View Full Version : Rape by deception
This is an interesting case (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jurists-say-arab-s-rape-conviction-sets-dangerous-precedent-1.303109) coming out of Israel: Man claims to be Jewish single, sleeps with Jewish woman. Turns out he's an Israeli Arab. Court convicts him of rape by deception.
Similar cases: Man says he's a neurosurgeon, but he ain't. Convicted of fraud. Man claims he's with the housing board and can get a better apartment for woman. He isn't and he can't. Convicted of rape. Details:
In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him.
High Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein said a conviction of rape should be imposed any time a "person does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman, and as a result of misrepresentation she has sexual relations with him."
Rubinstein said the question was also whether an ordinary person would expect such a woman to have sex with a man without the false identity he created.
In the past, men who misrepresented themselves in this way were convicted of fraud.
One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud.
I find this whole notion of "rape by deception" very strange. Disturbing, actually. But I'd like to hear Orgah opinions before I try to formulate why I find it so repugnant.
I actually posted this story in another forum a few days ago. I would say I'm more than merely "disturbed"; I'm outright appalled.
Don't get me wrong: I think a man lying in the furtherance of getting laid is reprehensible at best. But while I do think it's morally & ethically wrong, I don't think it should necessarily be illegal. IMO, this is one of those things that are best punished via social sanction; the courts have no business getting involved.
Tellos Athenaios
07-24-2010, 18:56
Disturbing is the right word for it.
To all intents and purposes the women choose to have sex with these men, there was nothing that forced them to do that. They choose to do so because of the identity of these men, and the identity happens to be fake; but that does not make this rape, it is something else (fraud).
I find this whole notion of "rape by deception" very strange. Disturbing, actually. But I'd like to hear Orgah opinions before I try to formulate why I find it so repugnant.
It is mainly because it is an illicit act to have sex with some one for personal game, as it is basically a form of bribery. As the money/act of sex, is an attempt to illicitly have access to something circumventing the typical rule for society.
Typically, if you try to pay for an illicit service, if you lost your money, it is "oh well, you lost out, it is what you get for trying to cheat".
However, the whole act isn't rape. The woman was not forced into the situation, as in examples of Blackmail or by violence. It is akin to meeting some one at a bar, they say they are a neurosurgeon, and they goes "nice, a professional", then sleeps with him, find out he isn't. It wasn't a rape.
Ultimately it is 'meh'
Skullheadhq
07-24-2010, 19:14
Why did she have sex with him in the first place?
Because she liked him. Because she was attracted to him. Because she liked his character. Race doesn't magically change this fact, nor does profession. This is not love, this is more of selective breeding. Jews should know better with this racism and where this could lead to, but apparantly it's much more comfortable on the other side of the racism-stick.
This is not the only thing Israel has done in the race-field, not too long ago they outlawed interracial (Jew-Arab) marriage on the argument that Israel should remain a Jewish state. Blut und Bodem anyone?
Rape is force, there was no force involved so there was no rape, the only thing he could be convicted of is lying, and AFAIK lying is not a crime.
I'd like to know what Frag thinks about this, considering that he's pro-Israel.
rory_20_uk
07-24-2010, 21:27
Man meets woman in a bar. They go and have intercourse.
Turns out she's got a kid, dyed her hair and was wearing a Wonderbra.
I guess he was raped too..? Oh, but for some reason it never is quite the same the other way around.
~:smoking:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
07-24-2010, 22:38
It is mainly because it is an illicit act to have sex with some one for personal game, as it is basically a form of bribery. As the money/act of sex, is an attempt to illicitly have access to something circumventing the typical rule for society.
Typically, if you try to pay for an illicit service, if you lost your money, it is "oh well, you lost out, it is what you get for trying to cheat".
However, the whole act isn't rape. The woman was not forced into the situation, as in examples of Blackmail or by violence. It is akin to meeting some one at a bar, they say they are a neurosurgeon, and they goes "nice, a professional", then sleeps with him, find out he isn't. It wasn't a rape.
Ultimately it is 'meh'
No it is in no way "meh"! Please see below for why:
This is an interesting case (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jurists-say-arab-s-rape-conviction-sets-dangerous-precedent-1.303109) coming out of Israel: Man claims to be Jewish single, sleeps with Jewish woman. Turns out he's an Israeli Arab. Court convicts him of rape by deception.
Similar cases: Man says he's a neurosurgeon, but he ain't. Convicted of fraud. Man claims he's with the housing board and can get a better apartment for woman. He isn't and he can't. Convicted of rape. Details:
In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him.
High Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein said a conviction of rape should be imposed any time a "person does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman, and as a result of misrepresentation she has sexual relations with him."
Rubinstein said the question was also whether an ordinary person would expect such a woman to have sex with a man without the false identity he created.
In the past, men who misrepresented themselves in this way were convicted of fraud.
One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud.
I find this whole notion of "rape by deception" very strange. Disturbing, actually. But I'd like to hear Orgah opinions before I try to formulate why I find it so repugnant.
There are two deeply disturbing facts about this case:
1. Both the "rape by deception" and "fraud" cases assume something about a woman's consent to sexual congress, namely that it is a commodity which is always paid for. Look at the words of the judge; his judgement clearly indicates that the man is being convicted for being un able to deliver his end of the bargain, and therfore enshrines is law the concept that "rape" is a form of theft, that it is sex without "paying". From this it naturally follows that:
1a: Legal sexual intercourse involves the man paying the woman an agreed amount in goods/services/prestige.
1b: If a man does not pay it is always "rape" even without force.
1c: Men always pay women for sex.
1d: All women are whores.
I said there were two things, "2", is that this is not a Torric (unsure of adjective here) concept, and what the judge actually seems to be applying here is the a medieval Christian principle of "rapax", where rape is just theft. the Torah would seem to be quite clear on the subject, in that a woman cannot bring a rape case after the fact against a man if they had sex in a populated area because, so the Leviticus says, she should have screamed bloody murder at the time.
So, basically, Israel has devolved to the worst form of western Mysogony without even any form of Scriptural restraint, justification, or excuse.
Tellos Athenaios
07-24-2010, 22:56
@PVC: except that the “fraud” case has a different component to it. Namely that of abusing the good faith of others. Also fraud is not limited to a more elaborate form of theft, either: and false identities fall under this broader definition of fraud.
Consequentially I think that ruling should be seen simply as affirming that the fake neurosurgeon has abused the good faith of the plaintiff (the woman, presumably) and therefore should be punished accordingly. The verdict is a matter of case law, so it takes the closest well-defined legal concept as model on which to build; which in this case was deemed (by the court) to be fraud.
Hosakawa Tito
07-24-2010, 23:09
If they're jumping into the sack before they actually really know who he is, hoping for some kind of "gain"... caveat emptor baby.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
07-25-2010, 01:13
@PVC: except that the “fraud” case has a different component to it. Namely that of abusing the good faith of others. Also fraud is not limited to a more elaborate form of theft, either: and false identities fall under this broader definition of fraud.
Consequentially I think that ruling should be seen simply as affirming that the fake neurosurgeon has abused the good faith of the plaintiff (the woman, presumably) and therefore should be punished accordingly. The verdict is a matter of case law, so it takes the closest well-defined legal concept as model on which to build; which in this case was deemed (by the court) to be fraud.
You're missing the point though; that Fraud requires one to be defrauded of something. Fraud is a form of theft, but it uses a trick rather than a stick to take that thing from you. That means that the woman's consent to sexual congress can be "stolen", ergo it is a commodity which can be traded.
You're also wrong in that Fruad is not the closest model, there is a direct law which is applicable here, perjury, the bearing of false witness. That is a criminal offense for which he can be commissioned, and for which the "victim" can be compensated without making her consent part of a goods exchange.
Perjury is really badly ignored in the West (and hence in Israel, it would seem). It's applicable in all sorts of cases, including marital infidelity, for which it is never applied.
It is mainly because it is an illicit act to have sex with some one for personal game, as it is basically a form of bribery. As the money/act of sex, is an attempt to illicitly have access to something circumventing the typical rule for society.
Typically, if you try to pay for an illicit service, if you lost your money, it is "oh well, you lost out, it is what you get for trying to cheat".
However, the whole act isn't rape. The woman was not forced into the situation, as in examples of Blackmail or by violence. It is akin to meeting some one at a bar, they say they are a neurosurgeon, and they goes "nice, a professional", then sleeps with him, find out he isn't. It wasn't a rape.
Ultimately it is 'meh'
Absolutely agree.
It sounds like the women just do it to get some advantage over others/bragging rights, that's not rape, that is the eomen making an uninformed decision (informed would be them checking the guy out first, for example by getting to know him better).
Most people try to make themselves look good or better for the first few dates, if you're poor but wearing an armani suit(that you saved money for) and a woman has sex with you because you look rich, is that also rape by deception?
This is a very stupid law IMO.
HoreTore
07-25-2010, 09:40
WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!?!?
I'm no longer allowed to brag a little to impress the ladies?? Come on, who doesn't add an extra inch when they're drunk?!?
And can we call rape on push-up bras too??
Skullheadhq
07-25-2010, 09:58
And can we call rape on push-up bras too??
Yes, in Israel you can, unless they have separated laws for men and women, which wouldn't suprise me at all.
OT: Was there any event where a man was raped by a woman and he reported it to the police? Or does rape only apply to men?
WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!?!?
I'm no longer allowed to brag a little to impress the ladies?? Come on, who doesn't add an extra inch when they're drunk?!?
And can we call rape on push-up bras too??
What to do with this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYpwAtnywTk
Tellos Athenaios
07-25-2010, 11:41
You're missing the point though; that Fraud requires one to be defrauded of something. Fraud is a form of theft, but it uses a trick rather than a stick to take that thing from you. That means that the woman's consent to sexual congress can be "stolen", ergo it is a commodity which can be traded.
As far as I am aware fraud in its broadest sense is the deception to gain something or damage another, but it does not need to involve “stealing from another” as such. (For instance the objective of fraud could be to bring another person into disrepute; or the objective of fraud could be to bolster credentials.)
You're also wrong in that Fruad is not the closest model, there is a direct law which is applicable here, perjury, the bearing of false witness. That is a criminal offense for which he can be commissioned, and for which the "victim" can be compensated without making her consent part of a goods exchange.
Perjury is really badly ignored in the West (and hence in Israel, it would seem). It's applicable in all sorts of cases, including marital infidelity, for which it is never applied.
No it isn't. Perjury is highly specific to (sworn) oaths, and similar legal obligations. This requires of course two things: (a) that the oath is (legally) binding, (b) that an oath was made. (A) Is problematic because in many countries quite a few forms of spoken agreements have no legal bearing, especially not without a witness. (B) Did the fake neurosurgeon actually *swear* he was a neurosurgeon or did he merely chat up the women by *telling* he was a neurosurgeon. Quite a difference, and in the latter case you'll find perjury extremely hard to prove, regardless of (A).
With the increased literacy, perjury is simply displaced by breach of contract.
HoreTore
07-25-2010, 13:10
OT: Was there any event where a man was raped by a woman and he reported it to the police? Or does rape only apply to men?
Happens from time to time, but due to the physical differences(a penis needs to be aroused to function, while it's quite possible to have sex with an unconcious woman) it doesn't happen very often.
Skullheadhq
07-25-2010, 13:23
a penis needs to be aroused to function
I am happy you have such a great penis-control and can only get an erection on command, some people don't sadly. But do you have a link to a newspaper site mentioning this kind of rape, or is this not interesting enough for the media?
Simply put: that's retarded. That's an ethical issue, not a legal issue for starters. And secondly, it should be up to the woman to discern for herself whether, yes this guy's legit or no this guy is a lier who is trying to get in my pants. I mean when did Israel become a "leftie multi-culturalist nanny-state"?
rory_20_uk
07-25-2010, 13:39
Happens from time to time, but due to the physical differences(a penis needs to be aroused to function, while it's quite possible to have sex with an unconcious woman) it doesn't happen very often.
Getting a penis erect is merely a mechanical feedback and does not require arousal.
~:smoking:
HoreTore
07-25-2010, 14:38
I am happy you have such a great penis-control and can only get an erection on command, some people don't sadly. But do you have a link to a newspaper site mentioning this kind of rape, or is this not interesting enough for the media?
Getting a penis erect is merely a mechanical feedback and does not require arousal.
On the penis thingy; I meant of course that the penis needs to be erect, which limits the possibility of a rape somewhat.
As for sources, no I don't have any on hand, but it's mentioned in the paper from time to time. One case I remember was when a woman performed oral sex on a sleeping man. She was convicted as well.
But on a related note, Aftenposten had a 5-page article on women who beat their men a week ago.
Skullheadhq
07-25-2010, 15:05
As for sources, no I don't have any on hand, but it's mentioned in the paper from time to time. One case I remember was when a woman performed oral sex on a sleeping man. She was convicted as well.
She can do it to me, I won't complain ;)
Cute Wolf
07-25-2010, 15:24
oh stupid things happened everywhere in the world.... if Israel justice system is good, that clever men should go unpunished, as my friend did :grin:....
HoreTore
07-25-2010, 15:37
She can do it to me, I won't complain ;)
When you grow up, you might ~;)
Skullheadhq
07-25-2010, 15:49
oh stupid things happened everywhere in the world.... if Israel justice system is good, that clever men should go unpunished, as my friend does :grin:....
Israel is an Apartheid state, it's that if you're a jew, you go unpunished. Just like South-Africa from '48-'94, but this time some see the Jews as victims, and Apartheid as necessary. But your friend would have been thrown in jail, unless he's a jew that is.
Cute Wolf
07-25-2010, 15:59
Israel is an Apartheid state, it's that if you're a jew, you go unpunished. Just like South-Africa from '48-'94, but this time some see the Jews as victims, and Apartheid as necessary. But your friend would have been thrown in jail, unless he's a jew that is.
yeah, then, if he was really a clever man, the only choice for him is flee to Gaza strip and joining Hamas.... :clown:
HoreTore
07-25-2010, 16:01
yeah, then, if he was really a clever man, the only choice for him is flee to Gaza strip and joining Hamas.... :clown:
Then he could form an Israeli Bohemian Refugee Orchestra!
Skullheadhq
07-25-2010, 16:01
yeah, then, if he was really a clever man, the only choice for him is flee to Gaza strip and joining Hamas.... :clown:
Oh you evul terrurist! With this kind of words you'll lure the war on terror to Indonesia.
PS: Do you (still) have oil in Indonesia? This is a must, or the bait won't work. With a bit of luck they'll only free the **** out of Atjeh :clown:
Cute Wolf
07-25-2010, 16:30
Oh you evul terrurist! With this kind of words you'll lure the war on terror to Indonesia.
PS: Do you (still) have oil in Indonesia? This is a must, or the bait won't work. With a bit of luck they'll only free the **** out of Atjeh :clown:
I don't meant I support hamas, you allready know that I was the opposite one :grin: ... I actually meant that if he want to stay out of multiple years in jail just because banging some lady... he should do something to run away.... umm... in the other hands, we also didn't have any diplomatic relations to Israel, so he could always considering flee to Indonesia or Malaysia
ADD : oh yeah, we still have oils, but that doesn't meant you could take it... and you know better about Atjeh problems... they done that since medieval times! wait for the next preview of Sultanate of Atjeh factions, and you will see they allready have "half suicide" units far before middle eastern one do this!!!
tibilicus
07-25-2010, 22:46
Some of you might be interested in reading what the Arab involved has to say.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/saber-kushour-rape-deception-charge
Cute Wolf
07-25-2010, 22:55
Some of you might be interested in reading what the Arab involved has to say.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/saber-kushour-rape-deception-charge
basically one thing could be said, sexual relations outside marriage are highly potent to gave some problems later...
Simply put: that's retarded. That's an ethical issue, not a legal issue for starters. And secondly, it should be up to the woman to discern for herself whether, yes this guy's legit or no this guy is a lier who is trying to get in my pants. I mean when did Israel become a "leftie multi-culturalist nanny-state"?
But Israel is a rightest, mono-culturalist... oh, I see what you did there.
Male rape cannot happen, it is not they can slip him a pill or anything for arousal.
But more seriously, if a guy says 'no' and the female is forceful and continues (etc). Even if he later ends up having sex with her because of the whole arousal, etc, if he made it absolutely clear he didn't want sex with her and made serious attempts to stop her, then she is punishable.
I believe there is even a film about this too.
Male rape cannot happen, it is not they can slip him a pill or anything for arousal
Sorry if I seem dense but is this a joke or are you being serious?
Sorry if I seem dense but is this a joke or are you being serious?
The clue was in the next line when I said "But more seriously...". :wink:
Yes, there is a pill named 'viagra' which is pretty common, to cause erections.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
07-26-2010, 00:43
Male rape cannot happen, it is not they can slip him a pill or anything for arousal.
But more seriously, if a guy says 'no' and the female is forceful and continues (etc). Even if he later ends up having sex with her because of the whole arousal, etc, if he made it absolutely clear he didn't want sex with her and made serious attempts to stop her, then she is punishable.
I believe there is even a film about this too.
You can tie him up and whip him (this actually happened, to a priest no less).
You are also assuming that raping a man involves that man penetrating the woman raping him.
Not so.
OT: Was there any event where a man was raped by a woman and he reported it to the police? Or does rape only apply to men?
Most documented cases of female-male rape involve a female engaging a minor in intercourse, which constitutes as statutory rape; I'm sure you all remember the case in America a few years back about a young female teacher who had sex with one of her fourteen year old students (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_LaFave)... I think the child's parents found out through an instant messaging service and reported it to the police themselves, though.
I would guess that any instant where a non-statutory female-male rape occured would probably have less steep repercussions on the female perpetrator than if she had been a male... double standards, unfortunately; women just aren't seen as sex offenders for the most part.
But more seriously, if a guy says 'no' and the female is forceful and continues (etc). Even if he later ends up having sex with her because of the whole arousal, etc, if he made it absolutely clear he didn't want sex with her and made serious attempts to stop her, then she is punishable.
This reminds me of a classic episode of Peep Show. :3
This reminds me of a classic episode of Peep Show. :3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv-Vu7UDKdM&has_verified=1
Male Rape is highly under-reported as common attitude is that people see it as a joke. Or even worse, that it is a gay crime. Aka, a woman cannot rape a man.
There is also the image that women are fragile weak creatures in society, when they really are not,
Crazed Rabbit
07-26-2010, 02:26
Most documented cases of female-male rape involve a female engaging a minor in intercourse, which constitutes as statutory rape; I'm sure you all remember the case in America a few years back about a young female teacher who had sex with one of her fourteen year old students (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_LaFave)... I think the child's parents found out through an instant messaging service and reported it to the police themselves, though.
As in all things, Washington State leads the world. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Kay_Letourneau)
Mary Kay Letourneau (age 35) got pregnant and had a child from a 13 year old student, was caught, jailed briefly, released, caught a year later with the same student, got pregnant again and had another child, jailed for several years, was released, and then married said student after he turned 21.
EDIT: With more info on the actual crime, from Louis' post #53, this punishment is not a fraction of what he deserves. Bring on Hayley Stark.
As to the topic - it's an appalling verdict that strikes me as racist.
CR
Some of you might be interested in reading what the Arab involved has to say.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/saber-kushour-rape-deception-charge
"I am paying the price for a mistake that she made,"
Sums it up quite nicely. He get's a bogus charge because she's angry that she disregarded her principles.
Meneldil
07-26-2010, 08:39
That's about as stupid as it can get. The judge is obviously a racist scumbag.
Skullheadhq
07-26-2010, 09:07
"a Jewish woman who claimed she would not have had sex with him had she known he was an Arab."
Imagine if this happened in the civilized world...
" The message from the judge, he says, was that "because you are an Arab and you didn't make that clear, we are going to punish you".
Oh, but I've the solution, what if arabs would just wear an obligatory yellow star or a red crescent moon on his shirt and coat, that way it would be easier to recognise and deport if necessary...
"The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price – the sanctity of their bodies and souls."
If that's a criminal, I'm a criminal. I'M SPARTACUS!
He was interrogated for five to six hours, without a lawyer.
Israel is the last hub of freedom in the middle-east! Really, you can trust us Jews...
He says that in 16 years of teaching at a university where 20-25% of the student population is Arab, he has "never even heard of a mixed relationship". Discrimination against Arabs is, he says, evident at all levels.
Actually I was reminded of Olga the hair stylist (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/columns/1292/article/hair-stylist-keeps-armed-robber-as-sex-slave/376242.html). :sweatdrop:
And after reading the article tibilicus linked I think even more that this is stupid and disgusting.
The perception of the woman, or what she claims to have perceived, cannot be the sole basis of a conviction for rape just because she made a decision based on her perception that she apparently regretted later.
rory_20_uk
07-26-2010, 11:58
Not to mention going merely on superficial attributes which women lambaste men for doing...
~:smoking:
Rhyfelwyr
07-26-2010, 12:40
I would have thought the more conservative people in Israel, that tend to be more religious and anti-Arab, would not take kindly to a woman having extra-marital relationships.
Man lies to get into woman's pants. Over here, we call this: "Saturday night".
Are Israeli Arabs generally circumcised? :inquisitive:
Skullheadhq
07-26-2010, 17:43
Are Israeli Arabs generally circumcised? :inquisitive:
Wait...She reported the incident right after it happened...so...while she was having sex she knew he was an Arab because else she couldn't have reported it...and yet she kept going?
So, the only thing I can conclude is that she knew it, kept going and then felt remorse so she thought she should "make it right" (possibly religious/social reasons) and she reported him.
Ser Clegane
07-26-2010, 19:08
Actually circumcision seems to be common among Arabs as well, so perhaps you should not jump to conclusions just because somebody asks a question...
Actually circumcision seems to be common among Arabs as well, so perhaps you should not jump to conclusions just because somebody asks a question...
Male circumcision is widely practiced within Arab communities. My father wanted me to get circumsised as well (my mother was against it, hah!) but my meningitis got in the way of that party.
HoreTore
07-28-2010, 15:01
It's been a while since we had a proper circumcision-debate....
It's been a while since we had a proper circumcision-debate....
Unfortunately, they eventually just get locked...
I brought it up as a legitimate question, I don't know the cultural standard for Israeli Arabs and their male offspring's junk. I would think the vast majority of Israeli Jews would be cut, if she had sex with him and he was intact then she probably knew and just had buyer's remorse afterward.
Unfortunately, they eventually just get locked...
I'd rather say that all debate is...
*puts on sunglasses*
cut off.
Cute Wolf
07-28-2010, 15:52
uhh, both proper muslims and jews didn't tolerate sex outside marriage, and I must said, that women is allready suffered much social stigma in the coservative class.... now, it would be a joke if that women took off her Israeli citizenship and heading to US or western europe, where she could :daisy: with all she want....
ADD:
and uhh about the russian robbery-rape issue... I wonder if "Viktor" is actually a man who faithfully believe in abstience and no sex before marriage... that could him as lot as how a virgin was raped...
Louis VI the Fat
09-08-2010, 20:03
Well this case took a surprising turn...
The 'rape by deception'-charge was nothing but a plea bargain, just so this poor woman would not have to face this brutally violent sexual predator in court again.
Fresh details have emerged in the case of a Palestinian man an Israeli court convicted of "rape by deception" after he was accused of posing as a Jewish man in order to have sex with a Jewish-Israeli woman.
The case caused international outrage when it was first reported, in July, but now an Israeli newspaper has reported that the conviction was the result of a plea bargain over a violent rape.
Ha'ir, a Tel Aviv weekly and part of the newspaper group that owns Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/), published extracts from the victim's unsealed testimony. It also reported that the prosecution had agreed to the reduced charge of "rape by deception" because of the victim's confused account and concern at facing another court appearance.
Saber Kushour, from East Jerusalem, said he had had consexual sex with the woman, who cannot be named for legal reasons, within minutes of meeting her on a West Jerusalem street.
He was sentenced to 18 months in prison after the Jerusalem district court ruled he was guilty of rape by deception. One of the judges said that, although the sex had been consensual, the woman involved "would not have consented if she had not believed Kushour was Jewish" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/21/arab-guilty-rape-consensual-sex-jew).
It was reported at the time that Kashur had been charged with rape and indecent assault but that those charges were reduced after a plea bargain arrangement.
This week, Ha'ir reported that, according to her testimony, the woman had met Kashur on a street in West Jerusalem and chatted with him for a few minutes before he invited her into a nearby building, claiming it was his workplace. Asked why she had agreed, she reportedly told the court: "I looked for someone to put my trust in."
Once inside the building, the woman says she was raped and then left naked and bleeding. Part of her testimony reads: "He said that if I don't stay silent and I don't resist, then it would like end faster and it wouldn't be like ... he wouldn't use force. I still resisted him, and it was forced."
The newspaper describes a women in her late 20s who had been abused by her father from an early age and forced by him to become a sex worker. She was living at a women's shelter when the incident occurred, and was subsequently taken to a psychiatric hospital with a section for female victims of sexual crimes.
The prosecution, it is claimed, agreed to the plea bargain that reduced the charge to rape by deception in order to prevent a long cross-examination of a traumatised victim. Ha'ir also reports that the woman had filed 14 previous complaints, mostly for sexual offences, some of which did not result in convictions owing to lack of evidence or because of questions around the veracity of the complaint. The prosecution was concerned that Kashur's legal team would question the women over all these cases in court.
Describing the reduced charge, deputy prosecutor Danny Wittman told Ha'ir: "Plea bargains never match the original narrative of the plaintiff, because the two sides have to bridge the gap between them and reach an agreement. In this case, we gave up on the 'forcible' element and agreed to a rewriting of the indictment, according to which the defendant had sex with the woman with her consent ... obtained with deception."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/08/rape-by-deception-plea-israel
18 months in jail? This dangerous predator ought to be shot like a dog.
tibilicus
09-08-2010, 20:08
I never believed his cover story in the first place. Honest..
So the whole thing is a sad and sadly common plea-bargain for a violent rapist. It's good to know that "rape by deception" is not a new and growing class of crime, however.
rory_20_uk
09-08-2010, 21:46
Ah, good old Trial by Media.
~:smoking:
InsaneApache
09-08-2010, 21:59
18 months in jail? This dangerous predator ought to be shot like a dog.
What have you got against dogs? :inquisitive:
Stanley knives and pliers spring to my mind. Much kinder on the dogs IMO.
Crazed Rabbit
09-09-2010, 02:34
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0424136/
Devastatin Dave
09-09-2010, 20:46
Sluts....
I believe only the "deception" part is true, rape should be something else.
By the way both Arabs and Israelis (Moslem and Jews) are mostly circumcised.
At least it helps identifying victims or spies in battles :rolleyes:
rory_20_uk
01-20-2016, 11:31
Is any deception "rape" now?
Saying you love someone?
Saying you'll marry them?
Saying you're single?
Saying you're rich?
When you're lying?
It appears that rape is coming to include "in retrospect, if I knew then what I knew / feel now I would not have given consent - therefore I didn't therefore it is raaaaaape!!!!!"
As long as we just remember that as soon as a victim cries rape we understand nothing they have done in any way contributed to the outcome.
~:smoking:
Montmorency
01-21-2016, 00:25
At any rate this would simply fall under the category of "sexual fraud". It usually involves reproductive fraud or contraceptive sabotage, as well as failure to disclose certain illnesses or diagnoses, but in the necro case it seems like a more straightforward matter of identity fraud.
JamesGoblin
02-06-2016, 12:45
Maybe he was raping in self defence? I'd pick that line of action if I was his lawyer.
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