Historians: which language has served you best?

[jabarto]

So, after tossing the idea around in my head for a while, I've decided that I really want to be a historian. I understand that having a solid grasp of foreign languages is crucial in that field, and I will be trying to learn one starting next semester. So I ask the history buffs on this board (both professional and amateur), as well as the linguists; which language would you suggest I learn?

Obviously this requires some background info, so here it is. I'm currently an undergrad who plans to specialize in medieval history. As it was explained to me, the three big languages in that field are Latin, French, and German. What I want to know is, which of these languages would be most suitable (in both practicality and ease of learning) for a native English speaker? Or are there others I should be considering?

Given my circumstances, it's looking like French will be the first one I take. I realyl wanted to learn Latin, but my college doesn't offer it. German is also an option, but I'm told it's harder to pick up than French.

So yeah. Several options. But which one do you guys think would be a good starting point? :book:

[Fragony]

99% is written in English and you already speak it. I can read French and German but not enough to read scientific articles, both are pretty damn complex. Naturally French is sexier.

[Megas Methuselah]

Well, like Frag said, you already speak English. If I were you, I'd get copies of a few-hundred-year-old books from the library, sit back for a few nights, and develop a better understanding of relatively Old English. Either that, or just read Shakespheare more often. Or perhaps the King James Bible. :laugh4:

On another note, please consider the fact that it is very difficult to get a job with a degree majoring in history... I'm told it is just a bit more useful than majoring in philosophy, which is why I'm only getting a minor degree in it.

[CountArach]

It depends on which area you want to focus on. English is an obvious must and Latin is pretty much a requirement if you want to go beyond just a degree in History (at the University I go to knowledge of one ancient language is a requirement for an Ancient History Honours degree). If you want to focus on classical languages (particularly Latin), German is important, but it is absolutely not necessary. With Medieval history I would imagine it depends on what region you want to focus on - if, for example, you want to study French history, then learn French instead of German. Really though, English and Latin would get you through without a problem.

[Centurion1]

Everythings in english now. But I know latin (I don't want to say fluent but pretty good) and everything from romans on is going to be latin up until the 18th to 19th century. Personally my school has a fabulous classics program and I really wanted to brance out and go for greek to round out but I'm going for an economics degree with a minor in a science like physics or something of that ilk and I think I'm going to choose a more realistic contemporary language like mandarin.

Seriously though think very hard about majoring in history, the only highly successful history majors I know are proffessors authors and retired military officers who are technically qualified for other jobs like my father. And there are a lot of history majors all thinking they will be profeesors and end up teaching high school.

Actually megas philosophy is not an easy degree to get.

[Louis VI the Fat]

For Mediæval European history I'd go with Latin. Latin was the written language for most of the period - Abélard and Héloise even wrote their private correspondence to each other in Latin. Then there is the problem that what was written in the vernacular is barely recognisable as the modern languages. So even if you would speak French or German, the sources will be in Middle French or German - compare Geoffrey Chaucer for a taste of the effect. On top of all that, there is the problem that neither modern language was standardised. All that great French literature is in Occitan, which is not the basis of modern French.

For secondary sources however, French is excellent. France was a demographic heavyweight in the Middle Ages, central to the European Middle Ages. Consequently, there is a wealth of mediæval research published in French.


Either modern language does have the advantage of being a living language. You can watch some movies, read some books, travel around, study abroad for six months, get a foreign girlfriend. It's all slightly more fun than the mostly esoteric ability to read Latin.

[jabarto]

Well honestly, I'm getting some pretty mixed information in my inquiries on this matter. THe only thing that seems to be unilaterally agreed upon is that history PhD's are useless. And I can't get into an HVACR program either, because the damn things fill up so quickly.

I've had enough for now. I'd welcome any more advice from anyone reading this, but I think I need to take a break for a little while or I'm going to get depressed.

[Ibrahim]

So, after tossing the idea around in my head for a while, I've decided that I really want to be a historian. I understand that having a solid grasp of foreign languages is crucial in that field, and I will be trying to learn one starting next semester. So I ask the history buffs on this board (both professional and amateur), as well as the linguists; which language would you suggest I learn?

Obviously this requires some background info, so here it is. I'm currently an undergrad who plans to specialize in medieval history. As it was explained to me, the three big languages in that field are Latin, French, and German. What I want to know is, which of these languages would be most suitable (in both practicality and ease of learning) for a native English speaker? Or are there others I should be considering?

Given my circumstances, it's looking like French will be the first one I take. I realyl wanted to learn Latin, but my college doesn't offer it. German is also an option, but I'm told it's harder to pick up than French.

So yeah. Several options. But which one do you guys think would be a good starting point? :book:

what region of the world most intrigues you? if you know that, then you'll know the answer.

that is because knowlege of English, while helpful, will confine you to reading papers about stuff, not the stuff itself. an Archaeologist needs to be able to reappraise old ideas-including old ideas of how to interpret ancient inscriptions. to do this without knowlege of the ancient language is possible, but its better if you learn the language.

e.g: if you're into Egypt, not only do you need knowlege of Egyptian/Coptic (specifically the scripts used: heiroglyphic/Heiratic/Demotic), but perhaps Greek (Ancient) and Latin, and maybe German.

of course, if you want to make your life easier, learning the local language helps; saves you the money for a translator. that's why I plan on Learning Mongolian and Chinese-eventually XD

usign the above example (Egypt), just learning any number of eastern Arabic dialects (Levantine, khaleeji, najdi, Hejazi, Iraqi, Sudani, Yemeni, masri (the main dialect in Egypt-and the most successful dialect), sa'eedi (lower Egyptian speech*)) would help; all the dialects are mutually intelligeable. I natively speek a levantine dialect.

to summarize: in regards to languages, don't just confine yourself to academic languages (English, German, Greek, and Latin). knowledge of the languages of the region (I mean the ancient versions, found on inscriptions) you are interested in is just as important. knowledge of the area's modern language would further aid ye.

*there is a difference.

PS: I hope I make some sense here XD; I'm going by what I've learned as a paleontology student :clown:

PS2: whoever said a PhD in Archaeology is useless can can it. you're getting the OP depressed, and its not necessarily true.

[woad&fangs]

of course, if you want to make your life easier, learning the local language helps;
So you're going to learn to speak velociraptorese?

[CountArach]

Well honestly, I'm getting some pretty mixed information in my inquiries on this matter. THe only thing that seems to be unilaterally agreed upon is that history PhD's are useless. And I can't get into an HVACR program either, because the damn things fill up so quickly.
They are only useless in a real-world application sense, and even then that is only assuming you go into some non-history based field. There aren't many people willing to go for a PhD in History because of this perception and as such if you are good enough you have a good chance of being accepted into Academia. If you don't want to go into Academia, then you might want ot rethink the PhD idea. However, as with all liberal arts degrees you end up with very important analytical skills and researching abilities that will be able to help you in later life. Plus a PhD shows the ability to be dedicated to something for a vewry long-term, as well as a high level of intelligence, two things many employers are going to value. Don't let it get you down - just do what you want to do and find a way to make it work. I'm going to start my honours year in Ancient History next year and do my PhD as soon as I can after that, and I know that this is what will make me happy and fulfilled. It is just a matter of having the right mindset and fitting everything around that.

2 cents from someone who has gone through the same periods of depression you are describing here.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Liberal Arts for teh win!

The degree gets you nowhere, the skills you aquired get you anywhere.

[naut]

German is also an option, but I'm told it's harder to pick up than French.
:laugh4:

Whomever told you that is a strange person indeed. German is infinitely easier for an English speaker to learn than French is. Often words will be similar, there is a clear structure to the language and the pronunciation is not overly complex, unlike French.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

:laugh4:

Whomever told you that is a strange person indeed. German is infinitely easier for an English speaker to learn than French is. Often words will be similar, there is a clear structure to the language and the pronunciation is not overly complex, unlike French.

Plus you'll already have important words and phrases you know from war movies.

[Fragony]

Well honestly, I'm getting some pretty mixed information in my inquiries on this matter. THe only thing that seems to be unilaterally agreed upon is that history PhD's are useless. And I can't get into an HVACR program either, because the damn things fill up so quickly.

I've had enough for now. I'd welcome any more advice from anyone reading this, but I think I need to take a break for a little while or I'm going to get depressed.

Well history can be depressing. To make it worse, language changes, your knowledge on French and German is pretty useless. English as well. But still, latin for old Europe, French for post-modern, English for modern. I don't know how it is in the states, but a history degree is a big bonus here, it's not useless.

[Skullheadhq]

Latin (Ancient Rome and Medieval times) and Greek (Ancient Greek and Byzantine times)

[Rhyfelwyr]

Maybe it's different in the states, but here History is a very competetive course to even get into, and it's a good general degree to have for future career options (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2005/jul/19/highereducation.workandcareers), it doesn't tie you down like medicine or whatever. It's not seen as an easy degree like sociology or computer science or whatever (I'm not saying they are easy, it's just the common perception).

I guess people are maybe concerned because a history degree isn't very vocational? But that doesn't really matter, having a degree shows you have all the basic work and communication skills an employer would want.

I'm going into my last year of a joint degree in History and Politics myself, and I've never heard of having to learn any languages, although admittedly I have been focused on early modern stuff, only did a bit of medieval history in the first year.

[Ibrahim]

So you're going to learn to speak velociraptorese?

:laugh4:

no wiseacker :clown:

in my case, I'd learn mongolian, so as to communicate with the local people. some of whom may end up helping with the dig, if one is lucky.

[Moros]

I have most experience with Ancient history where the main languages are of course Latin and Greek when it comes to ancient languages and English and German when it comes to the modern languages. Now I'm not sure what the most important modern languages are in Medieval history, though usually the language from the area you want to study are important. Latin you usually can learn at university, you will have to learn medieval/post classical latin at university anyway. Well at least if you really want to take it up serious with the languages, as medieval latin is quite different. A lot of words have shifted meanings for example. If you are interested in west-European history picking up german and or french is not a bad idea. However as has been said before English is the most important one, as it has most publications is the language used in most lectures even in foreign countries, and a lot of publications get also translated.

[Beskar]

It's not seen as an easy degree like sociology or computer science or whatever (I'm not saying they are easy, it's just the common perception).

Don't you mean "Buisness Studies" "Media Studies" "Buisness Maths" and other such titles? From what I know from people doing it, Computer Science is far from simple, especially as you have to know how to program and at the end, you have to do a major programming project.

[Jolt]

I have most experience with Ancient history where the main languages are of course Latin and Greek when it comes to ancient languages and English and German when it comes to the modern languages. Now I'm not sure what the most important modern languages are in Medieval history, though usually the language from the area you want to study are important. Latin you usually can learn at university, you will have to learn medieval/post classical latin at university anyway. Well at least if you really want to take it up serious with the languages, as medieval latin is quite different. A lot of words have shifted meanings for example. If you are interested in west-European history picking up german and or french is not a bad idea. However as has been said before English is the most important one, as it has most publications is the language used in most lectures even in foreign countries, and a lot of publications get also translated.

Still, there is an colossal amount of works which do not get translated into English. For instance, my major area of interest is the Portuguese Discoveries, and if I wanted to stick to English, I wouldn't get nearly anywhere. Practically every credible primary and secondary source is written in Portuguese, and the major works written in English about the subject speak in a general manner (With differing levels of objectivity) of the Portuguese discoveries as a whole, and the major events of it. Things like the Portuguese presence in Macau and China during the 16th-18th, or Indian Portuguese Empire during that time (Which could very well allow for a master's thesis), giving just two examples, you won't get anything in English, or what you can get from it, you can easily get much more information in Portuguese.

So yeah, I'd say history is far, far, from being English dominated.

EDIT:
Ancient Egypt era: Egyptian hieroglyphs and derivates
Ancient Babylonia/Assyria: Akkadian cuneiforms
Ancient Greece: Koine Greek (For Alexandrian and Diadochi periods, learning Akkadian and/or Elamite cuneiforms can also be useful. There is a bounty of information written down from primary sources in those languages)
Roman era: Classical Latin
Dark Ages/Medieval era: Medieval Latin and the language of the area you're specializing in.

[ajaxfetish]

No need to pick and choose. Go for Latin, and French, and German. And then, by the time you finish with them, maybe you'll decide to leave history behind and become a linguist ~;).

Ajax

[Tellos Athenaios]

Don't you mean "Buisness Studies" "Media Studies" "Buisness Maths" and other such titles? From what I know from people doing it, Computer Science is far from simple, especially as you have to know how to program and at the end, you have to do a major programming project.

Proper CS is not so much about programming: it is about computations. So it is essentially a field which takes bits of all sub-fields of Mathematics and models machines or instructions with it, and for that reason you see students of linguistics taking CS-courses (formal grammars, mathematical descriptions behind logic). Programming is merely a practical project to demonstrate your understanding of some of the required skills. A typical CS project is http://pierement.zoo.cs.uu.nl/muugle/ Even the CS-y programming languages reflect that: for instance Algol was devised as a way to write programs that were provably (as in a math's proof) correct, and Haskell requires a bit of understanding of math before you can even use it.

As for languages: I would say you need to learn to read them, mostly. So it's not such a major issue if you cannot pronounce “Au secours” to safe your life if all you are going to do is *read* it. With that in mind the much less flexible and more formal French language would be an easier thing to pick up than German (where syntax and auxiliary verbs can play funny tricks with the meaning of a sentence) and about as useful too. Of course the exact usefulness of a language depends heavily on the research you will do and need to read.

[Fisherking]

I can not speak to what you may find in French, but you will find a lot that is different or unpublished in English from German.

Medieval German was somewhat different from Modern German but it would have been, for the most part, translated and the same for the Latin. However, Latin was the most widely written language of the middle ages.

I find it surprising that your University does not offer it.

As to the difficulty of German, that rests mostly in the various Cases and that is a difficulty in speaking it more than in reading it. Once you have developed the vocabulary that should not present much of a problem.


Hope that helps!

[Moros]

Still, there is an colossal amount of works which do not get translated into English. For instance, my major area of interest is the Portuguese Discoveries, and if I wanted to stick to English, I wouldn't get nearly anywhere. Practically every credible primary and secondary source is written in Portuguese, and the major works written in English about the subject speak in a general manner (With differing levels of objectivity) of the Portuguese discoveries as a whole, and the major events of it. Things like the Portuguese presence in Macau and China during the 16th-18th, or Indian Portuguese Empire during that time (Which could very well allow for a master's thesis), giving just two examples, you won't get anything in English, or what you can get from it, you can easily get much more information in Portuguese.

So yeah, I'd say history is far, far, from being English dominated.

EDIT:
Ancient Egypt era: Egyptian hieroglyphs and derivates
Ancient Babylonia/Assyria: Akkadian cuneiforms
Ancient Greece: Koine Greek (For Alexandrian and Diadochi periods, learning Akkadian and/or Elamite cuneiforms can also be useful. There is a bounty of information written down from primary sources in those languages)
Roman era: Classical Latin
Dark Ages/Medieval era: Medieval Latin and the language of the area you're specializing in.
English is dominating historical publications. Of course as I stated the modern language(s) of the place you're interested in is important too. Also Iberia is more dominated by it's local languages compared to most other nearby regions. Is that because noone bothers to learn spanish or portuguese, as they don't bother to learn other languages, I'm not sure?