The Empire Strikes Back! ...against their former colonial overlords

[HoreTore]

It happened with the US after WW2, now it's happening again.

A PM, half a government and around 80 people from Britains business elite has landed in India, the biggest official delegation since Harold Macmillan was the first British PM in an independent India. Back then, India needed Britains help to create its state. Now the tables are turned, India no longer has any real need for Britain, while Britain desperatly needs India to help them out of recession. At the same time, nationalism is on the rise back in Britain, fuelled by hate against scary brown people....including Indians.

I, for one, find all this highly amusing. At least Cameron understands that Britains new role in the world is to bow down and lick boot. When will the rest of the population follow him?

[Furunculus]

We want business - who knew.....?

What hate against scary brown people?

[tibilicus]

It's no different from every other European nation and the US wooing China and the other rising Asian economies. The only difference is that India was once governed by the British. For quite a few years now actually, India has been the first choice business partner of many British companies.

Also nationalism isn't on the rise. There's a very vocal minority and in general British society is more tolerable than its ever been. Your comment about licking boot is also unfounded as you suggest that relationship between Britain and India has always been one of ambivalence and disrespect. This hasn't really ever been the case post India independence and wasn't really the case pre-independence. India and the Asian sub-continent effectively served as the British Empires military machine for almost a century and after the Great Mutiny the people of India (at least by 19th and early 20th century European standards) were treated with a level of tolerance and even respect. How do you think an administration numbering in the thousands managed to govern a domain of about 250 million people? It wasn't through direct subjugation and suppression as you suggest.

Point being Britain wants to expand its business opportunities and India is one such business opportunity. Just before I end this, back to the suggested racism in the UK towards Indians, not the case. Many people actually welcome Indians as a migrant group due to the fact they have a reputation for carrying a strong work ethic and accepting views of the British culture.

[Furunculus]

Just before I end this, back to the suggested racism in the UK towards Indians, not the case. Many people actually welcome Indians as a migrant group due to the fact they have a reputation for carrying a strong work ethic and accepting views of the British culture.

^ word ^

as contributors to british society in skills and taxes crime and benefits they are pretty much unparalleled as an immigrant group per-capita.

[InsaneApache]

We're that racist we have chicken tikka masala as our national dish.

[Skullheadhq]

We're that racist we have chicken tikka masala as our national dish.

It says more about the fact that English can't cook than that you're a tolerant nation

:laugh4:

[al Roumi]

^ word ^

as contributors to british society in skills and taxes crime and benefits they are pretty much unparalleled as an immigrant group per-capita.

Indeed. Now if HoreTore has said "Muslims" and not Indians, he might have been right to say the UK public was hostile to them, as it seems there is growing intolerance towards them. But that's another topic.

By the way, I'm not aware of any Dutch cuisine of note. Does it perchance involve pickled-cabage? That would be original.

[rvg]

I, for one, find all this highly amusing. At least Cameron understands that Britains new role in the world is to bow down and lick boot. When will the rest of the population follow him?

Why such hostility towards the Brits? You do realize that on the global scene Britain is far more important and far more respected than Norway has ever been. Before belittling Brits, look at yourself instead.

[al Roumi]

Why such hostility towards the Brits? You do realize that on the global scene Britain is far more important and far more respected than Norway has ever been. Before belittling Brits, look at yourself instead.

Ouch! There's no need to say that so bluntly! Can't you see from his post that he already hqs a massive chip on his shoulder?

[Tellos Athenaios]

By the way, I'm not aware of any Dutch cuisine of note. Does it perchance involve pickled-cabage? That would be original.

No it wouldn't be original (Acar, much?). Nor is it actually part of Dutch cuisine. Dutch cuisine (if there is such a thing) is by an large the same as the British one: raise the meat and import the rest of your food from abroad, because the home grown stuff (except rhubarb) isn't worth bothering with (too expensive or not as tasty).

[Skullheadhq]

No it wouldn't be original (Acar, much?). Nor is it actually part of Dutch cuisine. Dutch cuisine (if there is such a thing) is by an large the same as the British one: raise the meat and import the rest of your food from abroad, because the home grown stuff (except rhubarb) isn't worth bothering with (too expensive or not as tasty).

Don't listen to the Belgian, he's still mad about 1815.
Here are some of the best food in the world (and Dutch)

-Hutspot
-Zuurkool
-Boerenkool
-Nederwiet
-Patatje Oorlog
-Frikandel
-Kroket
-HEMA worst
-Oranjevla
-Drop
-Broodje Aap
-Vlaflip
-Broodje Belg ;)
-Squid Paul
- the Spanish
and the list goes on and on

[Vladimir]

Don't listen to the Belgian, he's still mad about 1815.
Here are some of the best food in the world (and Dutch)

-Hutspot
-Zuurkool
-Boerenkool
-Nederwiet
-Patatje Oorlog
-Frikandel
-Kroket
-HEMA worst
-Oranjevla
-Drop
-Broodje Aap
-Vlaflip
-Broodje Belg
-...

and the list goes on and on

:inquisitive:

I'm sorry, could you please translate those? I'm all about tasty food but have no idea what you're talking about.

[Skullheadhq]

I'm all about tasty food but have no idea what you're talking about.

Maybe it has no English name, huh?

[HoreTore]

We want business - who knew.....??

Yes, the fun part being that the power has shifted - India is now the big brother and Britain is the one who needs India, not the other way around. What happened last century in the US is happening again, this time in India.


What hate against scary brown people?

Ah, yes, I forgot that Britain is the only country in the world where nobody hates foreigners... And people vote BNP because of their enviromental stance.

@tibilicus: At what planet did I suggest that India was ruled by direct suppression....? I'm baffled at how you managed to draw that conclusion, quite frankly. Lay off the pot...

[tibilicus]

Yes, the fun part being that the power has shifted - India is now the big brother and Britain is the one who needs India, not the other way around. What happened last century in the US is happening again, this time in India.



Ah, yes, I forgot that Britain is the only country in the world where nobody hates foreigners... And people vote BNP because of their enviromental stance.

@tibilicus: At what planet did I suggest that India was ruled by direct suppression....? I'm baffled at how you managed to draw that conclusion, quite frankly. Lay off the pot...

The BNP are a marginal political party who currently hold no seats in Westminster and probably never will. They only have seats in the European Parliament as people voted for them for a protest vote and due to the fact the turnout for the European elections are pitifully low and the European Parliament effectively does nothing, it doesn't mean anything.

Also I responded to your original point on the trail of thought that you were some how going to dig at Britain's colonial past, perhaps I was wrong about that. Seeming that isn't the case, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to propose with the topic. Are we meant to be surprised that India is a rising economy? Or am I meant to feel some humility that Britain's position has lessened in comparison to India? If that's the case then I feel no such humility as what's happening with India is the same as what's happening all over the east. The Asian economies are growing rapidly and in the near future China will be the world power, not the USA. We're seeing the shift from West to East and in the next couple of decades the world may look very different. This doesn't really bother me though, it's an inevitable fact.

[HoreTore]

The BNP are a marginal political party who currently hold no seats in Westminster and probably never will. They only have seats in the European Parliament as people voted for them for a protest vote and due to the fact the turnout for the European elections are pitifully low and the European Parliament effectively does nothing, it doesn't mean anything.

Also I responded to your original point on the trail of thought that you were some how going to dig at Britain's colonial past, perhaps I was wrong about that. Seeming that isn't the case, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to propose with the topic. Are we meant to be surprised that India is a rising economy? Or am I meant to feel some humility that Britain's position has lessened in comparison to India? If that's the case then I feel no such humility as what's happening with India is the same as what's happening all over the east. The Asian economies are growing rapidly and in the near future China will be the world power, not the USA. We're seeing the shift from West to East and in the next couple of decades the world may look very different. This doesn't really bother me though, it's an inevitable fact.

I posted this as a "Hmmm.... Look, another sign that the balance of power in the world is shifting".

I'm usually not very aggressive ~;)

[johnhughthom]

And people vote BNP because of their enviromental stance.

And BNP had a stupendous General Election.

[HoreTore]

And BNP had a stupendous General Election.

Still better than 10 years ago, like most other facist groups in Europe.

And who here believes that the average BNP hater can tell the difference between an Indian hindu from Punjab and a Pakistani muslim from Punjab when he sees one walking down the street....? I find that highly unlikely.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And BNP had a stupendous General Election.

They did?

[johnhughthom]

They did?

No, that's the point.

[InsaneApache]

Still better than 10 years ago, like most other facist groups in Europe.

And who here believes that the average BNP hater can tell the difference between an Indian hindu from Punjab and a Pakistani muslim from Punjab when he sees one walking down the street....? I find that highly unlikely.

Ironic isn't it that the NF and the BNP were off the radar, getting a dozen or so votes, before New Labour got in.

New Labour. New Britain.

[HoreTore]

Ironic isn't it that the NF and the BNP were off the radar, getting a dozen or so votes, before New Labour got in.

New Labour. New Britain.

Are you asking me to not blame every trouble in the world on Tony Blair? If so, you're asking too much, my friend!!

[Wishazu]

Do you have a problem with the British hortore? I don't tend to post much in the backroom but I do pass alot of time here following the discussions of others wiser than me and it seems that a day cannot go by without you having a dig at my people and my country. I find it for the most part irritating but occasionally offensive. Do you have issues?

[HoreTore]

Do you have a problem with the British hortore? I don't tend to post much in the backroom but I do pass alot of time here following the discussions of others wiser than me and it seems that a day cannot go by without you having a dig at my people and my country. I find it for the most part irritating but occasionally offensive. Do you have issues?

....just how is any of this "a dig" at "your people"*....?

And no, except for New Labour, Tony Blair, the monarchists and the nationalists, I don't really care.... And the last two are universal, mind you.

*I'm currently under the assumption that you are, like all others here, just one person

[InsaneApache]

Are you asking me to not blame every trouble in the world on Tony Blair? If so, you're asking too much, my friend!!

With the inherent racism of the left, what do you expect?

[HoreTore]

With the inherent racism of the left, what do you expect?

Now you lost me...

[rory_20_uk]

We're that racist we have chicken tikka masala as our national dish.

It was invented in Glasgow.

Is this Small Man Syndrome? Norway hasn't been important since... forever. Perhaps there is the need to see other diminished to closer to their level.

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

Yes, the fun part being that the power has shifted - India is now the big brother and Britain is the one who needs India, not the other way around. What happened last century in the US is happening again, this time in India.

Ah, yes, I forgot that Britain is the only country in the world where nobody hates foreigners... And people vote BNP because of their enviromental stance.
funny, that's not the way it came across. if you want to say india is a rising power, fine, if you want me to be desolate about the fact you after the wrong person, i'm delighted.

the BNP got nowhere, as usual, and they will continue to get nowhere as long as immigration is 'controlled' and PR gets shafted.

[Beskar]

STV and AV are the step in the right direction.

[HoreTore]

It was invented in Glasgow.

Is this Small Man Syndrome? Norway hasn't been important since... forever. Perhaps there is the need to see other diminished to closer to their level.

Yup, Britain, Norway and every other European country will soon be at the same, irrelevant level. The only way for any of us to influence anything in the future, will be through the EU.... Fortunately, since I don't give a rat's behind about influence or power, I can still happily be against membership in the EU :smash:

But it is my understanding that most nationalists do care about such things... It'll be hilarious, they want none of the EU, but they want power and influence over the world, which they can't get any of without membership in the EU.... :laugh4:


funny, that's not the way it came across. if you want to say india is a rising power, fine, if you want me to be desolate about the fact you after the wrong person, i'm delighted.

Why on earth would I want you to be desolate about it...? Was it the shoe-licking comment that got you? That one actually wasn't directed at any Brit; I could've happily swapped "Britain" with any other European country and the comment would stand. It just so happened that it is the British PM who's visiting India today, so that's why I said "David Cameron". The fact that India is a former underling does, of course, add a little extra spice to the story.

[Centurion1]

Hmmm horetore you can pick a hindu from punjab and seperate him from a moslem from punjab? This sounds likely......

[HoreTore]

Hmmm horetore you can pick a hindu from punjab and seperate him from a moslem from punjab? This sounds likely......

No more than I can seperate a French Catholic from a French Protestant.

[Furunculus]

But it is my understanding that most nationalists do care about such things... It'll be hilarious, they want none of the EU, but they want power and influence over the world, which they can't get any of without membership in the EU.... :laugh4:
.

that might be a problem for 'the' nationalists, but it isn't a problem for this person, for Britain will still be the seventh largest economy in the world by 2050, we'll still have plenty of influence in the world for my purposes.

[HoreTore]

that might be a problem for 'the' nationalists, but it isn't a problem for this person,

I do wonder, why do you always seem to believe that I'm attacking you whenever I talk about Britain?


for Britain will still be the seventh largest economy in the world by 2050, we'll still have plenty of influence in the world for my purposes.

....Assuming, of course, that India will help you get out of the recession, because with the negative growth your currently experiencing, you're looking at zero economy in 2050.... Also, you're working under the assumptiuon that there will actually be a britain in 2050, and not just an EU....

[InsaneApache]

Now you lost me...

No my friend. You're the one who's hopelessly lost.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Don't listen to the Belgian, he's still mad about 1815.
Here are some of the best food in the world (and Dutch)

-Hutspot
-Zuurkool
-Boerenkool
-Nederwiet
-Patatje Oorlog
-Frikandel
-Kroket
-HEMA worst
-Oranjevla
-Drop
-Broodje Aap
-Vlaflip
-Broodje Belg ;)
-Squid Paul
- the Spanish
and the list goes on and on

My point exactly. Out of the entire list the only things that are genuinely excellent are Drop (liquorice, but not the English allsorts kind) and Squid. The rest is pretty meh or truly disgusting.

But Squid is cheating because its a Mediterranean dish; and a good consommé is worlds ahead of the rest you mentioned.

[Wishazu]

I do wonder, why do you always seem to believe that I'm attacking you whenever I talk about Britain?

I wouldn't presume to speak for someone else here but perhaps it's because he's British? Every time you talk about Britain you are attacking it...

[Skullheadhq]

But Squid is cheating because its a Mediterranean dish; and a good consommé is worlds ahead of the rest you mentioned.

:brood:

http://media.nu.nl/m/m1azx09aolgx.jpg

[Furunculus]

I do wonder, why do you always seem to believe that I'm attacking you whenever I talk about Britain?
no, that's your imagination, still, i am more than willing to draw attention to your behaviour when it is particularly trollish.

....Assuming, of course, that India will help you get out of the recession, because with the negative growth your currently experiencing, you're looking at zero economy in 2050.... Also, you're working under the assumptiuon that there will actually be a britain in 2050, and not just an EU....
lol, we'll do just fine i'm sure:
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=24195

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Skullheadhq
Why, not smarting that Paul got it right and you got it wrong are you?

[Fragony]

My point exactly. Out of the entire list the only things that are genuinely excellent are Drop (liquorice, but not the English allsorts kind) and Squid. The rest is pretty meh or truly disgusting.

But Squid is cheating because its a Mediterranean dish; and a good consommé is worlds ahead of the rest you mentioned.

Boerenkool and zuurkool are the mana of the gods. Sooooooooooooooooooooo good.

[rory_20_uk]

Yup, Britain, Norway and every other European country will soon be at the same, irrelevant level. The only way for any of us to influence anything in the future, will be through the EU.... Fortunately, since I don't give a rat's behind about influence or power, I can still happily be against membership in the EU :smash:

But it is my understanding that most nationalists do care about such things... It'll be hilarious, they want none of the EU, but they want power and influence over the world, which they can't get any of without membership in the EU.... :laugh4:

Are you drunk? The EU excells at one thing: fudges. It has no real policies bar fluff as that would involve sorting out the mess the EU is. Any issue has so many views that the "solution" is something that everyone can either ignore or work their around. The EU stand up to the USA / China - hell even India / Iran / Brazil / Russia. Half of them will want the opposite of the others, ranging from food imports to cheap shoes.

~:smoking:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Depends. EU works pretty well for things like Congo missions (the only successful one so far is an EU one, and the reason it is/was successful is that it brought not just troops but also things like a police corps with it). EU works not so well for strong arming the USA or similar.

[rory_20_uk]

"Join the EU, we can send a mission to help the Congo... for a bit."

If it's no good for matters with the USA or frankly anyone important then what's the point?

~:smoking:

[Husar]

Of course it's not good for matters with the USA because the EU member that constantly whines about the EU not being good about matters with the USA or other big nations has a "special relationship" with the USA and does everything their "special friend" wants of them. ~;)

[Ja'chyra]

It happened with the US after WW2, now it's happening again.

A PM, half a government and around 80 people from Britains business elite has landed in India, the biggest official delegation since Harold Macmillan was the first British PM in an independent India. Back then, India needed Britains help to create its state. Now the tables are turned, India no longer has any real need for Britain, while Britain desperatly needs India to help them out of recession. At the same time, nationalism is on the rise back in Britain, fuelled by hate against scary brown people....including Indians.

I, for one, find all this highly amusing. At least Cameron understands that Britains new role in the world is to bow down and lick boot. When will the rest of the population follow him?


You've got a bit of a downer of everything at the minute, haven't you.

Maybe you need a little 5 minutes to yourself or a happy pill or something. Go on, break the habit of months, post something nice.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No more than I can seperate a French Catholic from a French Protestant.

That's usually pretty easy, the Roman Catholic will be wearing a St. Christopher's and the Cucifix, the Protestant wouldn't be caught dead with either.


I do wonder, why do you always seem to believe that I'm attacking you whenever I talk about Britain?

It's not only him, you are often very rude about Britian. What about your repeated attacks on British women? Maybe you should ask Secura what she thinks of those some time? I've seen her in here of late, I believe.


....Assuming, of course, that India will help you get out of the recession, because with the negative growth your currently experiencing, you're looking at zero economy in 2050.... Also, you're working under the assumptiuon that there will actually be a britain in 2050, and not just an EU....

Growth was 1.3% last quarter at current estimates, and it has been positive growth for some time. How's Norway doing?

[Furunculus]

Of course it's not good for matters with the USA because the EU member that constantly whines about the EU not being good about matters with the USA or other big nations has a "special relationship" with the USA and does everything their "special friend" wants of them. ~;)
don't kid yourself, europe doesn't have a collective set of balls between the whole sorry lot.

[Beskar]

Should elect me as European President.

Oh wait, there are no elections. :cry:

[gaelic cowboy]

don't kid yourself, europe doesn't have a collective set of balls between the whole sorry lot.

Furunculus are you not European??????????? I think you mean the EU doesnt have any balls.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Furunculus are you not European??????????? I think you mean the EU doesnt have any balls.

Furunculus does not consider himself European, in point of fact neither do I, not in the sense of being substantively simliar to mainland Europe. In point of fact, it can be seen that Scandanavia is also not "European" in the same sense as France and Germany, but then neither is Spain or Greece for that matter.

[Furunculus]

Furunculus are you not European??????????? I think you mean the EU doesnt have any balls.

no, not in any important or tangible way.

[Husar]

Furunculus does not consider himself European, in point of fact neither do I, not in the sense of being substantively simliar to mainland Europe. In point of fact, it can be seen that Scandanavia is also not "European" in the same sense as France and Germany, but then neither is Spain or Greece for that matter.

And France and Germany are exactly the same? :laugh4:
It's quite ridiculous, if you're going by geographical standards we're still on the same continent, I've never seen England mentioned as it's own continent, and if we're going by culture etc. then I don't see why England would be more different from Germany than France?

[InsaneApache]

Fog in the channel, Europe cut off.

[Furunculus]

And France and Germany are exactly the same? :laugh4:
It's quite ridiculous, if you're going by geographical standards we're still on the same continent, I've never seen England mentioned as it's own continent, and if we're going by culture etc. then I don't see why England would be more different from Germany than France?

they may not be, but the fact stands; i do not feel a european bond with nations on the continent, nor do i see any need to invent one.

[gaelic cowboy]

So you will be declining to enter the Champions League so???????????

[Furunculus]

what?

[gaelic cowboy]

^
Only European teams can enter

[Husar]

they may not be, but the fact stands; i do not feel a european bond with nations on the continent, nor do i see any need to invent one.

I can respect that, but I also don't see a need to try and support that by saying you're oh-so different when you're not and neither do I really see the point in fighting european integration vigorously as if it would completely ruin everybody who participates. :shrug:
I'm not supporting everything the EU does either but I still support a united Europe in general.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Fog in the channel, Europe cut off.

Exactly. Which is why you paid vast sums of money for a safe escape route to France. :tongue:

[InsaneApache]

Exactly. Which is why you paid vast sums of money for a safe escape route to France. :tongue:

Yes but I'd have to get past the M25 and that :daisy: called London first. So I probably wouldn't bother. :book:

[Husar]

Going by the amount of ":daisy:" you seem to have on your island it's even more surprising that you think you're special in a positive way... ~;)

[Furunculus]

I can respect that, but I also don't see a need to try and support that by saying you're oh-so different when you're not and neither do I really see the point in fighting european integration vigorously as if it would completely ruin everybody who participates. :shrug:
I'm not supporting everything the EU does either but I still support a united Europe in general.

i only oppose it when it threatens to drag britain into the mess too.

[rory_20_uk]

We want a divided Europe, not to join it.

~:smoking:

[Justiciar]

Do we? Was there a memo?

[rory_20_uk]

Does the last 500 years count?

~:smoking:

[Justiciar]

No. Not in the least.

[Vladimir]

No. Not in the least.

So much for us Americans forgetting history.

Yes. British culture is predisposed toward a divided Europe. The further up the social ladder you go, the more likely it is to be true.

[Justiciar]

I never said anything about forgetting history. Butchering it and picking it apart to suit your own biases, and then holding the scrappy remains up as a blueprint (or excuse) for future policy, on the other hand, is bloody stupid.

[Vladimir]

I never said anything about forgetting history. Butchering it and picking it apart to suit your own biases, and then holding the scrappy remains up as a blueprint (or excuse) for future policy, on the other hand, is bloody stupid.

Then perhaps memory isn't the issue and analysis is. Relationships and interests form over time. The longer the time, the deeper and more involved the interests.

Far from stupid, it's actually quite rational.

[Furunculus]

I never said anything about forgetting history. Butchering it and picking it apart to suit your own biases, and then holding the scrappy remains up as a blueprint (or excuse) for future policy, on the other hand, is bloody stupid.

i believe rory was being flippant............

[Justiciar]

Aye, I know. I was attempting to do the same. And failing, apparently.

@ Vladimir: I've been picking m' nose longer than I've been walking. As it grew, so too did the involvement of my digits within it. Should I indulge this habit as a personal tradition that's proven profitable (or at least mildly interesting) in the past, or grow up and realise that I now look an absolute tit? You shouldn't cling to past form when everything around you's changing, surely. Having said that, there's nothing wrong with the occasional rummage.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

@ Vladimir: I've been picking m' nose longer than I've been walking. As it grew, so too did the involvement of my digits within it. Should I indulge this habit as a personal tradition that's proven profitable (or at least mildly interesting) in the past, or grow up and realise that I now look an absolute tit? You shouldn't cling to past form when everything around you's changing, surely. Having said that, there's nothing wrong with the occasional rummage.

Just so long as you don't have your finger in up to the 4th knuckle, you should be alright.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Does the last 500 years count?

~:smoking:'mericans don't kill injuns anymore, Germans don't wear pointy helmets anymore, and France no longer regards the rest of Europe as puny semi-civilised nations to be plundered at will for the latest French powerscheme.

The days when a French - British war would determine the fate of North America and India are well and truly over. (More's the pity! With the rosbifs bogged down in Asia now would be a great time to attack). A divided Europe no longer is a pillar of British security, no more than Elisabeth is Empress of India or the royal Navy is as large as the second two combined.

[Furunculus]

quite so, and i do not want a divided europe.'


however, i do believe their are limits to how united a europe you create before the stress imposed by ever-deeper-union creates a negative feedback whereby cultural integration and harmony starts to reverse as a backlash.

we already have peace in europe, legislative cooperation, and free movement of goods and people, shang-ri-la is here already, but continued enforced integration is actually destroying this harmony by forcing all kinds of cultural impositions on the various peoples within europe.

[Husar]

Then perhaps memory isn't the issue and analysis is. Relationships and interests form over time. The longer the time, the deeper and more involved the interests.

Far from stupid, it's actually quite rational.

It's inflexible and we all know what happens to inflexible things in these flexible times, they fall apart... ~;)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

quite so, and i do not want a divided europe.'


however, i do believe their are limits to how united a europe you create before the stress imposed by ever-deeper-union creates a negative feedback whereby cultural integration and harmony starts to reverse as a backlash.

we already have peace in europe, legislative cooperation, and free movement of goods and people, shang-ri-la is here already, but continued enforced integration is actually destroying this harmony by forcing all kinds of cultural impositions on the various peoples within europe.

I agree, and I would add that recent EU expansion has killed any hope of real "Union" by increasing cultural diversity beyond a reasonable tollerance level. It is hard enough to imagine France, Britian, Italy, Spain and Germany forging a common governmental structure, adding in the former Eastern Bloc countries (and then Turkey) makes it impossible in the current climate. In fact, we are seeing increasingly popular separatist movements, not just in Basque country and Northern Ireland but in areas like Scotland and Catalonia, even parts of (shock!) Germany.

[Vladimir]

It's inflexible and we all know what happens to inflexible things in these flexible times, they fall apart... ~;)

Yep. The best way is to gradually wear it down like with water.

I would love to see a more united Europe. Among other things, it moves us closer to removing most of our military from Europe. I'm interested to see if their social model will survive if they have to provide for their own defense again.

[Wishazu]

The days when a French - British war would determine the fate of North America and India are well and truly over. (More's the pity! With the rosbifs bogged down in Asia now would be a great time to attack).

The first thing I've read here in while that actually had me LOL!

Thankyou Louis.

:bow: