Unit depiction accuracy

[James Purefoy]

I remember a while back there was a discussion whether the Roman army actually used the colour red as obsessively as Hollywood would have us think. Turns out it's no more "original" than the red Santa Claus uses
:santa:

That is just an example, but it does beg the question, how much of a unit is based on actual proof and what on educated guesses?

I assume some factions must be harder to deal with in this regard than others. Hellenistic and Roman would be better off, and the Gauls too (provided the Romans were somewhat accurate when writing about them).

[Ichon]

If you are talking about just colors then I'd guess most clothes were more drab back then with dye usually being more expensive relatively though some cheap common colors were probably available an easy way to discriminate in the wealth of a person even more than the cut and style of clothes as nowdays but the colors they were wearing. Not just imperial purple was rare. Blue probably most common as several sources for it and yellow, green, red a bit less common though with all those colors more can be mixed The deeper the color the more expensive as the common basic colors were usually quite light so light blue might be common but a dark deep blue is less common and expensive.


Woad- blue
Madder- red
Weld- yellow
Lichen- green

[MisterFred]

Eb, along with a lot of games and mods, tends to show troops fighting with their cloaks on, which may or may not have happened much in real life (probably not unless it was really cold - a lot of men walking next to each other will warm things up very fast). This probably accounts for most of the 'ahistorical' color. I think one of EB's most impressive attributes is the number of pretty units dressed in drab colors. I'm particularly a fan of Numidian Nobles (lots of little detail), Carthaginian Citizen Cav (dunno why), and Lucanians.

[athanaric]

Eb, along with a lot of games and mods, tends to show troops fighting with their cloaks on, which may or may not have happened much in real life (probably not unless it was really cold - a lot of men walking next to each other will warm things up very fast). This probably accounts for most of the 'ahistorical' color. I think one of EB's most impressive attributes is the number of pretty units dressed in drab colors. I'm particularly a fan of Numidian Nobles (lots of little detail), Carthaginian Citizen Cav (dunno why), and Lucanians.IMO some Carthaginian units in EB I are almost too bright. I'm more of a fan of pikemen in blue cloaks. Speudogordoz and reformed Pezhetairoi look absolutely awesome. But even those without fancy cloaks or colours look great, reason being their colours are desaturated and usually very harmonious.

[MeinPanzer]

I remember a while back there was a discussion whether the Roman army actually used the colour red as obsessively as Hollywood would have us think. Turns out it's no more "original" than the red Santa Claus uses
:santa:

Red was just commonly held as a martial colour in Graeco-Roman civilization, which accounts for its popularity. Xenophon tells us that Spartans wore phoinikis-coloured clothing because it was “the least effeminate and most warlike" colour, and it also undoubtedly conferred some benefit in concealing blood. Phoinikis can refer to a range of colours including pink, red, and purple. Much of our colour evidence for soldiers from the Hellenistic period show that red was pretty much the default tunic colour for soldiers.


If you are talking about just colors then I'd guess most clothes were more drab back then with dye usually being more expensive relatively though some cheap common colors were probably available an easy way to discriminate in the wealth of a person even more than the cut and style of clothes as nowdays but the colors they were wearing. Not just imperial purple was rare. Blue probably most common as several sources for it and yellow, green, red a bit less common though with all those colors more can be mixed The deeper the color the more expensive as the common basic colors were usually quite light so light blue might be common but a dark deep blue is less common and expensive.

In the Hellenistic period, bright, solid clothing colours were favoured. As I stated before, pink and red were the most common colours. Blue was actually not really common, occurring about as often as whitish and brownish colours; black, grey, yellow, green, and orange were only rarely seen. It's ironic that people talk about EB being too colourful, because actually going by our evidence contemporary troops would have been much more colourful (and gaudy) in appearance.

[Tellos Athenaios]

To wit: http://www.projo.com/photos/20080528/lb0528_augustus_silo_05-28-08_LOA9MJ0.jpg

[Ichon]

In the Hellenistic period, bright, solid clothing colours were favoured. As I stated before, pink and red were the most common colours. Blue was actually not really common, occurring about as often as whitish and brownish colours; black, grey, yellow, green, and orange were only rarely seen. It's ironic that people talk about EB being too colourful, because actually going by our evidence contemporary troops would have been much more colourful (and gaudy) in appearance.

Not just Hellenes wore clothes and blue was pretty common elsewhere but I did say the brighter colors were indicating status and most of the soldiers were members of the elite and hence could afford colorful dyed clothing. Levees and poor troops more likely to be drab but some of the better troops were quite colorful.

[Cute Wolf]

To wit: http://www.projo.com/photos/20080528/lb0528_augustus_silo_05-28-08_LOA9MJ0.jpg

oh! so that's the new preview of Roman General!

[jazstl]

I would think you haven't played EB1!

Cute Wolf:Yeah the roman general with a trait weak bodyguard...

[Cute Wolf]

I would think you haven't played EB1!

be clear then, it was ambigous, you refer to me or the original poster....
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/picture.php?pictureid=41982&albumid=3803&dl=1279719314&thumb=1

~ Cute Wolf (confused...)

[jazstl]

I wasn't refearing to you Cute Wolf, I know you spent a whole lot of days playing EB, writting esseys aboute cavalry use...and steepe factions...and...and more...

I woud like to tell Jame P. that if you don't make a army of only elites, the EB should look as plain as sahara desert with an oasis in the form of your general bodyguards...

~Mayself

[athanaric]

Well, elite in EB are usually colourful. Hypaspistai, PM, and Spartan Hoplites for example all wear bright red colours.

[paullus]

reds, in various shades, from pink up to scarlet and on to purple, were quite common, though by no means universal. if anything, EB may be too drab, as MP said. But I have to look at the units, and we're assuming tunics and such fade a bit over time. You'll see very rich dyes on very rich units still, and those richer units will also be more likely to wear exclusively or at least predominately reddish hued clothes.

[Mediolanicus]

So this all means that most heavy infantry will be in a red(dish) colour, except - ironically - Roman units...
Or at least Marians. Polybians may be considered rich enough for fancy dyes, since they also had to buy their equipment.

[Cyclops]

I guess the devs are using a lot of the fanatastic material available about Iron age culture fabrics. The quickest of goolges turns up tons of stuff, like a lovely little snippet from Austria (in English)

http://dressid.nhm-wien.ac.at/textile_e.html

The samples listed are mostly pre-Roman (ie pre EB) but the symposium name is very promising. Most of the hues seem to be quite earthy: yellow, brown grey etc. and one of the patterns is positively tartan-esque (IIRC there was some very tartan looking fabric from central asia in recent finds too). So while the run-of-the-mill non-noble units maybe not be technicolour they'll still have a range of colours and patterns to make them distinguishable.

The idea that non-clone units in EB2 might be harder to distinguish than the fairly recognisable ones in EB has been occupying my thoughts a little. A first I was like "hmm, they're all going to look the same, multi-coloured searman, multi-coloured horsemen, only the most basic distinctions will be apparent eg he has a pike or he is on an elephant". Now I'm thinking thats good, although no doubt noble units will sport the reds and purples and blues and gold trimming etc.

So I guess it'll be more like "hmm theres some cav with some flashes of gold, maybe they're elites, and pike, but how good are they?" rather than "oh I see the instantly recognisable prodromoi and Thessalians...plus two klerouchoi and a deuteroi phalangitai".

Is it fair to say only truly iconic units like argyraspidae and kataphraktoi should be known at a glance? i guess i can switch off banners and not hover over units to keep myself in the dark for that "authentic" FOW feel.

[Moros]

I think you overestimate that effect. While perhaps due to the more types of skins and models within a unit, it will lose this one typical representation. I could imagine that the units might be slower to be recognised and known by sight, but I don't think it's that bad. Except for the colours you can also instantly deduct the unit's power from their equipment. The fancier and heavy, well the richer (and hence usually the more elite) and the heavier the unit. From the weapons and armour you can deduct quite a lot of their stats.

Check our previews if you're interested in how clothing will look like. We've released Celtic, Getic, African, Roman and hellenic slodiers (or more) so these can give you an idea.

Also thanks for getting the thread back on track Cyclops.

[Cambyses]

Well, colours would fade probably quite rapidly in campaign conditions and even in "normal" conditions as well depending on the quality of the original dye and the age of the item etc. I would expect to see quite considerable variatian of "red" on for example Spartan cloaks and even more so for Roman legionary tunics and other everyday items that you might even wash occassionally. So, I would hope that EB2 will be full of different colours and styles in the same unit.

[seienchin]

100% Agree. cloth beeing worn for 2 weeks under any weather conditions in the field do not have bright colours anymore^^.

[Cyclops]

I think you overestimate that effect. While perhaps due to the more types of skins and models within a unit, it will lose this one typical representation. I could imagine that the units might be slower to be recognised and known by sight, but I don't think it's that bad. Except for the colours you can also instantly deduct the unit's power from their equipment. The fancier and heavy, well the richer (and hence usually the more elite) and the heavier the unit. From the weapons and armour you can deduct quite a lot of their stats.....

Yeah thats what I'm hoping for.

The first time I played as Carthage I'd look at my forces drawn up and think "geez what a lot of white tunics". I pretty soon came to enjoy the effect, and the way the sacred band units stood out (just a bit of blue made all the difference). There's a lot of homespun colours on the early Romani too.

I play with general cam on so I'm relying on a limited POV, so unit distinction matters and I enjoy the "realism" of dust and obscured LOS and other FOW effects.

I'm hoping dust clouds are going to make it hard to distinguish enemy unti identity, numbers etc.

I wonder if there's some "grime effect" like the blood spatter so units that ford a river or get very dusty go a dirty brown colour. That'd throw a spanner in the works of many a human general "hmm there's a dirty horde of stragglers to the flank, no real threat...wait their swords have gold-adorned hilts and they aren't wearing any pants!"

[Tuuvi]

I guess the devs are using a lot of the fanatastic material available about Iron age culture fabrics. The quickest of goolges turns up tons of stuff, like a lovely little snippet from Austria (in English)

http://dressid.nhm-wien.ac.at/textile_e.html

The samples listed are mostly pre-Roman (ie pre EB) but the symposium name is very promising. Most of the hues seem to be quite earthy: yellow, brown grey etc. and one of the patterns is positively tartan-esque (IIRC there was some very tartan looking fabric from central asia in recent finds too). So while the run-of-the-mill non-noble units maybe not be technicolour they'll still have a range of colours and patterns to make them distinguishable.
Those cloth samples are amazing, some of them look modern if you don't know what you're looking at. That's one of the things I really like about archaeology and history, I'm always surprised at how advanced ancient or even prehistoric peoples really were.

[jirisys]

be clear then, it was ambigous, you refer to me or the original poster....
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/picture.php?pictureid=41982&albumid=3803&dl=1279719314&thumb=1

~ Cute Wolf (confused...)

Why does everyone copy me! :sad::cry:

Anyway...
I seem to like the KH troop colors, it's mostly white, but i see that Epeiros' clothes are dark... green? and well... maks are black

Were you going for RTW all troops of a faction dress in only a color, or is there any historical information about this (i'm 100% sure, but i needed to have a argument so that it wouldn't be spamming:clown:)

~Jirisys (You're actually copying fluvi:clown::clown:)