Hillary Clinton calls plan to burn Qur'an disrespectful and disgraceful [Archive]

al Roumi

09-08-2010, 09:58

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/08/hillary-clinton-plan-to-burn-quran-disrespectful

Hillary Clinton has called an American church's threat to burn copies of the Qur'an to mark the ninth anniversary of the September 11 attacks a "disrespectful, disgraceful act".

Others in the Obama administration joined the US secretary of state to weigh in against the proposed burning, including Eric Holder, the attorney general, who called it idiotic and dangerous. A state department spokesman called the planned protest "un-American".

I think this is a good move by the US administration. Internationaly, it will help people (including Muslims) understand that the US does not hate Muslims. I think this kind of (toothless) rational state commentary is a good thing.

rory_20_uk

09-08-2010, 10:10

Fragony

09-08-2010, 10:13

Well it is disrespectful, it's also kinda hilarious in a youburnflagsweburnkorans kinda way but that's just me. But American muslims didn't do anything to desverve this imho, it's kinda dumb and unnecesary.

Major Robert Dump

09-08-2010, 10:41

Protests in multiple cities in the Stan now. These people have nothing better to do than be offended.

On a side note, the pastor is facing foreclosure. He said the bank wants all he owes on the property right now because they are punishing him for the burning. Mortgages do not work like that, the bank can't "just decide" entire balance due without some sort of reason. Therefore I presume this whole thing is a gimmick to draw attention to his church and get donations to stave off the debt.

al Roumi

09-08-2010, 11:43

Odd that burning the US / UK flag and effigies in the same countries that have complained is not mentioned.

It's not something that I'd personally do, but I am surprised that the State is getting involved in religious matters.

I think this is seen as slightly more than just a religious matter by many. Critics of the US can point to this kind of anti-Islam stunt as evidence that the US is on a crusade against Muslims.

If asked, I doubt the State Dept or Secretary of State would take kindly to the flag burning, but I'm not sure a flag is actually equivalent to a religious text such as the Qu'ran.

How would the US public, indeed the west as a whole, react to bible burning? Not in the same rent-a-mob way, but I can't imagine it would just be shrugged off.

rory_20_uk

09-08-2010, 11:54

al Roumi

09-08-2010, 12:17

People that can jump from the fact that a small non-denominational church is burning some books to the whole country is on a crusade are either stupider than I thought or even more blinkered.

:smile: I couldn't agree more, but as the "ground zero mosque" debate (never mind western perceptions of all muslims as terrorists) show us, neither is the US (or West) adverse to completely miss-understanding actualities, never mind the influence demagogues can exploit from something minute and (apparently) absurd.

How many jihads have there been against the West in general? Quite a few. Few, if any roundly denounced by Muslim groups.

This isn't a question of quid pro quo, taking that attitude would lead to a pointless contest, escalating in more violence.

This statement is about building a bridge and creating space for moderates in both camps. For too long the extremists, in the west as in the Muslim Ulema, have dominated the rhetoric.

Fragony

09-08-2010, 12:22

How would the US public, indeed the west as a whole, react to bible burning? Not in the same rent-a-mob way, but I can't imagine it would just be shrugged off.

Happens all the time. There is a big boohoohoo-factor with these crybaby's burning the qu'ran, let them have their group-therapy. If muslims are offended; the finger -> face, quid pro quo

al Roumi

09-08-2010, 12:36

Happens all the time.

Really? Show me.

Then explain to me why it should be acceptable behaviour to sink to that level, and why it is a good idea.

Fragony

09-08-2010, 13:17

Really? Show me.

Then explain to me why it should be acceptable behaviour to sink to that level, and why it is a good idea.
Not saying it's acceptable behaviour, a reflex must have kicked in, tricking your mind into seeing things that aren't there. It's for whiners to burn qu'rans they won't find me at their party. Typical case of sure you can but why would you.

tried youtube

tibilicus

09-08-2010, 13:34

America makes me sad sometimes.

Vladimir

09-08-2010, 13:46

America makes me sad sometimes.

I agree. Why is the State Department making public statements against the free exercise of the first amendment?

Rhyfelwyr

09-08-2010, 13:48

Well this is pretty stupid, never mind irresponsible, and will fuel the propaganda machine for the jihadis.

But you just gotta take these consequences if you want freedom of expression, idiots are free to express themselves too. :shrug:

Cute Wolf

09-08-2010, 13:54

the answer here is simple... demonstration (pointless isn't?), and threatening again.... + some USA citizen sweeping

here's the translation :grin:

http://www.jpnn.com/picture/normal/20100905_063609/063609_117526_kutuk_pmbkaran.jpg
Only Khilafah could banish the USA
You burn my quran, you die

http://v-images2.antarafoto.com/gpr/1283510148/peristiwa-tolak-pembakaran-al-quran-48.jpg
Khilafah must stand to protect quran

http://img.antaranews.com/2010/8/hti270810-2.jpg
Kill the quran burner

http://hizbut-tahrir.or.id/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/masiroh27agustus2010-12.jpg
Kill the quran burner (with a child!)

http://hizbut-tahrir.or.id/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/masiroh27agustus2010-13.jpg
Only with khilafah, we can kill the quran burner

http://hizbut-tahrir.or.id/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/img_0094.jpg
http://hizbut-tahrir.or.id/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/img_0093.jpg
http://d.yimg.com/hb/ng/co/antr/20100904/07/95808484-hti-ntb-kutuk-rencana-pembakaran-al-quran.jpg?x=213&y=325&sig=onVY0qhg95XW7t44L1QE0Q--
http://hizbut-tahrir.or.id/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/masiroh27agustus2010-15.jpg
http://image.tempointeraktif.com/?id=43044&width=274
http://beritasore.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Hizbut.jpg
Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill Kill the quran burner (while flying black flag, the traditional islamic flag of war)

OK - OK... stop those silly quran burnin demonstration in USA, here they burnin unused tires, wooden trashes, some cars, and choking entire town with black smoke of those burning.... :furious3:

You just feed the monster named "fundamentalist muslims!"

Devastatin Dave

09-08-2010, 13:58

First off, why is the State department making a comment about 50 rednecks in Florida burning a Quran? This will actually do more harm (which is probably what this Administration wants, Saul Alinsky 101) If anything giving attention to these people legitimizes this and gives this "pastor" the attention he wants. But my other question is why this action? A simple thing as a cartoon can get all the crazies in the religion of peace riled up to a murdering frenzy. This is all foolish. It’s one thing to say rude and outrageous things in a chat room or message board, but what the hell has happened to respect and decorum in the real world. Would I, an anti-Islamic bigot, burn a Quran? Of course not. I keep my hatred and distrust at check in order to live in a civilised society. I wish the muslims and this idiot would do the same....

Devastatin Dave

09-08-2010, 14:10

Really? Show me.

.

http://www.thepajamapundit.com/2010/09/that-quran-burning-thing.html

And I've yet to have taken to the streets and comdemn the muslims to hell or destroyed property or killed anyone.. I feel cheated!!! lol

Fragony

09-08-2010, 14:20

But you just gotta take these consequences if you want freedom of expression, idiots are free to express themselves too. :shrug:

Sums it up. The desperate housewife should just shut up, it's a double-edged sword with no free passes.

edit: uh-oh DD you linked to pyjama's, now it simply isn't true because it ehhhhhhh just isn't, well done. Honestly, that's the best you can come up with when it comes to mutual respect and inter-cultural dialogue?

Beskar

09-08-2010, 14:45

http://www.thepajamapundit.com/2010/09/that-quran-burning-thing.html (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkPWMaNaIM)

That link didn't work for me, but I replaced it with a link that does work and sums up that information source as well.

Devastatin Dave

09-08-2010, 14:58

Thanks Beskar...

Fragony

09-08-2010, 15:01

That link didn't work for me, but I replaced it with a link that does work and sums up that information source as well.

See what I mean DD? You don't have anything that is 100% ok because it's in the New York Times

DO YOU

HA DD you can't handle the truth and are most likely sexually frustrated and probably gay which you project on others and and

Beskar

09-08-2010, 15:02

Ok, it seemed your original link's server overloaded, hence why it wasn't working, don't worry, you don't need to edit your post.

Lemur

09-08-2010, 15:04

As unwise and distasteful as I find burning any book, much less a religious text, freedom of expression is as American as apple pie and closeted Republicans, and there's no getting around that.

That said, I do understand why State is doing a little posturing on this issue. Countering the narrative (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29friedman.html) is important, and an appropriate use of State Dept. resources. It's a bit disingenuous and silly for Vladimir and DevDave to sigh and lament the fact that SecState is commenting on a 1st amendment issue. Would these gentlemen prefer that the framing of this issue be done entirely by Islamist nutjobs? Has Sec Clinton actually threatened any legal action against the Floridian idiots? No? Then it's posturing for effect. Maybe you've heard of that? It's the sort of thing nations do sometimes when they need to direct the flow of an argument.

-edit-

edit: uh-oh DD you linked to pyjama's, now it simply isn't true because it ehhhhhhh just isn't, well done.
When playing your victim card, best to check and make sure that Pajamas Media (http://pajamasmedia.com/) is the same site as Pajama Pundit (http://www.thepajamapundit.com/). You appear to be easily confused by pajamas.

Fragony

09-08-2010, 15:20

Who in their right mind wears clothes in bed of course that's confusing. But at least we agree for a change.

al Roumi

09-08-2010, 15:23

Who in their right mind wears clothes in bed of course that's confusing. But at least we agree for a change.

Indians, I believe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pajamas

Devastatin Dave

09-08-2010, 15:52

HA DD you can't handle the truth and are most likely sexually frustrated and probably gay which you project on others and and

You're making my all hot and bothered.... I'd let you feel my nipples, but Lemur is attatched to them....

Devastatin Dave

09-08-2010, 15:55

It's a bit disingenuous and silly for Vladimir and DevDave to sigh and lament the fact that SecState is commenting on a 1st amendment issue..

I didn't realise it was the Sec of State's responsibility TO comment on a 1st Amendment issue. My point was that this just throws more fuel on the fire when its best to ignore idiots. Isn't that what most people do when they read my rantings? ;)

Tellos Athenaios

09-08-2010, 16:01

Yes but you need to declare you are horny to mark your rant-territory as it were. Course if Sec. had followed your example and declared: “Indebted Christians pleading for donations with a ‘Will burn Qur'ans for food’ sign make me horny” nothing would've been the matter right?

Devastatin Dave

09-08-2010, 16:06

Now that's just crazy talk Tellos. And just because I assist toothless men at tractor pulls with various needs of self gratification doesn't make me any less of a concerned citizen of the United States than Lemur. But i still think that recognising this group of 50 idiots in Florida is going to do more damage than ignoring it and leaving it as a foolish use of the demonstration of one's 1st Amendment rights.

Lemur, see you at the next "meating".....

al Roumi

09-08-2010, 16:29

My point was that this just throws more fuel on the fire when its best to ignore idiots. Isn't that what most people do when they read my rantings? ;)

I'm not sure. CuteWolf's photo album of Indonesia's indignant-family-day-out renta-mob is a helpful reminder that however trivial or idiotic something seems, someone else can exploit it and make use of it. While this story seems minor in the US, it's making massive waves (and has done for a couple of weeks) in Muslim and middle eastern media. In this kind of environment, where the fringes are so loud, ignoring the crazies on the fringe is tantamount to letting them run away with it.

Devastatin Dave

09-08-2010, 16:44

I'm not sure. CuteWolf's photo album of Indonesia's indignant-family-day-out renta-mob is a helpful reminder that however trivial or idiotic something seems, someone else can exploit it and make use of it. While this story seems minor in the US, it's making massive waves (and has done for a couple of weeks) in Muslim and middle eastern media. In this kind of environment, where the fringes are so loud, ignoring the crazies on the fringe is tantamount to letting them run away with it.

I see your point, but at what point do we make every mole hill into a mountain. If you're holding a hammer long enough, everything starts to look like a nail...

rory_20_uk

09-08-2010, 16:48

So...

The West better not do, say or preferably think anything that might offend others. Best we all convert to the most violent, intolerant religion there is, as this will placate them. :inquisitive:

Sod that! We're doing these lot a favour in treating them as equals. They should respect our laws as much as we respect theirs.

~:smoking:

Beskar

09-08-2010, 17:07

I heard of a saying "Don't stoop to their level" and just scold them for being immature.

Looks like some people have some growing up to do.

Devastatin Dave

09-08-2010, 17:09

Fragony

09-08-2010, 17:27

Looks like some people have some growing up to do.

Why don't you dress up all fancy and take a crash-course in the enrichment of my choice. I give you 500 if you tape it full without being harrased, and I naturally expect the same when you do but only 250.

30 minutes

al Roumi

09-08-2010, 17:29

I see your point, but at what point do we make every mole hill into a mountain. If you're holding a hammer long enough, everything starts to look like a nail...

Well first off you would need people or organisations who are legitimately able to challenge the fringes, I guess part of the problem so far has been the lack of them. Then they would have to monitor events and media, responding appropriately to developing stories/reactions etc.

They would also have to not see things as a mole hill. Clearly they aren't to some people, and these are those driving and exacerbating outrage.

I'm guessing your point about the hammer perspective is to do with such a "voice" wading in too often and overdoing its input? Hence my first sentence about monitoring media and seeing what is actually causing issues.

Vladimir

09-08-2010, 17:31

As unwise and distasteful as I find burning any book, much less a religious text, freedom of expression is as American as apple pie and closeted Republicans, and there's no getting around that.

That said, I do understand why State is doing a little posturing on this issue. Countering the narrative (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29friedman.html) is important, and an appropriate use of State Dept. resources. It's a bit disingenuous and silly for Vladimir and DevDave to sigh and lament the fact that SecState is commenting on a 1st amendment issue. Would these gentlemen prefer that the framing of this issue be done entirely by Islamist nutjobs? Has Sec Clinton actually threatened any legal action against the Floridian idiots? No? Then it's posturing for effect. Maybe you've heard of that? It's the sort of thing nations do sometimes when they need to direct the flow of an argument.

-edit-

When playing your victim card, best to check and make sure that Pajamas Media (http://pajamasmedia.com/) is the same site as Pajama Pundit (http://www.thepajamapundit.com/). You appear to be easily confused by pajamas.

Not quite. But thank you for playing.

Beskar

09-08-2010, 17:39

Why don't you dress up all fancy and take a crash-course in the enrichment of my choice. I give you 500 if you tape it full without being harrased, and I naturally expect the same when you do but only 250.

30 minutes

What do you mean by "crash-course in the enrichment of my choice" ? I can't glean anything from that statement.

Lemur

09-08-2010, 17:42

Not quite. But thank you for playing.
Can't play if you won't actually, you know, respond to anything. The moment you make a cogent point I'll be here, ready to take you to the Sex Boxen (http://www.nileguide.com/blog/2010/09/07/drive-in-sex-boxes-may-spread-to-zurich/).

Husar

09-08-2010, 17:55

I just wonder, if those people want to burn qurans and annoy the nutters, why don't they go over to Afghanistan for example and confront those ragenutters face to face?
I don't care if anyone burns a quran or a bible (I'm pretty sure it happens, no matter what you link to), but doing it and even announcing it publicly is just as stupid as going onto the streets with a few hundred or thousand people and demonstrating because someone on the other side of the big ball wants to burn some book. If Allah is not above such things and needs his followers to go and rage on the streets over such a non-issue because he might get self-confidence issues otherwise, then he sounds like a pretty weak god to me. I wouldn't complain if Allah throws lightning onto the quran-burners either though, but why would the almighty need a bunch of rabble shouting around on the streets? Don't they have something useful to do?

Fragony

09-08-2010, 17:57

What do you mean by "crash-course in the enrichment of my choice" ? I can't glean anything from that statement.

It's simple, it's a bet. You are going to parade the streets of my choice in all freethinking fashionydooblydoo style for 30 minutes without getting at least a tiny bit beat up or at least shouted at. I am currently thinking of traditionally jewish, but that would be too easy a win. Gay for fun and giggles.

Devastatin Dave

09-08-2010, 18:16

It's simple, it's a bet. You are going to parade the streets of my choice in all freethinking fashionydooblydoo style for 30 minutes without getting at least a tiny bit beat up or at least shouted at. I am currently thinking of traditionally jewish, but that would be too easy a win. Gay for fun and giggles.

Can i watch?

Beskar

09-08-2010, 18:21

Fragony

09-08-2010, 18:38

If I wanted to do that, I just walk into Moss side looking normal. So no.

So what really, not so sure when it's about your own delicate frame no. I'd take an easy 500 if I was confident about being absolutely right. But you really aren't so sure after all no?

Sasaki Kojiro

09-08-2010, 18:38

I was going to say, these guys remind me of the westboro baptists...checked the wiki and they do joint protests.

I was all set to condemn them and then I scrolled down in the news article and they had a picture of a mob burning they pastor in effigy and burning the american flag, so just... :shrug:

Beskar

09-08-2010, 18:45

So what really, not so sure when it's about your own delicate frame no. I'd take an easy 500 if I was confident about being absolutely right. But you really aren't so sure after all no?

But I am right, and going to some random deprived crime area wouldn't stop that. It would only mean I am foolish if I went ahead and did that. Especially since the guy behind the burning the Qur'an isn't in such a zone and should know better than be immature. Nothing to prove.

Fragony

09-08-2010, 19:14

Nothing to prove.

Why do it then, all that idealism is opium for the elite. Used to be communism, now it's multiculturalism. Because ducks are fat (free usage of Martin Amis)

Beskar

09-08-2010, 19:16

Why do it then, all that idealism is opium for the elite. Used to be communism, now it's multiculturalism. Because ducks are fat (free usage of Martin Amis)

Nothing to do with the ethnic minorities since the majority of them are white. It is pretty much common-knowledge that poverty depressed areas have high crime rates and I simply don't want to go into one, especially with a "flashy suit" and a camcorder as it would be pretty much the same as writing "Mug Me" on my back which can be seen from over a mile away and I doubt you want to do the same in the dutch equivalent. Infact, I wouldn't ask you to do it, because I wouldn't want you ended up getting hurt because of my own actions.

Also, it isn't "opium for the elite" as idealistically I would get rid of such areas or provide heavily funding to regenerate them, dealing with the sources of the problems. Because I see a piece of moldy bread it doesn't mean I have to eat it, when I can simply avoid it, replace it or get rid of it.

Major Robert Dump

09-08-2010, 21:15

government officials got involved as a damage control measure because the story got international attention well before the feds weighed in. Afghanistan has tv, radio and internet, believe it or not.

I have a prediction: Taliban and/or Haqqani or other anti-coalition people will desecrate (or at least report the desecration of) the qoran in afghanistan, then blame it on US troops celebrating "burn qoran day" typical IO warfare. They intentionally do more than a dozen things forbidden by the qoran, from homosexuality to targeting children, so what is one more sin?

al Roumi

09-08-2010, 22:42

So...

The West better not do, say or preferably think anything that might offend others.

You'd think that is certainly what those driving the frenzy would like as a minimum. In fact, they'd probably rather the west's nutters keep it up, so they have more to work with and more support to command.

PanzerJaeger

09-08-2010, 23:01

Burning Qur'ans just brings these people down to Muslim levels of crudity and incivility.

Xiahou

09-08-2010, 23:24

Sasaki Kojiro

09-08-2010, 23:55

It's insensitive and antagonistic- but it's their right to do it. Kinda sounds like what people were saying about the NYC mosque thing doesn't it?

There's been countless desecration of Christian symbols and I've never heard the Secretary of State or the AG speak out against it. And I've certainly never heard them tell news outlets that the patriotic thing to do would be not to cover it. This reminds me of the Mohamed cartoons all over again. You have people making a huge deal out of others exercising their rights only because the group likely to be offended contains a sizeable minority of violent extremists.

It's a pr thing. The went with the "they have the right, not going to speak on the wisdom" line for the mosque, on this one they do speak on the wisdom. The idea is that this sort of thing drums up support for the taliban. Can't say what good their condemning it will actually do.

Lemur

09-09-2010, 00:06

It's insensitive and antagonistic- but it's their right to do it. Kinda sounds like what people were saying about the NYC mosque thing doesn't it?
I would hesitate to equate building a church with burning a bible. Both are protected buy the 1st amendment, but they are different. Likewise, both burning a Koran and building a mosque are protected, but not equivalent.

It's a pr thing. [...] Can't say what good their condemning it will actually do.
If by "they" you mean SecState, my impression is that she's making a small and probably ineffective attempt to counter the narrative (http://belowthebeltway.com/2010/04/26/radical-islam-and-the-narrative/). Would we rather she didn't?

Xiahou

09-09-2010, 00:40

I think the best response would have been something along the lines of "We don't care what a few dozen irrelevant nobodies do, as long as they're not breaking any laws."

And repeat it every time a reporter asks about it. They're irrelevant, speak only for themselves, and are none of our concern if they obey the law.

Much like the mosque, the administration seems to be keeping the issue on the front pages with their comments rather than defusing it. :shrug:

Beskar

09-09-2010, 01:02

If the Media simply blacked out these articles, it would simply make the crazies just look like crazies.

"They burn Koran at churches?"
"huh? what are you on about?"
"die infidel crazy crazy"
"What idiots."

Ignorance is bliss, afterall.

Devastatin Dave

09-09-2010, 01:33

Much like the mosque, the administration seems to be keeping the issue on the front pages with their comments rather than defusing it. :shrug:

its what this administration does best....

Lemur, no matter how you slice and dice the mosque being built, you cannot deny that the main purpose of many of the mosques built around the world have been as a reminder of an Islamic victory. I know you are doing your best to stand up to the American liberal's pet religion, but you can't deny there are similarities between these idiot radical attention seekers trying to burn qurans and the idiot radical attention seekers trying to build a mosque.

Lemur

09-09-2010, 01:35

Again, if burning a book and building a place of worship seem like equal actions to you, then cool, you're making sense. Otherwise ... not so much.

P.S.: My pet religion is Zoroastrianism. Get it straight.

Seamus Fermanagh

09-09-2010, 01:46

What some folks won't do for their 15 minutes.....

The administration is exactly correct in this -- deplore it, encourage them to forswear it, but take no action. In addition, this administration has as much freedom to speak on this issue as do these book-burners.

al Roumi

09-09-2010, 12:18

We had a thread on the mosque issue before, don't want to rehash it but:

Lemur, no matter how you slice and dice the mosque being built, you cannot deny that the main purpose of many of the mosques built around the world have been as a reminder of an Islamic victory.
So what, people did stuff in history? The avowed purpose of the Cordoba house is NOT a victory statement, it is trying to build some sense of harmony -patching over the damage 9-11 did to Western views and relations with Islam. 9-11 IS NOT A VICTORY FOR ISLAM.

I know you are doing your best to stand up to the American liberal's pet religion, but you can't deny there are similarities between these idiot radical attention seekers trying to burn qurans and the idiot radical attention seekers trying to build a mosque.
I see more similarities between those decrying the mosque being built, the pastor wanting to burn Qu'rans and those wanting the death of any who burn Qu'rans.

I think the best response would have been something along the lines of "We don't care what a few dozen irrelevant nobodies do, as long as they're not breaking any laws."

And repeat it every time a reporter asks about it. They're irrelevant, speak only for themselves, and are none of our concern if they obey the law.

Much like the mosque, the administration seems to be keeping the issue on the front pages with their comments rather than defusing it. :shrug:
You would do well to read Lemur's link on what "the narrative" is. My guess is you have no idea how popular and seductive a view of America it is with people in the rest of the world.

This is a rather bigger issue than just some nutters in florida, let alone the US' flipping constitution.

Meneldil

09-09-2010, 13:29

the answer here is simple... demonstration (pointless isn't?), and threatening again.... + some USA citizen sweeping

Indonesia looks like a charming place. Remind me to never go there.

rory_20_uk

09-09-2010, 13:38

Indonesia looks like a charming place. Remind me to never go there.

:laugh4:

My thoughts exactly.

~:smoking:

ICantSpellDawg

09-09-2010, 14:15

Burn that Koran and build that NYC mosque as soon as possible. These Muslims need to grow a pair and so do we. That scumbag Obama sealed the deal when he threatened American troops over the individual action of one man in Florida. The blood will be on the hands of the guy who burned a book? Really? It's not on the hands of the people who would kill others because someone burned a book? Are you sure? I like Petraeus, so even though he said essentially the same thing, it didn't bother me.

The mosque should go up because they are free to build it and the book should burn because we are free to burn it. Obama should focus on ruining our economy and leave the ruining of everything else to the American people.

Sarmatian

09-09-2010, 14:59

rory_20_uk

09-09-2010, 15:13

I wholeheartedly don't consider anyone an equal who demands people die over the burning of a book.

~:smoking:

Major Robert Dump

09-09-2010, 15:56

wow triple post

Major Robert Dump

09-09-2010, 15:56

make that quad post

Major Robert Dump

09-09-2010, 16:02

multi post slow webby

Fragony

09-09-2010, 16:18

lol just slightly OT, the imam that craves dialogue that has nothing to say to the majority of the Americans warns that putting the roflgotya-mosque somewhere else might be a matter of national security. How familiar.

rory_20_uk

09-09-2010, 16:27

Burning it is offensive to Muslims as they view intentional damage to the Word Of God as sacrilegious.

He's a Pentecostal who views the Koran as a work by the Devil, luring souls away from redemption.

Anyone see middle ground here?

~:smoking:

al Roumi

09-09-2010, 16:29

rory_20_uk

09-09-2010, 16:41

OK I chose poor wording. I'd imagine that 90%+ of the population of the world is in the middle ground.

Does anyone see a way of reconciling these two?

~:smoking:

al Roumi

09-09-2010, 17:10

OK I chose poor wording. I'd imagine that 90%+ of the population of the world is in the middle ground.

Does anyone see a way of reconciling these two?

Personaly, I don't think they should be the priority. The issue is how everyone who isn't already: 1) wanting to burn Qu'rans or something equally nutty 2) Wanting to kill people who do burn Qu'rans -or equally nutty.

Extremes always have and always will exist. They can be dealt with if they remain extremes. The risk is polarisation of the middle ground, i.e. more people becoming "nutty" (to continue the above terminology), and hence the "conflict" ratcheting up as extremes become more powerful -with the eventual consequence of much broader and deeper violence.

The centre needs to reject these fringes. That means decrying what this pastor is doing. It means also decrying what those people in indonesia (and across the Islamic world) are demanding: violent reaction. It means the Western and Islamic centre grounds dampening their respective psycos.

The problems so far are that 1) western governemnts don't like to/can't do what is effectively propaganda and 2) many Islamic states' (often autocratic but also quite secular) responses are altogether counter-productive (violence and repression).

Major Robert Dump

09-09-2010, 17:15

Wait. What?

Obama is threatening the troops by warning of potential violence? What a scandalous, twisted form of logic.
Obama is keeping the story in the news by talking about it, like the Mosque? I must be living on a different planet, because I could have sworn international news agencies were doing that already, including Saudi-owned Fox news and Murdoch-backed Saudi news.

Some of you Obama-can-do-no-right-ever-ever-no-matter-what people crack me up.

If Obama was not commenting, I have a feeling you would still think he was wrong. As a CNC of troops in war it is his duty to comment on an action for some reasons some of you may not have considered:

1 - The end of Ramadan coincides with the September 11 attacks, which has serious implications in a war zone where we fight muslims and

2 - the largest parliamentary elections in the history of Afghanistan happens on the 18th and the largest joint NATO-Afghan operation to date is being conducted to try to make this election not become a bloodbath. The NATO troops are letting Afghans take the lead and will provide reinforcements and logistical assistance, but US troops will be no where near polling stations or ballots unless something goes down. In other words, the bad guys have thousands of soft targets in the form of polling stations and ballot convoys. This is an enormous operation, they are pulling cooks from the kitchen and pogues from the desks. For the two weeks leading up to the election and a week after -- that is all we are doing.

This burning issue was an issue over here long before Obama or Clinton weighed in on it. NATO leadership are going nuts trying to make ROE when dealing with Afghans asking us about the issue because it is happening all over the place and every day, and many of the questions are coming from the ANA, ANP and ABP, the people we fight side by side with. Radios and televisions are common here. Quite frankly, I am getting tired of having to explain to locals that the pastor is not indicative of all Americans. And even if many Americans share his sentiments, most of those with that opinion are not trying to keep the peace in Afghanistan, so I have no problem sugarcoating the US public's view . But to suggest that this burning would not have had any effect on the situation here had the Prez not weighed in is just retarded.

While it is this guys right to burn the quran and I support that right, it it the job nonetheless of the President to condemn the act but not act on it. Besides, it sounds like local authorities in the form of the fire marshall will shut it down anyway. So why all the outrage at Obama? Because he is Obama.

What is truly rich is that politicians -- especially Republicans regarding the Iraq war -- will not hesitate to use soldiers as PR shields to block criticism of their strategy or decisions. "How dare you say so-and-so when our troops are in harms way!" I suppose they were threatening the troops too? But when the shoe is on the other foot and a Democratic President says something -- additional motives and all -- about troops being in danger because of someones actions, well, we just can't have that now can we because by god we don't like Obama. Kind of pathetic. I mean, the guy was bound to do something right eventually, and this may be it.

Sasaki Kojiro

09-09-2010, 17:18

What is truly rich is that politicians -- especially Republicans regarding the Iraq war -- will not hesitate to use soldiers as PR shields to block criticism of their strategy or decisions. "How dare you say so-and-so when our troops are in harms way!" But when the shoe is on the other foot and a President says something -- additional motives and all -- about troops being in danger because of someones actions, well, we just can't have that now can we because by god we don't like Obama. Kind of pathetic. I mean, the guy was bound to do something right eventually, and this may be it.

:yes:

The mosque should go up because they are free to build it and the book should burn because we are free to burn it. Obama should focus on ruining our economy and leave the ruining of everything else to the American people.

"Should" doesn't follow from "free to". There's lots of things that people are free to do, that they shouldn't do. When someone is doing something that they are free to do but shouldn't do, it doesn't seem appropriate to invoke rights. We should just say "they shouldn't do that". Only if someone is trying to force them not to does it make sense to invoke rights.

Fragony

09-09-2010, 17:19

What you call the middle ground is no more than western projection. There is active and passive, covers it much better. There is no moderate islam.

Lemur

09-09-2010, 17:23

There is no moderate islam.
Did you ever notice that all of your posts on the subject of Islam boil down to this point? I mean, you rephrase and vary the tune a bit, but it always comes down to The Clash of Civilizations. I wouldn't call your perspective Islamophobic, but "monomania" might fit the bill.

According to charismatic pentecostals there is no such thing as moderate Christianity. And yet it exists. According to the ultraorthadox there is no such thing as moderate Judaism. And yet it exists. According to Al Qaeda and Fragony there is no such thing as moderate Islam. And yet it exists. (I know, I know, you give yourself an out by declaring that those moderates aren't really Muslims, which is a bit of rhetorical head-fakery (http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/) that you would scorn and dismiss were it deployed against you. Yet you tolerate this sophistry when it serves your Islam Bad monomania. Lazy on your part.)

-edit-

Nice to see an ISP doing the right thing (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/09/rackspace_dove/):

Hosting company Rackspace shut down the Dove World Outreach Center's website last night, because it broke its acceptable use policy.

Pastor Terry Jones is enjoying his 15 minutes of fame thanks to plans for an International Burn the Koran Day to mark the anniversary of 9/11. Jones also plans to burn copies of the Talmud.

Jones's website had disappeared by this morning, UK time. Videos of Jones ranting are still available on YouTube - but haven't been updated this year.

Dan Goodgame, a spokesman for Rackspace, told the Reg: "We have over 100,000 customers and do not track what each of them has on their websites. But we do respond to complaints. We had a complaint that this site was promoting anti-Islamic hate speech, we investigated and agreed that it breached our acceptable use policy.

"We got in touch with them both by phone and email to warn them to remove the content, or find another hosting company. They did not remove the content so at midnight last night we shut them down."

Goodgame said the analogy was of someone shouting racist abuse in the street - they are free to do so. "But they may not come into my hardware store and carry on the abuse in front of my customers and friends - if they do so I have the right to ask them to leave."

The ranting, red-nosed pastor told CNN Rackspace's action was an attack on his freedom of speech but would not stop the event going ahead.

His tiny church has already lost half of its 50-strong congregation in response to his stunt, which is likely to be attended by more journalists than supporters.

ICantSpellDawg

09-09-2010, 18:34

I think that they should do it in this instance - both build the mosque AND burn the Koran. Obviously the constant overreaction to insignificant things should tell us that they need to be desensitized. I wish that everyone would burn the Koran, all day everyday. If Chrsitians threatened the life of people everytime those people stepped on a cross I'd most likely call for the same thing.

The fact is - We used to. The west is now desensitiezed to blasphemy to the point where they recognize it, but avoid calling for the death of blasphemers. No problem. Once people can handle the idea of blasphemy it becomes pointless to blaspheme. I look on Christian attackers as those who attack the meek, and attackers of Islam as those doing a courageous act that needs to be done. When the Islamic world can swallow their hatred and meet blasphemy with a cool scolding finger - that will be the day in which blasphemy becomes cruel and pointless.

Build the mosque, westernize and take it easy when people you don't know burn your Koran. Call them uneighbourly and I'll side with you - threaten their life and I'll side with the burners. too all Muslims that are at that level currently, I apoligize for the insensitivity and please forgive us. To those who would kill our men, women and childremn abroad and where they sleep - You're all invited to my bathroom to see my new mohammad shaped commode and for a Koranic BBQ afterwards. Sorry for the horrible spelling.

Devastatin Dave

09-09-2010, 20:30

Anyone see middle ground here?

~:smoking:

Maybe Barry Obama can hold another beer summit...

Devastatin Dave

09-09-2010, 20:34

, but it always comes down to The Clash of "Civil"izations..[/indent]

Found the difference!!!! :laugh4:

Devastatin Dave

09-09-2010, 22:45

Well, its been called off. Good. Now Muslims could go back to having murderous rage over Teddy bears named Muhammed, cartoons, or an exposed ankle. All is right in the world again....

Goofball

09-10-2010, 00:13

I agree. Why is the State Department making public statements against the free exercise of the first amendment?

Because it's their First Amendment right?

Ha!

Beskar

09-10-2010, 00:21

I think the Islam should have another Saladin. He was highly respected in the West, even during the Crusades.

Fragony

09-10-2010, 09:18

Isn't the imam who wants nothing but dialogue, who is so concerned about terrorist attacks if he has to build his mosque somewhere else, the next best thing

Hax

09-10-2010, 11:37

I think the Islam should have another Saladin. He was highly respected in the West, even during the Crusades.

Who, Mehdi Karroubi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehdi_Karroubi)?

al Roumi

09-10-2010, 12:10

I think the Islam should have another Saladin. He was highly respected in the West, even during the Crusades.

Yeah, Salladin, is seen as great in the East for being a good ruler, but also for giving the west a good pounding. He also re-united a great swathe of Muslim countries into a single kingdom - explicitly one of AQ's objectives, building a pan-muslim Caliphate. Carefull what you wish for, but I agree that someone or a movement to counter the extremes in Islam would be fantastic.

BTW, Saddam Hussein self styled himself as a new Salladin, hence his attempted conquests/wars of Iran and Kuwait... Also, there are plenty of "moderate" leaders of Muslim countries, for example Hosni Mubarak -but they are not exactly popular figures (seen as western stooges and nepotistic) with their populations, never mind religious groups and movements.

Edit: I should also add that many Muslim countries are ruled by a more or less secularised elite, who are themselves the target of much of AQ's ire. They make poor western allies however as their activities are usually to protect their own interests, not helping those lower down the pile in their countries.

rory_20_uk

09-10-2010, 12:20

al Roumi

09-10-2010, 12:20

What you call the middle ground is no more than western projection. There is active and passive, covers it much better. There is no moderate islam.

I actually have to agree with you here frags. Being a matter of faith, and "surrender" to islam being a key tennet of the Muslim faith, most self-identifying Muslims would not describe themselves as "moderate". It would be like saying: I am a Muslim-lite.

So it's true that "moderate" is at best an objective, or as you said, western label. One that is actually liable to offend if used directly with Muslims -as indeed anyone who believes they follow the true path of any faith.

The thing is, there are plenty of Muslims who don't support Al Qaida and who don't think the answer to people insulting their faith (symbolicaly burning holy books or drawing insensitive cartoons of prophets) is violence, as well as those who regrettably do. I'm not sure if your active/passive alternative captures the differences in conscious (active) beliefs held by Muslims.

Major Robert Dump

09-10-2010, 13:01

This guy has ties to Westboro Baptist Church.

The end of Ramadan has people hopped up on Allah, and the elections are in 7 days. The timing for this could not be any worse.

And now people are dying

Seamus Fermanagh

09-10-2010, 13:01

The West then needs another Alexander the Great (or Alexander the Devil - another East / West divide there) for pretty much the same thing...

Salladin mainly helped wars. I fail to see how that helps matters.

~:smoking:

I suspect that the poster who brought up Saladin (not sure of the Arabic spelling) was, at least implicitly, hoping that Islam would be championed by someone honorable. Facing an opponent who is honorable, one is less likely to have to cope with atrocities etc. Obviously, the historical record suggests that Saladin doesn't quite match up with the idealized Saladin and wasn't a candidate for sainthood, though neither were very many (any?) of the crusaders he faced.

rory_20_uk

09-10-2010, 13:08

Considering that the 4th Crusade only got as far as sacking Constantinople, I think this is an understatement.

I'd not like a repeat of the "children's crusade", but the "chronically unemployed benefit scrounger's" crusade would have my blessing assuming that so many people with stress / lower back pain make it the whole way.

Honourable is all well and good when one is winning, but few are prepared to keep this up when they're loosing (the ends always manage to justify the means).

~:smoking:

Seamus Fermanagh

09-10-2010, 13:10

tibilicus

09-10-2010, 15:04

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11251850

A nice assortment of images featuring the crazies.

Rhyfelwyr

09-10-2010, 16:15

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11251850

A nice assortment of images featuring the crazies.

The weren't all crazies, one of the pics was of Pakistani Christians who were presumably more attempting to show Muslims that not all Christians are like this Florida church.

Although I don't know why the second pic shows people burning an effigy of Obama? :laugh4:

Tellos Athenaios

09-10-2010, 17:20

I suspect that the poster who brought up Saladin (not sure of the Arabic spelling) was, at least implicitly, hoping that Islam would be championed by someone honorable. Facing an opponent who is honorable, one is less likely to have to cope with atrocities etc. Obviously, the historical record suggests that Saladin doesn't quite match up with the idealized Saladin and wasn't a candidate for sainthood, though neither were very many (any?) of the crusaders he faced.

Salah ad din got in the good books mainly because eventually he was seen as credible successor to Nur ad din with a more pragmatic view towards moral issues. So he is idealized a lot, much like Richard “Lionhearted” is.

Louis VI the Fat

09-10-2010, 18:20

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11251850

A nice assortment of images featuring the crazies.You know, part of me wonders whether we shouldn't burn a truckload of korans and use it to heat a pigsty. The shock might make 'em snap out of it, like a slap in the face of a hysteric.

Why should we indulge this mass hysteria, rather then try to end it?

tibilicus

09-10-2010, 19:15

I guess it at least shows the difference between the western world and the Muslim world. One rouge pastor, representing a fringe movement plans to burn a Quran, the Muslim world reacts with hostility, burning American flags and holding demonstrations with slogans promising death to westerners.

Meanwhile, the burning of western flags, the persecution of non-Islamic religions in some Islamic countries and plots to harm westerners seems to happen on a daily basis, and yet we don't even flinch. I guess in another 500 years they might be ready to come out of the dark ages..

Hax

09-10-2010, 19:23

the Muslim world reacts with hostility, burning American flags and holding demonstrations with slogans promising death to westerners.

So you think that the burning of flags and the like is not limited to a crazy fringe movement in the Muslim world? Are you honestly going to tell me that hundreds upon thousands upon millions of Muslims from Morocco to Uzbekistan and from Siberia to Ghana all burn flags and chant insane slogans?

Please, be realistic.

tibilicus

09-10-2010, 19:45

Tellos Athenaios

09-10-2010, 19:47

Well on the one hand it is certainly true that there are many more muslims spread over many more countries than there are “Westerners”. But on the other hand you can't deny that there's a dissonance between the predominantly “Western” countries and the predominantly “Muslim” countries (and please excuse my poor terminology here). It's not just the difference between Western and Muslim though, as anyone with half a mind can observe that the number of riots or protests among “Western muslims” is actually quite limited.

I think I am with Lemur when he points at the Narrative.

Beskar

09-10-2010, 20:22

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11251850

A nice assortment of images featuring the crazies.

Why did they use the White effigy for Obama and a Black one for Terry Jones?

Tellos Athenaios

09-10-2010, 21:12

They were mindful of some Americans' sensibilities regarding Obama's skin colour.

Meneldil

09-10-2010, 21:34

So you think that the burning of flags and the like is not limited to a crazy fringe movement in the Muslim world? Are you honestly going to tell me that hundreds upon thousands upon millions of Muslims from Morocco to Uzbekistan and from Siberia to Ghana all burn flags and chant insane slogans?

Please, be realistic.

Problem is, the crazy fringe seems to represent a good portion of the population in these countries. While here, it's only a handful of nutjobs trying to enjoy some fame, you have thousands of people protesting from Morocco to Indonesia, making death threats and burning stuff. So yeah, I guess you're the one not being realistic here.

It's not just the difference between Western and Muslim though, as anyone with half a mind can observe that the number of riots or protests among “Western muslims” is actually quite limited.
Yeah, western moderate muslims are more into beating up people who don't respect the Ramadan.

Hax

09-10-2010, 22:47

Problem is, the crazy fringe seems to represent a good portion of the population in these countries. While here, it's only a handful of nutjobs trying to enjoy some fame, you have thousands of people protesting from Morocco to Indonesia, making death threats and burning stuff. So yeah, I guess you're the one not being realistic here.

Eeh..not really. Not in the Maghrib, at least. Have you ever been to an Arab country?

HoreTore

09-10-2010, 23:58

I for one freakin' LOVE the fact that the same right-wingers who wanted Julian Assange's balls for putting American soldiers and their allies at risk praises this guy even though he's putting American soldiers and their allies at risk...

Consistency is for the weak and liberal!! Thinking makes our brains hurt!

Problem is, the crazy fringe seems to represent a good portion of the population in these countries. While here, it's only a handful of nutjobs trying to enjoy some fame, you have thousands of people protesting from Morocco to Indonesia, making death threats and burning stuff. So yeah, I guess you're the one not being realistic here.

Oh come on. Extreme right(and left)-wingers are on the rise throughout Europe. The haters were beaten into submission following WW2, being compared to the nazi's has been so feared in Europe that people have kept well out of the public light. Our lack of hateful demonstration isn't a lack of hate, but rather shows our fear of being compared to Hitler.

But, as time goes by, we begin to forget the gas chambers, and looky; hate is once again on the rise. Jobbik, with their own brown-shirt milita, is the third largest party in Hungary, Gert Wilders may get a role in the dutch government(or has, fearing a Belgian situation, I stopped paying attention after a week...), Sverigedemokraterna may get a key role in Sweden, Le Pen is rebuilding in France, etc etc.

There was no Hitler in Arabia, they don't have the fear of showing their hate down there.

And anyways, if you want to have a look at Europeans rioting and looting, you don't have to go further back than Greece....

Louis VI the Fat

09-11-2010, 00:27

Eeh..not really. Not in the Maghrib, at least. Have you ever been to an Arab country?I seem to remember Meneldil's been to la Mosson once. :book:

/nvm

Tellos Athenaios

09-11-2010, 04:13

And anyways, if you want to have a look at Europeans rioting and looting, you don't have to go further back than Greece....

Or enjoy Strike Season in France, while it lasts. <_<

ICantSpellDawg

09-11-2010, 05:52

I think Assange is the man and that they should burn the book. Politicians like to use US troops for their own purposes. I don't know many soldiers who are complaining about hajjis getting ancy and threatening them, they do that anyway. If invading their countries hasn't squeezed out the last drop of radicals then I'm not sure what burning a book would do. We crap on their religion and culture everyday, you can't hate someone more than trying to kill their men women and children, so I'm not sure how an enemy engulfed in flames can become more engulfed in flames. Either they are the muslims that get the freedoms or they are the muslims that don't get it. If they don't get it they most likely have booked their tickets to blow us up in advance of the book burning. If they do get it then they can brush it off just like we brush off the far left putting our crucifixes in a pot filled with urine. Anyone threatening the mosque builders need to learn the same lesson.

Not burning the book would be a mistake of the highest order. Treat them the way they demand to be treated; like violent children who hate us.

I don't have the slightest problem with muslims, I have a problem with people who take life too seriously and kill people because they don't get the joke.

Meneldil

09-11-2010, 09:57

Eeh..not really. Not in the Maghrib, at least. Have you ever been to an Arab country?
http://fr-fr.connect.facebook.com/group.php?gid=120931057959207&v=wall
A facebook group of young moroccans calling to burn the Bible and the US ambassy. Took me 5 seconds of google-fu to find it. They're probably not going to do anything but rage over the internet, but if you think the Maghreb (especially Algeria) is somehow more moderate than Pakistan, well, you got it all wrong.

As for going to an arab country, why would I? 40% of the population is of arab descent in my city. That's good enough. Marseilles, 100km from here, is the fourth biggest arab city in the world, population wise. I can see how they're screwing everything up here without having to fly over the Med. I might go to Tunisia, simply because I have some good Tunisian friends and because this country seems to be the only light in an ocean of backwardness.

There was no Hitler in Arabia, they don't have the fear of showing their hate down there.
There's a dozen of Hitler wannabe in the Eastern world nowadays. We just never beat them into submission. Since the 19th century, the area going from Egypt to Indonesia have hosted some of the most racist, antisemit and violent people the world has ever known. Wonder why all christians are leaving the East? Why Jews are a rarity there? Yeah, because they've been pogrom'd since the mid-19th. Long before Israel or the "Clash of Civilizations" existed.

As for the rise of the extreme-right in the Western world, it does not surprise me in the slightest. If a country hosts a sizeable number of no-good-doers, who surprisingly all happen to be of the same ethnical background, then racism can only rise. That's sad, but that's the only realistic outcome of 30 years of uncontrolled immigration with no assimilation policy.

Now, will you point me to the last protest during which thousands of these neo-nazis called for the death of someone and burnt effigies of people with their home state's approval?

Or enjoy Strike Season in France, while it lasts. <_<
I don't know if you're kidding or not, but comparing these protests to the strikes in France or the riots in Greece is completely innacurate.

Fragony

09-11-2010, 10:22

But, as time goes by, we begin to forget the gas chambers, and looky; hate is once again on the rise. Jobbik, with their own brown-shirt milita, is the third largest party in Hungary, Gert Wilders may get a role in the dutch government(or has, fearing a Belgian situation, I stopped paying attention after a week...), Sverigedemokraterna may get a key role in Sweden, Le Pen is rebuilding in France, etc etc.

How could we forget, every time someone expresses a shred of doubt about uncrontrolled influx of people who can read nor write we are reminded of them. What is on the rise is yeahrightism, no immigrants are attacked, the morally superior gutmensch who lives in 100% white neighbourhoods and puts his children on 100% white schools just gets the finger more often when they call for prayer, they aren't used to that and get hysterical. Can't speak for Hungary and France, but here the multicultural ideal is just kaput.

HoreTore

09-11-2010, 12:03

no immigrants are attacked

Militias have been created with the specific aim of beating up minorities in Italy and Hungary so far, more are sure to follow.

And Frags, I live in Drammen, the city in Norway with the highest percentage of immigrants.

Now, will you point me to the last protest during which thousands of these neo-nazis called for the death of someone and burnt effigies of people with their home state's approval?

Does Kristallnacht sufice?

Tellos Athenaios

09-11-2010, 12:26

I don't know if you're kidding or not, but comparing these protests to the strikes in France or the riots in Greece is innacurate.

Course I am. This riposte connected to the edite portion above.

Fragony

09-11-2010, 12:50

Militias have been created with the specific aim of beating up minorities in Italy and Hungary so far, more are sure to follow.

Perhaps there but not here, in Italy it was never gone really. France is worrying though, le Pen is the real thing, but the rise of the right in Northern Europe is nothing to worry about. There has never been a racist murder in the Neds it just doesn't exist, what does exist is deep contempt for the multicultural left, you can file Wilders and his voters there. From what I gathered that is also true for Scandinavia, pussycats compared to the others you mentioned. We are swifting from the makable society to the pragmatic, it's good for everybody certain taboo's are broken instead of them holding us hostage.

HoreTore

09-11-2010, 12:54

Perhaps there but not here, in Italy it was never gone really. France is worrying though, le Pen is the real thing, but the rise of the right in Northern Europe is nothing to worry about. There has never been a racist murder in the Neds it just doesn't exist, what does exist is deep contempt for the multicultural left, you can file Wilders and his voters there. From what I gathered that is also true for Scandinavia, pussycats compared to the others you mentioned. We are swifting from the makable society to the pragmatic, it's good for everybody certain taboo's are broken instead of them holding us hostage.

There have been plenty of racist murders in Scandinavia, the murder at Holmlia is the first that pops into my head.

A negro killed for nothing other than being a negro. And the skinhead murderer was awarded 250.000 NOK by an old resistance fighter for "his great effort in fighting immigration".

Fragony

09-11-2010, 13:09

There have been plenty of racist murders in Scandinavia, the murder at Holmlia is the first that pops into my head.

A negro killed for nothing other than being a negro. And the skinhead murderer was awarded 250.000 NOK by an old resistance fighter for "his great effort in fighting immigration".

Not saying it doesn't happen, but there is no structural problem with racist attacks. If it does become a problem, who is to blame really, only those who think you can change human nature; but if you drop 100 people on an island with 50 wearing red and the other 50 blue it's going to be trouble. And that is just a shirt, not a different cultural background.

HoreTore

09-11-2010, 13:21

Not saying it doesn't happen, but there is no structural problem with racist attacks. If it does become a problem, who is to blame really, only those who think you can change human nature; but if you drop 100 people on an island with 50 wearing red and the other 50 blue it's going to be trouble. And that is just a shirt, not a different cultural background.

No, as I said earlier, the extreme right(and the extreme left as well, but that's for another thread) is down with a broken back because of Germany's pounding in WW2.

But we've been animals before, and in all likelyhood we'll become animals again, and I'm guessing sooner rather than later.

Fragony

09-11-2010, 22:10

No, as I said earlier, the extreme right(and the extreme left as well, but that's for another thread) is down with a broken back because of Germany's pounding in WW2.

German army was defeated that's a pretty clinical afair in the way of things. Can we please be honest about the holocaust being a european event. It's madness but it happened ALL OVER EUROPE, and nobody needed that much encouragement.

HoreTore

09-12-2010, 02:47

German army was defeated that's a pretty clinical afair in the way of things. Can we please be honest about the holocaust being a european event. It's madness but it happened ALL OVER EUROPE, and nobody needed that much encouragement.

Of coursen it was a european thing, and that's the reason the extreme right has been down all over europe, not just in Germany.

As to the guy above who mentioned "hitler wannabes"... Yes, they've been all over the place. But what made hitler special was (1) that he put his plans of extermination into practice and, most importantly, (2) that he was utterly destroyed. Not just his person, but also his nation, his people, his organization and his ideology. That is the reason why the extreme right(national socialism) is shunned in europe, and why, for example, monarchy isn't, even though we've seen plenty of monarchs as evil as Hitler.

Fragony

09-12-2010, 05:50

The holocaust is something so grotesque, we are all probably still in shock, it can't really be compared to anything so any comparison is moot imho, while fun to do it has nothing to do with any ideoligy. WW1 killed the age of optimism that was the rise of nations, and WW2 destroyed any reason to be optimistic about civilisation at all, we lost confidence and that translates in a down-with-us mentality. That manifests in odd ways if you ask me we are getting hypersensitive trying to piece it all together bitesize into something we can understand. An exercise in futility if you ask me, making multiculturalism the most destructive force of them all, it's projection of the unimagionable.

edit: must admit that this is freaky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbestwVMBcI&feature=player_embedded our Geertje is absolutely right but these people are kinda scary imho seem to be looking for a leader, better to not wear these pants

a completely inoffensive name

09-12-2010, 10:33

Once again the Obama administration fails to represent America. We hate Muslims (the fact we elected one is a fluke since he lied to everyone about it) and we can use our freedom of speech to express it. There are no moderate Muslim countries and if there are we dont want their support anyway, since their religion is pretty much the most evil on the planet. If these crazies can't handle our freedom and start killing more of our soldiers because of it, then so be it they do the same thing so we must fight their fire with our own fire. I'm going to continue supporting our troops by expressing my right to provoke these evil people into showing their heads on the battlefield so our troops can mow them down and continue executing Obama's failing strategies since it's his war now.

Fragony

09-12-2010, 10:44

Stop whining the world has no interest in your deeper emotions and consequent logic, even your neighbours don't and they are really nice people

a completely inoffensive name

09-12-2010, 10:50

Stop whining the world has no interest in your deeper emotions and consequent logic, even your neighbours don't and they are really nice people

Seeing how the world would be destroyed by the freedom hating terrorists out there by now if it wasn't for us, you Euros should do well to listen to us.

Btw, America has a much larger and effective charity system then any European country, you guys just have your poor suck on the nanny state government until you are all in Greece's shoes. So I guess you could say America is the nicest country in the world, much nicer then "I have to wait 6 months for a MRI scan because my fellow citizens are foolish Marxist socialists" Canada.