View Full Version : Difference between cosensual sex and rape... in the eyes of too conservative law
Cute Wolf
07-02-2010, 12:13
So, let me start with this sad story of my friend.
Basically, he was a rather good person, but with a free mind, and with free-sex attitude attached with him (contrast with the nation we lived on), and will seduce and bang almost every girls he got close with, and he was proud of that. Yep, he always boast about that, and never listen to my advice, until it was too late. Before this thing happened, he never heard my advice about the consequence that could befall on him, and what could you see, he got the fruits of his actions....
So, he got some kind of sex friend with no clear relations between them, with a girl from another faculty in our university. And after he comes back to Bandung in June, it looks like he often visit and go with her very very often... yeah, everything going fine for him, until two or three days ago...
It looks like that girl's parents caught him sleeping with her in some sort, and they demand some eplanation from that girl, and what did she said... she said that My friend was forced her to have sex with him (in other way, she said that she was raped by him), and of course, her angered parents report that to the Police (rape is crime that could lead him into 20 years custody).
Yesterday, the police pick him up and he was still in the temporary police custody now, despite he said that their sex relations was cosensual. He just called me (and some of our close friends too), and ask us to help him, but the bail for his temporary relase is too high for us, mere students. Even if we know that girl was actually some sort of bitch that will open her legs for anyone, that wasn't a valid defence for our friend that now lies in custody. First, we think to counsult some sort of private lawyers, but after the prices was too high, we're know that our poor little friend's life was doomed, he will face first trial for his "crimes" next Monday, and the lawyer police gave to him for consultation is unfortunely a woman, and she just accused him more, and actually ask him to admit his "crimes" (heck, that was cosensual, and that was not a rape, we allready tell her, but she don't listen to us and said that was every rape criminal's friends will tell).
So, in desperate atempt to save our friend, we decide we'll help with his defence (that was permitted if we act as witness), but after some discussion, our mind goes blank and can't help him in some ways. Some of my friend actually also had slept with her, but if they said that, they could be accused of rape too, while I personally never have any sexual experience (still a virgin :grin:). And this time, I just remember that most westerners is more open minded about sex, and could help us in this case.... is there some case when cosensual sex turned to be reported as rape because parent's intervention in the past, and is there some ways that the accused turned the table? What is the defence used then?
Thank You
Sincerely
Cute Wolf
*. NOTE : DO NOT ASK ABOUT THIS IN MY FACEBOOK PAGE, you can pm me about this anyway, we're trying to cover this case from our poor friend's family, that's why I ask this international community because there is slim chance that you know about him...
rory_20_uk
07-02-2010, 13:00
Won't stand up. Has happened frequently, no previous attempt to seek help, no injuries, probably known about by lots of friends on both sides.
No witnesses, so boils down to her word vs. your friend's. Innocent until proven guilty.
Just like the numbers who say they are drugged. Every study has shown that the only thing they are "drugged" with is alcohol. But parents are much more sympathetic to "a nasty man slipped me something into my lemonade" than "I was rat arsed after 30 shots in 1/2 an hour".
~:smoking:
He would be pretty much screwed here, guilty until proven innocent when it comes to sexual assault. You can help him there by destroying her reputation, but that is pretty much murdering her.
Does the Indonesian justice system have a reputation for, er, being just? Do you get a state provided lawyer? Is your mate innocent until proven guilty etc.?
Cute Wolf
07-02-2010, 13:17
He would be pretty much screwed here, guilty until proven innocent when it comes to sexual assault. You can help him there by destroying her reputation, but that is pretty much murdering her.
yeah, I wonder why she wasn't just tell the truth that she was a bitch then? But now, she had shown that she allready killing my friend's reputation and possibly ruined his life if he was sentenced as guilty of sexual assault, He will be expelled from school, stays in custody, his family will be ashamed, and such.... We allready told that she wasn't an innocent girls, but what should we do specifically as witness in his trial?
Does the Indonesian justice system have a reputation for, er, being just? Do you get a state provided lawyer? Is your mate innocent until proven guilty etc.?
yeah, he got state provided lawyer... but at least they could gave him A MAN, who will got sympathy with him, not AN OLD WOMEN that was more symphatetic with that girl (the lawyer always treat that girl as "the victim")
and about innocent until proven guilty... well, in the case of murder or any thing that don't involve sexual things, maybe that's fairly applied, but when that sensitive things getting touched, all women rights actifists and child protection, especially the international-linked one will cry for harshest treatments available...
I know nothing about law, let alone Indonesian law, but I would imagine it wouldn't help if you called her a bitch. The best I can come up with is try to get other people who have had sex with her, and who can prove it was consensual (Text messages, Chat Room logs etc.) and use them to back up your statements. Otherwise, I'm guessing an .Orgah with more knowledge of the law would be of more use...
Cute Wolf
07-02-2010, 13:25
I know nothing about law, let alone Indonesian law, but I would imagine it wouldn't help if you called her a bitch. The best I can come up with is try to get other people who have had sex with her, and who can prove it was consensual (Text messages, Chat Room logs etc.) and use them to back up your statements. Otherwise, I'm guessing an .Orgah with more knowledge of the law would be of more use...
well, so I guess I'll order my friends to be more "open" about their past relationships with her, and summon all the required proof that was cosensual sex running with them..... thanks for the idea anyway... BTW, that wasn't online affair, that was RL, but I guess text messages on the phone, and some more witness could be used for the proof :bow:
Any chance to play dirty and take it to shariah court? No 5 witnesses; never happened. It's going to haunt him anyway nothing to do about.
Cute Wolf
07-02-2010, 13:45
Any chance to play dirty and take it to shariah court? No 5 witnesses; never happened. It's going to haunt him anyway nothing to do about.
actually I'm glad Indonesia didn't have any Shariah court bar Aceh
if there was, the male maybe got the upper hands, but then, think about the effects on real rape reports...
Isn't there a way to request another state funded defense council?
Tellos Athenaios
07-02-2010, 16:38
If your friend is the type to brag about his escapades, and if he has been dating that girl for some time; chance would be that *his* phone, IM, calendar, w/ever contains traces that explain this if it was a consensual relationship, right?
EDIT: Not being a lawyer nor having any experience/data to back up the claims; but it seems to me that these cases are won on the “innocent until proven guilty” line, so what you have to do is not necessarily prove that she is having sex with anything with two legs (and even if that were so, it does not actually directly prove that therefore this case was *not* rape). Rather you would need to prove that the two were having what amounts to a sexual relationship; that both partners agreed (voluntarily) to meet for sex; and that it is logical to assume that what went on in the bedroom between them was consensual. The latter follows more or less from (1) and (2) providing there is no direct evidence to the contrary, which is probably an important point to stretch: is their (no) direct evidence to make you doubt that this encounter was anything other than consensual sex, regardless of the morality of such an encounter?
Haudegen
07-02-2010, 17:05
we're trying to cover this case from our poor friend's family, that's why I ask this international community because there is slim chance that you know about him...
With all due respect, I´d say that´s a mistake. His family will find sooner or later anyway.
I´d advise you to find a good lawyer with experience in this kind of matters. With the help of his family you hopefully should be able to finance the lawyer. And your friend should not talk to any outsider about his case, until he´s gottn consultance from the lawyer of his choice.
My best wishes for you and your buddy...
Hold on.
For rape it needs the use of violence (mainly physical).
So, first, where was he "caught"? In her or in his flat/house room?
Does the girl had bruises or any marks of violence?
Is there a possibility of witnesses seen her following your friend willingly and ready to testify? (even if this by itself is not enought).
He needs a certicate from a doctor that he had no traces on violence on his body (as the girl trying to defend herself in case of rape).
Unfurtanetly, he is in bad position...
Just hoping his lawyer will be good and ask the right question...
Seamus Fermanagh
07-02-2010, 21:00
Hold on.
For rape it needs the use of violence (mainly physical).
So, first, where was he "caught"? In her or in his flat/house room?
Does the girl had bruises or any marks of violence?
Is there a possibility of witnesses seen her following your friend willingly and ready to testify? (even if this by itself is not enought).
He needs a certicate from a doctor that he had no traces on violence on his body (as the girl trying to defend herself in case of rape).
Unfurtanetly, he is in bad position...
Just hoping his lawyer will be good and ask the right question...
Coercion for rape need not be physical. Psych intimidation, blackmail, etc. Her/state attornies will undoubtedly be arguing that this "man of the world" intimidated her with his rep/"coolness" or whatever and she felt she couldn't say no or that she would be ruined socially. Wtinesses demonstrating the pattern of behavior for each -- past sexual liasons -- will go far in corroborating his story.
Political factors at play? Who is "Daddy?"
a completely inoffensive name
07-02-2010, 21:23
...
Cute Wolf
07-02-2010, 22:22
Coercion for rape need not be physical. Psych intimidation, blackmail, etc. Her/state attornies will undoubtedly be arguing that this "man of the world" intimidated her with his rep/"coolness" or whatever and she felt she couldn't say no or that she would be ruined socially. Wtinesses demonstrating the pattern of behavior for each -- past sexual liasons -- will go far in corroborating his story.
Political factors at play? Who is "Daddy?"
well, actually both of their parents (my friend and that girl), was just usual parents, neither held some high position, but as far as I know, my friend's parents are just mere employee in another city, and that girl's parents are just mere shop trader in another city - BOTH can't afford private lawyers because neither party was rich enough to do that. That case (after some toughts with our circle friends as well as getting more information about that accidents by details, as well as asking some girls who also know about that case), was actually simple enough, a girl's parents got mad after they found a condom under her bed when visiting her recently (note : we all university students and we're usually rent house here in bandung), they demand explaination (as every parents will do), and the girl just not saying anything, and when her neighbours was asked, they said about my friend is the one who leave her house in wednesday morning. Of course, giving that facts, when she was being investigated by her parents, she said my friend forced her to do that... And her parents immediately called the police to arrest him.
And what is worse, he got into the custody, and police sent him state provided lawyer for legal consultation, but as I allready pointed out, that lawyer cause things to going worse for him because that lawyer was AN OLD WOMAN, and she just persuade him to confess that he indeed forced her to have sex instead of saying that was cosensual, because "everyone that does sexual violences never tought they actually doing that" of some, annoyingly repeatable sort. Of course, because luckily, we are also present when the lawyer was initially sent to him, we advice him before to not to agree with that, since agreeing that will just prove that he was guilty, and maybe that lawyer was just a mere trick to see if the criminal confess (as they usually do - state funded lawyers afterall, good for real crimes, bad for false accusations). Of course, this night, he still sleep in the cell along with some other petty criminals in the local police department, but tommorow, maybe we'll try to seeing him again.
As for my friends, some did knows that to prove that wasn't a forced sex, is very2 difficult, some even advice us to just gave the bails and run, but we did try our best to keep his parents away from that case, because if they know that, they will just accused my friend more and all things will be screwed really badly, he actually have very bad relationship with his parents, so keeping about that is his request). My friends here are still discussing what we should do tommorow and what arguments we can bring for his defense, but in case of Indonesian law was refrenced, there was no clear definition separating "cosensual sex between adults that wasn't married" and "rape by force of will", and what is worse, is that we didn't have any law covering the rights to do any sex before marriage (but nothing forbid that either, so that was really gray area in law, and if the law can't be used, judge will use common moral values and that would meant that we will got religious consideration play in this case - and according to my friend's and that girl's that could lead to some islamic laws taken into consideration, even though my friends and I also believe his girls, was non practicioning ones, they drunk alcoholic beverages and ate pork as often as christian or hinduist does (as most young students here, they are either annoying religious fanatics, or completely non practicing one)
I actually want to ask her, why not just said that she bought those condoms out of curiousity, and all will be fine, instead of said to her parents that she had been forced into sex with my friend? but alas, we can't discuss about that with her directly for now...
And some of my friends said that if they finished reading and understanding the law about this, they will made a stance that they also had some cosensual sex with her, and they could search for more witness, but that was only three (inculding my friend in custody) out of seven in our close circle (2 never slept with her, and 2 never have any sexual experience), maybe we'll try to contact some other friends that could help in defence though.
Cute Wolf
07-03-2010, 04:51
well, time to go to that office again, hope we'll get something good in the way...
aimlesswanderer
07-03-2010, 11:05
I'm not a lawyer, but if you can prove (with witnesses, text messages, photos, emails etc) that they were in a relationship for a while, and that they were seen together by witnesses (who can testify/swear an affidavit) being a little affectionate (so as to not get arrested for public indecency), that might suggest that the relationship was consensual. Maybe messages about how much she likes him etc may be helpful.
Many Australians don't have a high opinion of the judicial system in Indonesia, but with a case in which neither side has any influence/friends or relos with influence, and which is not used by a group to highlight an issue, it shouldn't be too bad. But what you say about the state appointed lawyer is a serious problem for your friend, as there must be a vast number of things she could do to obstruct the case or make him look guilty. Don't suppose you can complain that she is biased/unsuitable and get a different one?
Sounds like he needs all the help he can get, good luck.
Out of curiosity: How a "finding a condom" can g to a rape case? Every bdy who did wear this kind of things, even in a very consual way, take take, calm and concetration. NOT stress of a rape... And it is NOT something you can wear in case of...
Tellos Athenaios
07-03-2010, 21:34
The condom proves nothing in and of itself. (Not that it was rape, nor that it wasn't; and depending on the state of the condom it cannot even be proved that there was any sex at all.)
Centurion1
07-04-2010, 06:37
My uncles a lawyer I talked to him. First off if his defense attorney is as bad as you say then appeal for a new lawyer on grounds of incompetence or improper representation. Once you have a decent lawyer you have to build a morality case against the girl. You need to create an aura for the jury of this girl as being a slut. You need to contact the authorities and see what exactly occured with the "investigation" luckily for you if all they have is an affidavit or testimony from the parents, your friend and the girl it becomes he said she said. Furthermore it may not be admittable for the parents to speak on the daughters behalf as it creates an unfair bias against the defendant and may even be hearsay.
Try to get to local papers and stir up some indignation and tell your friends parents that's ridiculous not telling them.
If everything you say is true he should get off scot free. If you want to get really down and dirty hire a private lawyer and file a defamation suit immeadiately.
Try to get to local papers and stir up some indignation and tell your friends parents that's ridiculous not telling them.
The parents hate him, apparently, and the papers will give a story about a rapist. Both bad ideas.
aimlesswanderer
07-04-2010, 08:53
Unless the paper has high journalistic standards the most likely story they'd run with would be less than helpful. Definitely don't want to get the religious hardliners involved, so best to keep it quiet.
Centurion1
07-04-2010, 15:40
Beskar..... I meant the young mans parents.
Maybe the news was a bad idea but what if the parents of the girl go first or the news hears of it on their own. Look this vcase if everything you say is true cute wolf is on ridiculously thin ice for the prosecutor and if your defense attorney can't see that she is incompetent an untrained toddler could get you out of this one with the proper jury.
Beskar..... I meant the young mans parents.
Which i said, Cute Wolf said that the "young mans" parents hate him and basically disowned him, etc and would make the situation worse.
ok, let me clarify the situations of our friend now (all of us, including CW and me are university mate)
Last wednesday, or even before, our friend go to that girl's room and get some sex, but apparently, he forot to throw the condom outside the house, and that was slipped under her bed (well, that was used condom filled with sperm - CW apparently didn't know about that, if that condom was only bought out of couriousity, from where the sperm are?), some time afterwards, after our friend leaving that girl's house, her parents suddenly come and enter her room too suddenly (as most parents do here, they have duplicate keys of their children's house), and of course, they found her sleep naked in the bed, and found that used condom under her bed.
Well, if you found your daughter laying naked in bed, and there was a used condom nearby, what will you do, especially if you are muslim and lived in highly conservative (even if only outward) community, that condemns extra marital sex as griveous sin and extreme taboo. Her partents then drag her to the local clerics, and forced her to confess about what just happened... of course, if she confess that she did that because that was her "rights", her family will get total dishonour and could be shunned in her home city (a highly religious city), so she said that my friend and her did have several sex allready, but he forced her to "serve" him, or she will be physically abused (or killed, I don't remember in detail).
And as you may predict, the case was reported into Police authorithy, and they took our friend soon afterwards, they did provide lawyer, but actually, that lawyer was one who want to heard about the "true story" first (CW maybe calls her annoying old women when he wrote this thread, but for now, the lawyer's image allready better for us, I'll explain about that later), and she keep accusing my friend of extorting her for sexual gratification until Sunday (without our knowledge of course), but he always refused to confess (that was really cosensual afterall). And if CW said about our friend's parents... well, his parents did hate him because our friend (as well as most of students here) was actually de facto atheists (well our society is assumed to be religious one, but actually almost equally divided among religious fanatics and complete atheists, and those fanatics hate the atheists very much), so calling them for help or even consideration could lead them to said "well he will be better introspect himself in jail!" rather than actually helped him.
The lawyer was actually a good one, sunday morning, she explains to us, why she act as if she was symphatetic with that girl's cause, that was to made her sure that this case are not real sexual extortion case, and she also explained that a third of reported rape case here, was actually outraged parents report the sexual partner of their adult (but unmarried) daughter as a rape. She then explains that we must stop playing silly (such as constantly arguing with the police, or try to collect money to pay the temporaty bail), and let the law prove itself in the process. She asked us, if there was another man who also had sleep with her (and one of them was me), and she asked if we can gave some witness that we're doing that regularly and that was cosensual because we were adults, if some men said that, the judge will consider that case was just some kind of parental anger, and that case will be solved in the wyes of the law, of course, those men's name in religious society will be stained forever and that girl's live will also doomed, but the lawyer then explains that was one of the consequence of doing extra marital sex in a society that was still highly conservative. Well, I and one of my friend will took position as witness and try to talk everything about it, so our friend could be relased without any guilt, but then, for I myself, I don't mind to be seen as "sinners" because I allready lived completely alone on myself, and believe that individual liberty is more worth than what so called "morale", because morale is a relative one.
Well, maybe Cute Wolf is still sleeping because he was the one who drove the car all two days long... (too bad, he was not yet an adult :wink:)
aimlesswanderer
07-05-2010, 15:28
Good news, and I hope that things do work themselves out. Am I ever glad I live here where religion is much less of a concern.
I am glad to live a life where religion has no place at all.
yeah, yesterday moring, the trial was for hearing the witness, and thankfully, that was closed one and only 4 of us attend that, after we decide that CW and 1 other friend that was not an adult yet (well, in sense of sexual experience), shouldn't mixed up with us there (another one act as the car driver now), because this trial will definitely discredit everyone who attend them as witness (as most fanatics will presumed that you are immoral brats, so let's the real immorals took the consequences, afterall that was just a temporary stigma, especially for males like us and we're doing that for a friend :grin:). The result are actually mixed, the trial was delayed until next week, but the judge seems to be fine with what we said, and there is no objection occured in the defense given...
The real problem here seems to be the taboo against young people having safe pre-marital sex. Get rid of that, and you won't have a problem.
rory_20_uk
07-06-2010, 13:49
Idaho, whilst I completely agree with you that the outdated, archaic, frankly nonsensical collection of customs and practices we for some reason respectfully call "religion" is in this case, as in oh so many the root cause it ain't going to shift any time soon.
~:smoking:
aimlesswanderer
07-07-2010, 13:38
This is what happens when modernity runs headlong into centuries old societal values.
Maybe when your kids are at uni things will be very different, given the fast rate of change.
ajaxfetish
07-07-2010, 17:09
This is what happens when modernity runs headlong into centuries old societal values.
Maybe when your kids are at uni things will be very different, given the fast rate of change.
Not necessarily a good thing. It could mean their kids will have to wear burkhas when they go to college.
Ajax
So, no one suggested a Polygraph test?
rory_20_uk
07-08-2010, 13:19
Inaccurate at the best of times. If you know what you're doing you can mess with the results further.
~:smoking:
pevergreen
07-08-2010, 13:30
Inaccurate at the best of times. If you know what you're doing you can mess with the results further.
~:smoking:
Even so, I'd love to be put under one. I believe I could bull my way through.
aimlesswanderer
07-08-2010, 13:47
Not necessarily a good thing. It could mean their kids will have to wear burkhas when they go to college.
Ajax
Possibly, though Indonesia has changed alot in just their lifetimes, and if that trend continues their kids may be able to wear bikinis at uni (ok, maybe their grand kids, but fairly soon anyway).
rory_20_uk
07-08-2010, 14:15
Even so, I'd love to be put under one. I believe I could bull my way through.
The usual way to make the results inconclusive is to "react" to the control question and others that you shouldn't react to. Methods I've heard suggested are to have a hard stone in one's shoe to press on / bite one's cheek or to clench one's rectum. All will alter sweating / breathing and pulse rates.
Of course, this is wildly different from not reacting at all to any of the questions. I believe one can train to be able to do this - but it's much harder.
~:smoking:
actually we're half between it, some fanatics did gain momentum since afghanistan militants spread their faith here, but as long as you can see clearly here, half the students at uni wear jilbab, but half wear bikini like tanktop under thin cover of semi transparent blouse... (really), half of them loathe even smell of alcohol, but half drunk beer and eat pork regularly.
*. I talk about everyone who has "Islam" in their ID card (including me), but actually little more than aheist
Inaccurate at the best of times. If you know what you're doing you can mess with the results further.
~:smoking:
It is not the results that matters.
What matters is how they react to being told to being put to the test and being explained the dire consequences when found out they are lying. My guess is a confession from either part before the actual test finds place.
Myrddraal
07-09-2010, 15:04
You have to put your religion on your ID card?
Yep, Indonesians have to. And IIRC they can't put N/A or athiest or whatever.
Yep, Indonesians have to. And IIRC they can't put N/A or athiest or whatever.
and the statistics then lied with calling Indonesia "the biggest muslim country", actually there is more atheists than muslims :wink:
Skullheadhq
07-13-2010, 14:40
Oh, for a moment I thought CW was mentioning you, Sonic.
If my friend was accused of rape I would deny all allegations and constantly, constantly ask for the proof that he actually raped her, like bruises of some sort, without evidence he won't be convicted for anything.
You should also keep an eye on the girl, maybe she (or her parents) will inflict injuries upon her, and when that happens and they use that as 'proof', it's game over. You should also seriously try to find the others she slept with, that way the joke about 'our sweet little, pious girl who would never have premarital sex' would be over and your buddies' story will sound much more realistic than hers'. If you know her email, try to fill in the security question with some social engeneering and look for clues of sexual partners, that's where I would start.
You should maybe even ask her friends to testify, or just call them to the stand. They should probably know if she had previous sexual partners. Hope this helps!
Cute Wolf
07-13-2010, 15:38
and the statistics then lied with calling Indonesia "the biggest muslim country", actually there is more atheists than muslims :wink:
not really true, despite that, where is another country with more than 70 million muslims? yeah, all we know that it was common knowledge that muslim percentage here are marked up, but they still the largest one in the world, unless India had more muslims or every arab nations populations got doubled suddenly.
Oh, for a moment I thought CW was mentioning you, Sonic.
If my friend was accused of rape I would deny all allegations and constantly, constantly ask for the proof that he actually raped her, like bruises of some sort, without evidence he won't be convicted for anything.
You should also keep an eye on the girl, maybe she (or her parents) will inflict injuries upon her, and when that happens and they use that as 'proof', it's game over. You should also seriously try to find the others she slept with, that way the joke about 'our sweet little, pious girl who would never have premarital sex' would be over and your buddies' story will sound much more realistic than hers'. If you know her email, try to fill in the security question with some social engeneering and look for clues of sexual partners, that's where I would start.
You should maybe even ask her friends to testify, or just call them to the stand. They should probably know if she had previous sexual partners. Hope this helps!
well yeah, that case is allready gone into straight conclusion now, our friend will be sooner or later declared innocent :beam:, but the trial is delayed again to hear the objection of the "victim", because the prosecutor allready demand our friend to be freed and declared innocent...
gosh, I start to pity that girl, she was utterly completely doomed....
BTW, Sonic also had past affairs with her... and she was now a launghingstock between most of us, everyone who had slept with her made a long commentary about her... But at last, that wasn't her fault at all, that was her parent's fault... yeah, but it was now backfire on them... dammit, those over-zealous religious parents...
Skullheadhq
07-13-2010, 16:44
That's good to hear, what will happen to the girl, will she be sued for slander or something?
Cute Wolf
07-13-2010, 16:58
no sue back then... that case could drawn some unwanted attention, and thankfully, the trial and examination was closed one, we just hope to not causing that to be spread out wildly, or our friend could be fired from univ. If that don't spread out badly, they can close their eyes. But if that gain unwanted public attention, BOTH party are doomed to be fired from univ, but the girl will suffer more.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.