The Swedish election

[Shibumi]

My first post in the backroom, so play nice people...

Anyway, Sweden just had its election, and all the votes were just counted and published.

This election has been historical for two reasons:
1. For the first time in umptish years the socialists/Socialdemokraterna have lost two elections in a row, showing a more general shift in the political climate.
2. For the first time, a anti-immigration party got voted in, The Swedish Democrats/Sverigedemokraterna - now at 5,7% - well above the 4% threshold to enter parliament.


My thoughts on this?

First of all, the formerly oh so socialistic Sweden has followed the general right wing trend in Europe. Society at large has become more cold, and more people vote with their wallets. Part of the right wings success in Sweden is possibly due to the sitting governments handling of the financial crisis. Sweden came out of it with head held high and sound finances compared to most of the rest of Europe, showing that the right wing could handle the economy in a responsible way.

Another reason for the rights success this election might well be the fact that the left wings candidate for prime minister is commonly disliked. A lot of former leftist voters cant see themselves voting for her. The fact that she is a woman might have had some impact too, although in my eyes probably slim, as Sweden has come a long way of acknowledging the abilities of women.


So, the Swedish Democrats then. The reason why they made it in to parliament is caused by 3 main factors:
1. Fear of muslims.
2. Ghettos and general immigration problem.
3. The fact that no other party even acknowledge Sweden has an immigration problem.

This again follows the general trend in Europe, in fact, Sweden is one of the last countries to get a anti-immigration party voted in.

It will be interesting to see how the debate will change now Sweden has a anti-immigration party, as before this political line had no space in the public debates in the different forms of media. I think this might very well open up the flood gate so to say, and it is not unlikely that this part will double its size till the next election now they have a voice in the public space.


The election in numbers
(Seats in parliament)

Right wing:
The Moderates - 107
The Center Party - 22
The Liberals - 24
The Christian Democrats - 19
All in all: 172 seats

Left wing:
The Social Democrats - 113
The Left - 19
The Green Party - 25
All in all: 157

Others
The Swedish Democrats - 20


This is more interesting than some might think, and will create quite a fuss.

As you might see, none of the blocks (left or right) has enough seats to get in power (have more than 50% of the seats). One might think that this could easily be solved by joining up with The Swedish Democrats, but, none of the other parties will collaborate with them, alienating them completely from the political scene (freezing them out, playground style).

So there are a few possibilities as to how this will end.

1. The right wing will try and get The Green Party on their side. This is pretty unlikely though, as The Green Party has very much been campaigning with the left. Switching side might be political suicide, as they will lose a LOT of their voters in coming elections.
2. The left wing will get one of the right wing parties to switch, this is even more unlikely, for the very same reason.
3. The right wing will govern without being in majority, being forced to haggle for every proposition. This would be a hellish situation for them, and it would make them (indirectly) dependent on the anti-immigration party they have sworn not to get support from.
4. Call for re-election. The right wing, as the biggest block, now has 3 months to sort this mess out. If it is not fixed in 3 months, a re-election will be held. This might well happen, although it is in no ones interest, save the anti-immigration party, who then would get to campaign as any other party, with a whole other set of funds (most of the debates are held in the state controlled television, and only for parties in parliament, so The Swedish Democrats have been excluded up until now. Also, as a party in parliament you get access to the state funds for campaigning).


All in all, an interesting situation! How this gets sorted will have a huge impact on Sweden's future. I will try and keep you all updated.

Me? I voted for The Swedish Democrats. I am no big fan of them, but I do believe we have a immigration problem, and they are the only party to address it. I guess I mainly voted for them to get the question of immigration into the political debate, rather than any fondness for their politics.

[Fragony]

Surprised the SD did so poorly. But it's good they made it in some questions can't be ignored. Next elections are going to be more interesting

welcome to the backroom by the way

[Shibumi]

Am not sure they did so poorly. Sure, 5,7% isn't a landslide, but in the election 2006 they only had 2,9%. So I guess it depends on perspective, you can see them as "only" getting 5,7%, or you could say that they doubled their size.

Also remember that this is in Sweden, the political debate is mainly done in state controlled media, and what isnt state controlled is usually tagging along the bigger channels regardless. So, for a party completely shushed down to get more than one vote out of twenty is rather well done.

And as mentioned, this is the beginning, they will probably grow in size and support now they are sitting in parliament and can get their issues discussed properly.

Thank you for the welcome :)

[Fragony]

As long as the other parties are too leftist to understand that you can't have a welfare state and mass immigration and claw out the eyeballs of those that do SD is going to be in safe spot. Our equivalent has become the biggest party in the polls at least, it helps that debates are broadcasted here, they simply don't have an answer and the godwins are getting boring, it's the only thing they know but such moral blackmail just doesn't work anymore. Pleased to see Sweden has a decent ant-immigration party, we don't want scum like Front National or BNP

[Ironside]

Pleased to see Sweden has a decent ant-immigration party, we don't want scum like Front National or BNP

We don't. Their integration policy is self declared non-existant (since the current one is poor) outside that immigrants should assimilate fully, several of the mandate competing members are racists, got nazi funding+connections (originated as a nazi party, now gone "clean"). All other policies are based on that kicking out the immigrants is going to give wast amount of money and that improving the Swedish proudness and morality will solve the rest. Basically as soon as you get them outside that thin layer of patina, they drop from a anti-immigration party to something worse.

And the rest of their politics is not exactly much to cheer for either. For starters, more christian conservative than the Christian democrats, general tax cuts and increased nationalisation of companies.

Basically they are lye to cure a sour throat.

[Fragony]

I can kinda sympathise with them having no solutions, the rest of them never had a problem, bit much to ask for. No reaction at all is a bit much to ask for, but they certainly don't sound as bad as previously mentioned party's, more like populists rather than extreme right.

[CountArach]

Welcome to the Backroom :bow:

Also remember that this is in Sweden, the political debate is mainly done in state controlled media, and what isnt state controlled is usually tagging along the bigger channels regardless. So, for a party completely shushed down to get more than one vote out of twenty is rather well done.
You seem to be confusing state controlled with state owned. State media in Sweden (and indeed throughout the Western World) is simply subsidised by the government as opposed to being actively controlled by them. As such to claim that there was a systematic attempt by the media to shut them out of the debate on behalf of the govermnet of the day is warping the truth. Could it be that they were excluded from public debate because their ideas are simply worthy of a lunatic fringe?

[Strike For The South]

Start exporting your wimmenz

[Louis VI the Fat]

So Sweden has followed the example of Belgium and the Netherlands.*

Once the world's most stable societies, rock solid social-democracies ('more or less'), they are now all firmly destabilised by an irresponsible electorate. Populist, volatile (a single voter may swap from Maoist to Christrian Democrat to Extreme Right over the course of three election cycles). I blame the demise of the great ideologies.
It will prove to be near impossible to form a government in any of these countries. They are now in effect ungovernable.

*And somewhat the UK. The UK is still governable, because owing to its electoral system, only three parties gained any meaningful amount of seats, and the other seats mostly allied to larger parties or abstain. Even so, the UK too has now got a hung parliament.




And muslims muslims muslims...
I am so sick and tired of European public debate being singularly obsessed by Muslims. Lord knows I'm no friend of the multicultural society, but there are other subjects too.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Start exporting your wimmenzOh, but you can just go to Sweden and rape any blond woman you want, with impunity.


So says the Swedish Fascist Party Amnesty International: http://www.thelocal.se/19124/20090428/


Sweden has gone from lowest on the scale of sexual violence to the very highest in Europe. The whole world dreams of blond Scandinavian girls, and predatory foreign men have now turned Sweden into some sort of Eastern Congo for rape statistics.

[Strike For The South]

So Sweden has followed the example of Belgium and the Netherlands.*

Once the world's most stable societies, rock solid social-democracies ('more or less'), they are now all firmly destabilised by an irresponsible electorate. Populist, volatile (a single voter may swap from Maoist to Christrian Democrat to Extreme Right over the course of three election cycles). I blame the demise of the great ideologies.
It will prove to be near impossible to form a government in any of these countries. They are now in effect ungovernable.

*And somewhat the UK. The UK is still governable, because owing to its electoral system, only three parties gained any meaningful amount of seats, and the other seats mostly allied to larger parties or abstain. Even so, the UK too has now got a hung parliamen

Meh, such is life. What is there left to talk about in Sweden.

-No forigen policy to speak of
-Everyone agrees on health care
-Everyone agress on all social issues (gays, abortion, etc)

If that was the case in America I would've started taking potshots at Mexicans circa 2005



And muslims muslims muslims...
I am so sick and tired of European public debate being singularly obsessed by Muslims. Lord knows I'm no friend of the multicultural society, but there are other subjects too.

Like Gypsies.




Oh, but you can just go to Sweden and rape any blond woman you want, with impunity.


So says the Swedish Fascist Party Amnesty International: http://www.thelocal.se/19124/20090428/


Sweden has gone from lowest on the scale of sexual violence to the very highest in Europe. The whole world dreams of blond Scandinavian girls, and predatory foreign men have now turned Sweden into some sort of Eastern Congo for rape statistics

Young drunk women are vunrable?!?!?!!?!?

TO THE LAB THERE IS WORK TO BE DONE.

[HoreTore]

Hopefully, Sveigedemokratarna will be ignored for the next 4 years. If not, you're all welcome to join the rest of the Swedes who have fled over the borde to us these last four years, because of Moderatarnas "hugely succesful economic policy"... I find it utterly hilarious that whenever the conseervatives take control in Norway, we flee to the other side of the border. When they take control in Sweden, you do the same.... :clown:

And CountArach, you're wrong about state influence on the media, as he was talking about SVT(our version, NRK, is the same), which isn't a subsidized company, but a completely state owned and controlled media. All theyir money comes from the state, other sources of income are in fact banned. The CEO is politically appointed by Riksdagen. Their programming guidelines are made in Riksdagen. Any major changes are decided in Riksdagen. It is not simply a case of a harmless subsidy(though other media in sweden gets just that).

Though, it could be argued that it isn't so much state controlled as Labour controlled....

Louis, you disappoint me. The rapists who get away are usually the ethnic swedish kind, the infamous nachspiel rapist. Ie. The one the woman knows, it might be a good friend or even a boyfriend. In these cases, it's extremely hard to find someone guilty, it's usually word against word as violence is rare.

The rape cases where women are raped on the street are extremely rare(the kind whe foreigners are the majority), always reported to the police, almost always solved and the rapists is always found guilty. Women are dumbere than usual when the subject of rape comes up, as I always point out to my female friends; they shouldn't fear being raped when in a dark alley at night, they should be worried when they're having a beer alone at home with just me. They are scared when the odds are next to nothing of a rape happening, and they feel as safe as the bank when they really should worry about rape.

Meh, human nature...

Interesting side fact: what group is in the majority in womens crisis centres?

Foreign women.

With ethnic scandinavian husbands.

[drone]

I find it very disturbing that the Pirate Party did not get enough votes to get in Parliament, even though the election was held on ITLAP Day. Shiver me timbers... :no:

[CountArach]

And CountArach, you're wrong about state influence on the media, as he was talking about SVT(our version, NRK, is the same), which isn't a subsidized company, but a completely state owned and controlled media. All theyir money comes from the state, other sources of income are in fact banned. The CEO is politically appointed by Riksdagen. Their programming guidelines are made in Riksdagen. Any major changes are decided in Riksdagen. It is not simply a case of a harmless subsidy(though other media in sweden gets just that).
Wow, that caught me off guard. Also: the Internet lied to me.

[Fragony]

Absolute rubbish about the rapes Horetore

[PanzerJaeger]

Good for the Swedish Democrats. Ignoring them will only broaden their appeal and enthuse their supporters to turn out next election.

[Lord of Lent]

Good for the Swedish Democrats. Ignoring them will only broaden their appeal and enthuse their supporters to turn out next election.

I agree. Just give them the respect they demand. The "underdog position" will only gain them more support/votes.

[Fragony]

After a bit of research not so sure about these guys anymore, think Ironside is right about them. Probably more extreme than they pretend to be, certainly more extreme than our flaming mozart

[Shibumi]

First of all, a small update:

The other political parties are spending their time with an advanced game of "pass the grenade". The grenade would be The Swedish Democrats (SD henceforth), and the detonation would be a possible re-election.

Basically, they pass SD around trying to make it some other parties problem, and no one wants to be seen as being the cause for a re-election. At the same time, no one is ready to make the political sacrifices needed to avoid a re-election.

Or to put it short, damned if you do, damned if you don't.



Fragony, you are right of your analyzis that the other parties spend their time with emotional arguments and Goodwin's. These efforts gets more and more bleak as SD comes with facts and figures.


Ironside, your comments seem very biased, to say the least. Have you actually read SDs political program? I assume you are Swedish? If you have read up on them, and not just read socialist media, I would welcome a discussion about their politics with you. A more elaborate one.


Countarach,
You seem to be confusing state controlled with state owned
As HoreTore said, mate. The government and the state media is not just in bed, they are siblings and in bed, creating a nasty situation best not to dwell upon ;)


Louis VI the Fat, some of the rape statistics are caused by the irresponsible intake of immigrants, sure. For sure, assault rape and gang rape is close to 100% committed by immigrants, mainly from ME-A. However, your statistics does lie a little bit, as you must also count the rise of feminism in Sweden, and medias campaign in the earlier this decade to have women report abuse. Rape is a hard crime to track, and I think some of the statistics can be explained by the fact that swedish girls are more inclined to go to the police, compared to in other countries. Sure immigration has caused an escalation in rapes, but what I would like to point out is, just how big is very very hard to track.

With this said, an African man is still several hundred pro cent more likely to commit rape.




Will come back soon when I have mroe time and answer more fully :)

[HoreTore]

Louis VI the Fat, some of the rape statistics are caused by the irresponsible intake of immigrants, sure. For sure, assault rape and gang rape is close to 100% committed by immigrants, mainly from ME-A.

Assault rapes account for like 10 rapes per year. They are indeed quite irrelevant when discussing rape.

I remember the "rape-wave" in january 2008. The media was in a frenzy, there was like 2 pages every day discussing the horrible rapes and how women should act in order to avoid them. How many rapes were committed? I think it was 4. Over a period of 2 months.


People don't get raped on the street, they get raped when they're having a coffee alone with a male friend.


Absolute rubbish about the rapes Horetore

Oh dear heavens! What a persuasive argument!! Of course, I now see the errors of my ways, please ignore everything I've said.

[Fragony]

awwwwwwwwwwww nasty, SD website is hacked and 5700 names put online. Police already said that SD members won't get protection from the antifa when they have a meeting, don't underestimate what the post-war resistance is capable of when they are all drugged up. That is how I know the red machine, system-lackeys and mob rule, long live the freedom of 100% ok speech [insert that Churchill quote]

@Horetore, you probably know it's bull, doesn't mean you have like it of course but you can't just decide that rape by the enrichers of Swedish culture is extremily rare. And they are rarely caught because the victims are too afraid for revenge.

[HoreTore]

Even our right-wing loonies (http://www.abcnyheter.no/node/98421) won't touch 'em with a ten-foot pole.

Our resident fascists, however, loves 'em (http://www.frie-ytringer.com/2010/09/17/derfor-krysser-jeg-fingrene-for-sverigedemokratene/).

[Shibumi]

Assault rapes account for like 10 rapes per year. They are indeed quite irrelevant when discussing rape.

I remember the "rape-wave" in january 2008. The media was in a frenzy, there was like 2 pages every day discussing the horrible rapes and how women should act in order to avoid them. How many rapes were committed? I think it was 4. Over a period of 2 months.


People don't get raped on the street, they get raped when they're having a coffee alone with a male friend.



Oh dear heavens! What a persuasive argument!! Of course, I now see the errors of my ways, please ignore everything I've said.

Maybe in Norway. You also have way-y-y-y-y less immigrants.

We do not have statistics on reported assault rapes as such, the closest I could find was rapes outdoors.

Outdoors in 2009, we had about 1000 cases. That is just counting reported rapes (excluding attempted rapes) - outdoors - against women - in one year.

Check it out yourself, you can download the full rape statistics for 2009 (http://www.bra.se)

[Fragony]

Nah it's the same in Norway http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

Also lol@sidefact by the way Horetore, these women sitting there are import brides and not of ethnic but of import, what the planet are you from, naturalised =/= ethnic, good thing someone helps them.

[HoreTore]

Maybe in Norway. You also have way-y-y-y-y less immigrants.

Nonsense. You have a little more, I believe we have around 7% and you have around 10%. Excluding all of you losers(70.000 I believe) who come into our country, taking all our jobs because your nation is so poor after your four years of conservative rule. DURKA DURR!!


We do not have statistics on reported assault rapes as such, the closest I could find was rapes outdoors.

Outdoors in 2009, we had about 1000 440 cases. That is just counting reported rapes (excluding attempted rapes) - outdoors - against women - in one year.

Check it out yourself, you can download the full rape statistics for 2009 (http://www.bra.se)

I did. And I call lie again.

An outdoor rape isn't an assault rape, an outdoor rape is a rape that takes place outside a house, something quite different. And you happily discounted the fact that there were 5937 reported rapes in 2009 - only 440 of those were committed outside.

Then you can add in that assault rapes are always reported to the police, and as only 5-10% of the rapes are reported to the police, the black numbers belong in the friend-rape and pedobear category, neither of which are dominated by immigrants.

This report is simply more proof that the place you're most likely to get raped is at home, having a beer with an ethnic Swede you already know.

The report was quite clear on one thing though: during the period of 1995-2004, assault rapes(Överfallsvåldtäkter) went down.

[Shibumi]

outside rape, girl, below 15y of age -278
outside rape, girl, 15-17y of age - 197
outside rape, woman, 18+y of age - 440

278+197+440=915

Those are the numbers I draw from the statistics, sure you didnt miss some field matey? True, when I said "about 1000" I just did a quick skim, I was not so far off the mark though, certeanly closer than your 440.

You are right that 5937 rapes were reported all in all during 2009 all in all (men and women). You are also right that not every outside rape is an assault rape. However, we have no figures published on assault rapes, so as I already said, outside rape was closest I could find. Just how many of the 1kish outside rapes are assault rapes I do not know, but most def more than the 10 you claimed.

And yes, I agree, most rapes are commited when they both know each other. IE, husband raping wife.

Your logic is skewed though, when you say girls are more likely to be raped by a native Swede. Sure, you are right, given native swedes are 90% of the pop. Still doesnt change the fact that an African immigrant is several hundred procent more likely to commit rape than a native swede. Get my point?

However, it seems ludicrous to dig in to the rape argument, I am unsure why Louis brought it up.

We can end that part of the discussion with saying that immigrants are more likely than native swedes to rape, but we are unsure as to how much more unlikely as we dont have the numbers.

The reason I am against massimmigration such as the one we have in Sweden is not because of the rape statistics, but because of econonomical reasons (as well as crime). Not to mention we could spend the money way better helping refugees generally.

[HoreTore]

outside rape, girl, below 15y of age -278
outside rape, girl, 15-17y of age - 197
outside rape, woman, 18+y of age - 440

278+197+440=915

Those are the numbers I draw from the statistics, sure you didnt miss some field matey? True, when I said "about 1000" I just did a quick skim, I was not so far off the mark though, certeanly closer than your 440.

You are right that 5937 rapes were reported all in all during 2009 all in all (men and women). You are also right that not every outside rape is an assault rape. However, we have no figures published on assault rapes, so as I already said, outside rape was closest I could find. Just how many of the 1kish outside rapes are assault rapes I do not know, but most def more than the 10 you claimed.

And yes, I agree, most rapes are commited when they both know each other. IE, husband raping wife.

Your logic is skewed though, when you say girls are more likely to be raped by a native Swede. Sure, you are right, given native swedes are 90% of the pop. Still doesnt change the fact that an African immigrant is several hundred procent more likely to commit rape than a native swede. Get my point?

However, it seems ludicrous to dig in to the rape argument, I am unsure why Louis brought it up.

We can end that part of the discussion with saying that immigrants are more likely than native swedes to rape, but we are unsure as to how much more unlikely as we dont have the numbers.

The reason I am against massimmigration such as the one we have in Sweden is not because of the rape statistics, but because of econonomical reasons (as well as crime). Not to mention we could spend the money way better helping refugees generally.

You bring Pedobear rapes into this discussion...? I left them out for a reason, they have nothing to do with this discussion. The 15-17 age bracket might have a few relevant cases.

"Outside rapes" count rapes committed in cars, in public bathrooms, on field trips, etc etc. When we already know that most rapes are committed by someone the person already knows, I see no reason why that should be restricted to rapes committed indoors, the majority of rapes outside is likely to be committed by someone they know too. Let's say 3/4; that leaves 110 of the original 440 cases. But a big part is likely to be committed by people the victim just met, like a guy at a bar, for example, and they don't fit into the assault rape category either; let's say 50%. Now cut it in half to take into account Norway's population, and the end number is 30, which is in the area of "10 or so", like I said.

But hey, that doesn't fit in with the "darkies gonna get ya"-propaganda, I know.

Also, please prove the figure in the bolded part.

The fact remains that only a tiny percentage of the immigrant population is convicted of rape, and they are the group most likely to be convicted of rape(since new arrivals do not have big social networks, and cases with no relation between rapist and victim are the easiest to solve), so to judge and condemn the million completely innocent immigrants in Sweden due to the actions of a few thousand(at most) is utterly retarded.

Unfortunately, that does seem to be the mental state of the SD, so their behaviour is not surprising.

[Louis VI the Fat]

We can end that part of the discussion with saying that immigrants are more likely than native swedes to rape, but we are unsure as to how much more unlikely as we dont have the numbers. Well for some rough indication, Frags was so kind as to provide some numbers. Albeit for Oslo and several years ago:

While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.

[HoreTore]

Well for some rough indication, Frags was so kind as to provide some numbers. Albeit for Oslo and several years ago:

While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.

Yes, and it's all highly irrelevant due to four factors:

- only 5-10% of rapes are reported and those with ethnic norwegian offenders are less likely to be reported, due to relations
- of those 5-10%, even fewer are reported and again, those with ethnic norwegian offenders are less likely to be convicted, due to relations
- "non-western" includes poles, lithuanians and other easstern euro's, who are not immigrants and have nothing to do with the immigration debate
- building on that: if we assume that in order to buy sex, you need to have a view that sex is a commodity you as a male both need and should be given, and that this attitude could also result in rapes, it is interesting to note that almost all sex buyers are ethnic norwegians and eastern european workers...



If you want a crime statistic, pick murder instead, we have a 95% conviction rate there.


Back on topic:

I'm hoping Sweden will find a Bondevik I solution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bondevik%27s_First_Cabinet)...

[rory_20_uk]

Equally to sell sex you have to view it as a commodity...

Everything is a commodity. My time is costed to clients, my seniors time is costed to clients and is worth more.

And of course, rape unlike murder for example is not a clear cut issue. There isn't consensual murder. With an allegation of rape there are often two stories almost identical. One recollects they wanted to have sex, the other recollects they didn't. To what extent events post coitus have determined the view is something that is extremely difficult to discern. Possibly it is easier to report an event that occurred with an immigrant as the conviction is more likely and they'll have less support, but also there might be less acceptance of sleeping with an immigrant by one's peers.

A conviction rate is meaningless. You can easily get a 100% rate just by locking someone up for every murder. I assume you mean a 95 conviction rate with a very low rate of mistrials / successful appeals.

~:smoking:

[Shibumi]

HoreTore, about 50% (48% last time I saw any numbers) of the rapes are commited by immigrants. The immigrant base is 14% of the population. You do the math.

However, why are we bogging down to a discussion of rape? I dont think the rape statistics is the main reason SD gained votes, rather general crime and economical reasons.

[HoreTore]

Equally to sell sex you have to view it as a commodity...

Everything is a commodity. My time is costed to clients, my seniors time is costed to clients and is worth more.

Yes.... My language skills failed me on that one. But anyhoo, it wasn't very important...


And of course, rape unlike murder for example is not a clear cut issue. There isn't consensual murder. With an allegation of rape there are often two stories almost identical. One recollects they wanted to have sex, the other recollects they didn't. To what extent events post coitus have determined the view is something that is extremely difficult to discern. Possibly it is easier to report an event that occurred with an immigrant as the conviction is more likely and they'll have less support, but also there might be less acceptance of sleeping with an immigrant by one's peers.

Indeed! A few weeks ago, I was in bed with a friend of mine after we came home from a night on out. Just slept, no sex involved at all, the reason she slept here instead of at home is because it was a lot easier to get here at 0400. Now... assume I raped her. She was drunk as hell and in no position to resist, I am also a lot stronger than her. She reports it to the police, we end up in court and what happens? I say it was consensual sex. She says it wasn't. As there are absolutely no more evidence, unless I confess, I go free because of the doubt, especially since there have been a lot of flirting between us in the past.

A newly arrived immigrant can't get a get-away-with-rape card like that, due to not having the required social network, and thus gets sentenced to jail and ends up in the statistics, while an ethnic Aryan Übermensch like myself goes free and is removed from the statistic.


A conviction rate is meaningless. You can easily get a 100% rate just by locking someone up for every murder. I assume you mean a 95 conviction rate with a very low rate of mistrials / successful appeals.

Yes, I meant "conviction" as in "still sentenced to jail after all the appeals are dealt with".


HoreTore, about 50% (48% last time I saw any numbers) of the rapes are commited by immigrants. The immigrant base is 14% of the population. You do the math.

I believe I already have, maybe you should give maths a try as well?


However, why are we bogging down to a discussion of rape? I dont think the rape statistics is the main reason SD gained votes, rather general crime and economical reasons.

Well, we're discussing rape because Louis in his infinite wisdom brought it up... But it is highly relevant, since rape is the number 1 scare used by racists, especially when making flyers, followed by narcotics.

[Shibumi]

HoreTore, I am unsure how to convince you. Even the most leftist media in Sweden has admitted that immigrants are way over represented, so to sit online and struggle with trying to get you to accept it seems like a waste of time. Read up on it, by all means. You would have to make a very compelling argument to try and sway me though.

I will leave the rape discussion, but am more than willing to adress other issues, like, the intended issues I first started the thread with (if anyone remembers).




On topic:

I think the economical reasons was the main factor as to why people voted for SD this time around. With finances as they are, people start to frown when money are spent on immigration rather than taking care of the people already in the country.

[HoreTore]

HoreTore, I am unsure how to convince you. Even the most leftist media in Sweden has admitted that immigrants are way over represented, so to sit online and struggle with trying to get you to accept it seems like a waste of time. Read up on it, by all means. You would have to make a very compelling argument to try and sway me though.

lolz.

I have already proven that assault rapes are so rare that they are irrelevant, I have explained why these rape statistics are completely useless numbers that doesn't tell us anything and I have shown why such things should not affect a wider immigration policy.

You, on the other hand, have made absolutely no argument to counter it, and it now looks like you're incapable of doing so.



I'm not saying that is a surprise though, given your affection for SD.


I think the economical reasons was the main factor as to why people voted for SD this time around. With finances as they are, people start to frown when money are spent on immigration rather than taking care of the people already in the country.

And here we see the good parrot repeating another favourite racist quote; that the immigration is costing us a bunch of money. I admit that there haven't been much studies done on this(it's a very large subject), but here (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article2836877.ece) is one, and it concludes that immigration is a bonus; immigrants provide more to our nation than they take.



But, as a Norwegian, I am of course more than willing to accept that you Swedes voted out of ignorance instead of actual knowledge ~;)

[Strike For The South]

Does anyone else find it odd Horetore knows so much about rape?

[Rhyfelwyr]

as I always point out to my female friends; they shouldn't fear being raped when in a dark alley at night, they should be worried when they're having a beer alone at home with just me.

I hope you never plan to become a politician when comments like this are begging to be taken right out of context.

[HoreTore]

Does anyone else find it odd Horetore knows so much about rape?

"Vikings loves to X and pillage the English coast."

Find X in the above statement.


I hope you never plan to become a politician when comments like this are begging to be taken right out of context.

Hah!

[Beskar]

@HoreTore:
https://img709.imageshack.us/img709/9223/findx.png

[Fragony]

with 20 percent being women of foreign background.[/I]

And if only you Horetore would understand what an ugly spot they are in. The left calls us islamphobes, but a phobia is irrational, being rational isn't. In the meantime the schoolgirl love for anything Islam gets them all wet in moral painful agony.

[Louis VI the Fat]

@HoreTore:

https://img709.imageshack.us/img709/9223/findx.png10 out of 10. :balloon2:

[Shibumi]

@HoreTore:
https://img709.imageshack.us/img709/9223/findx.png

*bow*

HoreTore, you need to up your game, dont let them get you!

[Vladimir]

10 out of 10. :balloon2:

:2thumbsup:

[HoreTore]

@HoreTore:
https://img709.imageshack.us/img709/9223/findx.png

:laugh4:


And if only you Horetore would understand what an ugly spot they are in. The left calls us islamphobes, but a phobia is irrational, being rational isn't. In the meantime the schoolgirl love for anything Islam gets them all wet in moral painful agony.

....And if only you, frags, would understand that the majority of these foreign women have ethnic norwegian husbands....

And I support the rights of female immigrants; something the right-wingers love to say they do, but never do; do they really believe that a woman is better of staying in Iran than if they moved here? Nonsense. Our system may fail some, but at least we have a system to protect them.

The right-wing loonies want to throw them all back to countries and law systems where they can be stoned for being raped. To say that is supporting them is mind-blowing.

[Meneldil]

lolz.

I have already proven that assault rapes are so rare that they are irrelevant, I have explained why these rape statistics are completely useless numbers that doesn't tell us anything and I have shown why such things should not affect a wider immigration policy.


64% of the people being jailed in France are of African descent. 72% are muslims. But surely, that's irrelevant too. Too small numbers. Shouldn't be taken into account, blabla.

You used to be better at arguing. Covering your ears while repeating "you're wrong you're wrong nanana" doesn't make you right.


Indeed! A few weeks ago, I was in bed with a friend of mine after we came home from a night on out. Just slept, no sex involved at all, the reason she slept here instead of at home is because it was a lot easier to get here at 0400. Now... assume I raped her. She was drunk as hell and in no position to resist, I am also a lot stronger than her. She reports it to the police, we end up in court and what happens? I say it was consensual sex. She says it wasn't. As there are absolutely no more evidence, unless I confess, I go free because of the doubt, especially since there have been a lot of flirting between us in the past.

This got to be the biggest pile of BS posted in the backroom in a long while. Are you trying to replace Khadagar_AV?

It is well known that crimes are rarely reported in suburbs that host lot of immigrants. Omerta, law of silence, blackmailling, etc. Your idea that crimes are reported less often when it comes to white people because they have "social networks" is, as Tribesman would put it, utter bollox.

[HoreTore]

Covering my ears, Meneldil? No mate, what you quoted was a reference to my previous posts, as I didn't really feel like repeating what I have said.

And my statements have been about a specific thing, rape, in a specific region, sweden. If you want to counter those arguments, you will have to argue within that area, as it obviously does not apply to other things(crimes in general) in other places(France).

I eould be happy to discuss immigrant crime in France too of course, but I'd want a start other than "you're an idiot".

EDIT: also, khadagar gets laid. I did not. I can assure you, me and her not having sex sure as hell wasn't my idea...

I got as far as breast fondling and dry humping a year ago, that's the closest I've been with her....

[Beskar]

I always wondered something though....

If I remember correctly, the right wants focus on the individual and treated as such. Protecting the individual from the masses. Evils of socialism and all that lot. So why do the 'right' brand a segment of the population and call them evil, even though there are plenty of individuals in that constructed grouping working hard and simply progressing with their lives?

It always struck me as silly and contradictory.

As for crime-statistics, perhaps the conditions, economically and socially for foreigners leads them more likely to commit crime, but on that note, should you stick them all in camps or expel people on the basis of their skin color or religion? Should we tag all Muslims so if they go near someone vulnerable, it sets off an alarm? Where are these solutions outside of "Muslims/coloured people are teh evilz!"

It is a fact that in-group people view out-groups in negative stereotypes. "Those other them are not like us, they are all negative negative!", and this is simply what is occurring.

I am not going to deny statistics, but if I was in power, I would tackle the issues so people were not vulnerable and deal with any of the issues. I can do all of this without going on some bigoted rant saying coloured people are evil as well.

There is a big difference saying there is a "situation in this section we need to deal with" and "all coloured people are evil!". Unfortunately, the ones who advocate the latter cannot tell the different between the former and when called out on their bigoted opinion, cry foul trying to say they the people accusing them as such 'want to get in bed with coloured people and have wet dreams with them', as some one earlier mentioned.

[Shibumi]

Beskar, I am running out of time now - so to make it short.

The SD doesnt want to send anyone to the gas chambers, nor kick anyone out who is here (except fugitives without citizenship who commit crime, which I deem fair enough).

They do however want to get immigration numbers (henceforth) down to the levels of, say, Norway and Denmark. SD also offers a sum off money for refugees who decide to return to their birth countries.

"You fled - situation in your country calmed down - here is some money so you can return and prosper"

If they want people out, it is with carrots, not with sticks. Something I applaud. I do not think this will work though, as few will go back to, say, Iran, after having been granted citizenship in Sweden. The idea however is def far away from what they are accused of "they will kick the immigrants out".

[Beskar]

Sure, Immigration levels doesn't mean that Muslims are evil rapists. I have always been a long time advocate of Population control, in particular, think there should be a pretty universal one child per parent system (Any more kids won't receive any form of benefits from the government, it is your conscious choice to have more kids or not).

My post wasn't in particular against the SD party and their policies, it was in response to some of the posters based on what they said here and in other topics.

If the SD only want to limit immigration and offer non-citizens the chance to return to their country, then there is no actual problem with that. However, if this is simply it, they should say it like this.

[Skullheadhq]

The SD doesnt want to send anyone to the gas chambers, nor kick anyone out who is here (except fugitives without citizenship who commit crime, which I deem fair enough).

SD? Sicherheidsdienst?

[HoreTore]

SD? Sicherheidsdienst?

Hah! Well spotted!

....And you're not that far off, the Swedish democrats had to ban nazi uniforms from their rallies... Yes, definitely no nazi scumbags there :dizzy2:

[Shibumi]

Beskar, the problem with SD is not really their policys. They would be seen as mainstream in surounding countries, and in many countries they would be seen as leftist bleeding for the immigrant cause.

However, this is Sweden. We have not been very logical for ages. So when I say that SD wants to bring immigration down to surrounding nations level, you must bear in mind that this means they will cut immigration by 90%. You start to see the problem?

"We should have the same immigration as the other European countries" - sounds normal.
"We should cut immigration by 90%" - sounds racistic.

Guess what perspective leftist (read: all) media has on it?


HoreTore, and the Democrats in the state are all slave owners, and the socialistic party in Norway worship Mao? It is true that SD in the beginning attracted a lot of racists. But few political parties origin is without flaws. What I find more interesting is the reforms that has lead to where the party is today. Meaningless arguments like the one you just used might attract some uneducated leftists, but you might want to refrain from using them in any form of civilized debate, non?

If you want to attack the party, then attack their program or budget. You know, their actual policies. What in these do you deem racistic?

[Louis VI the Fat]

It is true that SD in the beginning attracted a lot of racists. But few political parties origin is without flaws. What I find more interesting is the reforms that has lead to where the party is today. Meaningless arguments like the one you just used might attract some uneducated leftists, but you might want to refrain from using them in any form of civilized debate, non?No, I think HoreTore is quite right to spell out that the SD was founded as the Swedish fascist party and remained pretty much a simple, unadulterated nazi party until quite recently.

The party has reformed the past decade into a populist party. True nazism, hardcore extreme right is now to the right of the SD. That, and the political climate in Europe has hardened to such an extent that what was considered fascist fifteen years ago, is now pretty standard rightwing fare. In fact, considered by its followers to be 'normal', and everything to the left of it as part of the leftwing conspiracy.

[Ironside]

Rape data from 2005. Latest big report (http://www.bra.se/extra/measurepoint/?module_instance=4&name=2008_13_V_ldt_kt_mot_personer_15__r_och__ldre_webb.pdf&url=/dynamaster/file_archive/090206/440830a000c40c402bf765c88ba70b5e/2008%255f13%255fV%255fldt%255fkt%255fmot%255fpersoner%255f15%255f%255fr%255foch%255f%255fldre%255fwe bb.pdf).

All data taken from different Brå studies.
12% assult rapes, 11% multiperp rapes. Big overlap on those groups.

Number of reported rapes have almost tripled since 2004 to 2009, when a law change was introduced. 5940 reported rapes 2009.

Around 30% was assult rapes during the 70-ties, about 900 reported rapes 1975 (http://www.bra.se/extra/measurepoint/?module_instance=4&name=Sexualbrott (ur Brottsutvecklingen)&url=/dynamaster/file_archive/081215/cf0d7ec7aed34cd697cf62aaf2750de0/BU%255fSexualbrott.pdf).

Immigrant crimes from the period 1997-2001. 2005 report (http://www.bra.se/extra/measurepoint/?module_instance=4&name=1brottslsveutland.pdf&url=/dynamaster/file_archive/051214/e7dae113eb493479665ffe649e0edf57/1brottslsveutland.pdf). Based on police suspects

Immigrant groups suspected for no crime at all was between 88 compared to 95 procent for Swedes with two Swedish parents, overrisk of being immigrant was 2,5 compared to Swede with both Swedish parents. Larger for some crimes, in particular the more brutal one. Immigrant children are less prone to crime than their parents (that's unusual internationally), except on youth crimes. North African group highest risk group with 3,7 times higher number. North Africans is suspect of 0,7% of total crimes. Middle east 3,0 times higher and 3,4% of total crimes.
For rape, the immigrant value is 5,0 times higher or 0,22% of their part of the population. Can't get data for subsets.
Crime ratio is "Swedified" with time and haven't really changed numbers within the different immigrant groups since the 1985-1989 study. More people from the higher risk groups has arrived though, bumping up total number a bit.

There, some data. Won't really bother to comment, but yes immigration is not good for a country's crime rate. But it isn't the sole reason for the increase in rapes.

About economic costs linky (http://www.magnusbetner.com/2010/06/sverigedemokraterna-del-5/). Since he bothered to link all his data. Not perfect, he's sloppy on the crime number (as evidencied above), since he's doing quick countings, but that doesn't matter much for total cost or main point.



Ironside, your comments seem very biased, to say the least. Have you actually read SDs political program? I assume you are Swedish? If you have read up on them, and not just read socialist media, I would welcome a discussion about their politics with you. A more elaborate one.


Their homepage was going down (and currently is), so I couldn't fully access it, but I've seen pieces of it and also their full official anti-immigration part. And it is finely written, but is a I said only a small patina.

Integration policy: Was a quote from a DN article and not contradicted by their official immigration policy.
Racists: Well latest incident should be the "arab violence gene". Multiple previous incidents.
Former Nazis: Common knowledge. Very notable in older policies.
Immigration money will support everything and all problems will be solved by the now proud Swedes: That was their whole manifesto for the election 2006 (well and lower taxes for retired people). Most points remains and thier two main documents are written 2005 and long before current election (2007 or 2008 iirc).
More social conservative than KD: Well latest suggestion is more central controlled culture budget to have more "broad and public" culture while making sure that radical and provocing culture gets nothing. They are really using the "verklighetens folk" (people of reality) concept.

Seriously, they have a lot of really horrible policies. And low quality rethorics. Why do you think it's easy to make mockery of them? Or note that if they follow their own policies it becomes bizarre. Sure they get a lot of flac that's only cosisting that they're bad, but they aren't exposed to an evil propaganda machine. Their own statements are enough for that.

Or do really think that they're against immigration to protect the immigrants? They are implying that all over their wed site.

[Shibumi]

Louis VI the Fat, You are not all wrong. However, immigration question aside, SD mainly share policys with the left wing. So to put them on the right wing might not be all correct. In most social questions SD is to the left of the socialist party!

They are generally hard to get on to the left/right scale, better just call them a populist party.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Louis VI the Fat, You are not all wrong. However, immigration question aside, SD mainly share policys with the left wing. So to put them on the right wing might not be all correct. In most social questions SD is to the left of the socialist party!

They are generally hard to get on to the left/right scale, better just call them a populist party.This is very true. Indeed, the European populist right is economically socialist, and socially nationalist.

Perhaps the European populist far right is best described with some imaginative combination of the terms 'national' and 'socialist'. :balloon2:

Easy mockery aside, it remains fascinating that it should be the far right that seeks to protect social democracy in Europe. I have very mixed, sad, and confusing thoughts about that.
Equally fascinating is that the populist electorate are to a great extent former social-democratic voters. And, lastly, that there is enormous resentment of 'the left' within the populist electorate - part ignorance of the very much socialist elements of populist right, part dissapointment and resentment.

[Shibumi]

Ironside, good post, and I agree with pretty much everything.

Two small things though. About economy, I wouldnt believe his calculations. The Social Democrats and Aftonbladet had the cost at 40bil, so I would rather have that as a "lowest" cost than the 11bil he suggests.

It depends much on how you count though.

It generally felt like 40bil is way to low, as they missed a lot of more "hidden" costs.

Just as an example, schools get funds after what issues they have, a loopsided view one might think. A school with bad results gets way more funds than a school with good results.

I dont like singular examples when speaking economy, but this one might highlight it. A friend of mine, working as teacher, just got his first immigrant child in school, straight from Somalia. And tadaaaa, the school cashed in, as they now need home-language teacher, school psychiatrist, extra teachers, a program for incorporation a.s.o.

As you well may see, most of this money is not counted as money going to immigration, but money to help students. But, let us be real, immigrants are a lot more likely to have the problems generating these money to the school. That is just one example of one of these "hidden" costs.



Second thing I object to is you saying their party program is well written, but just a small patina.

Well, their party program is what they got to election on, and what you cast your vote on. It is also what they have promised to try and fullfill. If they start going crazy at a later stage we will have to deal with it then, but till that happens, we should judge them by the policy they stand for, no?

Otherwise you couldnt vote for pretty much any party, as The Social Democrats are just communists who wants everyone to be the same, the Moderates are capitalist pigs who want to enrich a small elite while starving the working class, the Christian Democrats are religious freaks who want to sterilize all gay people... and... so... on...

So, why not give SD the same benefit of doubt we give the rest, and judge them based on the political policys they campaigned to get through?

Oh, and thanks for correcting HoreTore properly, I just couldnt be bothered.

[Ironside]

Beskar, the problem with SD is not really their policys. They would be seen as mainstream in surounding countries, and in many countries they would be seen as leftist bleeding for the immigrant cause.

However, this is Sweden. We have not been very logical for ages. So when I say that SD wants to bring immigration down to surrounding nations level, you must bear in mind that this means they will cut immigration by 90%. You start to see the problem?

"We should have the same immigration as the other European countries" - sounds normal.
"We should cut immigration by 90%" - sounds racistic.

Guess what perspective leftist (read: all) media has on it?


Nice example on the word twisting. Now I won't dig around more, but that number has to be talking about refugees through relatives or something like that to even make sense. More than 10% of the Swedish immigrants are Swedish citizens for example (almost 14%). Total number was 102 280.

Denmark recieved 65.669 immigrants in 2009, Finland 26 699.

Sweden has fairly low net immigration by international standards.


Ironside, good post, and I agree with pretty much everything.

Two small things though. About economy, I wouldnt believe his calculations. The Social Democrats and Aftonbladet had the cost at 40bil, so I would rather have that as a "lowest" cost than the 11bil he suggests.

That number comes from:
Ekberg J. (1999) Immigration and the public sector: Income effects for the native population in
Sweden. Journal of Population Economics 12: 411-430.

Seems to be the only well worked study on on immigration cost, even if I haven't red it. To make a counter example for hidden cost, the immigrant children behaves more as Swedes, so their economic profile will do the same. And they won't be counted as immigrants won't they?


Second thing I object to is you saying their party program is well written, but just a small patina.

Well, their party program is what they got to election on, and what you cast your vote on. It is also what they have promised to try and fullfill. If they start going crazy at a later stage we will have to deal with it then, but till that happens, we should judge them by the policy they stand for, no?

Otherwise you couldnt vote for pretty much any party, as The Social Democrats are just communists who wants everyone to be the same, the Moderates are capitalist pigs who want to enrich a small elite while starving the working class, the Christian Democrats are religious freaks who want to sterilize all gay people... and... so... on...

So, why not give SD the same benefit of doubt we give the rest, and judge them based on the political policys they campaigned to get through?

Well, firstly I wouldn't touch their political policies they campaigned on (not only immigration) with a ten foot pole, but might be down to political taste. But the thing with SD is that it also feels like they're a patina covered party that truely wants something else.

As I said, SD doesn't want the immigrants here because it's better for the immigrants to not be here according to their own policies. Do anybody find that belivable? Or non-whacky?

Or you can compare what they write to what the facist parties wrote.

Seriously:
kränkningar av den nationalistiska principen ger upphov till instabilitet och konflikter. Gränstvister och tvister om särskilda rättigheter för olika grupper har genom århundradena fått ödesdigra konsekvenser. Av den anledningen är den nationalistiska principen central och bör eftersträvas i största möjliga utsträckning över hela världen.” Yes, following the nationalistic principle is such a bringer peace such as it has always been, like the primeval of the nuclear family.

Sverigedemokraterna menar att det i första hand är familjen och nationen som ger oss förutsättningarna att uppnå detta. Inga konstruerade kollektiv kan helt ersätta dessa djupt rotade, ursprungliga gemenskaper

Both are not at all constructs with a much later date.

Also recall that V, MP and KD is getting occational political flak for being whacky and whacky statements. Ohly is part of the reason the left did poorly this election.


Oh, and thanks for correcting HoreTore properly, I just couldnt be bothered.
You are noting that I'm basically correcting most people here right? Horetore is vastly exaggerating, but he isn't really wrong. Data is showing on that immigrants are both reported more (heavily implied in the data) and doing more rapes. Assult rapes are decreasing relativly. Sweden's high number is mainly due to different definitions and reporting numbers or we recently imported all rapists from a new countries.

[Tellos Athenaios]

This is very true. Indeed, the European populist right is economically socialist, and socially nationalist.

Perhaps the European populist far right is best described with some imaginative combination of the terms 'national' and 'socialist'. :balloon2:

That's not just mockery: that's actually accurate, they channel the same political voice that the NSDAP did before it became obsessed with social darwinism.

[Fragony]

It's pretty simple, populist right doesn't want to pay for the opium of the elite. Multiculturalism and social engineering are the state religion, and we are heavily taxed atheists. Not our dream, and we don't accept the burden. Not so sure I would vote on these SD guys though, I wonder what they say when they are among themselves, I don't think people so easily adieu such views.

[Fragony]

:laugh4:



....And if only you, frags, would understand that the majority of these foreign women have ethnic norwegian husbands....

Rubbish, Norway counts everybody born in Norway as ethnic. Majority of these new Norwegians import brides, over 70%. Do them a favour and stop trying to help these integrated muslim ladies by excusing the sick culture they managed to leave.

edit: Ah, the first attempted murder http://politisktinkorrekt.info/2010/09/25/avrattningsforsok-pa-sd-politiker-fran-mellanostern/

[Fragony]

Aha http://www.stockholmnews.com/more.aspx?NID=5919

Looks like the social democrats haven't lost their appetite for forced surgery on what they consider undesirable for social hygiene. You can have it in any color you like as long as it's red, viva la post-war resistance

[Shibumi]

Time for an update then.

The right wing now have a minority government, thus being forced to haggle with the left. Will be a good four years for political fanboys, lots and lots of gooey deals will be made under the table for sure.

The first decision of bigger interest will be about the Afghan war. The Swedish Democrats (SD) are against the war, and for pulling out ASAP. This is a stance they share with the left, and thus the left wing together with SD could easily block anything the government (who is pro-war) suggests.

The vote about the afghan war will be pretty soon, this fall.

Interesting times!

[Strike For The South]

Time for an update then.

The right wing now have a minority government, thus being forced to haggle with the left. Will be a good four years for political fanboys, lots and lots of gooey deals will be made under the table for sure.

The first decision of bigger interest will be about the Afghan war. The Swedish Democrats (SD) are against the war, and for pulling out ASAP. This is a stance they share with the left, and thus the left wing together with SD could easily block anything the government (who is pro-war) suggests.

The vote about the afghan war will be pretty soon, this fall.

Interesting times!


Where are the closet muslims? Where are the pregnant daughters?

[Shibumi]

Troll post, or did you have a point?

[Strike For The South]

Troll post, or did you have a point?

I was merley commenting on how smooth the elections seem to be running.

Kids these days, no respect for us old guys

[Fragony]

Where are the closet muslims? Where are the pregnant daughters?

That is never clever, not even in Texas

[Strike For The South]

That is never clever, not even in Texas

Does me saying muslim make you cringe?

Can a guy not make a comment? Do I have to spell everything out for everybody?

I am relativley surprised how smooth the Swedish elections have been going. When one juxtaposes this against the American circus and media frenzy, an American citizen can not help but be a bit worried by the hyperbolic nature of our own. It puts even more lines on ones face when many of the Swedish questions mimic the American ones. It's not as if they have less problems

[Fragony]

Do I have to spell everything out for everybody?


Better not since English is not my native language, it could confuse me. I guess your original point just got lost in translation;

I am relativley surprised how smooth the Swedish elections have been going. When one juxtaposes this against the American circus and media frenzy, an American citizen can not help but be a bit worried by the hyperbolic nature of our own. It puts even more lines on ones face when many of the Swedish questions mimic the American ones. It's not as if they have less problems

Que? "Where are the closet muslims? Where are the pregnant daughters?"

[Shibumi]

Does me saying muslim make you cringe?

Can a guy not make a comment? Do I have to spell everything out for everybody?

I am relativley surprised how smooth the Swedish elections have been going. When one juxtaposes this against the American circus and media frenzy, an American citizen can not help but be a bit worried by the hyperbolic nature of our own. It puts even more lines on ones face when many of the Swedish questions mimic the American ones. It's not as if they have less problems

Sorry if I didnt get you first time around, was a bit to vague for me.

But yes, the US elections seem to be a bit of a circus. I think part of it is due to the heavy weight put on the individuals shoulders, the presedential contenders and the ones running for governor.

The Swedish politicians are more in the background, never leaving an opening for, say, the Obama-wave that struck the US. The party is the main figure in the politics here, not the individual as such. And flinging dirt on a party is way harder, one might even say futile, compared to attacking individuals, specially since humans by nature always have some closet skeletons.

We had some scandals this election, but nothing that hurt the party as such. One minister got was hung out in media for having bought sex, he withdrew from his post, and that was about it. I doubt it hurt his party at all.

So yeah, I would say the frenzy in the states are due to individuals having a bigger role, along with broader media. Sweden still has rather limited media, the state run channels run most of the election show. This means medias need to create news (where there are none) is less. Of course, we have some media frenzy here too, and scaremongering and so on. But I guess we just care less.

I think the US politics could have much to win if the individual was less central in the campaigning, after all, it is his partys ideas that is what really matters. Politics should not be about who has a winning smile or not,but then, when trying to convince the stupid masses it works.