Dark Age: Total War [Archive]

Heraclius

03-14-2003, 05:24

I would argue with you about this Elwe, and thus hijack the thread, but the mods keep a much closer watch in the Main Hall than in the Colosseum. Ah, what the hell. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
In short I believe that although the Byzantines kept some forms of Roman law and governmental structure, their art, religion, writings, monuments, language and alot of their government (absolute monarchy and divine right for example) were uniquely Greek or if not that quite different from Roman practices. After all a Roman Empire without Rome? I'd suggest the last vestiges of the Roman Empire went out when my namesake came in.

ErikJansen

03-14-2003, 05:55

Hey Vandals.. that sounds cool..

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Heraclius

03-14-2003, 06:14

Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ Mar. 13 2003,22:55)]Hey Vandals.. that sounds cool..

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
you talking bout me and Elwe your resident org thread hijackers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif or those germans who pillaged Rome?

Elwe

03-14-2003, 06:58

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 13 2003,22:24)]I would argue with you about this Elwe, and thus hijack the thread, but the mods keep a much closer watch in the Main Hall than in the Colosseum. Ah, what the hell. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
In short I believe that although the Byzantines kept some forms of Roman law and governmental structure, their art, religion, writings, monuments, language and alot of their government (absolute monarchy and divine right for example) were uniquely Greek or if not that quite different from Roman practices. After all a Roman Empire without Rome? I'd suggest the last vestiges of the Roman Empire went out when my namesake came in.
So, what your saying is (bugger.. we've hijaked another thread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ):

I will agree that the term Roman Empire is misleading.. how about Empire of the Roman's? (Giving it a westernised translation).

Because the Ostrogoths captured Rome, that all the social/political/religious practices ceased to exist and a new social order emerged? (ok, I'm being a little harsh).

I wouldn't say they kept some forms, I would say they retained all... but these forms would have slowly altered over the course of centuries from 400 to 1400, in such a way that the 'structure' of the Roman Empire would be quite different to the 'structure' of the Empire of the Romans (Byzantium)

Quote[/b] ](absolute monarchy and divine right for example) were uniquely Greek or if not that quite different from Roman practices.

But I would argue that as these were introduced by Constantine, he who moved the capital from Rome to Constantinople, they are still wholly 'Roman'.

The Roman Empire was unique in history in that it lasted for such a long time that it just had to go through evolutionary changes in it's structure. A transfer of government location and the loss of land doesn't mean the loss of a culture.

My argument is based that the culture of the Roman Empire 280AD is much closer to that of (*shudder*) Byzantium in 800AD than it was the the Holy Roman Empire at the same time.

What did those people call them selves at THAT time? The Nobility of the HRE called themselves Franks... in Anna Comnena's Alexiad, the people of (*shudder again*) Byzantium called themselves Romans.. and that was in the eraly 1200's.

I, with what very limited study/reading I have done, would be more inclined to say that Greek culture evolved out of that of the Byzantine culture, than say that Byzantine was uniquely Greek.

Please, no offence of any kind intended, just a stimulating debate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Cheers.

[Edit: corrected date for HRE to 800AD]

Heraclius

03-14-2003, 07:01

elwe, my partner in crime, be assured that as soon as the liquor wares off and allows me to think I'll be back to argue with your (damn) well thought out post.

Elwe

03-14-2003, 07:10

I await with baited breath http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers.

Heraclius

03-14-2003, 16:42

sadly I am way from home and lack access to my history books. can you wait until Sunday at the latest? I feel like dying, even black coffee isn't helping. ugh

kataphraktoi

03-14-2003, 16:50

Can I join too. Can I argue senselessly that "Byzantium" is ROman????

By the way I meant this topic to mean a Total War Dar Age game not an add on

But I have made an add on for it in progress.

It is about the Arab Invasions starting from AD717

It is a time of invasion, pestilence, confusion, warfare and of course the Saracen curse

Any question.

Need info.

Give me your e-mail add and I will give you details of what I am doing.

I did write it on this post but I was locked out of ti and lost all my weritings gahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHH

Being post hijacked is like being mugged, now I will exact my vengeance thru Historical arguments.

I am the Klibanophoroi of History and Byzantine history, I will trample anyone who opposed in a wedge unless of course some wicked Saracens comes up with a solution.

JANOSIK007

03-14-2003, 17:51

Kataphraktoi, you have forgotten about one important faction.

The Great Moravian Empire. At their height in late 800s it encompassed modern-day Hugary, Czech rep., Slovakia and southern Poland.

They rivaled Franks and even fended off Frankish invasions uder king German. Also they were allies of Byzantine Empire and together they have defeated Bulgars on multiple occasions. The country feel shortly after the invasion of Magyars in 900s, who were called up by the Franks ( apparently Franks were afraid of Svatopluk's influence and the strength of the empire ).

BTW, Frankish empire was divided at the time into Western, Eastern, and Southern ( Svatopluk quarelled with the Eastern Franks ).

Galestrum

03-15-2003, 01:44

*STREAKS IN*

I agree with elwe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Merely because things changed doesnt mean it wasnt roman, heck rome of 300 BC is far different than rome of 300 AD, but it was still Rome.

The empire became more than the city. When you read later emporors they always speak of the desire to retake their western part of the empire.

Merely because the eastern part was more greek in nature than the west doesnt mean it was not the same polity, every part of the empire had their own gods, etc, yet they were part of the empire.

If the US lost washington DC, it would still be the US.

Sure things changed, but lots of things change in a thousand years, America of today is nothing like america of the revolution, yet its still america.

Elwe

03-15-2003, 03:06

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Mar. 14 2003,09:50)]Can I join too. Can I argue senselessly that "Byzantium" is ROman????
It's a question of somantics, kataphraktoi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]Being post hijacked is like being mugged, now I will exact my vengeance thru Historical arguments.

Sorry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Quote[/b] ]Galestrum: I agree with elwe

Thanks mate, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

As Galestrum has said, it's more a matter of what the people called themselves at the time, than what they are commonly known as today.

In a word, I am being pedantic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Cheers.

(P.S. We managed to attract a few hangers-on, Heraclius http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Heraclius

03-15-2003, 06:33

I'm not back at home but I don't want this discussion to go any further without my luminating presence http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif of course I'm talking about a man who just spent the night vomiting his brains out. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif but I'm back at the org and feeling refreshed.
No reason that I should be offended by your threads, Elwe, old chum. we're just talking history. On one thing you're right. my comment about not holding Rome was wrong. After all the Holy Roman Empire was just as un-Roman as the
Byzantines. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I believe that both Elwe and Galestrum mentioned that it is partly a matter of what people call themselves. Here is a Greek saying I have heard about this topic:two men are talking, we'l call them Yiannis and Dimitris.

Yiannis: if you call sheep's tail a leg how many legs does it have?
Dimitris replies: five
to which Yiannis says: no. calling a tail a leg does not make it so.
calling a Greek empire roman does not make it so as well.
Yes you're right that Rome in 300AD was different from Rome in 300 BC. But I would say that since the time of Constantine the empire had been quite radically changing in so many ways (religiously, politically, linguistically, culturally, militarily) that by the time of Heraclius say, the first emperor to speak Greek in his court, these changes had culminated into a new empire. all of the culture and much of the governmental style of Rome had dissapeared. Yes these two empires flowed into each other but at a certain point they became seperate entities. Galestrum also mentioned that later emperors dreamed of recapturing Rome but again Heraclius was the first emperor to turn the focus of his kingdom predominantly and in the end permanently on the east and so it remained until Constantine XI.

Elwe

03-15-2003, 09:25

Ok, valid assertions, Heraclius.

However.

My fundamental point is: What did name did they have for themselves?

From what I've read, they referred to themselves as Romans. In the Alexiad they refer to themselves as Romans (something writen post-Heraclius, if I'm not mistaken http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ).

My understanding was that the name 'Byzantine' was given to them after the fall of Constantinople (and thus the Empire) by european rennaisance scholars who knew no better, and wanted to differentiate them from the ancient Roman Empire in a more visible fashion.

Cheers.

P.S.:
Interesting side-query. When did the word 'Greek' first enter the world's vocabulary? As I understand it, the Ancient Greeks referred to themselves as Hellenes, no? (This is something I am acyually curious about, as I have no idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

NagatsukaShumi

03-15-2003, 14:58

Cough, splutter and so on. If you do plan on making a Dark Age MOD please stay well away from the Collapse of Rome period, i don't know whether you know or not but Rome-The Dark Age is back in production so it would be better for both of us if u touched the Mid to Late periods while i did the Early Period, just a suggestion, i don't really wanna be in competition with anyone.

kataphraktoi

03-15-2003, 15:08

Christainity in the Roman Empire was Hellnic Christianity, the fusion of greek philosophy and jewish beliefs, St Augustine was the epitomy of such a fusion, to believe in it was to be Roman, and a Roman Christian citizen of the Christian ROman Empire.

What kind of Christianity did the ahem "byzantine" empire practise?

It was the same kind, Hellenic Christianity, it is much more pronounced as such from the Roman Empire because the Western half followed the Pope who above all else desired power and was thus given a ring by Sauron.....above else wanted primacy of the Entire Church. It was Catholcism that made Christianity of bYZANITUm look different from the Roman EMpire. after all the Eastern Half was faithful to Rome and its universal ideology or in this case a christianised ideology of universal rule of the rOMANS.

Administration was different but that was not an abandonment of Roman institutions, Senate was still alive in Byzantium but powerless than their Pax Romana ancestors, the changes of Byzantium's administration was a practical response much like the ROmans their practical way of adaptation. Adaptatin of byzantium to Hellenic culture is in line with the Romans and their philosophy of adaptation, the Romans adopted the Cataphracts which was essentially an esatern concept, the Romans then adopted Greek culture but remember they ADOPTED GREEK CULTURE WHEN THEY WERE ROMANS AND STILL WERE.

Remember under CARACALLA the Roman Emperor citizenship was granted to anyone living in the Roman Empire thus any previous non-roman could call himself a Roman and be proud he was Roman. In the Byzantium a Bulgar, Serb, Arab, Armenian could call himself a Roman because the Empire was a Roman Empire which not only adopted Greek for practical reasons but also took on the unviersal ideology of Roman citizenship. Thus I have no idea what I am talking about, please explain it for me.

kataphraktoi

03-15-2003, 15:20

NagatsukaShumi - san

my add on starts in the year AD717 well clear of AD476 but I need the early txt. file much easier to use than mid or late. besieds I already modded the mid and late periods.

The mid period is the fourth crusade. I included a Latin Empire in the map under the French.

YAH the Byzicles did call themselves ROmans thru the name RHOMANOI.

In the 10th century the Pope sent aletter addressing
Nicephorus Phocas as Emperor of the Greeks, he though the Romans who abandoned Latin found the term Roman distasteful.

In reply the Leo Phocas, curopalates and brother of Nic blasted the Pope for starting an argument and called him a "fatous bl0ckhead of a Pope"

JANOSI .

A Slav empire would actually be an interesting entry in this time period, yes I have heard of the Great Moravian Empire. But where to put it?

Austria and Bohemia perhaps???

Hungary and Carpathia belongs to the Avars.

kataphraktoi

03-15-2003, 16:08

Whic one of these eastern heavy cavalry - cataphract and clibanarii looks cool?

This could contribute to the argument - not really but its eye candy goodness.

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/cataphract2revised.bmp

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Parthian_catapracts.gif

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/cataphract1.bmp

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/3801-02.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/3801-06.jpg

kataphraktoi

03-15-2003, 16:14

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/romanclibanarii.jpg

Galestrum

03-16-2003, 06:01

Here is a link on the web i found today, it basically supports what me and elwe are saying heraclius - to sum it up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

What is Byzantine (http://www.romanity.org/htm/fox.01.en.what_if_anything_is_a_byzantine.01.htm)

kataphraktoi

03-16-2003, 15:01

Am I the greatest or what???

Caracalla sealed the meaning of Roman when he granted universal citizenship to all residents in the Empire which extended to the Eastern half of the Empire, being Christian was to be essentially Roman.

I must be the greatest, the fliest super bad fly there is on earth.

Elwe

03-16-2003, 22:34

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Mar. 16 2003,08:01)]Caracalla sealed the meaning of Roman when he granted universal citizenship to all residents in the Empire which extended to the Eastern half of the Empire, being Christian was to be essentially Roman.
Bugger... Kataphraktoi liberated his post http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif. Heraclius, where are yooo... We need to derail this thread again or our dubious renown will be shattered... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Thanks for that, Kataphraktoi. Always good to get supporting arguments that prove I was right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Quote[/b] ]Thus I have no idea what I am talking about, please explain it for me.

Basically, you're saying I was right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Cheers.

Heraclius

03-17-2003, 04:06

*bursts in the door accompanied by ominous music* I'm back. sorry I've been away so long. this time I took a trip for real. more when I return.

Heraclius

03-17-2003, 05:19

Quote[/b] (Elwe @ Mar. 15 2003,02:25)]P.S.:
Interesting side-query. When did the word 'Greek' first enter the world's vocabulary? As I understand it, the Ancient Greeks referred to themselves as Hellenes, no? (This is something I am acyually curious about, as I have no idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )
what's going on with the .org? It's been freezing and loading extremely slowly since my last post. What's wrong?
Anyway here I am. Actually Greek is not a "greek" word but a latin one: Graecus-Graeca-Graecum. We "Greeks" still call ourselves Hellenes and the name of "Greece" is actually the Hellenic Republic. But if your question is when did the Greek speaking peoples realize their shared linguistic/cultural/religious bonds and come up with a name for themselves I believe it was in the 7th century BC when Greek speaking peoples were not recognized solely by which area of Greece they came from but also as a Hellene. However, a person's first loyalty fell overridingly to their city. Thus being an Athenian was one's nationality while being a Hellene was one's race.

Elwe

03-17-2003, 05:52

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 16 2003,22:19)]what's going on with the .org? It's been freezing and loading extremely slowly since my last post. What's wrong?
Anyway here I am. Actually Greek is not a "greek" word but a latin one: Graecus-Graeca-Graecum. We "Greeks" still call ourselves Hellenes and the name of "Greece" is actually the Hellenic Republic. But if your question is when did the Greek speaking peoples realize their shared linguistic/cultural/religious bonds and come up with a name for themselves I believe it was in the 7th century BC when Greek speaking peoples were not recognized solely by which area of Greece they came from but also as a Hellene. However, a person's first loyalty fell overridingly to their city. Thus being an Athenian was one's nationality while being a Hellene was one's race.
Thanks, that clears that up for me. I was aware that Hellenes called themselves such about 700 BC, but didn't know that you still refer to yourselves as such http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif That's the problem with 'westernising' names http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Ok, so to sum up... the Empire of the Romans was Roman as a culture* and Hellene as a race. How does that sound? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

*(I'd say nationality, but the concept of nationalism didn't appear until the late Rennaisance... but thats a matter for another discussion)

A modern comparison with me would be: I am Australian by culture/nationality, and Anglo-saxon by race. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Cheers.

Heraclius

03-17-2003, 06:02

the argument continues. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I would argue that Byzantine culture is quite different from Roman culture. Byzantine culture in my opinion was based supremely on religion specifically Greek Orthodoxy. I'd say that the most signifigant difference between the two lies in art. Roman art was mostly represented in the form of statues depicting pagan or historical figures and stories while Byzantine art was limited by ecclessiastical (damn the spelling) law to two dimensional painted representations of Christian religious figures.
As for religion, language and architecture the differences are quite obvious. The only big cultural "thing" that both the Romans and Byzantines shared was a propensity for writing history although Byzantine religious treatises far outnumber anything else written in that era as opposed to the Romans who also wrote poetry and legends and let writings about religion slide.

Elwe

03-17-2003, 06:10

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 16 2003,23:02)]the argument continues. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I would argue that Byzantine culture is quite different from Roman culture. Byzantine culture in my opinion was based supremely on religion specifically Greek Orthodoxy. I'd say that the most signifigant difference between the two lies in art. Roman art was mostly represented in the form of statues depicting pagan or historical figures and stories while Byzantine art was limited by ecclessiastical (damn the spelling) law to two dimensional painted representations of Christian religious figures.
As for religion, language and architecture the differences are quite obvious. The only big cultural "thing" that both the Romans and Byzantines shared was a propensity for writing history although Byzantine religious treatises far outnumber anything else written in that era as opposed to the Romans who also wrote poetry and legends and let writings about religion slide.
Ok.. I'll try a different tack.

What are you, Heraclius? Are you a Greek (as you say, derived from the latin Graecum), or are you an Hellene?

My argument is that they called themselves Roman, whereas it was rennaisance historians that coined the term Byzantines (a derivative of a name for the city that had not been in use since 350-odd AD).

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Heraclius

03-17-2003, 06:23

the two are the same. Greek=Hellene. a different word for the same thing. when I speak English i am a greek but when I speak "Greek" I am a Hellene. It looks like we might just have to agree to disagree but I'll keep going. (btw I've forgotten what the original thread was about. ah well I feel less guilty about my crimes that way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
I understand what you are saying but my point is that in this case it doesn't really matter what they called themselves. It was a fantasy that they were in fact Romans: different language, culture etc. that's what I was trying to illustrate with the sheep's leg story. My point is that just because the Byzantines called themselves Roman's doesn't make it so. its comparable, in fact, to my dear grandmother, who believed herself to be descended from Alexios, calling herself Maria Comnenos.
I think that the two empires need to be separated because of their fundamental differences and the term Byzantine, actually coined in the 19th century I believe, is ideal.

Elwe

03-17-2003, 06:40

Maybe we will have to agree to disagree http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

My point was, and I think you understand, that there was a direct succession (using the accepted practices of the 'Romans&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif of Emperors from the early first century AD to the fall of Constantinople, all calling themselves Emperor (Basilius) of the Romans. Yes, the culture changed, but they regarded themselves as the same political entity.

T'was fun, mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Think we need to go find another thread to hijack http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Cheers

Heraclius

03-17-2003, 06:44

true, it was a blast. now we just have to keep very, very quite and let Galestrum post when he thinks we're not around. Then BAM we jump like lions on a helpless zebra and post away about anything whether it be football, or semantics or history. poor old galestrum will never know what hit him. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Elwe

03-17-2003, 07:05

That sounds like a plan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Well, this last hijack consisted of somantics and history, so that leaves football for another thread... but I'm not really a follower of football (can you blame me with a team like the Aus team&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif... hmm, what else? How about cricket? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Hey, Galestrum... be good and start a new thread for us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers.

Heraclius

03-17-2003, 07:09

ooooooh. great news. a junior patron called komninos has joined the org of course he's a greek and I think I'll take him under my wing. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif eeeeeech cricket? to be honest give me one tiny, insignificant deviation from the normal topic of a thread and I can take it anywhere. anything excpet cricket though saw it played on Corfu once and did not understand it at all. btw don't you have a pretty healthy greek population down in Aussie land and even one or two on the national team?

Elwe

03-17-2003, 07:24

Quote[/b] (Galestrum @ Mar. 15 2003,23:01)]Here is a link on the web i found today, it basically supports what me and elwe are saying heraclius - to sum it up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

What is Byzantine (http://www.romanity.org/htm/fox.01.en.what_if_anything_is_a_byzantine.01.htm)
Hmm.. just read that document. Very informative, thanks mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers.

Elwe

03-17-2003, 07:27

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 17 2003,00:09)]ooooooh. great news. a junior patron called komninos has joined the org of course he's a greek and I think I'll take him under my wing. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif eeeeeech cricket? to be honest give me one tiny, insignificant deviation from the normal topic of a thread and I can take it anywhere. anything excpet cricket though saw it played on Corfu once and did not understand it at all. btw don't you have a pretty healthy greek population down in Aussie land and even one or two on the national team?
Poor komninos... someone warn him to stay away from you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Nothing wrong with cricket At least that's a game where Aussies dominate the world http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yes, Australia has a substantial Greek community... unfortunately, the vast majority of Greek football (soccer) fans out here seem (at least to me) to be hooligans. (No offence intended http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)

When it comes to sport, I prefer to watch a game, not be concenrned about a riot starting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Cheers.

Galestrum

03-17-2003, 08:34

heraclius you are just being a silly greek that doesnt want to give kudos to the romans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

It does matter what people call themselves, who knows better about a people than themselves? Thats like me saying to you "hey heraclius you silly fool, your not really a greek, you just call yourself that, i think you are a teutonic mongol chia pet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Point me to a an exact date when the Roman Empire became the Byzantine empire? you cant, and if you do you are just making something up.

You say things have changed, but cultures evolve, its as simple as that. In the US, before the civil war, ammericans thought of themselves as members of a union of states, and had loyalty to their state as much or more as to their idea of the US, they were a rural society, isolationist in foriegn affairs, slavery was institutionalized and so many different things from america today, yet we are now and were then americans. Now if some ass clown 500 years from now decides to call pre civil war america the Anglo-American union id have to kick his arse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

The byzantines are an unbroken link in every way right back to Augustus - the very fact that there is no eyepopping jawdropping date/event/announcement shows exactly my point to be true, societies evolve - merely because they do evolve does not mean the polity (rome) ceased to exist.

England was founded in 1066 and is an unbroken polity to the current day - you gonna tell the english they arent english =P

Rome was far more than a city, it was an idea, a state of being, and the byzantines were roman in every way shape and form.

I like your story but it is a false analogy, if your grandma isnt a comnenus' than she was living in fantasy land http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif but the byzantines knew exactly who they were - they were romans.

Your greek analogy and grandma story is actually better linked to those silly franks in the holy roman empire, that had no links whatsoever to rome, but decided they liked the name http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Galestrum

03-17-2003, 08:46

Also Heraclius, the roman empire was a governmental polity, it never ended, there was no war that destroyed the roman empire and the greeks said "hey lets form our own little country" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

going by your logic a further step, the egyptians of 300 ad werent romans, they spoke a different language, had a different religions, culture, etc, etc. they were romans though, because they were under the polity known as rome. When rome became an empire and granted citizenship to non romans and non italians, rome became more than a city - to be roman was an idea and a people(s) that lived under the auspices of the empire.

Until you can point to a definitive date - where the government of Rome was destroyed/dismantled/abosrbed by some other alien government - your byzantine argument just doesnt hold water.

Furthermore, the only reason some french guy called the roman empire "byzantine" was probably because he had too much wine and couldnt wrap his head around the thought that an empire could last 1500 years http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

historians call the later roman empire byzantine - in order to break it up for convenience - nothing more, just like we break up ages of history - people didnt wake up one day and go "holy crap today is the first day of the high middle ages" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

kataphraktoi

03-17-2003, 15:47

Here's a new angle:

Romans adopted Greek Culture and were Hellenised but were still Romans

Romans who were Hellenised adopted the Christianity as fusion of Hellenic philosophy and Jewish fundamentalism and yet they were still Romans

Romans then adopted the Greek language for practical purposes and yet were still Romans

Romans lived as Romans and died as Romans, the idea of denying Byzantine as ROman is due to Western European prejudice, think about it my friends, did not the Pope seize illegally the authority to bestow upon anyone the Roman Crown? BLASPHEMY OF THE IMPIOUS KIND When the Chruch schism of 1054 occured it made the Eastern Romans more pronounced as an Eastern entity rather than Roman, add that to Western predujice and hey Crapola we have to beat up the Pope for being naughty.

The Pope is usurper of the Roman name, illegally seized.

Besides the Romans were the best of both worlds:
As ROMANS THEY WERE THE PRACTICAL PEOPLE WHO CREATED A GREAT MILITARY ORGANISATION.
As converted Hellenes they turned Greek Culture into a universal phenomenon.

Why can't one be Roman and Greek eh?

If all modren greeks called themselvs Romanoi mixing the taditons of Rome and Greece you fellas will ger Constantinople from the Turks. by denying your ROman heritage you forfeit Istanbul to the Turks, even the Turks acknowledge it is Roman

Won;t it be wonderful world when Hagia Sophia becomes a Cathedral again???

Well you might need a UN resolution and some mega firepower but hey it can be donel, you got to use ROman know how, a bit of elbow grease and a gladius will get u there.

Elwe

03-17-2003, 22:32

Wow... I'm part of a majority for once.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Cheers.

kataphraktoi

03-18-2003, 14:34

What Majority, the Moral Majority or Benny Hinn's bible club???

Heraclius

03-18-2003, 17:59

uugh. sorry for my long absence. the damn train food poisoned me apparently. been throwing up for quite a while but I'm fully recovered now.
hmmmmm. I've been reading your posts and it seems my back is against the wall. Although a part of my Greek nationalistic brain is crying out "wait stop this isn't fair" the rest is finding myself agreeing with you three gentleman. How about we settle for a compromise (which I think Elwe might have proposed before but I'm too lazy to check): that the Roman Empire did stretch in an unbroken line from Augustus right down to COnstantine the XI Palaiologos.
The "Byzantine" Empire had say a Hellenic and Greek Orthodox Culture but a mostly Roman system of government, they were the same political entity. The "Byzantine" Empire was Roman but for conveniences sake we could divide the Roman Empire into two eras: I'm not sure of a name for the first one but it could be the Imperial Roman Era, something like that, and the Byzantine Era.
In my mind I see three possible points for this division: the founding of Constantinople by Constantine the Great, the loss of Rome for the Empire, or the accession of Heraclius to the throne who made Greek the Empire's language and turned its focus permanently to the east. What do you guys think?

Galestrum

03-18-2003, 19:59

I think you are stubborn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Koukos

03-18-2003, 20:29

Just a small addition .

I am from Greece ( Hellas) but I dont consider that all modern greeks have anything to do with the ancient ones.

My view is that anyone that reads and understand Ancient Greek Philosophy and adopts the meanings behinds it has the right to call himself Greek. Its as simple as that. Being Greek is a way of thinking and not being born in a specific geographical area. In my view Romans were conquered and not conquerers of Greece. They adopted many Greek values ( the language among other things). This was a good thing as they had the military power to spread these ideas to the known world at that time. ( mostly Europe who was still very much behind) just like Alexander did towards minor asia as far as India .

Thanks

Koukos

Heraclius

03-18-2003, 20:57

not sure if I agree with you Koukos but its nice to see another Greek wandering the forums. How many is that now? 5?

Elwe

03-18-2003, 22:33

I will accept that compromise, Heraclius. We can call it the Byzantine era, simply for ease of differentiating it from the ancient period, and the political body remains known as the Roman Empire. Now we just need to convert the rest of the .org http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Koukos. I don't know that I'd say the were 'conquered' by the Hellenes.. but yes, the Romans did adopt many Hellenistic values. That could be because for a long time the Italian peninsula was predominantly made up of Hellene Colony-cities. The city of Rome grew up with heavy Hellene/Phoenician influences all around it. It couldn't help but take on many of those values. I would argue, however, that this happened long before Rome began expanding it's empire.

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Heraclius

03-18-2003, 22:38

nicely put. I agree with you.

P.S- Elwe, how do you pronounce your name? Is it Elway or Elwee or something else? just curious

Elwe

03-18-2003, 22:46

If I spelled pet as p-eh-t,
then Elwe would be Eh-lw-eh.

And nice to have you agree with me for once, Heraclius http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Heraclius

03-18-2003, 22:49

Me? Stubborn? Me? disagree? How dare you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif So does Elwe mean anything in particular? Is it an aborigine name or did you make it up? just curious.

Koukos

03-18-2003, 23:01

Quote[/b] (Elwe @ Mar. 18 2003,15:33)]I would argue, however, that this happened long before Rome began expanding it's empire.
Ok then here is a thought..... what if They didnt conquer Greece in the beggining but at the end. Would it be the same?

Elwe

03-18-2003, 23:27

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 18 2003,15:49)]Me? Stubborn? Me? disagree? How dare you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif So does Elwe mean anything in particular? Is it an aborigine name or did you make it up? just curious.
Yes, you are stubborn, and yes, you do disagree... often http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Elwe, also known as Thingol, is the name of the Lord of the Elven-realm of Doriath in Beleriand, from Tolkiens' The Silmarillion. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Very very good book.

Cheers.

Elwe

03-18-2003, 23:36

Quote[/b] (Koukos @ Mar. 18 2003,16:01)]Ok then here is a thought..... what if They didnt conquer Greece in the beggining but at the end. Would it be the same?
By 'Would it be the same', I assume you mean the Roman Empire. I would say mostly. For a very long time, during Rome's infancy, most of southern Italy and Sicily was dominated by the Hellene colonies. Rome would have had extensive trading ties with these states, as well as the other Latin states in northern Italy (the Etruscans for one). The two 'cultures' were actually extremely simmilar.

I'd say that he Empire absorbed the Hellenistic city-states, rather than conquered them. There was fighting involved, yes, but most aspects of the two cultures were very simmilar (as compared to, say, Ceasars' conquering of Gaul).

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Heraclius

03-19-2003, 01:32

Quote[/b] (Elwe @ Mar. 18 2003,16:27)]
Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 18 2003,15:49)]Me? Stubborn? Me? disagree? How dare you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif So does Elwe mean anything in particular? Is it an aborigine name or did you make it up? just curious.
Yes, you are stubborn, and yes, you do disagree... often http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Elwe, also known as Thingol, is the name of the Lord of the Elven-realm of Doriath in Beleriand, from Tolkiens' The Silmarillion. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Very very good book.

Cheers.
never been able to stand Tolkien actually. The movies weren't too bad though.

Elwe

03-19-2003, 02:23

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 18 2003,18:32)]never been able to stand Tolkien actually. The movies weren't too bad though.
Sacrilege http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

But I'll have to disagree. You understated the movies... they weren't 'not too bad', they were extremely well done http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Edit: typo moster strikes again]

Heraclius

03-19-2003, 04:46

you fell right into my trap, Elwe Who's disagreeing with who now? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif But I really do find Tolkien unreadable. I know he was trying to imitate the great Anglo-Saxon epics (Beowulf translated by Seamus Heaney, for example, which I read and liked) but he just can't pull it off in my mind.

Elwe

03-19-2003, 04:56

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 18 2003,21:46)]you fell right into my trap, Elwe
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Haven't read Beowulf. I am aware of Tolkiens' intentions, but It's never been a reason for my like. I suppose you could say I was weened on Tolkien (had the Hobbit and LotR read to me when I was a kid).

I just think that his work is amazing. To each his own http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

{Edit: someone shoot that damn typo monster]

Rosacrux

03-19-2003, 14:53

Elwe-Heraclius

I think you two should marry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif you seem to get along awfully well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

kataphraktoi

03-19-2003, 15:35

Like all modern balkans nations, they had to rediscover their roots and heritage, in this case the Greeks of the 19th century nationalist and independence movements looked to ancient greece rather than the byzantines.

Whereas the Byzantines looked to the Romans rather than the ancient greeks?

why?

Onward to Istanbul, I predict by the year 2020 Constantine XI will rsie from his grave and lead us Constantinople. not.....

Heraclius

03-19-2003, 19:13

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Mar. 19 2003,08:35)]Like all modern balkans nations, they had to rediscover their roots and heritage, in this case the Greeks of the 19th century nationalist and independence movements looked to ancient greece rather than the byzantines.

Whereas the Byzantines looked to the Romans rather than the ancient greeks?

why?

Onward to Istanbul, I predict by the year 2020 Constantine XI will rsie from his grave and lead us Constantinople. not.....
well I'm not sure I agree with this, kataphraktoi. Some of the elite of Greek society and members of the diaspora may have looked back to the ancient greeks as their model but this was overidingly done by their European supporters, who were quite surprised when they came to Greece and met the locals. Some Europeans even left in disgust at the dishonesty, trickiness, craftiness etc of the Greek warlords and merchants After all the rival Greek factions spent almost as much time cheating and fighitng each other as they did fighitng the Turks.
I'm sure some Greeks just wanted an independent or autonomous country but in my mind most wanted to recreate the Byzantine Empire, which they considered themselves the direct descendants of. This was how the Megali Idea (the Great Idea) was born, which led to the constant expansion of Greece at the expense of Turkey and sometimes Bulgaria, until the Great Idea was scrapped after the invasion of Turkey and the Great Disaster in 1922.

Heraclius

03-19-2003, 19:15

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Mar. 19 2003,07:53)]Elwe-Heraclius

I think you two should marry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif you seem to get along awfully well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif but Elwe is getting married in a few days and my girlfriend would probably object too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Elwe

03-19-2003, 22:30

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ Mar. 19 2003,12:15)]
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Mar. 19 2003,07:53)]Elwe-Heraclius

I think you two should marry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif you seem to get along awfully well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif but Elwe is getting married in a few days and my girlfriend would probably object too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Yeah, my future wife would be pretty upset, too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

kataphraktoi

03-20-2003, 13:28

the Diasporan Greeks considered themselves still Roman, in fact a descendant of the last Emperor's brother carried the title Imperator Constantinopolitan The idea of ebing Roman was certainly strong.
But then again Byzantium was always a screwed place wasn;t it?????? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Elwe getting married
congrats fellow noble of the Anatolian aristocracy

Lets all adopt Eastern Roman names in honour of this ocassion - i will call myself Theodore Simocatta meaning "flat nosed cat"

Heraclius

03-20-2003, 17:26

I'll call a priest and arrange a baptism if you'd like, Theodore the flat-nosed cat. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Elwe

03-20-2003, 22:24

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Mar. 20 2003,06:28)]Elwe getting married
congrats fellow noble of the Anatolian aristocracy

Lets all adopt Eastern Roman names in honour of this ocassion - i will call myself Theodore Simocatta meaning "flat nosed cat"
Thank you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

And I would, but my Greek is a tad rusty... (In otherwords, I barely know any&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

kataphraktoi

03-21-2003, 04:04

I will call you Turmach Alexius Pogonatus(the bearded) or you can be called Basil Copronymus (droppings)

choose wisely.

Elwe

03-21-2003, 04:18

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Mar. 20 2003,21:04)]I will call you Turmach Alexius Pogonatus(the bearded) or you can be called Basil Copronymus (droppings)

choose wisely.
But... I don't have a beard... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Galestrum

03-21-2003, 05:00

Hey kata, i am rereading a book covering Roman empire from 600-1025 basically herclius to basil, and got all motivated to do a mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

from what i understand you can make new units correct? i dont mind doing some research and doing the startpos for the mod if you want some help/collaberation?

i personally want to have a mod around the time of the islamic conquests circa 650-700 somewhere in there (ill find a good date) and perhaps another starting in 863 (beginning of the major byzantine offensives)

you interested? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

kataphraktoi

03-21-2003, 05:18

Galestrum you can:

mod the existing units eg, change their appearance, weapons or horse mounts

or you can make brand new units from scratch

I already made a mod starting from 713 the year the Muslims advancing for a second crack at Constantinople, haven;t finished it but I will post some screenies later so u can see the prpgress. This is called the "Age of the Khalifah" the best part about this is being outnumbered by the Arabs who also have a kick-ass fleet to attack your western outposts.

Here's the lowdown
Byzantine territories circa 713
Constantinople, Crimea, Nicaea, Anatolia, Trebizond, Rum, Crete, Rhodes, Sicily, Papal States, Venice and Sardinia

The balkans are lost in this period, your navy based in Constantinople and Venice is stretched so that it can;'t face the Arab navy efficiently, Cyprus is a neutral condominium between ByZ AND Arabs, Crete and Sicily are strategic islands exposed as is Sardinia, in the remaining Exarchate of Ravenna you face a rebellious Papacy and a the Lombards. You face the ambitions of the Franks to the north, in the Balkans area your enemies and contestants are the Bulgars(thats right pagan turks) and the Avars who have a special advantage in horsearchers. To the East are the overwhelmingly large Arab armies on your frontier, your treasury is small to begin since 713 is the year when the revolutions and civil wars of the Byzantines stopped, whereeas the Arabs start off with a cool 30,000 florins.
As Leo(replaces Alexius) you have to hold together your fragmented empire, defend it against the Arabs and contest the Balkans with the new powers as well as retaining your western outposts which are incidentally quite rich.

I will be glad to help in anyway especially unit modding

The worst thing about mods is changing the text files.grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

my hitlist projects were originally but never eventuated

AD 800 Charlemagne
AD 976 Start of Basil's reign ( i want to recreate the civil war and the arrival of the Varangian Guards )