About Guns... please clarify this

[kaltes]

I never ran into this in the old days when I first bought shogun and jumped on multiplayer but maybe it hadnt gotten out yet. This happened to me yesterday and now some things people are saying are making sense to me, I want to know if the following is true:

I prefer melee-heavy armies, so when I see guns and archers I am happy to line my whole army up and charge en masse. You would think this would work, since when I fight the AI, even 16 musketeers cant force a rout on more than 1-4 units at once. The rest get through and the musketeers break on contact.

However this is the strategy I THINK I have been seeing and it disturbs me greatly:

#1 musketeers line up and whittle you down as you come in, once you get close they retreat and monks come forward to engage you. Not a problem since if you took 12+ melee units you outnumber the monks despite gunfire casualties and a slight morale reduction from the few gun volleys.

#2 the monks hold you in place THEN THE OPPONENT MANUALLY TARGETS YOUR UNIT(S) WITH HIS MUSKETS AND CONTINUES TO FIRE AT THEM DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE IN MELEE.

#3 Somehow, the musketeers do not mow down their own troops (their fire isnt ballistic like arrows, they have to fire THROUGH not above their troops to hit yours) and instead not only kill your troops, but inflict hideous morale penalties, causing a rout in the one unit, which is the beginning of the end.

Now, I am pretty sure this is how it works, and I would like this confirmed with details.

As for beating this hideously unrealistic mockery of a tactic:

#1 (cheesy) counter with 16 monks spread along a wider front. Use monks in reserve to bolster join in and bolster the morale of the part of the line being manually targetted, while all the flanking monks turn the corner and melee the muskets, which puts their shenanigans to an end.

#2 Use high honor yari troops along the front with flanking cavalry. This is what I do, but if the monks are uphill, the guns plus having monks come down the hill at you http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

So am I on the right track or what, if what I am thinking here is true, this crap better get fixed in the expansion. AT the very least the idea of getting shot in the back should kill the morale of enemy units even if the musket code isnt set up to take friendly units into account. (fixing the gun code = hard, simply tacking on morale penalties when the unit youre engaged in is being shot at = easy). Dont you love it how I always give the lazy solution along with the best solution? :P

[Dark Phoenix]

Well you cannot charge straight at guns as they have a morale penalty when shooting at your men. But you have to flank them. The only units that can make it to them are monks or No Dachi. But when they get there there morale is not good. You have to use some tactics in online play and not just charge straight at them.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

I am no hero I just like to hit people in the head. :p

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

I don't know the details, but yes everything is true about the guns firing through friendly units....Yep Magic bullets.

[Koga No Goshi]

This is definitely a problem, and the use (misuse?) of guns in this way is quite universal. I've gotten better at the game only by accepting the fact that basically I can't compete without mass guns, and when it rains everyone seems confused and just kinda throws units at each other. Everyone seems very dependant on muskets.

Not sure what the solution is, but I do know battle lineups are disconcertingly uniform.



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Goshi of Koga
Now we disappear,
Well, what must we think of it?
From the sky we came.
Now we may go back again.
That's at least one point of view.
-Hojo Ujimasa's seppekku poem.

[NinjaKilla]

I don't think it's really misuse, I don't think that it can really be avoided.

Yeah I do find this is a problem and it irritates me. I try to avoid this by choosing 'autumn' and attacking, that way can pick rain. You could say this is abit dastardly (great word) but I think that I am simply exploiting people's over-reliance on guns.

Problem is I don't paticularly like rain - if you're gonna butcher or get butchered, you may as well do it in the sun!

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- Our girls fall for samurai and they'll go chasing after them.
- If the bandits come they'll cut our heads off. We'll worry about the girls later.

From: Seven Samurai

[Steeleye]

check out the 'friendly fire' thread from a couple of weeks ago.

Yes, this is my personal mega-gripe, and I won't start ranting now. Let's just say that I've had to sell up on my principles and start going in with 3 musks in every army now.

Yes, the missile rules make musks far too effective

Yes, the friendly fire rules are awful

Yes, there is no effective way of beating a musk heavy army being controlled by a good player without resorting to musk heavy yourself.

Sigh.

Kyodaispan

[Yoko Kono]

I would imagine the expansion patch will fix this `bug` and the soon_to_be_released_patch will as well for the original STW
I just wonder what will happen to MP then if an army atempts fire a few volley`s thru its monks onto ur army and ends up killing over half his amry.
Will improve the game greatly

[DarkSword]

I love these threads...because to me it seems that everyone is on fair grounds...its just how you use the units at your disposal in battle is the main key.....I am sorry if I say stop crying about what people should and shouldn't do....just have fun....and if someone use a certain tactic then find a way to beat that tactics instead of whine about it....I mean how many time a person can rush you or use a 6 musket line and win....i would admit that you might beat me the first time but i promise if you use the same tactic against me the second time you won't win.......i used to like the musk and monk but I realize they are too easy to defeat....now i vary my army depending on map and opponent...ask koga he used to get frustrated wih my monk and musk....but now he get more confuse....ehehehe.....

[Koga No Goshi]

Yeah, Darksword, how did you get those units of "Female Ashigaru" anyway? New Patch? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

j/k

[DarkSword]

I guess the swim suit in winter was a little over kill ha?...hehehehe

[Kraellin]

if muskets were such a truly overwhelming unit you'd see folks taking 16 guns every time. i dont recommend you try it ;) well, maybe vanya.

K.

[Koga No Goshi]

They're not really an overwhelming force. In a close battle where one guy's guns are up close and the other guys are farther away, it's often the deciding factor though. The technical details like the friendly fire kills could be tweaked a bit but I'm not for taking them out or nerfing them or anything.



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Goshi of Koga
Now we disappear,
Well, what must we think of it?
From the sky we came.
Now we may go back again.
That's at least one point of view.
-Hojo Ujimasa's seppekku poem.

[barocca]

We're not talking about muskets as being the super unit of the game,
we're talking about the outrageous effect they seem to have,
and the current popularity of gun-monk armyies.

muskets by themselves are poppie fodder,

but muskets as support provide a morale penalty to units they shooting at
and a morale bonus (or so it seems) to friendly units they are supporting.

In a 3v3 or 4v4 where there is NO room to manouver facing a 3 to 4 musket army is just plain annoying and boring. You sit still and get shot to bits, or you move in and risk the cascade.

Out of sixty odd 'friendly' battles in the last month, 48 were against gun/monkers.
(i checked my log files)


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DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

[Koga No Goshi]

I agree this gets repetitive. One option I'd like to see for MP games in expansion, but I have no idea if there'll be any such thing, would be for the host to be able to check a box by certain units to "disable" them for that game. That would be good for more than just stopping endless monk/musk games, someone who wanted to do a "true historical" battle with some of the Mongol Expansion units but not every available unit could choose to do so with an option like that.



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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

[Koga No Goshi]

I really hope there's an option like I just mentioned in expansion. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif It would be great to be able to play some archer/melee/cavalry army tactic games without having to intentionally pick rain (and the lag that comes with it).

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif



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Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

[Dark Phoenix]

Well in the expack you can play games with just the new units if I remember reading it correctly.

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DoragonPhoenix of the Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

I am no hero I just like to hit people in the head. :p

[Yoko Kono]

the only thing wrong with guns is that they can fire thru there own friendly units
If this is fixed in the patch then new tactics will have to be devised by these gun and monk players
when aiming at a unit of 60 men while u have 60 men in front of your target and to fire and kill 10 enemies for evry 1 or 2 of urs is wildly unrealistic, as soon as this is fixed shogun MP will be a much more enjoyable and tactical experience

[Steeleye]

hear, hear, yoko and koga.

[Kraellin]

koga,

i believe i suggested something like that in another thread and i wholeheartedly agree with it. gimme options, options, options. i want a 'shogun: construction set' where you can make your own units, modify the look, tweak the parameters, set up your own starting conditions when hosting, and the whole enchilada.

i always hate games that force me into 'historical mode', or even some other mode, but i also want the option to be able to do all of those and to tweak a game how i think it shld be, whether historical, totally weird, fanciful, or whatever.

and just as a side note to some of the references made in the expack forum, perhaps things like these and things like fixing the rout bug are part of the reason for setting back the release date. i know for a fact that we tested and documented at least part of the rout bug AFTER some of the new stuff was already being tested or even finished.

K.