luso ap weapons and autoresolve

[siegfriedfr]

Most luso units with a curved sword (most infantry units) have the ap attribute. Judging how They steamroll the celts and romans, should It be removed?

[Captain Jazzy]

I imagine that this would weaken Luso far to much and make them far to easy to defeat. There AP wepons are whats makes fighting them so difficult and removing it would make them far easy to crush with the Romans or Carthies which shouldnt be the case.

[GMT]

The lusos are way too powerful vs other AI factions though, they usually end up owning every one in europe which isn't historically accurate afaik.

I agree that they should be difficult to conquer but they shouldn't be able to steamroll the other AI factions like they do now.

[Chris_]

If you were to make this change it might stop the Lusos from steamrolling everyone, but someone else will probably do it instead. In long games it always ends up with a few superfactions because of how hard it is for an AI faction to oppose the momentum of another AI faction - if it's all just stats, numbers inevitably win. Humans interfere with this because playing battles instead of autoresolving means that they can defeat superior armies, whereas the AI would just lose. Another issue is that the AI just doesn't stop - it can never have enough territory.

[athanaric]

The lusos are way too powerful vs other AI factions though, they usually end up owning every one in europe which isn't historically accurate afaik.A common problem in my campaigns as well. IMO the cause is that they usually manage to kick out Carthage, which removes the threat from their back - because although the Carthaginian AI does a good job reinforcing their garrisons via ship (you often see Sardinian and Balearic troops in Spain), they never try invasions to take back their provinces in an area where they've completely lost control (e.g. both settlements in Iberia taken by enemies). Tis means the Lusotannan only have enemies in front of them. The only thing that would help would be to mod in another Iberian tribe (most likely the Arevaci) as a faction.

The AP attribute hardly helps them against other barbarians. In fact, the Iberian and Lusitani troops are at a disadvantage in melee against other barbarian factions, who have troops with far better lethality, and little armour (meaning the AP bonus doesn't do :daisy:).

[siegfriedfr]

A common problem in my campaigns as well. IMO the cause is that they usually manage to kick out Carthage, which removes the threat from their back - because although the Carthaginian AI does a good job reinforcing their garrisons via ship (you often see Sardinian and Balearic troops in Spain), they never try invasions to take back their provinces in an area where they've completely lost control (e.g. both settlements in Iberia taken by enemies). Tis means the Lusotannan only have enemies in front of them. The only thing that would help would be to mod in another Iberian tribe (most likely the Arevaci) as a faction.

The AP attribute hardly helps them against other barbarians. In fact, the Iberian and Lusitani troops are at a disadvantage in melee against other barbarian factions, who have troops with far better lethality, and little armour (meaning the AP bonus doesn't do :daisy:).

Altho your argument makes sense, i think you are wrong.

I cut down their money assistance totally in the script, and even tho it delays them, eventually they do conquer all of spain (even if carthage managed to conquer ALL the east coast), and proceed in steamrolling a victorious arverni holding all of gauls+ northern iberia, and push the romani back into campania.

So the problem must be in autoresolve, since they even kick back polybian romani into their homeland.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

It really has everything to do with their location. The fact that they are either allied with Carthage or can easily kick them out of Iberia gives them a solid base where btw, they can recruit factional units in every province. Then its just a matter of beating everyone in front of them while those same enemies have to divide their armies over multiple fronts.

[Ca Putt]

I agree, with lusos it's Location Location Location ;)

nobody keeps them from conquering the rather wealthy(mines) provinces, and already are at a decent size when sallying forth to conquert the civil war strucken and by now upgraded thus better armored Gauls and the outskirts of the romans who are very armor reliant. thus it its probable that the inclusion of an other iberian tribe will prevent them from growing too large.
an EB1 solution would be to add some super eleutheroi in the pyenees but who likes super eleutheroi^^

sweboz often expand a lot because the gauls are too weak and the romans don't seem too interested in germania most of the time, only getai stop their path and sauros keep them in the woods(whereas they can't follow)^^

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Then maybe the solution is to make it 'Location, location, location'?

As in - make it really difficult for the Lusotanns to recruit troops outside of their homeland. Just as with the early Romans. Outside of Spain (except for Ireland) maybe Lusotanns should only get crap, cheap units like levy spearmen and slingers, or maybe even nothing at all so they have to rely on hiring mercs.

That would slow them down once they get into southern Gaul, they'll either have crap armies, small armies, or have to migrate full stacks from Spain. A human Lusotann player will have little difficulty moving stacks from Spain, but the AI will struggle with it.

[Megas Methuselah]

It sucks having to fight armies of slingers, though. :laugh4:

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Then maybe the solution is to make it 'Location, location, location'?

As in - make it really difficult for the Lusotanns to recruit troops outside of their homeland. Just as with the early Romans. Outside of Spain (except for Ireland) maybe Lusotanns should only get crap, cheap units like levy spearmen and slingers, or maybe even nothing at all so they have to rely on hiring mercs.

That would slow them down once they get into southern Gaul, they'll either have crap armies, small armies, or have to migrate full stacks from Spain. A human Lusotann player will have little difficulty moving stacks from Spain, but the AI will struggle with it.

They already do this though. If you look at Luso armies once they start moving through Gaul, they're composed half of Iberian/Lusotanian units and half Lugoae. By the time they reached Eburonum in my campaign most of their armies were generals and Celtic and Germanic levies. They just seem to do a really good job of forming full stacks as opposed to some other factions.

[Cute Wolf]

actually, if they never invaded by Carthies and later Romaioi, Iberians are pretty much capable to build a big empire themself...

I actually prefers in beefing Kart-Hadast's defense and economic value in their Iberian holdings

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

The most historical resolution would be to have a strong Carthiginian presence, and then a, perhaps scripted, Romani invasion..... Or, perhaps the Lusotani ought to be an Eleutheroi 'faction'... (heresy, I know...)

[Ca Putt]

OR an other Iberian Faction ;)

[Olaf The Great]

As Ca Putt said, there will be a second Faction in Iberia in EB 2(Well, I think, I haven't checked in a while), so it will become a similar situation to Gaul,

[Grade_A_Beef]

An even more reasonable compromise would be to give more money to the Celts. I have never ever seen the Gauls annihilate their rival until a foreign faction helps them, in which case they have already lost most of Gaul. Even worse is the fact that I have never seen them even conquer all of their original homelands and become a dominant power. The AI sucks so much with the Celts. The Celts however have a natural edge over the Lusos, with the high defense skill regulars (AP is not as effective,) the lethal longswords, better cavalry versatility, and much much larger recruitment range.

[Moros]

Is lethality accounted for in autobattles though?

[siegfriedfr]

An even more reasonable compromise would be to give more money to the Celts. I have never ever seen the Gauls annihilate their rival until a foreign faction helps them, in which case they have already lost most of Gaul. Even worse is the fact that I have never seen them even conquer all of their original homelands and become a dominant power. The AI sucks so much with the Celts. The Celts however have a natural edge over the Lusos, with the high defense skill regulars (AP is not as effective,) the lethal longswords, better cavalry versatility, and much much larger recruitment range.exeperimentating this. Buffed celts money boost to 30000 and they expand better. Cut down luso money but they still outdo carthage...

[Cute Wolf]

Is lethality accounted for in autobattles though?

maybe no... just take a look at cavalry battle, overhead spear (who had higher base damage), always being favoured, despite in real tests underhand ap hi-lethal lance will win

[Rolling Thunder]

Uh....

Why do sword units have AP?

*Blinks*

[WinsingtonIII]

Uh....

Why do sword units have AP?

*Blinks*

Historically, some swords, such as the Greek kopis, and in this instance, the Iberian falcata, were known for their armor-piercing abilities. In this era, these were generally curved blades, and the shape of blade distributed the weight such that it could deliver a blow with the same armor-piercing force as an axe while maintaining the cutting edge of a sword.

[DaciaJC]

The lusos are way too powerful vs other AI factions though, they usually end up owning every one in europe.



The Karthadastim in my Getai campaign beg to differ ...

https://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p311/Frontline1944/9087.jpg?t=1282177460

Yes, I realize you said "usually." http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/images/smilies/wink.gif

Removing weapon attributes to "nerf" a faction seems the wrong way to go about it, though. As others have experimented, reducing a faction's treasury (or even increasing those of nearby factions) might end up producing more favorable results.

[siegfriedfr]

The Karthadastim in my Getai campaign beg to differ ...

https://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p311/Frontline1944/9087.jpg?t=1282177460

Yes, I realize you said "usually." http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/images/smilies/wink.gif

Removing weapon attributes to "nerf" a faction seems the wrong way to go about it, though. As others have experimented, reducing a faction's treasury (or even increasing those of nearby factions) might end up producing more favorable results.

Yes, as a fix for the luso i simply made it so the money assistance is disabled once they conquered the number of settlements equals to iberia, so they are contained...

Altho, carthage owning them (and even if your map looks favorable for carthage, i've seen luso come back from such odds in the past, kicking an all powerful carthage out) is pretty rare.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

How did you do that? Where is the money assistance file?

Thanks