Question:I don't think the Carthage's reform is described quite well.

[Edouward]

I think the leader of the Carthage's reform is Hannibal,and he reformed his army by rearmed them with the weapon that they took from Roman army,and adopted roman formation.Because this reform happened during the 2nd Punic War,so the effect should be Carthage could recruit some "Hannibal's roman legion" in Taras,Rhegion and Capua,not in Africa,because Hannibal didn't get too much supplies from Africa.
I don't know whether it's right.

[Lazy O]

You should know the romans adopted their formation from the samnites, and their equipment was celtic, both cultures fought with hannibal. Many punic units are equipped with celtic armour after the reforms

[Edouward]

I think it's after that reform that the gauls' equipments were upgraded to roman equipent to standardize the equipments.

[Lazy O]

I dont understand what youre saying....

Rome used to follow the traditional greek mode of hoplite warfare.

When Rome strolled along samnite territory they realized that the samnites formation was better and they adopted it. This is the maniple formation.

When rome got wtfpwned by the celts they realized their equipment was inferior and adopted celtic chain and shields.

So technically, "Roman equipment" is actually celtic equipment.

Carthies were also following closely on the hellenic model whilst theyre auxilary/mercenary/wutever fought in their native gear.

During hannibals invasion many punny and libyan soldiers ditched their armour and weapons in favour of Romano/Celtic Equipment which is what the reform represents.

And a scripted reform will not decide the formation you use.

[Edouward]

Thanks a lot,this is the first time I know that I know Roman formation comes from the samnites .
But I have 2 questions:
1.Gladius came from Iberians，isn't it?
2.The punic reform is mainly about the celts in hannibal's army in the beginning,because when they joined hannibal's army,they had all kinds of equipments,and that isn't good for commanding(Maybe thst's also the reason why Marian reformed the roman army,and abolished the three lines).So Hannibal chose to rearm them with roman equipmet that they took by defeating romans.And after he crossed the Alps ,the percentage of Iberians and libyans(and punnies didn't like to be soliders,there were very little punnies in the army,just enough to take the officers' positions) lowered all the time,and when he left Italy,I think the majority of his amy is Celts and Bruttians.And during the 2nd punic war,he got too little supplies from home,so Africa is quite less involved in this reform.But in the game Africa is mainly involved in this reform.

[Lazy O]

It was mainly Libyans that reformed, the rest stayed as they were.

The gladius came from the Celtiberi, a celtic tribe living in iberia, most iberians used the Falcata.

[gamegeek2]

The Celtiberi were not a tribe. Celtiberi is a general reference to a specific group of Iberian celts, around the upper Douro region.

[Lazy O]

Thanks :) I always thought they were a tribe living around numantia :D

[Ludens]

Thanks :) I always thought they were a tribe living around numantia :D

There were several Celtiberian tribes, and one of them (the Arevacci) did indeed live around Numantia. I suspect they will be a faction in EB2.

[Zarax]

The "Punic Reform" didn't happen in Italy.
We all know about Polybius and Livy saying about punic troops "arming themselves with roman equipment" but the line in itself needs to be put in context.

In reality Hannibal's lybians were already "reformed" when he took them out of Iberia and for a good reason.
"Standard issue" Lybians were armed in a similar way to the punic civic infantry, which means an hoplite-style kit.
We also need to remember that these lybians were at least in part Hamalcar's veterans, who spent around 20 years in Iberia fighting iberian troops (the same guys that would give Rome more than one headache), which considering the terrain is quite unsuitable in the aforementioned gear, quite like the Romans against the Samnites.

So what we have here is troops adapting to iberian warfare which is quite closer to the roman one and in the process adopting some roman equipment.
It is likely that many lybians were dual purpose troops, able to fight both in a close order formation and in looser iberian style, making them a powerful and flexible tool.

Fast forwarding to 218 Hannibal leaves Iberian with a troop mix composed of:

- "African" Lybian infantry (relatively fresh troops recruited and trained in preparation for the expedition)
- Iberian infantry (armed and fighting already "in the roman manner")
- "Iberian" Lybian infantry (veterans inherited from Hamalcar and Hasdrubal, hardened and trained in iberian warfare, quite likely to fight in a similar way)

We know very well what follows, Hannibal crosses the alps, adds celt troops to his army and wins two battles with the romans.
What follows and is told to us is just standard procedure for the winners, aka taking the spoils.
Being veterans it is normal that Lybian and iberians gets first choice of battlefield loot, the most expensive piece being armour they naturally pick that followed by shields that are still in good shape and are similar to the ones they are used to.

To prove this point we should remember that Hasdrubal's troops at Metaurus are also reported to be "armed in the roman manner" and as we know he didn't exactly have an unbroken string of victories against the romans to afford the same loot as his elder brother.

That said, the punic reform in game is made to represent the growing celtic and iberian influences over the punic army after the 1st punic war, as well as the need to punic generals to have a more efficent army against Rome itself.
In EB2 the reform has been reviewed and enriched so expect a broader (and subtler in some aspects) change overall.

[Edouward]

Thanks a lot.Your answer is very helpful.

[Lazy O]

is made to represent the growing celtic and iberian influences over the punic army.

:2thumbsup:

Funny why MANY people only view carthage in contrast to rome and not as a seperate state.