents but very powerful against skill-only defence. That 0.225 lethality isn't as good as 1.3 with AP

[antisocialmunky]

Chevronned up Teceitos are some of your best units against Rome. The only problem is that Rome can just sit in guard mode and tire your units to death.

[Apázlinemjó]

If you can murder all the Roman cavalry without getting shot to ribbons by arrows, you should be able to win quite easily. Otherwise guard mode Romans will destroy you.

Roman cavalry is not a problem, but the arrows. If you survive that part of the match with less casualties, you must win.

@Burebista, Gaesatae eats anything, you just used them wrong. If you force the Romani player to attack you, Neitos overpowers any heavy infantry which doesn't have AP. Naked spearmen's main purpose is to inspire and frighten. Teceitos are good, but not main-liners, they are flankers, also don't expect them to fight if they get a cavalry charge from the rear. Milnaht is even better than Neitos, though their lack of armour makes them too easy prey for arrows, don't use them in the center. Arjos, some player can use them, some not, I can't use them. Batacorii? Half-naked spearmen against a Romani cohort? Naaaaah.

[Burebista]

I've used them like Gaesatae in the mid arjos near them and milnaht on flanks .uiro in the back not engaging

Got 35 kills per unit against guard mode romani. Flanking wasnt an option as we were equally matched in numbers

Gaesatae did do 60 casualties truth be told

[vartan]

I've used them like Gaesatae in the mid arjos near them and milnaht on flanks .uiro in the back not engaging

Got 35 kills per unit against guard mode romani. Flanking wasnt an option as we were equally matched in numbers

Gaesatae did do 60 casualties truth be told
Sounds like another case of idle, guard-mode Roman infantry. I say idle because attacking, guard-mode Roman infantry fare worse.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

If your opponent is content to sit in guard mode and you can determine this, then shift your army to one side to overpower the flank. His units in guard mode will be slaughtered when flanked and you can use the extra units you shifted over to stop his other flank from coming to their assistance.