Online Law Degree

[ICantSpellDawg]

I believe that education is necessary for a successful and happy life, but I do not believe that it is worth what people charge for it. I've decided that, since I do not believe in the value presented by a physical university, that I should put my money where my mouth is and get a dirt cheap JD degree online.

I have my 4 year from Stonybrook and did reasonably well with a 3.64, but I truly don't understand why even that cost as much as it did. Do any of you have an opinion on the matter or experience that I could use? I just want to put it on applications for law enforcement.

[Lemur]

Like the old economist said, things that cannot continue indefinitely ... don't. I think of this maxim every time I hear that tuition for uni has gone up another 500%.

I think online degrees are going to become more and more common, given the insane and out-of-control tuition hikes for physical universities. No idea how the two will be valuated with each other, nor now online unis will be ranked and evaluated, but it should be interesting. I say go for it. Just google the living heck out of the one you're considering, make sure it's on the up-and-up.

[rory_20_uk]

Over here, ones such as the OIpen University are considered relatively highly. I'm sure there are others that are more of a money making exercise.

~:smoking:

[ICantSpellDawg]

In the U.S., only California admits online JD holders into practicing law. The ABA doesn't recognize online JD degrees. I'm not sure whether I should go to a cheap State school or do an online degree. Money will be the deciding factor. If I can spend 3k per year online (still too expensive) and the JD will be accredited, that sounds good, if It's 10k, I'd rather double down for the ability to pass the bar and go to a State school.

Education is artificially expensive and the bubble will burst soon. It should and can be nearly free to all who will work for it with the technology we have today.

[rory_20_uk]

Tech also allows people to live a lot longer, and so creates a massive reduction in effective wealth - we give the crumblies a lot of resources so that they can... use up even further resources. Although there is some economic gain, it doesn't offset the cost.

~:smoking:

[TinCow]

Well, I have a JD and in my experience it's useful for only two things:
1) Registering for the Bar, which you can't do without it.
2) Getting your first job as a lawyer.

For #1, the place that you got your JD from makes no difference whatsoever. Harvard is as good as a community college for the Bar. As long as the state recognizes your degree, it doesn't matter where it is from.

For #2, the importance of the school depends entirely on the job for which you're applying. If you're looking to be an associate at a top law firm, having a degree from a prestigious university will make a huge difference. If you're doing unpaid legal aid, it doesn't make a bit of difference where you went, as long as you're barred. Between those points it's a sliding scale. So, figure out what kind of work you want to get after you graduate in order to determine what kind of school you want to go to. Also be aware that lawyers can be a clique-ish bunch. Local or regional firms tend to hire from the schools their partners attended. If you have a JD from the University of Alabama, you'll have an easier time getting a job in Montgomery than if you had a degree from the University of Alaska.

After you've had your first legal job, the school on your degree means jack squat. After that point all the employer cares about is your experience and your references. So, do well in your first job and the school becomes an afterthought on the resume. It's the first job that's tricky, especially in this economy.

[edit] Also, if you're thinking about doing an online program to get a California bar license, you should be aware that your ability to practice law outside California will be severely restricted. You can practice federal law outside of the state you're licensed in, but for pretty much any other civil or criminal issue you have to have a co-counsel who is barred in the state you're working in. That's a major pain in the butt. I would thus not recommend getting a degree that is only useful in CA unless you plan on living and working in CA for a long time.

In addition, due to CA's low bar standards, no other state has reciprocity with CA for bar licenses (IIRC). That means that if you ever want to get a license for a state other than CA, your in-state experience is useless for you and you have to re-apply and take the bar again in the new state. If your degree doesn't meet that state's requirements for the bar, you will not be allowed to take the exam and will never be licensed. So, if you get a degree that is only recognized in CA, you will never be able to practice outside of CA without a co-counsel unless you get another JD from a different school. In contrast, if you get a degree from a school which is acceptable to most states, then you can join the bar in ANY state you want, after either waiving in or taking the exam. For example, I took the bar in Virginia and waived into DC without a second exam. Since I've been practicing on a VA license now for 5 years, I can also waive into about 35+ other states without taking the bar again, which is nice.

When it comes to the price of your JD, keep in mind that this does not include the cost of being a lawyer. The bar exam itself will generally cost about $1-2k, and a bar prep course (highly recommended) will run about $3-5k. In addition, bar dues tend to run about $250/year for an active license in each state you're registered in. If you join a bar association, there are membership fees for those as well. Also, if your state requires annual CLE, you will probably have to pay to obtain it if you cannot get enough free credits through work or other means. Finally, all lawyers have to have malpractice insurance. Some employers will pay this for you, but not all. If your employer doesn't cover it, you'll have to pay it yourself.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Thanks, Tincow.

How easy/hard is the LSAT? Maybe I should study for that, take it and then decide if I want to do this. Are there any ABA accredited schools in NY that will take a student without an LSAT? I'm a firm believer in getting around red-tape.


EDIT* - the ABA must refuse to accredit schools that do not require LSAT's. I've heard about accredited schools allowing a percentage of students to get in without them, any tips?

[TinCow]

Thanks, Tincow.

How easy/hard is the LSAT? Maybe I should study for that, take it and then decide if I want to do this. Are there any ABA accredited schools in NY that will take a student without an LSAT? I'm a firm believer in getting around red-tape.


EDIT* - the ABA must refuse to accredit schools that do not require LSAT's. I've heard about accredited schools allowing a percentage of students to get in without them, any tips?

I have no idea about any correlation between the LSAT and accreditation; you'd have to do some research into that. All the schools I applied to required both, but the range of schools I looked at was relatively narrow and I haven't given it a second thought since I applied 11 years ago. As for the LSAT itself, its difficulty correlates very similarly to the SAT. It's a standardized test like all the rest, just another tier above the SAT. Some people can work their butts off and do poorly, some people can just take the test without studying at all and do well. If you're good at standardized testing, you'll likely do well on the LSAT, and vice versa. Studying will, of course, increase the probability that you'll do well... but it's not a guarantee. One of my friends in college took classes every other day for a month and got an above-average, but not excellent score (which was bad for him, because he was aiming for Ivy Leagues) and I spent maybe a total of 2 hours preparing for the test and scored very well. Standardized testing was always good to me.

However, LSAT are not the end-all-be-all of law school. They're like SATs... useful for schools because they don't really have much else to rate people on. In general, law schools only care about two things: GPA and LSAT scores. As a rule of thumb, the better the school the more weight they give to GPA over LSAT. A good LSAT score can overcome a less than ideal GPA at many schools, but not at the top schools. In contrast, a good GPA can counteract a lower LSAT far more often. The GPA you listed in the OP (3.64) is very good and would go a long way towards counteracting a low LSAT score if you got one. If you're truly only interested in the degree and the bar license for resume purposes and don't intend on trying to nose your way into firm life, I doubt the LSAT would be any obstacle to you at all. With a GPA like that, you could easily get into a lower tier law school even with a poor LSAT score. Of course, if you want a big name on your wall, a good LSAT would help.

Due to my negligence of the backroom, I don't remember how old you are or what your occupation is, but for some reason I am thinking that you've got significant professional experience since college. If that is the case, I think that's another notch in your favor for law schools. The undergrad horde are a dime a dozen for law schools, while people with practical knowledge of the real world are relatively few and far between. Law schools like diversity of backgrounds to keep discussion interesting in the classroom, and people with years of post-undergrad work tend to get accepted more often than over otherwise identical undergrads. If you're in law enforcement now, I would expect that would be a significant advantage in your favor, since that would make you a wealth of knowledge for criminal law classes.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I am an insurance agent at the moment, so the only real legal knowledge I've got is related to Insurance law and its adjoining subjects. I'm waiting for a few LE agencies to give me the high sign, but I figured that since I've got no military or investigative experience I won't look very competitive after I get in and get my foot on the ladder. A JD and a history/poli-sci BA could help me look unique.

[TinCow]

I am an insurance agent at the moment, so the only real legal knowledge I've got is related to Insurance law and its adjoining subjects. I'm waiting for a few LE agencies to give me the high sign, but I figured that since I've got no military or investigative experience I won't look very competitive after I get in and get my foot on the ladder. A JD and a history/poli-sci BA could help me look unique.

I don't think you'll have too many problems getting into a perfectly decent school. If you're concerned about budget, a state school would be the best choice. You should look into scholarships as well. With a GPA like that some schools might toss a couple grand at your here and there, and that can make a difference. I'm not sure what the tuition is on SUNY schools, but Scienter got her JD on in-state tuition and she was paying a bit over $5k per semester. $30k for the degree isn't exactly cheap, especially since it doesn't include living expenses and it's not easy to work while obtaining it, but I'd be surprised if you could find a cheaper degree these days without a scholarship. I personally paid double that since I went to the same school as Scienter, but was out-of-state. Private schools would have been even more expensive.

So, if you can get a scholarship... great. If not, you need to be prepared for a major expenditure. When I was in law school, most people graduated with over $100k in debt. That did include undergrad debt, but a large portion was due to law school and the subsequent costs associated with passing the bar. If you have no debt at the moment, you'd get away cheaper, but it's still expensive. Many, many lawyers are forced to take jobs they hate because they need the money. I know several people who worked (or still work) grueling hours at firms they hate because they needed the mega-salary to live and pay off their debts. It's not unusual for lawyers to still have some debt remaining 10 to 15 years after graduating. If you're really only looking at this for resume padding and not because you want become a practicing lawyer, I would talk to some people in the law enforcement areas you're interested in. Make sure that the JD will make enough of a difference to your career to make the time and money you'll lose getting it worthwhile.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I am an insurance agent at the moment,

{@$+@#}$! Can't trust any of that sort...ooops, that's my career....


... so the only real legal knowledge I've got is related to Insurance law and its adjoining subjects. I'm waiting for a few LE agencies to give me the high sign, but I figured that since I've got no military or investigative experience I won't look very competitive after I get in and get my foot on the ladder. A JD and a history/poli-sci BA could help me look unique.

Can you read for the law in NY? If so, you can do the online JD for content yet work with your mentor to be allowed to stand for the bar. Might be less expensive.....