View Full Version : Europa Barbarorum: A Look Into the Past
Europa Barbarorum (or EB) is a total conversion modification of the computer video game, Rome: Total War (or RTW). It is a total conversion modification (or mod) because it modifies virtually everything that is possibly modifiable. Because EB is a total conversion mod that builds upon the foundation that is the RTW engine, it is as vulnerable (if not more) to the bugs, glitches and limitations of the original, unaltered game. These bugs are beyond the scope of this essay. Rather, this is an introduction to Europa Barbarorum: A Look Into the Past (henceforth: EBLIP), a community research project that collects studies proposed, conducted and presented by members of the EB community at the Guild forum online.
That is the first paragraph of the essay that introduces the project, Europa Barbarorum: A Look Into the Past (or EBLIP). Read it for more information on the project. It is essentially a community-wide research project I started for EB.
vartan, "EBLIP Introduction (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B8pgdrJqBnJBZjc0NGNhMDMtYWE4MC00ZjBhLTkxMTktNzQ0NWNjMzNmMjFi&hl=en_US)" (2010).
Completed Studies (Chronological)
MisterFred, "On the Use of Elephants in Multiplayer (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B8pgdrJqBnJBNTcwMjljNzYtM2M1Zi00NmQ4LWJkMmEtNTlhNWNmYTA5N2Zi&hl=en_US)" (2010).
vartan and Apázlinemjó, "The Macedonian Phalanx (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B8pgdrJqBnJBYWMwNmU3OWYtZDk5Zi00NmRmLWEzZDItZDVkY2NkZjI0MDcw&hl=en_US)[/URL]" (2010).
vartan, "[URL="https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B8pgdrJqBnJBMDEyODQyY2MtNzAzMy00ZjI0LTlkZmYtM2Q5NjAzMjMzMGFj&hl=en_US"]Guard Mode: Imperial Roman Cohorts and Classical Greek Hoplites (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YilqYuna581_NaDbW86OZcb67G_F5_4P5tO3TaRink8/edit?hl=en_US)" (2010).
gamegeek2, "Elites vs Regular Phalanxes (http://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1ZQajd6tqe8Fo1gSCkWhI3xmm6KRT3nw48a1axITfr1Q&hl=en)" (2010).
Proposed Studies
None yet.
Gaius Sempronius Gracchus
06-30-2010, 09:33
That's from the essay that introduces the project. You should read it here (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8pgdrJqBnJBZGI5Mjg3NjctZDc3Zi00ZTdlLWJjMmMtOWIyYTAyN2JkNTY3&hl=en) (and even download the PDF for reference) to understand what the project is about. It's essentially a research project.
There's also a partially completed study on the Macedonian Phalanx featuring EB's Pezhetairoi. Read it here (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8pgdrJqBnJBZjJlYzQwZGUtZDEyZC00Y2I1LThlZTMtMDMwZjQxZmNkZjc4&hl=en).
You know, this is what I really like about EB, the depth of it. As far as it being essentially a research project..., I can well understand that. As I have said in another thread, I have been looking at how to make the Gauls a more historically playable faction and, just the act of thinking through the changes required opens avenues of new thinking on the relations bewteen the various factions - and also the political machinations acting within those factions.
I have to say here..., a big thankyou to the team at EB, for making this classical era come to life through means of a pretty limited game engine.
Apázlinemjó
06-30-2010, 11:19
We can finish it today.
About the phalanxes' one, I've noticed that the depth is crucial too, a phalanx 12 men deep (Huge size, to resemble a square) almost doesn't take casualties...
Apázlinemjó
06-30-2010, 12:14
About the phalanxes' one, I've noticed that the depth is crucial too, a phalanx 12 men deep (Huge size, to resemble a square) almost doesn't take casualties...
We used the standard formation (what you get when you enter the battle), because our purpose was to find out which is better, guard mode off or on at attacking and defending phalangites. In MP battles players tend to use wider lines, because it's more important to prevent your opponet from outflanking you.
Gaius Sempronius Gracchus
06-30-2010, 12:49
That's from the essay that introduces the project. You should read it here (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8pgdrJqBnJBZGI5Mjg3NjctZDc3Zi00ZTdlLWJjMmMtOWIyYTAyN2JkNTY3&hl=en) (and even download the PDF for reference) to understand what the project is about. It's essentially a research project.
There's also a partially completed study on the Macedonian Phalanx featuring EB's Pezhetairoi. Read it here (http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8pgdrJqBnJBZjJlYzQwZGUtZDEyZC00Y2I1LThlZTMtMDMwZjQxZmNkZjc4&hl=en).
Out of interest, as I'm planning on attempting to create a provincial campaign using the EB mod, is there anyway I can contribute my findings with regard to the Campaign Map?
Out of interest, as I'm planning on attempting to create a provincial campaign using the EB mod, is there anyway I can contribute my findings with regard to the Campaign Map?
This is a proposed community project. What that would mean (as it would mean for any wiki) is that 1 or 2 people cannot possibly conduct all of the tests possible, at least all of the tests people would love to see completed. If anybody tests, whether it be in single player campaign, or multiplayer with the AI or a friend (friend preferably), that data, analysis and so on can be very useful to others. Anything of the sort would be appreciated, and presumably the only people reading would be either 1) already be interested in such tests or 2) simply put, curious. It wouldn't only include battlefield tests but those are probably the main ones. At least the main ones that I myself would complete because of my relation to EB Online and so on.
Intranetusa
07-01-2010, 00:19
Macedonian phalangite sarissa phalanx vs arrows test: Get a bunch of your friends together (you need a lot of friends), give em cardboard cutouts to roughly resemble phalangite shields, then give them 18 foot poles. Line em up in sarissa formation, and shoot blunt arrows at em. Make sure you give your friends goggles or helmets so nobody gets their eyes poked out...
Or you can use straw dummies and real arrows...but where's the fun in that? :D
antisocialmunky
07-01-2010, 04:57
Unless your opponent also has phalanxes, then the square phalanx beats the wide phalanx especially if there is a quality difference between phalanx of the square and the line formation.
Unless your opponent also has phalanxes, then the square phalanx beats the wide phalanx especially if there is a quality difference between phalanx of the square and the line formation.
@Intranetusa: This is a research project, not a joke.
@munky: Phalanx vs Phalanx you would much rather take the phalanx with a deeper formation as it would beat the enemy phalanx one on one. The problem is you easily get flanked and lose the game. Our tests are micro-situational and don't (need to) take into account such larger factors. This isn't a whole battle test and I highly discourage such tests. These micro-tests will be expanded and don't expect Adam and I to do all the work. I'm not going to be here for a month or so; I'll be leaving in less than 3 weeks. One thing I'd recommend and I'm really sorry my poor memory, I forget who mentioned this test to me, but one thing you can test is have a Dacian phalanx, whether light or heavy, against a roman legionary and leave the phalanx in guard mode defender, have the Roman attack with guard mode off and on with 1 falxmen unit attacking the Roman legionary directly at its side, guard on and off, one time on the left of the legion and one time on the right. This is just one example. There are millions of tests and hopefully this won't turn out to be a two-man show. That would be disappointing. I've lots of faith in this community.
The study on the Macedonian phalanx of EB is complete. The originally posted link has been updated to correspond with these changes.
Guard Mode - Imperial Roman Cohorts and Classical Greek Hoplites (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8pgdrJqBnJBYTQzMzhkMmUtZGNlZC00Mjg4LTk5OTgtZjNkZTgwNmQ4Nzdj&hl=en)
A study on how cohorts fare against attacking non-Guard hoplites (and light spear units, armoured or not). Finished over a week ago but uploaded today.
gamegeek2
07-17-2010, 08:04
EB - Argyraspids and Pezhetairoi (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1ZQajd6tqe8Fo1gSCkWhI3xmm6KRT3nw48a1axITfr1Q&hl=en)
A study on the effectiveness of Argyraspids against Pezhetairoi
EB - Argyraspids and Pezhetairoi (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1ZQajd6tqe8Fo1gSCkWhI3xmm6KRT3nw48a1axITfr1Q&hl=en)
A study on the effectiveness of Argyraspids against Pezhetairoi
Thank you and happy birthday bud ;)
President
07-17-2010, 17:07
EB - Argyraspids and Pezhetairoi (https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1ZQajd6tqe8Fo1gSCkWhI3xmm6KRT3nw48a1axITfr1Q&hl=en)
A study on the effectiveness of Argyraspids against Pezhetairoi
Hey GG, why don't you do the exact same study but with the Phalanx mod from TWFanatic... you can find the link in Intranetusa's OP regarding state tweaks in the EB submod directory... the mod changes the phalanx spear from "light spear" to "heavy spear" so that should have some effect on the "pushing" of the phalanx...
gamegeek2
07-18-2010, 17:04
Pushing is based on mass, mainly. IIRC there is no "heavy spear" attribute. THere is "spear" which is known to cause formation problems.
antisocialmunky
07-18-2010, 17:22
There is also the importance of standing density vs attacking density. The best pushers are units like hoplites that have ridiculous mass but also have a ridiculous different between densities when sitting and attacking.
There is also the importance of standing density vs attacking density. The best pushers are units like hoplites that have ridiculous mass but also have a ridiculous different between densities when sitting and attacking.
Don't you find it ironic that hoplites push better when attacking with guard off and with some of the lowest densities in the game?
antisocialmunky
07-18-2010, 18:12
Why would that be ironic?
Why would that be ironic?
They would have to push in formation. Silly engine. Low density is for noob-engines!
Seeing that this is a community project, I would like to welcome and include any and all EB-related pieces by fans. I shall include MisterFred's On the Use of Elephants in Multiplayer (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8pgdrJqBnJBNWM5YmZlNjEtNWU4NC00NzQ2LWEyOWUtMDJlMzY0MzZhZjE2&hl=en), a beautiful piece.
What I dont know is why people complain when against eles? I fought Fred 2 times and lost badddly but I didnt complain he didnt announce everyones happy. Isnt there a rule against whiners?
What I dont know is why people complain when against eles? I fought Fred 2 times and lost badddly but I didnt complain he didnt announce everyones happy. Isnt there a rule against whiners?
There are online etiquette guidelines that are enforced (they are, believe me, we've already banned a couple of people). As for elephants and chariots, there is no rule saying you must announce them. Just improve your game and make your army versatile (i.e. if you forget to bring any jav-armed men, your problem).
@Vartan; I have a crapload of time over the next two days, I can do all the tests you want just PM me the time in GMT format and Il confirm
People, feel free to make suggestions for possible studies/tests. If the test absolutely requires two humans to make it work, you can use the EB Online networks to do so. There is another study coming your way pretty soon; I got positive reaction from a member whom I asked to publish his study.
Ludens et al, does this need to fall under Gameplay Guides or another sub-forum? If so, please move it as you see fit. Thank you.
Captain Trek
10-10-2010, 01:44
Vartan asked me to repost this preliminary cavalry study I posted in the "Let's talk about cavarly" thread:
Anyone who's read my "some random thoughts" thread will have seen me say the following about cavalry... I've decided to repost these points here because I feel they are pertinent to the thread...
Whilst wielding my Thessos like the mighty hammer that they are, I seem to have discovered what makes cavalry charge without having lowered their lances (and thus not dealing the level of damage that they should). It seems to be that if they facing away from the unit they are ordered to attack when already inside of charging range, they wheel around and run into the enemy unit without leveling their lances. In contrast, I've found that if they were either initially outside of charging range when told to attack (and thus given sufficient time to get turned around before entering charging range), or else within charging range but facing the enemy, they seem to almost invariably lower their lances successfully. This may not be all there is to cavalry failing to lower their lances, but taking it into account has made my already powerful Thessos (not to mention my general's bodyguard, which is quite large as he's the faction leader and has a good influence score) even more deadly...
3: I've seen the constant complaints about heavy cavalry tiring too quickly, but honestly it doesn't appear to be as big of a problem as many make it out to be. Sure tired Thessos are slower, but not only have I found that my Thessos often stubbornly refuse to drop below "winded" (wherein they are still relatively fast), but that even being exhausted doesn't appear to affect the power of their charge all that much. Case in point, the recent battle I mentioned earlier against three 'tolly armies coming at me from three different directions. My Thessos and general were charging around the battle field hammering infantry units and chewing up skirmishers for ages and were soon exhausted, but during the process of mopping up what was left of the enemy force after things swung to my favour, I charged one of these exhausted Thesso units onto the back of a unit of engaged and undamaged unit of Klerouchoi, the unit suffering 10 casualties on impact and another 15 within the next second or two, the Thessos suffering only one or two casualties (and that's not a hyperbolic statement, it was literally either one loss or two, but I cannot remember which) in return. The Klerouchoi then proceeded to rout and my Thessos cut them down pretty much before they could even start running. 30-odd casualties is what I would, from my experience during the campaign, expect fresh Thessos to deal upon charging into the rear of a well-ordered medium phalanx, so if exhausted ones are only losing a little over 15% of their charge effectiveness, I personally consider that to be pretty good... And as I said, they're hard-pressed to drop below "winded" most of the time, from what I've seen...
In addition, I have now run some custom battle experiments to see whether the observations I made of my Thessos hold up in a controlled environment... Turns out, they don't in the least... What I did was play as Makedonia with a unit of Phalangitai Deuteroi and a unit of Hetairoi vs a unit of Selukid Pezhetairoi. I'd let the Selukid phalanx walk onto my own and then hit it in the back with the Hetairoi at different stamina levels, testing each of fresh, winded, tired and exhausted three times and counted how many troops the Hets killed before "bogging down". The results were interesting to say the least...
Fresh: The Hetairoi dealt 18 kills before "bogging down" on the first trial, 24 on the second and 20 on the third.
Winded: 24 on the first trial, 20 on the second and 23 on the third.
Tired: 13 on the first trial, 15 on the second and 16 on the third.
Exhausted: 9 on the firs trial, 21 on the second and 9 on the third.
That second "exhausted" trial appears to be an outlier. If we ignore it, it appears from these preliminary tests that the charge of vanilla Hetairoi is all but identical at "fresh" and "winded", but loses around a third of its standard effectiveness at "tired" and perhaps 60% of its standard effectiveness at "exhausted". If this is true across the board (and I'll run this test again with Thessalikoi when I can be bothered), then my observations of my Thessos in my Makedon campaign (which is now finished, by the way) must be due to terrain features or else upgrades and veterancy (though I could have sworn the unit I am refering to in the above quotation had only a weapon upgrade and one bronze chevron, which you wouldn't think would make such a massive difference).
I also did some quick tests with Hippakontistai (mostly for giggles) and Hippies (to see how the so-called "medium cavalry" would fare), again with the cavalry charging onto the back of Pezhetairoi pinned by Phalangitai Deuteroi (Deuteroi so they'd be less likely to kill many of the Pezhos themselves) . I only did these tests on "Fresh" (I may do them on the other fatigue levels later)...
Hippakontistai: 4, then 0, then 2.
Hippies: 8, then 4, then 8.
The difference between the Hippies and the Hetairoi is quite staggering, with their fresh charge being less effective than the exhausted charge of the Hets... Again, I actually used Hippies in my Makedon campaign and I could have sworn they were more effective than that (if a little casualty prone)... I don't know, maybe my choice of unit explains the differene (certainly Pantodapoi Phalangitai were my most common main-line enemy in that campign, which are weaker than Pezhos), but regardless, it does indeed seem that being tired or worse is severely degrading to a unit's charge. I do plan to do more tests later, but for the moment, what do you think of these preliminary results?
I'll certainly be running more tests into the future, but for the moment, I'd like it to be known that Sauro bodyguards appear to have trouble maintaining formation and charging when they're within a town. I find I can normally pin down whatever's on the town square with infantry (in the case of this Sauro game usually a unit of merc infantry hired to provide a battering ram crew) and charge into their backs with my generals and other heavy cavalry for massive damage, but my Sauro bodyguards just wouldn't do it for me and wound up having to slug it out toe-to-toe with the square defenders... This is not, however, a problem on open fields. Even when the bodyguards still have arrow ammo, holding the alt key (for their lances) and double right-clicking causes them to run at the enemy in formation, and then switch to their lances and lower them as they come into charging range, so that's fine...
I'll certainly be running more tests into the future, but for the moment, I'd like it to be known that Sauro bodyguards appear to have trouble maintaining formation and charging when they're within a town. I find I can normally pin down whatever's on the town square with infantry (in the case of this Sauro game usually a unit of merc infantry hired to provide a battering ram crew) and charge into their backs with my generals and other heavy cavalry for massive damage, but my Sauro bodyguards just wouldn't do it for me and wound up having to slug it out toe-to-toe with the square defenders... This is not, however, a problem on open fields. Even when the bodyguards still have arrow ammo, holding the alt key (for their lances) and double right-clicking causes them to run at the enemy in formation, and then switch to their lances and lower them as they come into charging range, so that's fine...
This is an engine-related issue and not specific to certain units or factions. Also, want me to do the write-up, PDF upload, etc. (a la paradigm prescribed) or do you plan on it?
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.