Iranian Mother to Be Stoned to Death [Archive]

PanzerJaeger

07-05-2010, 19:55

This (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/07/05/iran.stoning/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn) isn't really even news at this point, but by sharing this woman's story, at least she will not die in vain.

What a horrible, disgusting aspect of Iranian culture. I feel awful for the women (and other "lesser" groups) born into it..

Ashtiani, 42, will be buried up to her chest, according to an Amnesty International report citing the Iranian penal code. The stones that will be hurled at her will be large enough to cause pain but not so large as to kill her immediately.

Ashtiani, who is from the northern city of Tabriz, was convicted of adultery in 2006.

She was forced to confess after being subjected to 99 lashes, human rights lawyer Mohammad Mostafaei said Thursday in a telephone interview from Tehran.

She later retracted that confession and has denied wrongdoing. Her conviction was based not on evidence but on the determination of three out of five judges, Mostafaei said. She has asked forgiveness from the court but the judges refused to grant clemency.

Iran's supreme court upheld the conviction in 2007.

The majority of those sentenced to death by stoning are women.

Mostafaei believes a language barrier prevented his client from fully comprehending court proceedings. Ashtiani is of Azerbaijani descent and speaks Turkish, not Farsi.

The circumstances of Ashtiani's case make it not an exception but the rule in Iran, according to Amnesty International, which tracks death penalty cases around the world.

"The majority of those sentenced to death by stoning are women, who suffer disproportionately from such punishment," the human rights group said in a 2008 report.

Seamus Fermanagh

07-05-2010, 20:00

PJ's views on the Iranian culture do not necessarily reflect the personal opinions of the moderating staff. The .org takes no position on such issues.

Posters will please approach this topic with restraint and discretion.

Lemur

07-05-2010, 21:05

What a horrible, disgusting culture in which to be born.
In fairness, the xenophobic, racist, sexist, retrograde culture of the hardline mullahs does not equate all of Iranian culture. That said, this is horrible, evil and a perversion of justice.

Brenus

07-05-2010, 22:06

Yeah.
Would be better to kill her on a electric chair, or perhaps a good lethal injection. Fire squad, perhaps?
Death penalty is barbaric. Full stop.
Whatever the reasons and the means.

Subotan

07-05-2010, 22:57

Barbaric government, certainly? Barbaric culture? Resorting to such slurs makes us no better than the chanters of "Death to America".

Yeah.
Would be better to kill her on a electric chair, or perhaps a good lethal injection. Fire squad, perhaps?
Death penalty is barbaric. Full stop.
Whatever the reasons and the means.
Happily, nobody was executed in Europe last year, for the first time ever. We can only hope that such enlightenment will spread over the next few decades.

PanzerJaeger

07-05-2010, 23:11

Barbaric government, certainly? Barbaric culture? Resorting to such slurs makes us no better than the chanters of "Death to America".

I don't take a relativist view of the two cultures. Neither is perfect, but one is better than the other, full stop.

However, I have edited the post to reflect your, Lemur's, and Seamus's more nuanced positions.

Sasaki Kojiro

07-05-2010, 23:13

PJ's views on the Iranian culture do not necessarily reflect the personal opinions of the moderating staff. The .org takes no position on such issues.

Every org moderator thinks that death by stoning for adultery is horrible. Why do you think he's talking about Iranian culture as a whole? He isn't saying their food is horrible. This approach hamstrings any attempt to talk about cultural issues. It should be obvious what "horrible, disgusting" refers to (the facets of the culture involved with misogyny and religious fundamentalism").

Barbaric government, certainly? Barbaric culture? Resorting to such slurs makes us no better than the chanters of "Death to America".

Same mistake seamus made with some weird equivalency thrown in.

Yeah.
Would be better to kill her on a electric chair, or perhaps a good lethal injection. Fire squad, perhaps?
Death penalty is barbaric. Full stop.
Whatever the reasons and the means.

You can't see the difference between lashing someone until they confess and slowly killing them for adultery and giving a lethal injection after a fair trial to someone for murder?

********************

:furious3: :p

Louis VI the Fat

07-05-2010, 23:26

There are those who would incite racial and religious hatred against all Muslims and they are not shy about using incidents such as these to gain support. This may make it hard for people of goodwill to talk about this issue. And yet, to fail to do so is to abandon millions of women worldwide, and lord knows how many in Europe too.

This resonant book portrays the ugliness of fundamentalist Islamic mob justice in Khomeini-era Iran. Sahebjam, an Iranian journalist based in France who has written critically of the regime, returned to his homeland under cover in 1986. While visiting a small town he calls Kupayeh, he learned how an innocent 35-year-old woman had been stoned to death for supposed infidelity. His thorough reporting, based on a further visit to the village, reconstructs Soraya's life and killing with much dialogue and interior monologue. Soraya gave birth to nine children in 14 years and her husband Ghorban-Ali also turned to prostitutes. He became involved in shady business deals and began to associate with Sheik Hassan, a criminal who was appointed Ayatollah Khomeini's local representative. When Ghorban-Ali, having fallen in love with another woman, accused his wife of infidelity, villagers lied to aid him and Soraya was left with no support in the town. Her two eldest sons sat on the male tribunal that declared her guilty, and she was stoned by a mob that included her father. This book refuses to let such horror go unremembered.

http://www.amazon.com/Stoning-Soraya-M-True-Story/dp/1559702702It's not the Mullahs, perhaps not even Islam in the most direct sense (stoning, like gential mutilation, precedes Islam and does not geographically overlap). It is, however, a horribly mysogyist culture.

@Brenus - what Sasaki said.

Louis VI the Fat

07-05-2010, 23:30

I don't take a relativist view of the two cultures. Neither is perfect, but one is better than the other, full stop. I am inclined to agree.

Sasaki Kojiro

07-05-2010, 23:46

Brenus

07-05-2010, 23:49

“You can't see the difference between lashing someone until they confess and slowly killing them for adultery and giving a lethal injection after a fair trial to someone for murder?”
I do.
However: If she had been found guilty in a fair trial it would be ok to kill her? And if by lethal injection, not by stoning, it would be still ok?
And I far as I know, lethal injection is a slow process… Death row, 3 injections, not bad…
And what about giving a lethal injection after a total unfair trial biased by injustice and prejudices?

Some cultures (e.g. Italy) pay more attention to adultery than killing (so-called honour killings). So, to judge death penalty on our parameters is not a good approach.

“what Sasaki said.” Same answer.

Lemur

07-06-2010, 00:02

It's not the Mullahs, perhaps not even Islam in the most direct sense (stoning, like gential mutilation, precedes Islam and does not geographically overlap). It is, however, a horribly mysogyist culture.
Hmm. The story you quote is also horrible and evil. I don't see, however, why you're letting the Mullahs off lightly. If their reactionary, anti-female reading of Islam were not the law of the land, would abuses like this be so easily perpetrated? Let's not forget that Iran is almost unique in that region for having a tradition of a middle class and secularism. There's certainly more to Persian culture than citoridectomies and the torture-killing of middle-aged women.

It seems like people are more worried about their own country becoming more racist and intolerant than they are about the treatment of women in other countries.
Yes, well, on an average day I'd say being conscious of what's happening in your own backyard is a commendable thing. But to use it to create a false equivalence with misogynistic evil like this is ... misguided. At the least.

Hax

07-06-2010, 00:21

It is, however, a horribly mysogyist culture.

I think the seemingly institutionalised misogny ought to be studied more closely. While it cannot be denied that there is some rampant misogny going on, especially when it comes to official religious business. However, my personal experience (note: personal) is that the reason that all the men are out all day because they are afraid of their wives at home. At least, that's what I noticed in the Arabic world.

Keep in mind that this is Iran we're talking about. Generally, in the words of Reza Aslan, Iran is an interesting country because it has a (modern) history of philosopical nature when it comes to matters of religion (being a Shi'ite country). The most important difference between Shi'a and Sunni is the power of the interpreters (Mullahs and Ayatollahs) over the scriptures (Qur'an and Hadiths). While this can be subverted for political gains and for warmongering (Khomeini vs Rushdie), there's also a different aspect (Karroubi and women, for example).

I think the best thing "we" can do in the West is to give our support to imams and/or politicians with a pragmatist or liberalist agenda (Rafsanjani, Khatami and Al-Sistani, for example (although your mileage may vary when it comes to their liberalism) whilst condemning the hardliners (Ahmadinejad, Khamenei, Rezaei and such). While it will be difficult to change the popular opinion in Iran in our favour, I think it's very much possible. Especially since the Iranian youth is getting quite sick of the totalitarian extremist government.

Panzer: While your disgust is fully understandable and fully shared by me, I think the biggest mistake we can make is to blame the Iranian culture for stuff like this. We should blame and expose the government for what they are, instead of targeting the people.

EDIT: I'll just leave this around here... (http://niacinsight.com/2010/07/02/one-iranian-court%E2%80%99s-cruel-and-unusual-choice-of-punishment-death-by-stoning/) An excellent in-depth analysis of my favourite source when it comes to Iran; the National Iranian-American Council.

Louis VI the Fat

07-06-2010, 01:30

Hmm. The story you quote is also horrible and evil. I don't see, however, why you're letting the Mullahs off lightly. If their reactionary, anti-female reading of Islam were not the law of the land, would abuses like this be so easily perpetrated?Yes, oddly enough, I was about to edit my post concerning this bit. The Mullahs certainly are guilty of encouraging these crimes, and for stifling the growth of a more modern, enlightened society.

But these things are not merely imposed from the top down on an unwilling population. They stem from the religious fanaticism of old women, of a culture that regards women as disposable goods, of the female body representing the honour the family. The mullahs are as much the expression of this broader culture as its imposers.

Let's not forget that Iran is almost unique in that region for having a tradition of a middle class and secularism. There's certainly more to Persian culture than citoridectomies and the torture-killing of middle-aged women.It's almost all the more tragic that this stuff should happen in Iran, which in so many ways is quite modern too.

@Brenus - what Sasaki said.“what Sasaki said.” Same answer. That is delightfully understated humor. :beam:

Tellos Athenaios

07-06-2010, 02:39

You can't see the difference between lashing someone until they confess and slowly killing them for adultery and giving a lethal injection after a fair trial to someone for murder?

I think Brennus is specifically comparing being lynched (effectively) with being asphyxiated (gas chamber ), toasted (electric chair, known for being unreliable especially in the hands of all too frequent incompetent staff), the noose (which used to be the favourite English approach to execution, but it did have occasional gross side-effects or sometimes failed to actually properly kill at all) or getting a lethal injection which is supposedly painless... if the administration is competent at least, for which numerous cases have shown that this leaves something to be desired and that it is also not actually painless at all. There was this documentary a while ago about an English politician looking for a humane way of executing people (humane both for those who suffer the penalty, and also for those who suffer the sight of it), but suffice to say he came up short. In other words all forms of execution in common use are about every bit as bad as lynching.

To cross-reference with the slaughter of rabbits thread; did you know that there exists footage of how a gas chamber is tested? Those rabbits certainly did not die a quick, clean death.

Seamus Fermanagh

07-06-2010, 02:56

I think Brennus is specifically comparing being lynched (effectively) with being asphyxiated (gas chamber ), toasted (electric chair, known for being unreliable especially in the hands of all too frequent incompetent staff), the noose (which used to be the favourite English approach to execution, but it did have occasional gross side-effects or sometimes failed to actually properly kill at all) or getting a lethal injection which is supposedly painless... if the administration is competent at least, for which numerous cases have shown that this leaves something to be desired and that it is also not actually painless at all. There was this documentary a while ago about an English politician looking for a humane way of executing people (humane both for those who suffer the penalty, and also for those who suffer the sight of it), but suffice to say he came up short. In other words all forms of execution in common use are about every bit as bad as lynching.

To cross-reference with the slaughter of rabbits thread; did you know that there exists footage of how a gas chamber is tested? Those rabbits certainly did not die a quick, clean death.

While lethal injection is generally viewed as the most humane form of execution in the USA, I read an article recently that suggested the least painful and swiftest was France's contribution to the art, the guillotine. Nothing can take away the mental anguish of knowing you were about to be dead, but the guillotine (according to this piece, which I'm looking for but have not yet found) generated the shortest interval of pain etc.

I'd prefer killing be left to the battlefield. Protection of one's citizens requires governments to remove people from society permanently, but need not require their death.

Devastatin Dave

07-06-2010, 03:12

Reading someone equating the stoning of someone to lethal injection and attempting to make it comparably cruel makes me horny.

a completely inoffensive name

07-06-2010, 07:12

Reading someone equating the stoning of someone to lethal injection and attempting to make it comparably cruel makes me horny.

A naked woman usually does it for me. To each his own I guess.

Fragony

07-06-2010, 07:58

Awwwww that awesome place where rape is government policy sanctioned by his holy goatness. Have a nice death that is really going to hurt, they throw small stones, big ones makes them die too fast, what fun is that? Scream :daisy:.

Guttmensch knows it's a culture and has respect. Did you know that virgins can't be executed, so they get married to their guards and have a happy honeymoon prior to having loose feet.

These guys are helping, website is in Dutch but they speak English http://www.sfvi.nl/

rory_20_uk

07-06-2010, 09:28

Their country, they can do as they want. My country is to make sure they don't do it over here.

~:smoking:

Rhyfelwyr

07-06-2010, 13:09

Lethal injections are far, far from being a painless way of execution. If it was up to me I would take the firing squad any day. Although guillotine also seems a good option.

But hanging, injections, and especially stoning... :no:

rory_20_uk

07-06-2010, 13:33

Depends on the type of injection.

Hanging is again (when done by experts) quick and painless. Firing squad probably is quick and painless, but potentially messy: for best results a machine gun loaded with explosive rounds aimed at the head would be very quick, very painless and very messy.
Stoning plainly isn't as it appears more of a punishment than a method designed for quick dispatch.

~:smoking:

Centurion1

07-06-2010, 13:53

We stopped firing squad (thoughi believe a couple states have it) becausrofhow it affects the shooters. Studies proved most people aim to miss or wound...... which is when it can get messy. Personally we should have the gtieving family be the executioners.

Louis VI the Fat

07-06-2010, 14:32

I don't really care about the method of execution. Stoning is cruel and not befitting the 21st century. But if stoning was used to kill a mass murderer, I would only marginally object.

The problem rather is, who is executed, what for, by whom, to what end. This is the outrage.

What needs to be compared is not the killing of a convicted criminal with a lethal injection, but the treatment of adulterous women, family feuds, means of enforcing social norms.

Awwwww that awesome place where rape is government policy sanctioned by his holy goatness. Have a nice death that is really going to hurt, they throw small stones, big ones makes them die too fast, what fun is that? Scream :daisy:.

Guttmensch knows it's a culture and has respect. Did you know that virgins can't be executed, so they get married to their guards and have a happy honeymoon prior to having loose feet. Great sarcasm!

Lemur

07-06-2010, 14:51

Guttmensch
This is the third or fourth time I've seen you use this term. Google yields no useful English definition. So, for the benefit of English-speakers, what do you mean when you refer to "Guttmensch"?

Tellos Athenaios

07-06-2010, 15:39

Hanging is again (when done by experts) quick and painless. No the trouble is the weight of the victim. If the victim does not weigh to much, or the drop is too small, the force on the neck is not sufficient to break it during the drop which is why executioners used to have a pistol to administer a coup de grace in case of failure. If the drop is too large, the rope rips off the victim's head.

Stoning plainly isn't as it appears more of a punishment than a method designed for quick dispatch.

Well evidently. Perhaps that's why it's called death penalty, instead of state/medical assisted death. <_<

Tellos Athenaios

07-06-2010, 15:47

the least painful and swiftest was France's contribution to the art, the guillotine. Nothing can take away the mental anguish of knowing you were about to be dead, but the guillotine (according to this piece, which I'm looking for but have not yet found) generated the shortest interval of pain etc.
Incidentally that is why the French used the guillotine: designed to amputate limbs quick, effectively and relatively painlessly; they figured it was the most quick, clean and humane way to kill someone too, so they built a bigger version and used it for executions. Unfortunately (if your country still does the death penalty thingy) or fortunately (if it no longer does), it was abolished.

rory_20_uk

07-06-2010, 15:49

Yes, hence I said experts. Weighing the victim determines the length of drop.

The guillotine was supposed to make the death as painless as possible, as was the long drop hanging. There are far more painful ways to die if punishment was the only idea.

~:smoking:

Banquo's Ghost

07-06-2010, 16:20

This is the third or fourth time I've seen you use this term. Google yields no useful English definition. So, for the benefit of English-speakers, what do you mean when you refer to "Guttmensch"?

Having had a conversation with Fragony about this usage, I understand that it essentially means "do-gooders", particularly in the perjorative sense.

rory_20_uk

07-06-2010, 16:24

Good men by the look of it.

~:smoking:

rvg

07-06-2010, 17:44

A sad story indeed. I wonder if there has been any public outcry against this in the muslim world. This travesty will continue for as long as people in those countries are willing to tolerate it.

Beskar

07-06-2010, 18:15

It seems like people are more worried about their own country becoming more racist and intolerant than they are about the treatment of women in other countries. "our land shall not be soiled by a pundit being intolerant on tv" or something like that. And meanwhile...

Their country, they can do as they want. My country is to make sure they don't do it over here.

~:smoking:

This is bringing up another issue.

Some people here believe in the idea of nation states, therefore, only the citizens particular nations matter. Others are taking the international approach.

As an internationalist myself, I believe there are somethings which should be outlawed, etc, and these human rights should happen in all countries. Others on the otherhand, are nationalists, who seem just to use these incidents of going "we are better than them". There are are others as quoted by Rory "That is them, this is us, who cares about them? Care about us" which Sasaki says "I am more worried about the intolerance here than what is happening over there".

It brings about the multitutes of thought and reasons going on in this thread.

Husar

07-06-2010, 19:09

This is the third or fourth time I've seen you use this term. Google yields no useful English definition. So, for the benefit of English-speakers, what do you mean when you refer to "Guttmensch"?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutmensch

This I suppose.
Basically a german term for someone who means well but is too naive to achieve anything or uses, in the eyes of the one calling her/him "Gutmensch", the wrong methods to get there.
In this case it would be someone who would excuse the hanging of women as a cultural thing or ignore it sompletely with the aim of improving the relations between western and middle eastern cultures.
Fragony (surprisingly :laugh4: ) thinks that this is wrong and everybody should condemn this sort of behaviour.
Personally, I'm not sure anyone except the people in the middle east who support this stuff, would actually find this a good thing so I usually just ignore these parts of his rants. ~;)

Brenus

07-06-2010, 22:35

Let’s face it: There are no mild death penalties. The only death without fear is the one you don’t expect, e.g. mortar shell when you are resting –eating a good saucisson and drinking a quite good even if slightly warm Beaujolais- in your bedroom…

I am against death penalty, for whatever reason. Some countries will judge that killing a child is no importance but adultery is… All depend on the legislator.
Here, in what I read, I saw people offended first because the trial was rigged, secondly the cause of the trial, then the method of killing.
Yes, it is barbaric. But to be enchained in front of a machine gun for drug possession in Burma (or Thailand) is not really civilised… Having a head chopped in Saudi Arabia (you hope the guy know how to use the sword)… Strangulation in Spain until 1974… Gas Chamber in USA (depending the States) and North Korea…
It is civilised enough?

The poor women will be killed. The reproach is the method is just showing the cruelty of the penalty.
There is a kind of logic that in order to impose a middle-ages penalty the choice is to use middle-ages method.
What I don’t understand is it will be a crowd to throw the stones, happy not to be the ones at the receiving end….

Fragony

07-07-2010, 09:31

This is the third or fourth time I've seen you use this term. Google yields no useful English definition. So, for the benefit of English-speakers, what do you mean when you refer to "Guttmensch"?

You know the type, the self-congratulating morally/intellectually superior armchair-cosmopolitan leftist lemming. Impossible to talk with as they know they are the very height of decency and everybody else is a populist. They usually call themselves world citizens

http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=23852 heartbreaking. Sorry, not going to happen, your mom is going to be turned into a bloody pulp of meat and bones and it's going to be a very slow and very painful proces, I have seen how it goes. Awwwwwwwwwwww religion you just have to respect that. You really do, ask Wilders.

Myrddraal

07-08-2010, 23:50

I briefly heard on the BBC as they were doing the round of up tomorrow's papers that the woman in question won't be stoned.

PanzerJaeger

07-09-2010, 20:06

I briefly heard on the BBC as they were doing the round of up tomorrow's papers that the woman in question won't be stoned.

Me too! Apparently public pressure both outside and inside Iran caused the government to back down, which has happened four or five times now.

Excellent news, although she was still lashed 90 times and faces more extreme punishments, all without a fair trial. Her awful journey is far from over.