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Swoosh So
08-21-2010, 04:05
http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/22344

Some presentation and a full shogun2 battle

The Black Ship
08-21-2010, 04:46
thanks for the link. Always have to laugh when you see developers play.

Crazed Rabbit
08-21-2010, 06:10
So, night battles are new to the series? :inquisitive:

Also, fire arrows are upgrades? And used at night, in the rain?

Rock, paper, scissors strategy, and tactics is defined as matching your rock against their scissors.

Lots of talk about the graphics (and they did look nice) but nothing about AI.

CR

Gregoshi
08-21-2010, 07:38
What I liked from the battle video is how long the unit melee lasted. There was time for the cavalry to flank the enemy. They also stated during the battle that the weather will have an affect on combat. Yeah! :thumbsup:

Kagemusha
08-21-2010, 09:10
Thanks for this bit of information Swoosh So!:bow:

Swoosh So
08-21-2010, 16:13
Hrd to take much from the video despite its length, i also was pleased with the duration of the combat of the melee units and was really pleased to see the units retain some sort of formation when they engaged in combat making a nice clean battle line. Really want to see a day battle now to see it in all its glory!

drone
08-21-2010, 16:17
Looks pretty. Not sure about the fire arrows, but it was nice that the main melee took a while to complete. The unit movement lines and fire arcs were a nice touch, were those in NTW?

Swoosh So
08-21-2010, 16:19
yes theyre in ntw, exactly like that infact shogun2 at the moment kinda looks like a ntw mod :o, hard to tell tho because of the night battles you cant really see the detail on units etc.

Monk
08-21-2010, 18:28
They are indeed in NTW, more and more S2 looks to use an upgraded NTW/ETW engine which is not really a bad thing.

By the way, front-paged. Nice find Swoosh!

Alexander the Pretty Good
08-21-2010, 19:24
Can't see anything because of the fascination with night battles...

Nelson
08-21-2010, 19:30
I really hope they donít overdo the rock, paper, scissors thing. For example, if they let sword troops have some sort of inherent advantage over yari troops, that would be incorrect with no basis in Japanese history. If they just let the troops behave as they did in reality all will be well. Units need no artificial advantages or penalties versus one another.

The RPS idea only works in the most general sense. Otherwise we might just as well control little rocks, little sheets of paper and little pairs of scissors and chuck the history.

A Nerd
08-21-2010, 19:39
Can't see anything because of the fascination with night battles...

Perhaps they have some secrets they yet want to reveal!


I really hope they don’t overdo the rock, paper, scissors thing. For example, if they let sword troops have some sort of inherent advantage over yari troops, that would be incorrect with no basis in Japanese history. If they just let the troops behave as they did in reality all will be well. Units need no artificial advantages or penalties versus one another.

Perhaps the RPS is most sound when all units involved are green. Perhaps an experienced yari troop will have an advantage over a green sword troop? I always wanted CA to do something more with green vs. experienced troops rather than just a valor bonus.

Swoosh So
08-21-2010, 19:50
The rps system in shogun is what made it the best of the totalwar series in multiplayer, they should imo keep the base system they had. and try to fit the new units around that.
I think its absolutely critical that they make yari cav poor against swords and monks like they were in the first shogun but make them excellent vs cavalry and faster than any other cav unit.

Tera
08-21-2010, 22:12
That was a very nice demo. I think he had a much higher level army fight against the AI since basically he won the battle with the spear units in apparently hold formation. When the player was ready to rear the enemy line, the battle was already won.

Looking forward to next preview.

Nelson
08-22-2010, 16:13
I think its absolutely critical that they make yari cav poor against swords and monks like they were in the first shogun but make them excellent vs cavalry and faster than any other cav unit.

Why, Swoosh?

Why should yari cavalry be poor against sword armed troops as opposed to any other troops? Was there a battle where katana armed troops annihilated yari cavalry but heavy cav smashed the same sword soldiers? Any basis in fact for this idea? Was yari armed cav actually faster than archer cav?

I know the answer. We disagree about what we want the game to be. Fair enough. But do realize that what you propose makes the game less accurate and some fans want reality to trump fictional abilities.

Sp00n
08-22-2010, 17:33
Apart from being dark it looks great, wish they'd shown a day battle though but nice to see. Also pleased the melee lasted a while.

Tera
08-22-2010, 19:27
Nelson,

The 'justification' for Yari Cavalry being weak against sword/monk infantry but effective against cavalry is that YC are essentially mounted Yari Samurai. Spears beat Cavalry due to their long reach but, just like the infantry version, they are no match for sword-wielding ground troops. While this might not be historically accurate, it is still a valid game rule that makes sense and not simply a 'historical aberration in the name of balance'.

In terms of unit balance, cavalry in STW:MI was perfect:

Heavy Cavalry beat everything except Yari Samurai. Yari Cavalry (same honour/upgrades) usually lost as well, but not before reducing the HC unit below 10-men. This made HC a powerhouse but at the expense of speed and very high cost - excluding Kensai, it was the most expensive unit in the game.

Naginata Cavalry was an extremely popular unit when it was added in the Mongol Invasion expansion. Considerably cheaper and faster than Heavy Cavalry, it still packed a punch and was able to beat most sword units like No-Dachi or Monks. This made it a very 'efficient' unit. Its downside was that HC or YC units easily decimated it.

Yari Cavalry was very weak against any ground unit, but excelled as an anti-cavalry unit. It decimated the very popular Naginata Cavalry, was able to catch those pesky Cavalry Archers and was able to hold a Heavy Cavalry unit down to the last man.

Cavalry Archers lost against any unit except missile forces but using their speed and power properly allowed a skilled user to put incessant pressure on the enemy, often hitting important but low-armor units. A skilled user of cavalry archers ensured victory on the battlefield by first winning the mental battle with the player behind the computer.

The balance between these four units, and the rest, was a key factor in making sure the multiplayer game was always exciting and fun - I hope we see something of the sort in STW2.

O'Hea
08-22-2010, 23:22
Why should yari cavalry be poor against sword armed troops as opposed to any other troops? Was there a battle where katana armed troops annihilated yari cavalry but heavy cav smashed the same sword soldiers? Any basis in fact for this idea? Was yari armed cav actually faster than archer cav?
Because if different units have nothing but superficial differences... they have nothing but superficial differences. This may be 'realistic' in the sense that historical samurai armies were made of mixed formations of individual warriors whose equipment and abilities varied greatly, but this makes for a supremely dull tactical system because most meaningful distinctions between soldiers and units would be effectively random (i.e., uncontrollable by and unknowable to the player). You'd basically be playing Europa Universalis with better visuals.

Sp00n
08-23-2010, 12:03
Why, Swoosh?

Why should yari cavalry be poor against sword armed troops as opposed to any other troops? Was there a battle where katana armed troops annihilated yari cavalry but heavy cav smashed the same sword soldiers? Any basis in fact for this idea? Was yari armed cav actually faster than archer cav?

I know the answer. We disagree about what we want the game to be. Fair enough. But do realize that what you propose makes the game less accurate and some fans want reality to trump fictional abilities.

From terms of MP balance Id like to see the Yari Cav stay as they were, it may not be historically accurate, but if we dont have some sort of balance between the infantry and cav units we'll get another game of one army tactics.
Shogun excelled at varied armies as most of the top players would change thier armies a lot and practice with different setups this is one of the reasons why the MP was so great as you were never quite sure what your oponent would bring.
I agree the first game's balance was pretty good and if they follow that blueprint and put the new units around it then I'll be happy.

Oh and don't forget the foyer :P

Servius
08-23-2010, 16:40
Aren't Yari Cavalry the equivalent of Lancers? So, high charge bonus and shock impact, but no where near the staying power of sword cavalry.

Sword cavalry should have the ability to get stuck in and duke it out. As such, their horses would tend to be heavier and tougher, which usually means slower too.

Spear cav could (and I'd guess would) have lighter, faster horses, like horse archers.

If you leave your spear cav to melee it out with spear or sword infantry, especially if we assume the pattern of smaller cav units relative to infantry units remains, the spear cav should get chewed up. Lancers are made for devastating charges and breaking morale, not melee.

And yes, don't forget the foyer!