View Full Version : The new UK Project: The Big Society
UK: Bank announced massive profit.
What are the targets for the Coalition Government: Allege fraud benefit, the Pensioners and retirement age, emigrates, the handicapped, the Social houses. And of course it increased of the daily life taxes.
There are not much poor left…
Cut in the Police and all Public Services, NHS and Army included… Done.
The millionaires at the head told us we are all in the same boat and every body will have to share his/her load… Except some of course…
Fighting taxes evasion, err, not a priority apparently…
This Coalition makes Margaret Thatcher as a soft hippy lefty…
Don’t worry, there is plan: The Big Society where Government duties will be taken over by private donors and Charities.
The new UK Government has a new plan: Back the 19Th Century and the phylanstery movement when nice and generous and compassionate Captain of Industry were building a new model of life according to their vie of Good Behaviour and Morality.
It worked so well that the UK invented the Unions
Idea about what theis new old idea will deliver?
Furunculus
08-07-2010, 16:26
i think it is an awesome idea for one principle reason:
it is the only mechanism that has a chance of bringing public spending back below 40% of GDP, and thus encouraging a faster rate of economic growth necessary to preserve Britain's standard of living in 2050 and beyond.
There is a reason why by 2050 britain australia and canada will have a GDP per-capita of $80,000, when france and germany will have to 'struggle' with a mere $65,000:
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=24195
It called "free-wheeling anglo-saxon capitalism" in English, or "piracy" in European.
"piracy" in European.
Yarr!! :pirate2:
tibilicus
08-07-2010, 18:25
It seems a rather empty idea seeming the government is encouraging people to volunteer whilst cutting funding for volunteer organisations. What they're trying to say is that we, the British public, should fill the void of government services due for the axe. It wont happen, seeming relatively few people can give their time or want to give their time to do volunteer work, particularly when it involves mundane tasks such as maintaining services which have been controlled by the public sector. Simply put, people don't see maintaining public places like parks as "their job", they expect someone else to do it.
I accept that the public sector is currently unsustainable, but I wish Cameron would drop this "big society" rubbish he tried to peddle during the election which the public reacted to lukewarmly at best. The idea that local people should have control over their own local facilities is a good one and I believe that people should have the power to have such control, without the restriction of local government. I just don't think people care enough to do anything though.
Furunculus
08-07-2010, 18:57
it will take time, state dependency is like an opium addiction that induces apathy, but the result will be worthwhile in the long-run.
rory_20_uk
08-08-2010, 09:13
Labour tried the Big Bureaucracy. That only managed to bankrupt us.
Millionaires at the head of the Tories... Apparently different to the Millionaires at the head of Labour for some undisclosed reason. Possibly as being a Champagne leftist is OK.
Fraud needs tightening? What, Labour hasn't managed to do this in the 13 years they were in? Odd that...
Banks:
Are muli-national. Most of the profits were from abroad!
Are large businesses. It should be a measure of the Return On Investment, not the absolute value. A small company earning £1 million might have larger margins than another earning £1 billion.
Need we mention how great the number of managers increasing in the NHS compared to clinicians?
The UK has had unions. Initially they forced through changes that were required. Then they forced through some more that helped destroy Industry in the UK.
Now they are still there, clinging on to their power (oh, and incidentally 6 figure salaries) and still maintaining that striking is the way to "solve" problems such as a massive national debt, uncompetitive industry and a bloated civil service.
~:smoking:
Soft healers leave ugly wounds as we say here, these damnd millionaires are paying the whole lot of it all. Try getting by when they feel they have been taxed enough and pack their bags. Wouldn't blame them.
“Millionaires at the head of the Tories... Apparently different to the Millionaires at the head of Labour for some undisclosed reason. Possibly as being a Champagne leftist is OK.”
Yeap. Same people, same policy: I tried in vain to explain it to a colleague… They are going in the same schools, meat in the same dinner and eat at the same restaurants. Probably married each others families… They will not endanger the other member of the family who got a nice position in the City…
There are no more real left, only “soft” Conservative and Conservative.
By the way, if you think I am a Champagne Leftist you are sooooo wrong…:laugh4:
I am a combat leftist. :rifle:
Trained in the Army, the kind who go to war to implement what they think…
I wouldn’t be as nice as the Caviar leftist (or Champagne). They are Social traitors and the bench we had in UK are not different from the all lot…. Nice speeches and probably give some money to charities but full their pockets when they can as shown in the expenses scandal not so long time ago. :hanged:
You wouldn’t like me, you would probably hate me and certainly not even try to patronise me…:laugh4:
But you’re right: What difference did the “new” labour. They implemented what Maggie initiated. Did they build Social Housing? Nope. The minimum wage amount is a joke, the fiscal Paradise still exist for the Rich and even extended, they followed blindly the USA etc…
Like all the so-called Social Democrats they forget their roots and why they were elected. They were bought and spent by their Masters.:shame:
“Then they forced through some more that helped destroy Industry in the UK.”
What destroys UK Industry was the policy initiated by Maggie and implemented by her New Labour followers. The will to make UK a Country of Services around the City and the “delocalisation” to more exploited and less protected workers in the “Third” world did the job. The New Labour just followed and didn’t rectify…:no:
The national Debt is a joke. The results of the Bankers show how much big is the joke.
The Private Sector is responsible for it with its greed, the New Labour helped their Friends with the Public money and now it is business as usual and the Old Conservative are taking the opportunity to implemented the new 19Th Century policy…
And like in the 19th Century it will failed not without social consequence of course on the weakest of our societies.
I don’t see any solutions to be really honest as the so-called Left walk hand in hand with the Right. The speed of the betrayal is so fast that you can’t even see it. And I am decisively too old for a Revolution that is mostly impossible in UK anyway…
I paid more than one month of my Salary to the Council (Conservative) this year. And they want to do less. Well, they increase their Salaries mind you… Not really different from the “New” Labour are they?
So same taxes but less for the money: Privatisation for the Rich to make more money… Good old Tories… We will love them…
And the Big Society: Go to the Past and you know how it will end…
"Try getting by when they feel they have been taxed enough and pack their bags"
Yeah, they can. Their workers and employees can't, so it is safer to taxe them. Good Old Tories... Patrotism is good only for the soldiers they sent on the path of war, but don't touch THEIR money:laugh4:
Skullheadhq
08-09-2010, 16:51
Back the 19Th Century and the phylanstery movement when nice and generous and compassionate Captain of Industry were building a new model of life according to their vie of Good Behaviour and Morality.
Idea about what theis new old idea will deliver?
If you're going back to the 19th century it will give you a huge colonial empire and make Britain a country where even the poor have money because of the exploitations of colonies. Also you'll be the only superpower in the world with unlimited diplomatic influence, sounds good, doesn't it?
Furunculus
08-09-2010, 20:06
“Millionaires at the head of the Tories... Apparently different to the Millionaires at the head of Labour for some undisclosed reason. Possibly as being a Champagne leftist is OK.”
Yeap. Same people, same policy: I tried in vain to explain it to a colleague… They are going in the same schools, meat in the same dinner and eat at the same restaurants. Probably married each others families… They will not endanger the other member of the family who got a nice position in the City…
There are no more real left, only “soft” Conservative and Conservative.
By the way, if you think I am a Champagne Leftist you are sooooo wrong…:laugh4:
I am a combat leftist. :rifle:
Trained in the Army, the kind who go to war to implement what they think…
I wouldn’t be as nice as the Caviar leftist (or Champagne). They are Social traitors and the bench we had in UK are not different from the all lot…. Nice speeches and probably give some money to charities but full their pockets when they can as shown in the expenses scandal not so long time ago. :hanged:
You wouldn’t like me, you would probably hate me and certainly not even try to patronise me…:laugh4:
But you’re right: What difference did the “new” labour. They implemented what Maggie initiated. Did they build Social Housing? Nope. The minimum wage amount is a joke, the fiscal Paradise still exist for the Rich and even extended, they followed blindly the USA etc…
Like all the so-called Social Democrats they forget their roots and why they were elected. They were bought and spent by their Masters.:shame:
“Then they forced through some more that helped destroy Industry in the UK.”
What destroys UK Industry was the policy initiated by Maggie and implemented by her New Labour followers. The will to make UK a Country of Services around the City and the “delocalisation” to more exploited and less protected workers in the “Third” world did the job. The New Labour just followed and didn’t rectify…:no:
The national Debt is a joke. The results of the Bankers show how much big is the joke.
The Private Sector is responsible for it with its greed, the New Labour helped their Friends with the Public money and now it is business as usual and the Old Conservative are taking the opportunity to implemented the new 19Th Century policy…
And like in the 19th Century it will failed not without social consequence of course on the weakest of our societies.
I don’t see any solutions to be really honest as the so-called Left walk hand in hand with the Right. The speed of the betrayal is so fast that you can’t even see it. And I am decisively too old for a Revolution that is mostly impossible in UK anyway…
I paid more than one month of my Salary to the Council (Conservative) this year. And they want to do less. Well, they increase their Salaries mind you… Not really different from the “New” Labour are they?
So same taxes but less for the money: Privatisation for the Rich to make more money… Good old Tories… We will love them…
And the Big Society: Go to the Past and you know how it will end…
"Try getting by when they feel they have been taxed enough and pack their bags"
Yeah, they can. Their workers and employees can't, so it is safer to taxe them. Good Old Tories... Patrotism is good only for the soldiers they sent on the path of war, but don't touch THEIR money:laugh4:
ah well, it's unlikely ever to fly in france, console yourself with that fact.
ah well, it's unlikely ever to fly in france, console yourself with that fact. Do you read news? The Mafia Boss at the Head of the French Republic knows no shame...
All the same, I am telling you...
Nation and Patriotism is a thing for poor. It help them to endure what the Riches put on them and give them a good target for revenge in the worst case scenario...
The Riches just flew to other countries to enjoy life with their relatives and friends.
Well, the bIg Society, indeed: You want to know the Future, look at the Past. Always worked like this....
Furunculus
08-09-2010, 23:56
i'll cope.
rory_20_uk
08-10-2010, 12:20
The bank "bailout" currently stands as a profit. If the City had done it, you'd of course be lambasting the "Vulture Funds" and how they were preying on distressed companies.
Maggie scrapped industry that had been dead for years but subsidised by the State which led to no innovation, dreadful quality and precious few sales... rather like Skoda and Lada brands for the same reasons.
Currently there is an outcry that students might not get University places... Where is this right to higher education come from? Perhaps if there were some quality control we could have bright, able students working hard and then innovating and helping drive new industries. Like India et al are doing. This might then create jobs that can be done by in essence manual workers.
Minimum wage is a joke. It ensures that there are vast number of industries that can't set up in the UK as it'll never be profitable to do so.
I don't intend to spend my life subsidising the Pension system and Social Security at the cost of my standard of living. I rarely get to appreciate England as I work full time. I might as well live elsewhere and fly in for a holiday.
Social Housing? Oh, I see. I get to save for another 5-10 years to get a starter house - but others need social housing in places such as central London. Although I'll probably never be able to afford to live there on my salary others "deserve" it for a nominal rent.
~:smoking:
Furunculus
08-10-2010, 14:49
in an interesting parallel to the big-society:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,710972,00.html
utterly disagreed, but interesting to witness the contrast in outlook. different social & cultural history = different aims and expectations.
rory_20_uk
08-10-2010, 15:12
Of course, the rate of charitable donations goes down as taxes increase.
I find it odd that they view the state as being the right persons to decide where money goes - but as you point out, perhaps in Germany the money does get better targeted than in the UK / USA.
The tax writeoff is interesting. In the UK the tax that would have been paid goes to the charity. Is it that the tax goes to the individual or am I not understanding it properly?
The article ends by saying that money would be better given to established organisations. The Bill Gates Foundation IS an established organisation...
~:smoking:
Furunculus
08-10-2010, 15:26
The continent would appear to have a fundamentally different view of where the limits of the state should lie, more encompassing than many in Brits would be comfortable with.
They aren't wrong, nor are we right, every government should meet the expectations of its own people, expectations that have been moulded over centuries of shared social and cultural history. I merely provided the link to show the contrast between Anglo/Continental ideas on governance as a parallel to Brenus' horror over the Big Society idea.
Hosakawa Tito
08-10-2010, 23:48
in an interesting parallel to the big-society:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,710972,00.html
utterly disagreed, but interesting to witness the contrast in outlook. different social & cultural history = different aims and expectations.
Here's an article I read awhile back about Warren Buffett's desire and reason to give away much of his fortune. Should Kids be left fortunes, or be left out? (http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-07-25-heirs-usat_x.htm)
When Warren Buffett pledged $31 billion to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation in late June, he rekindled a debate among the rich over inheritance: whether it's better to limit what you pass on and not spoil your heirs, or let them inherit the wealth and build on it. Buffett, 75, has often said that wealthy parents should leave their children with enough money to do anything they want but not so much that they are doomed to do nothing at all.
“Social Housing? Oh, I see. I get to save for another 5-10 years to get a starter house - but others need social housing in places such as central London. Although I'll probably never be able to afford to live there on my salary others "deserve" it for a nominal rent.”
Oh, I see. In order to preserve your right to have better houses than the vulnerable you prefer shantytowns and Reserves for them… Ooops for the Big Society then…
Remind me a Serbian joke about Human Nature: A peasant find a frog and you know, gets 3 wishes with one codicil: All what he will get, the neighbour will have the double:
First wish. Cows. Got the cows neighbour gets double…
Second wish: House. Poof, big house appears. Neighbour gets a Castle.
So he thinks… Then he asks the fairy: Take one of my eyes…
This because we are not only happy for what we have, but as well for what we have more than…
“Where is this right to higher education come from?” Agree and disagree. Not automatic Right to go to University, however right for a good education.
You have to have a balance. Should University only for kids having Rich Parents? But I did work to pay mine…
“Minimum wage is a joke. It ensures that there are vast number of industries that can't set up in the UK as it'll never be profitable to do so.”
That is the idea… The Future is the 19th Century… Shall we allow police forces to shoot at Strikers? Because we don’t have Australia to deport the rebels and the laws and orders breakers anymore!!!
By the way, how possible UK have no more car industries when France still have 3 profitable ones, and we know that the French are always on Strike, have minimum wages and nice holidays? Why England has no more Shipyard Industry? The short view of the like Maggie destroyed the UK industries for short time profit, privatised services to their Friends and Relatives and this now cost more to the State than when national and never work properly…
“Like India et al are doing. This might then create jobs that can be done by in essence manual workers.” Yeah, our future is in sweatshops, underpaid labours and call centres!!!!
“The bank "bailout" currently stands as a profit”: Exactly my point…
“I don't intend to spend my life subsidising the Pension system and Social Security at the cost of my standard of living. I rarely get to appreciate England as I work full time. I might as well live elsewhere and fly in for a holiday.”
Ooooops again for the Big Society Project…
Because that is the essence of it: The Private Sector (You and I) would take from the State the duty of Help and Others from the State, as WE are more efficient.
The problem is you don’t want. You want to keep your money because you work hard for it. You don’t see why you should give money for the fraudsters and scroungers who abuse the system, in fact even if they are not fraudsters. You don’t want to help.
You prefer to know Fancine in the street and Cosette begging in the streets and selling her virginity to a member of the Nobility than to help, as these two human beings you will never meet probably don’t deserve it…Well, as most of the people are like you (and me at some extent) the Big Society idea never worked and that I why it is up to the State to protect the weak and the humble….
So I am with the German Millionaires on this one.
Gerard Depardieux, French Actor, when asked about the taxes he had to pay by a journalist who was expecting the usual “oh, the State take all my money” said this: I ear 100 millions a year. I give 75 to the taxes. I still live better with the 25 left than the families on minimum wages that pay none….
And the Social Fraud cost is part of the Deal. And still cost less than taxes evasion….
rory_20_uk
08-11-2010, 10:08
"Shantytowns" :laugh: No, let's have a system where council houses can be inherited and are for life. Let's make sure that people who can't work are fixed in one place to limit their chances of getting a job (if they wanted to bother with one). I've moved 5 times in the last 6 years and I'm due to move in under a month. Guess why? My JOB. Only now there is a thought that those in council houses with many bedrooms but only have 1 or 2 in them might be reallocated to large families...
Merely as I disagree with your particular system that instantly means begging and prostitution...
When my parents went to Uni, it was free with a grant. Why? less than 5% went. Both my parents were from poor backgrounds so would not have gone lest for this fact. Labour have managed to make it a rich-only system. The Conservative-Democrats are too scared to kill the sacred cow so the monstrosity continues.
Any ideas about how to increase employment? No, best just make comparisons to history. Tell you what - let's just borrow money and that'll make everything better... :dizzy2:
I don't know why the UK car industries managed to do worse than the French. But we managed it. As I say, a mixture of dire quality and dreary vehicles helped buyers vote with their feet... The German, Japanese and American (later Korean) companies all held in private hands took all the business.
IF the shipyards were making ships that people wanted for a profit they'd have flourished. The problem is that other countries can make them just as well and cheaper...Yet your "solution" is for higher minimum wage. Maggie killed zombies, not productive companies.
*Sigh*. I am not prepared to be fleeced to prop up others. I'm more than happy to do my bit - but NOT to see taxes rise for unbudgeted white elephants in the past - with looking forward the only thing is a non-existent state pension and a retirement age of what? 70.
Who said that the Big Society wouldn't have the State to help the weak and humble? Social welfare is still a massive drain with an estimated £1.5 billion in fraud a year (and let's ignore the errors from such a complex system). Odd that you can sweep this under the covers in one sentence.
Let me parody your future... Money for the weak and poor of course. And jobless. Oh, and houses. Best build loads more of those. We can't have people moving out of their communities, so best start purchasing private dwellings to help. State pensions are rather small. Let's up those. Minimum wage needs to be increased. That will help people be better off.
Good. That's all the basics.
Now the easy part. Just need to deal with hyperinflation and the CCC- credit rating. I know! We can send a task force to Zimbabwe to see how they fixed this.
Hang on - most of that isn't a parody.
~:smoking:
rory_20_uk
08-12-2010, 13:24
Here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-10869719) is one example of a grass-roots project which helps all involved.
~:smoking:
Furunculus
08-12-2010, 13:30
awesome idea.
Hosakawa Tito
08-12-2010, 23:40
Here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-10869719) is one example of a grass-roots project which helps all involved.
~:smoking:
awesome idea.
That's what it takes, community involvement and taking responsibility and the initiative to help each other.
“awesome idea.” Yeah, quite new from the XI Century… So, the shopkeepers are becoming the Middle-Ages Churches… We would have just to claim Asylum…
Err, how this with substitute with the Police? Because, as far as I know, shopkeepers still don’t possess the right of Police…
How it will stop an aggressor more than the usual deterrent? I mean, except the Sticker on the window, what is really new, and what will be part of the Big Society?
Don’t take me wrong, I was part a Charities/NGO, so I have an inside view of (and a pretty good idea of what could be a Big Society project) and all was not good.
Individuals or groups will decide ho, when and what to give, on which criteria… No more a common laws but based on prejudices and only the Deserving Poor will get help.
Meneldil
08-13-2010, 08:46
Here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-10869719) is one example of a grass-roots project which helps all involved.
~:smoking:
Laughable.
Basically, the governement is giving a middle finger to its citizens, saying "Well, you know, we might not be able to protect your safety and lessen criminality rates, so why don't you just leave us alone and die silently?", and you find it "awesome"?
As Brenus said, congratulation for copying a millenia old idea. Too bad scums will probably not bow before the mighty power of the Shopkeeper (may his name be blessed).
PanzerJaeger
08-13-2010, 08:50
Individuals or groups will decide ho, when and what to give, on which criteria… No more a common laws but based on prejudices and only the Deserving Poor will get help.
You don't think the state does the same thing, only in a much more clumsy fashion? Also, I don't know the nuances of the French system, but resources and benefits in the US are highly politicized, which leads to structural inequities based on class, race, and even region based on who holds power. Granting more autonomy and responsibility to local governments and organizations - with a certain level of support and guidance from the state - can more quickly and correctly address community issues.
It seems like the US and Europe are running in opposite directions these days. When the Right is ascendent in America, the Left rules Europe and vice versa. While austerity has finally gained traction in Europe, our government is spending like a drunken sailor and adding new, expensive entitlements.
Furunculus
08-13-2010, 10:22
different horses for different courses. i don,t know why bren and men are getting their knickers ina twist, is it fear that another anglo perversion might corrupt their beautiful social democracy?
there are limits to what the state should do, and attempting to breach these limits will make standards of living for future generations worse by accumulating debt and depressing long-term growth not to mention that the endless accumulation of state power to achioeve these ambitions are a threat to what i percieve as english liberrty.
you may not like it, fair enough, you won,t have to live with it.
rory_20_uk
08-13-2010, 10:48
Not surprising that they've concentrated on knocking ideas rather than providing anything else.
~:smoking:
"Not surprising that they've concentrated on knocking ideas" Which are...? Because for the moment the concept is quite empty...
Furunculus
08-14-2010, 12:01
here is an excellent economist analysis of the potentiual and pitfalls of the big-society plan:
http://www.economist.com/node/16791650
Too bad scums will probably not bow before the mighty power of the Shopkeeper (may his name be blessed).
The USA solve that problem by giving the shopkeepers the right to have bear arms.
I don't think this idea hurts, but neither do I think it alone can be a solution to the problem, people outside on the streets would have to stop crimes as well, and that would likely stop a lot of it, or more police present, but just offering somewhere to run to is not of much use to someone surrounded by 5 thugs. :shrug:
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