Napoleonic Mod [Archive]

Lord Krazy

03-10-2003, 17:13

Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Mar. 09 2003,23:10)]LK,

What exactly are you planning on in terms of how far your going with this mod. What do you need help with -

1) creating more units
2) prod11/build13/projstats
3) images/icons/buildings (tech tree stuff)
4) loc/eng file changes
5) startpos file changes
6) a new campaign map
7) researching the Nap era

There may be a relatively easy way to do 1) above - creating new units (with different colours for, say, trousers, stripes, epaulettes, plumes etc ) based on your original 7 bifs (same ideas I had with the Lords Romans).

Enough people understand enough of the 3 files in 2) - but it still means a lot of changes to prod11 (in fact almost a complete rewrite).

Major changes to 3) will be required for a Nap mod 'cos it means changing almost everything in MTW so you'll need a few people working on this alone. Still, these changes can be ongoing over time as per Patrician.

If you planning major changes as per 4), 5) and 6) then let me know. A lot of this should be relatively straightforward now.

7) should be straightforward enough. Just a case of changing the prod files really to present more firepower and less melee differences.

Let me know what your planning and I'll see if I can assist in some of the parts - other parts I'll be steering well clear of http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Welly
Let me see what did you leave out ?

Nothing

Good

Making the new units we can do at at a reasonable pace.
The icons and such are not an issue really.
That does not mean others are not welcome.
We don't want to monopolise we just want to make it work.
At present it's an open shop open ended project.
How far do we want to go?
A campaign from 1700 to 18 something
With the major powers at the time
France Britian_Hanover Austro_Hungarian
Prussian Russian Spanish Turks
you get the idea.
As we know they all loved each other
and like to visit regularly.

The projects you are working on will aid this project
no end.I'v already taken into account these factors.

4, 5, 6 and 7
are more the things we need help with

Your involvement would be more than welcome
to say the least.

Thanks

regards

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Lord Krazy

03-10-2003, 17:19

Quote[/b] (Dramicus @ Mar. 09 2003,22:46)]Im too lazy to actually try them out, why dont you post some screens of battle? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Bad excuse but however http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://mysite.freeserve.com/lordkrazy/images/7-picture2.gif

Wellington

03-10-2003, 17:41

LK,

I'll send you an E-mail with an image or 2 (jpeg's - not too big)

Welly

Knight_Yellow

03-10-2003, 17:49

Those are sweet pics.

im looking forward to this1 very mutch

just a thought will the brittish have a "thin red line" formation or a bonus if they do? since i belive that was the standard formation.

Baron von Beer

03-10-2003, 18:01

My those are strange looking knights... with those sticks that make a flash, and knock a man down from across the field... sureley it is the Devil at work

Well, if it is.. being evil has never been so good

Ming the Merciless

03-10-2003, 20:23

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif Wow

This has got to be the most promising mod I've ever seen for Medieval I always wanted someone to do this theme. Really looking forward to this one

Lord Krazy: When do you think it will be finished?

Also, what are you planning in the way of artillery? I would really like to see a galloper-gun (you know a horse-drawn light cannon which can move and deploy) and I think it would fit in with the time period, Is this possible?

Thanks for such great work LK

Dramicus

03-10-2003, 21:38

Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Mar. 09 2003,23:10)]Because in that case you'd probably also be too lazy to look at the screen shots. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
true, true......

LK: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif NICE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif those are SWEET, errm, maybe I should try em out.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Dramicus

03-10-2003, 21:56

err, im getting errors for all of the new inf, something to do with the actions in the texture folder...
All i did was back up all the folders which were involved and then extracted your mod...

help plz

edit: and I get an error message when it starts up that says something about the english light inf being invalid, they dont show up for selection either...

Lord Krazy

03-10-2003, 22:53

Quote[/b] ]err, im getting errors for all of the new inf, something to do with the actions in the texture folder...
All i did was back up all the folders which were involved and then extracted your mod...

help plz

edit: and I get an error message when it starts up that says something about the english light inf being invalid, they dont show up for selection either...

I screwed up the directories names maybe.
Add the file manualy for the moment.
I'll update it soon with a few more units
and sort out other problems such as this too.

The files work on my pc so it should just be a directory
problem.

That's what you get for being lazy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Lord Krazy

03-10-2003, 22:55

This is what they look like.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/lordkrazy/images/5-picture1.gif

Knight_Yellow

03-10-2003, 22:58

just a thought but can we get some highland regiments?

i mean plenty scotts fought for old britania in their own regiments.

Lord Krazy

03-10-2003, 23:10

I see the problem I gave you the wrong prod11
just add an EnglishLightInfantry

copy the line from the arqubusier and just change the name
if this is too hard wait for the update http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Brother Derfel

03-10-2003, 23:29

OOOhhhhh cool 95th rifles there LK Lol, you could have a hero Richard Sharpe (anyone else read the Bernard Cornwell novels?)

And Knight Yellow has a point, there were a great many Scotish regiments, and a third of the British army at the time was actualy Irish

This looks fantastic, best and most promising Mod i have seen so far.

If you do some Imperial Guard Marmaluks I will love you for ever (well at least be happy for a while) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Lord Krazy

03-10-2003, 23:47

How about mamluk scots http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://mysite.freeserve.com/lordkrazy/images/8-picture2.gif

Dramicus

03-10-2003, 23:59

Found it

Had to use my 1337 moding skillz but I found and fixed the prob...

you had a folder called "Actionpages" where it needed to be named "ActionsPage" .... nothing big, but it does stop the anyone from using it.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Knight_Yellow

03-11-2003, 00:56

now cumon u know u have to have at least 1 guy with a bag pipe now or maybe a bag pipe unit -2 moral to the enemy maybe?

Lord Of Storms

03-11-2003, 01:18

LK I am currently assisting Welly on a Holyland mod in conjunction with LMM devolopment, but if you need someone to work in Startpos/Names etc. I am your man after all you need someone to change the stuff in the "curly brackets" LOL http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Big%20Thumb%20Up.gif

Lord Krazy

03-11-2003, 04:20

Quote[/b] (Dramicus @ Mar. 10 2003,16:59)]Found it

Had to use my 1337 moding skillz but I found and fixed the prob...

you had a folder called "Actionpages" where it needed to be named "ActionsPage" .... nothing big, but it does stop the anyone from using it.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Well done you see your not that lazy after all.

It was not meant for the anyones
but I get your point. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Your very demanding for a lazy person http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Alrowan

03-11-2003, 04:50

ooohhhhhhhhhhh

that looks awesome.. we need to play some online

Lord Krazy

03-11-2003, 05:14

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Mar. 10 2003,17:56)]now cumon u know u have to have at least 1 guy with a bag pipe now or maybe a bag pipe unit -2 moral to the enemy maybe?
Why just the enemy? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

A bagpipe unit could be made
but I'm not going to as I have better things to do
thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Like dancing cannons http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Lord Krazy

03-11-2003, 05:40

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Mar. 10 2003,21:50)]ooohhhhhhhhhhh

that looks awesome.. we need to play some online
You just need someone with the same set of file.
Ones that work that is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I don't supose you have a map
of Waterloo by any chance? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

SOS thanks I'll be in touch.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Lord Krazy

03-11-2003, 06:07

Quote[/b] (Brother Derfel @ Mar. 10 2003,16:29)]a third of the British army at the time was actualy Irish
I know of the these Irish regiments
Name followed by regiment number

Royal Irish 18

Inniskilling 27

Royal County Down 86

The Prince of Wale's Own Irish 87

The Connaught Rangers 88

The Prince of Wale's Tipperary 99

His royal bla bla bla The County of Dublin 100

The Duke of Yorks Irish regiment 101

That's 8 out of 104 I know of
Which is less than 10%

This is what I know it does not mean I'm right.
Just wondering what you base your ratio on?

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Alrowan

03-11-2003, 11:52

well i got bored and changed all the european battle music to fit the Napoleonic era.. bagpipes piping, whistles blowing, drumms rolling... the whole lot. If you want it its only a small 7MB so ill see where i can dump it for download

Dramicus

03-11-2003, 17:18

Quote[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Mar. 10 2003,21:20)]Your very demanding for a lazy person http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
ohh, now your asking for it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Brother Derfel

03-11-2003, 20:48

Wellington

03-11-2003, 21:56

Quote[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Mar. 10 2003,23:07)]
Quote[/b] (Brother Derfel @ Mar. 10 2003,16:29)]a third of the British army at the time was actualy Irish
I know of the these Irish regiments
Name followed by regiment number

Royal Irish 18

Inniskilling 27

Royal County Down 86

The Prince of Wale's Own Irish 87

The Connaught Rangers 88

The Prince of Wale's Tipperary 99

His royal bla bla bla The County of Dublin 100

The Duke of Yorks Irish regiment 101

That's 8 out of 104 I know of
Which is less than 10%

This is what I know it does not mean I'm right.
Just wondering what you base your ratio on?

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
LK,

Correct, but let's not forget the cavalry -

- 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards
- 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons
- 18th King's Irish Hussars

BD,

Whilst there is no doubt that the numbers of Irish and Scottish soldiers (and perhaps also Welsh) who served in the British Army during the Napolionic wars was a far greater per-quota ratio for their nationalities ...

... the proportion of Irishmen in the British Army has NEVER approached a figure of 33% - or anything near.

If you consider the populations of England/Wales, Ireland and Scotland during this period you'll arrive at a ratio of roughly 80:10:10 for the nationalities mentioned above.

There is no doubt that both the Irish and Scottish contributed far greater numbers per head of population. I would suggest (very roughly speaking) an average of around -

- 15% for Irish recruits
- approaching 20% for Scottish recruits
- the remaining 85% being English or Welsh

Very commendable considering the times, but nowhere near approaching 33%

In deference to the quality of the Irish and Scottish recruits who fought in Wellingtons armies (that is - THE Wellington - not me&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif there is no doubt they were tough opponents and aquitted themselves well when in the brunt of it.

Welly

Welly

Old Templar

03-11-2003, 22:59

LK - you mentioned earlier the Mod will cover the time period 1700 (Seven-Year-War) to 1800 (Napolonic Wars)- Is this correct? Are you collecting information on the Seven-Year-War as well? Perhaps, I can help. Appropriate maps you can find: http://www.euroatlas.com/time/nw1700.htm and "../nw1800.htm". This not a LINK. I am sorry, but I do not know how to make it a Link for direct use here.

Wellington

03-11-2003, 23:08

Quote[/b] (Old Templar @ Mar. 11 2003,15:59)]LK - you mentioned earlier the Mod will cover the time period 1700 (Seven-Year-War) to 1800 (Napolonic Wars)- Is this correct? Are you collecting information on the Seven-Year-War as well? Perhaps, I can help. Appropriate maps you can find: http://www.euroatlas.com/time/nw1700.htm and "../nw1800.htm".
No such links ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Ming the Merciless

03-11-2003, 23:46

So when do you think the mod will be out? As either a beta or finished thing?

BTW what are you going to have in the way of artillery?

I was a bit disappointed the next total war game wasn't going for the napoleonic wars (but I have to admit the screenshots for Rome TW look very good)

Keep up the good work LK

Lord Krazy

03-12-2003, 08:33

Quote[/b] ]The ratio came from the Osprey book on wellingtons infantry i think. It doesn;t just refer to the actual Irish regiments, but also the fact that a good deal of English and Scotish regiments also had irish soldiers in their ranks. Wide spread poverty in Ireland at the time forced many young men into the army of their 'hated' oppressors

That would mean that twice as many Irish soldiers
served in english and scottish regiments
than in irish regiments, including the cavalry.
I don't think so.
Like Welly mentioned the Irish percentage never reached
33%, by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote[/b] ]- 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards
- 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons
- 18th King's Irish Hussars

I didn't forget them they just don't make odds to the
argument.

The 18th and the 8th were (light dragoon) hussars
but I tought the 8th was the
The King's Royal Irish (light dragoons)Hussars

Quote[/b] ]If you consider the populations of England/Wales, Ireland and Scotland during this period you'll arrive at a ratio of roughly 80:10:10 for the nationalities mentioned above

That would mean that the famine never took place
in Ireland.Or the population of England was around
80 million.Either way I can't agree.I know for a
fact the famine took place.I know for fact that the population was never 80 million.

If you consider the British census at the time
accounted for about 8 million and they never
bother to do it certain places,
(like where the natives lived) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
God only knows how many people lived in Ireland
at the time.The mortality and emigration rates
for the period dictated that at least 7 million
people lived in Ireland in this period.
It is estimated that 50% of the population
either perished or left due to starvation.
3.5 million is the estimated number
in the late 19th century when the famine period ended
finally. So 20% to 30% population I could believe
but members of the army not.
If you consider the devistating famine period
was not till the 19th century times in Ireland
in the 18th century would have been much better.
If you also consider the fact that the 15th 16th and 17th
centuries in Ireland were abysmal.
Lizzy, Olly, the French guy from Holland
all a bundel of laughs and out to improve
public relations on a grand scale. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I would say fighting for anyone let alone the british wasn't
high on priorities.I know a lot of Irish people have fought for and still fight for the British army but not in great numbers and not soly for ecconomic reasons.
At the Battle of Waterloo for example I know
of only two Irish regiments that fought
that day.Both from Inniskilling , a place then and still
to this day with a very British population.
They did because they got paid and they wanted to.
To my knowledge the fact that so many Irish served in the
British army at the time was due to the fact at lot of Irish
people were around at the time.Remember Dublin was the
second city of the British Empire not Edinburgh
or Cardiff.

The points of view often differ from place to place.
Deciding what the ethnic make up of the British
army could be debated to high heaven as many others.
As for giving one ethnic grouping an advantage
or difference to another that's not on.
If you get 600 Irish guys and 600 english guys
give them the same training the same weapon
line them up on a level playing field
and tell them to open fire, who do you think will
do the more damage?
So musket units will be musket units with the same stats
and Hussars will be Hussars no matter where they come from.

Different regiments can be named as such for each region
drawing from the same source files, so if you had
10 regions in france you could have 10 or more
individualy named regiments.
But the only difference will be weapon, moral, experiance
Leadership and the lay of the land.
Where they come from is not a factor.
____

btw here is a link for an update of the units
here (http://thelordz.co.uk/zips/Napoleonic_Unit_Betas_v1.2.zip)

this one is about 6 megs
The last 7 plus 2 more
and flags and shields for the nations involved.
The flags need to be renamed if you want to use them.
If you don't know how don't use them until you
do ok
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

kyodai-britishbeef

03-12-2003, 10:14

this looks really good, i love the napoleonic era and have a good load of knowledge, but unfortunatly am not talented enough to help you with your mod (my skillz are strictly limited to historical battles and maps), but good luck with it lads , maybe i will make some maps for multiplayer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Lord Krazy

03-12-2003, 10:15

Quote[/b] (Ming the Merciless @ Mar. 11 2003,16:46)]

Quote[/b] ]So when do you think the mod will be out? As either a beta or finished thing?

I told you three days ago that we had started work
on this mod.Now you want too know when it will be finished.

I haven't seen daylight for a while so
when I find out what day it is, I'll do a quick estimation.
Is it still march? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LBA said not tomorrow for sure so check back after that
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I can't honestly say.
All I know is that the team we need to get the
show off the road is already near full strength.
The fact that Welly is all hands on deck
is like having a brigade of dragoons
behind you. So we are confident you will see an offering sooner rather than later.The fact that we have tought long and hard about this means that we already have a sence of
direction and purpose.We are still open for discussion
and inovation but we are not short of ideas or knowledge.

So keep your socks on and I asure you
when we know such things so shall you.

Quote[/b] ]BTW what are you going to have in the way of artillery?

I was thinking cannon myself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Or do you mean how are we going to manouver
them around the vast maps of mtw http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
One option is to make a cavalry unit
give it cannon as a weapon and put cannon in the stand frames.This will enable battaries of cannon also.
I haven't heard too many alternatives. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Quote[/b] ]I was a bit disappointed the next total war game wasn't going for the napoleonic wars (but I have to admit the screenshots for Rome TW look very good)

Well it had to go one way or the other
and we were bound to go the other
as varity is the spice of life http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The screen shots look fantastic
Have you asked when they will be finished btw? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Would you believe it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Anyway the less I sit here chatting to you guy's
the quicker you'll see it.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Thanks for the kind words and it is nice to know other people are as anxious as us to see this
mod work and fill it's potential.

LK

Lord Krazy

03-12-2003, 11:10

Quote[/b] (kyodai-britishbeef @ Mar. 12 2003,03:14)]

Quote[/b] ]but unfortunatly am not talented enough to help you with your mod (my skillz are strictly limited to historical battles and maps),

KB
This is a contradiction in terms.
Your not talented enough to help
yet you are skilled in battles and maps
(to say the least)

What makes you think we do not desire
maps and battles designed for the period.

Quote[/b] ]maybe i will make some maps for multiplayer

Exactly.Then you could write some battles to put on them.

btw if talent was a criteia I would not be here.
I just press the buttons according to the help file
and some thingie in my computer sorts it all out somehow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Work and determination is all I have to offer.
That's all it takes IMHO.
So get to work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

NagatsukaShumi

03-12-2003, 12:04

Hello LK. If i can help you in anyway just drop me a line, i know i am back to making my own MOD but as a thanks for sticking by me in the previous attempts i would like to help you some way, i cant help in anything but making units, changing the map and modding the units stats, i can do Loc Eng, battles, maps and images stuff like that, so if you ever need any help i will be glad to help you out, plus i'm ill at the moment so i need something to do to occupy me while i am actually awake and moving about and not doing my own MOD.

kyodai-britishbeef

03-12-2003, 19:24

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif hehe , ok i see your point LK , i will definetely sort some maps and battles out , and if u require any testing let me know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Ming the Merciless

03-12-2003, 22:45

Well, that put me in my place http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

You should be flattered that I'm so desperate to find out when it will be released

What I meant about artillery, as you guessed, was whether there would be horse artillery, but also whether howizters would be included. Not being a modder myself I wouldn't know if howizters were possible, but you could have a cannonball projectile which explodes into a naptha-like explosion. The explosion time being dependant on crew skill and a random factor.

Oh yeah, erm.. when will it be finished http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

*starts to run knowing he's going to get hit soon*

Wellington

03-12-2003, 23:33

A very quick response in respect of 2 questions that have raised pertaining to this mod -

Q1: I would like to help but I don't know anything What can I do?

A1: Does'nt matter. Whether or not you know anything (as regards MTW modding or the Napolionic era) is totally irrelevant. Knowledge is NOT relevant. Interest, enthusiam and willingness are FAR MORE IMPORTANT. Anyone who wishes to help/contribute WILL be given as much assistance as possible. After all, is'nt this the purpose of such a modders group/forum?

Q2: How long before something is deliverable?

A2: It all depends on yourselves. There are sufficient people already to ensure the success of this mod. All that remains is efficient planning/organisation to ascertain what can be achieved with peoples time/resources.

My own personal opinion is that something entirely different can be provided within a period of 4 to 8 weeks. The more people interested in this mod anmd whom wishto contribute - the shorter the time.

I'll say again (as I always do&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif - we don't care how much you know. This is a modders forum, and as such anyone who has a basic interest or enthusiasm will be assisted as much as possible - and if they ar'nt then I'm a liar

I'll post something in 1 day or 2 in respect of the areas that could use a little investigation in respect of a mod of this undertaking. Whether you are a 'newbie' or someone who knows a little bit about MTW is totally irrevelant.

ENTHUSIASM and WILLINGNESS are important - not knowledge or expertise.

Welly

Lord Of Storms

03-13-2003, 17:44

I have looked at some Napoleonic related sites and I find the period to be very interesting alot of diversity of units and countries involved I am learning alot.http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/riley/787/Napoleon/1809/Essling.jpg

Lord Of Storms

03-13-2003, 17:45

some other related picshttp://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/riley/787/Napoleon/England/Army/1schweredragoner1803mannschaft_castell.jpg http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/riley/787/Napoleon/England/Army/1husarenoffizier_castell.jpg

kyodai-britishbeef

03-14-2003, 20:31

i want to play using these demo units but , how do i do it ? any help would be much appreciated. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Lord Krazy

03-14-2003, 21:09

Quote[/b] (kyodai-britishbeef @ Mar. 14 2003,13:31)]i want to play using these demo units but , how do i do it ? any help would be much appreciated. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Just copy the file to the the same
folder in mtw and that's it.

backup any file to be replaced
and that should be it.

In theory if you get the MTW-Total War.zip
and unzip it with the use folder names tad ticked,
into the Total War directory
Then it should just install.

If you can make a second install of mtw
that would help also.Then you could afford
to make mistakes.

KB mail me
at TheLords@thelordz.co.uk

A Prussian Jaeger unit will be added tonight

Knight_Yellow

03-14-2003, 21:13

guys just wondering earlier today i found a load of files containg the images of all the mtw units.

see if i changed one of the wee guys shields by putting a cross on it would all those units end up with crosses on their shields?

ie. bowman has a shield so if u put a cross would all bowman have that now?

Lord Krazy

03-14-2003, 22:35

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Mar. 14 2003,14:13)]guys just wondering earlier today i found a load of files containg the images of all the mtw units.

see if i changed one of the wee guys shields by putting a cross on it would all those units end up with crosses on their shields?

ie. bowman has a shield so if u put a cross would all bowman have that now?
Yes they are called bif files.
read wellingtons guide to animation.

If you change the shield you change it for
everboby that uses it.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

chilliwilli

03-14-2003, 23:04

Ideas for factions:

1. France
2. Spain
3. Ottoman Empire
4. Russia
5. Kingdom of Two Sicilies
6. Poland/Lithuania(Only in early campaign since they were annexed later)
7. Austria
8. Algeria(need someone to represent Africa and they interacted with Europe more than Tunisia, Morocco, or Tripoli.)
9. Prussia/Bradenburg
10. Venice
11. England
12. Denmark or Sweden(Sweden might be tough considering their provinces are off the MTW map)
13. Netherlands

Main problem will be with the German minors. Will you guys make them rebel territory?

Dramicus

03-15-2003, 00:00

Depending on the time, they will either be French, Prussian or Austrian...

It will be hard to really go into detail with the current map, considering that it was constructed with the middle ages in mind... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

but this cant be helped unless someone wants to go and build a new map...

Lord Krazy

03-15-2003, 09:29

here (http://thelordz.co.uk/zips/Napoleonic_Units_v1.3.zip)
is a link to version 1.3

it contains 10 units

PrussianJaegerInfantry is the extra unit

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gifheretoo (http://thelordz.co.uk/zips/Napoleonic_Units_v1.4.zip)
for v1.4

Knight_Yellow

03-15-2003, 09:33

im using that link now,

god that must suck if uve only got 56k

Lord Krazy

03-15-2003, 10:21

Quote[/b] (Dramicus @ Mar. 14 2003,17:00)]It will be hard to really go into detail with the current map, considering that it was constructed with the middle ages in mind... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

but this cant be helped unless someone wants to go and build a new map...
Maps are being worked on.

As for going into detail, well that's just hard.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Wellington

03-15-2003, 11:12

Quote[/b] (Dramicus @ Mar. 14 2003,17:00)]Depending on the time, they will either be French, Prussian or Austrian...

It will be hard to really go into detail with the current map, considering that it was constructed with the middle ages in mind... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

but this cant be helped unless someone wants to go and build a new map...
There WILL be a new map for this mod. It's already finished

The idea is for Nap mod to become several mods, all based around the Napoleonic era and with limited factions. For example -

- French and Austrians fighting in a campaign based on the North Italian plains (1796)
- French and Russians fighting in Russia (1812)
- French and English (with perhaps SPanish/Portugeuse units) fighting the Peninsula campaign in Spain.

These proposed mods will all incorpoate -

1) New Units
2) New campaign maps
3) An emphasis being placed on tactical campaigns rather than strategic ones

Implicit in this will be a different time scale (days/weeks/months instead of years) and MAJOR changes to the building requirements within MTW - the idea being to reduce the amount of building required in order to get units.

As the scenarios/campaigns will be tactical my idea is to allow creation of ALL units possible for that faction (on the assumption they have entered the area as reinforcements from outside).

I'll post some requirements and a bit more info re the proposed direction in a day or 2,

LK will be downloading more images of the units and the Campaign maps from his site within a few days.

Welly

Alrowan

03-15-2003, 11:31

if you need any maps made, send a request over my way, ill sort it out

kyodai-britishbeef

03-15-2003, 11:51

having just played a few custom battles using the new units , i am totally amazed. i think this mod will be totally excellant, the new units look really good the gun smoke and sound are good when combined with the rate of fire and reload, as well as greater range, the amount of effort that has gone in already is very evident. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

I just hope u guys put the same effort in to the music and sounds to make this mod really great. i am looking forward to seeing some hussars and british cav as well , well done so far and i am eagar to see more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Wellington

03-15-2003, 12:11

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Mar. 15 2003,04:31)]if you need any maps made, send a request over my way, ill sort it out
Alrowan,

You read my thoughts I was writing a quick "who can do what" and your name immediately sprang to ming in terms of adding a bit of 'battlefield map flavour' for creating some different maps based on the provinces for the 1st Nap mod campaign map.

This WILL be challenging The 1st campaign map I have in mind (and is finished) is based around the Italian lakes and encompasses several areas with small/large villages, larger towns, lots of hilly/mountaneous regions, lots of coastal provinces, deltas and much more.

Having your assistance on this 'Nap Mod team' to create something even more special would be phenominal. The tactical campaign map emphasis (as oppose to a campaign map of Europe/Asis/Africa) will undoubtedly provide you with something to really get your teeth into.

Can I suggest you E-mail me - and I'll send back a simple Jpg of the 1st proposed map (only 200K or so) and a link from were to download the actual WWW hires map (3+ meg). Also, I'll indicate a rough idea of where the provinces will be split up on this map.

regards,
Welly

Alrowan

03-15-2003, 14:49

ok, sounds good

just email this adress

the_smphill@hotmail.com

ill get back to you asap.

by he way i have got a music set that may interest you for this mod, though it is 7MB so i may have to send it in separate parts

Dramicus

03-15-2003, 15:02

Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Mar. 15 2003,04:12)]There WILL be a new map for this mod. It's already finished

The idea is for Nap mod to become several mods, all based around the Napoleonic era and with limited factions.

LK will be downloading more images of the units and the Campaign maps from his site within a few days.

Welly
sounds great

Your much further along then I expected, now If we could only get some screenshots... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Alrowan

03-15-2003, 16:20

just looked at the units.. the english inf seem to have the speen on thier animation pumped... they look like theyve been snorting

CBR

03-15-2003, 16:33

Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Mar. 15 2003,10:12)]The idea is for Nap mod to become several mods, all based around the Napoleonic era and with limited factions. For example -

- French and Austrians fighting in a campaign based on the North Italian plains (1796)
- French and Russians fighting in Russia (1812)
- French and English (with perhaps SPanish/Portugeuse units) fighting the Peninsula campaign in Spain.
Ok I'm just a newbie modder so maybe you know more than me..

But I found out you had to have a minimum of 8 factions or MTW will crash (at least in MP/custom battles) Is it different in SP campaign?

CBR

Lord Of Storms

03-15-2003, 17:09

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/riley/787/Napoleon/1806/napjena.jpgNapoleon at Jena

Lord Krazy

03-16-2003, 01:33

Today SOS means
"seriously oversized screenshot" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Knight_Yellow

03-16-2003, 01:36

Any1 else noticed a glitch where if ur in a custom game and u take like 2 units of english line inf and pit them against an army that some of the enemy units have severe graphical glitches?

Byz infantry and fuedal foot knights are the ones ive noticed with this.

just wondering if its just me or a global problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Lord Krazy

03-16-2003, 02:19

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ Mar. 15 2003,09:20)]just looked at the units.. the english inf seem to have the speen on thier animation pumped... they look like theyve been snorting
Yes the word beta springs to mind.
Maybe I should have left it an alfa.
Next time I'll include the 1.2 readme.
That readme stated,

"Please bare in mind this is just a beta for testing"

Not a finished product.This is for the beta testers
if others want to try it well that's fine but
that's not what it is for.I am well aware
of all graphical glitchs as we did
compile them
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

These glitches will be removed and many other things will change too.

The fact that the Prussians and the other English
unit do not walk like this and considering they were
compiled after show that this issue has been resolved.

We are not pro's so why people are expecting
professional work I don't know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
They are far more qualified people out there that
can do this,they just don't unfortuatly.
So untill they do you will have to put up with the crap
TheLords put out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Free Fun but not flawless

TheLords@thelordz.co.uk
is a better forum to discuss such issues
IMHO
Thank you.

Regards,

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Lord Krazy

03-16-2003, 02:31

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Mar. 15 2003,18:36)]Any1 else noticed a glitch where if ur in a custom game and u take like 2 units of english line inf and pit them against an army that some of the enemy units have severe graphical glitches?

Byz infantry and fuedal foot knights are the ones ive noticed with this.

just wondering if its just me or a global problem http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif they just work if you use them against
each other or unit that don't use the
bif that has been replaced.

Quote[/b] ]Byz infantry and fuedal foot knights
versus rifle and musket
Well I didn't really think of that combination
to be quite honest http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

serves you right
pick on someone your own size http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

LK

Wellington

03-16-2003, 02:55

The Nap Units,

The new units that will be available for this Napolenic mod are being redone. I am currently writing a utility that will assist LK/LBA in building the BIFs, generating ActionsPage/Deadpage stuff and getting all it correct (this utility may also offer some degree of automated recolouring in order to create variations on a theme - hence different colours tunics for Hussars, different coloured epaulettes etc:).

The size of the units will probably (don't know yet) be around 70%-80% of the MTW unit size - in order to preserve resolution. This won't matter as the Napolenic mod will ONLY have these units in it - no MTW units.

Therefore any Napoleonic type units that are currently available for download from the Org, whether Beta or whatever, will NOT be the final units that will be provided for this Nap mod.

You will be provided with a completely new set.

Welly

Lord Of Storms

03-16-2003, 05:53

Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Mar. 15 2003,19:55)]The Nap Units,

- hence different colours tunics for Hussars, different coloured epaulettes etc:).

Welly
Within the English infantry of the era The Light(Rifle)Battalions with a GREEN uniform must be differentiated from the line battalions with the RED coat of the English infantry.A company would consist of of just over 90 men including non-comms.and a battalion would consist of up to ten companies(up to 900 muskets strong) with 1 grenadier company.The uniform of the Light Battalions was GREEN with Black collars and facings,shako with cord,black shoulderbelt,long grey trousers. The officers added to their green uniform hussar braid made of black silk, Line battalions all had the same Scarlet uniform with dark blue collars and facings, The uniform of the cavlry of the Legion was especially becoming, Hevy Dragoons wore Scarlet coats with long tails, white trousers,high black boots with strap on spurs. The 1st Regiment had DARK BLUE collars and facings ,the2nd Black ones,2 rows of gold buttons with royal cypher,white shoulder belt cocked hat with red and white plume. Every heavy regiment hat a rectangular,red king's colour, which showed a white rose and a thistle under a king's crown in the middle, On the reverse one could see an Irish cloverleaf with a white scroll with the motto "Honni soit, qui mal y pense". 4 small blue and gold bordered shileds in the corners showed the letters K.G.D (King's German Dragoons) or a white horse. This was taken from a site that was devoted to the soldiers of the Napoleonic era these excerpts were of British soldiers dress and deportment I noticed also how musicians played an important part in the regiments also, drum and bugle corps. I thought it might be of interest.TSOS

Knight_Yellow

03-16-2003, 08:01

no i meant bring 2 units at double size and try to win as the defender on acre against 4 units of pikes 4 valour and 4 units of goth knights 4 valour.

very bloody hard

Lord Krazy

03-16-2003, 12:04

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Mar. 16 2003,01:01)]no i meant bring 2 units at double size and try to win as the defender on acre against 4 units of pikes 4 valour and 4 units of goth knights 4 valour.

very bloody hard
What has that got to do with graphic glitches? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Let's just asume that I actualy put some tought
into the prod11 and projetilestats,which I didn't.
I still think 2 units against 8 and add to that
4 are cavalry the odds are stacked against you.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

They are just samples live with it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
------------------------------------------------------------

It's kinda like this.
We new from the start we could not do this
by ourselves
The only reason we took the decision
to release these samples to the public was to generate
some interest.Seen as all our previsious efforts
were mostly ignored or treated with scepticisim.
Over the last 4 months I have brought up the idea
of this mod on several occasions.Apart from a few
Napoleonic buffs, no one seemed to care other then
the beta testers that saw the units.
So we released the units hoping it would have the same
reaction.So far it look's like it did, even if
it is a confused one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
For that I do take responsibility http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

TheLords announced that were starting
to formulate this project when RTW was made offical.
Last week was the first offer of help we had from
any other modders.
As a result of months of non interest
I was not prepared for the response we have had
in the last week.I have been every concievable
question and the rest in the last week.
From why does the campaign crash to what units
and nations will be in it to when is going to be finished?

I did anticipate the last one.
It's normaly one of the first questions asked http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

So to make some things clear http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

What do you know?
very little

What are you going to do?
alot

When will we know what is going to happen
and what it will look like and how many factions and units
and will cannon move and will there be 3d realtime naval
battles and will the King of England speak German
and if Spain will be catholic expationist
or members of the EC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

When you install the mod.
I never believe anything I read on forums http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Why won't the sample units do this that or the other thing?
because they are samples

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Antalis::

03-16-2003, 12:14

@Lord Krazy:

WOW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Thats fun to play with this units

Go forward it and make a really good mod.
I know that you and a team will make it very well

Thank you for the possibility to play in that time.

This mod and the Patrician mod are the best thing I´ve ever seen.
Please go forward and make a map, cavalary and so on.

Antalis::

Lord Krazy

03-16-2003, 12:16

Quote[/b] ]Within the English infantry of the era The Light(Rifle)Battalions with a GREEN uniform must be differentiated from the line battalions with the RED coat of the English infantry

Have you seen the screenshots on the first page?

Quote[/b] ]an Irish cloverleaf
I don't want to split hairs
but it's called a shamrock.
I don't think clover is Irish.
It's more from all clover the world http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Wellington

03-16-2003, 13:36

Guys,

Factions, units and maps
========================

A few more details just so people understand what is going to be done and why.

Factions
--------

This Nap mod CANNOT offer 20 different factions fighting over a European map - AT THE SAME TIME

The reason is all MTW units are based on images within 34 BIFs - different units are achieved by mixing and matching these images with shields and weapons. The Nap mod WONT be doing this - it can't as the weapons are already drawn on to the images LB/LDA will be using for this mod. Therefore, it will probably be a case of 1 unit per BIF.

As there are a maximum 34 BIFs available in MTW, 4 of which will used for Nap horses - that gives us 30 BIFs from which to create all the units required for 20 factions Can't be done. Therefore, we have to rethink this - which is why I suggest we have several MTW Nap campaigns, all tactical in nature, and each having only a few factions available (2-4 perhaps).

Units
-----

With 2 factions available for any Nap campaign this gives us a maximum 15 BIFs per faction (that is 15 different units per faction) ... which is ample. With 4 factions in any Nap campaign that gives us 7 or 8 different units available per faction - just about enough (but stretching it somewhat).

This is not a problem as throughout the Nap era you never saw more than 4 main Nationalities involved in any one campaign (Austerlizt was the maximum - 4 nationalities).

We may be able to get more than 1 unit in a BIF (from what I've seen of the sample images LB/LKA are going to be using) but I'm not sure yet.

Therefore, we can have a number of "Sets" of BIFs that each relate to the units of a specific faction, as an example -

Set 'A' - BIFs 1-11 = French units
Set 'B' - BIFs 12-23 = British units
Set 'C' - BIFs 24-31 = Prussian units

and

Set 'D' - BIFs 12-21 = Austrian units
Set 'E' - BIFs 22-31 = Russian units

... and so on.

and so on. Note that sets 'B' and 'E' use the BIFs. This is NOT a problem as we won't be offering campaigns that use both these faction (British and Russian) in the same campaign.

Each 'set' of bifs will be downloadable as a complete set (or partial set if the download size is too big).

Maps
----

Each Nap campaign will have its own map, together with 2-4 'Sets' of factions available for that specific Map/campaign. The various map will either be downloadable from the web or be a cropped/resized/renamed version of the MTW maps.

Hence each Nap campaign will comprise, for example -

Waterloo campaign - map of Belgium. French/British/Prussian sets of BIFs/units
Peninsular campaign - map of Spain. French/British sets of BIFs/units
North Italy - tactical maps of North Italy. French/Austrian/Italian sets of BIFs/units

I'll be sending LK some screen shots of the campaign map(s) from which he can add them to this thread via his website.

You should get the rough idea by now. However all of this has to be managed/controlled, so ...

Managing all of this
--------------------

Software will manage most of this. LMM will manage the maps creation and install/backout of each Nap campaign. Recipients of these mods will require LMM to recreate the campaign for you. UM (Unit Modder) is being written now to manage the creation of the BIFs from LK/LBA's plates and the organisation of the various Nationility 'sets' of BIFs.

Conclusion
----------

Hope some of this makes sense and answers some questions. As for which Nationalities and units willbe available I don't know yet as I've only received a few sample plates and don't yet know whats possible.

LK - can you compile a list of 2 things

1) which nationalities are provided for in your plates
2) which unit types, per nationality, are provided for in your plates

... we can then plan this and inform people what 1st offering(s) will be.

I'll write up a list of things to be done in a few days in order to ascertain who can assist with what.

regards
Welly

Knight_Yellow

03-16-2003, 17:13

what i meant was that ive seen some wierd graphical glitches in the byz inf and fuedal foot knights if i field an army of them against 1 or 2 units of line infantry.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Wellington

03-16-2003, 17:38

Quote[/b] (Knight_Yellow @ Mar. 16 2003,10:13)]what i meant was that ive seen some wierd graphical glitches in the byz inf and fuedal foot knights if i field an army of them against 1 or 2 units of line infantry.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
KY,

As LK rightly pointed out - dont worry about that for now in terms of this Nap mod. If your concerned post it on the "Request to Community" thread.

Considering the amount amount of work that is manually required to create MTW bifs (and correct image-rectangles/actions/frames/XY-origins) it's hardly surprising there may (and I say MAY because no has any idea how YOU have modded YOUR version of MTW) be some glitches. As I've said I am busy writing a utility to automate this process so when the 1st offerings are released you won't see any glitches - unless, of course, you've f****d something up.

If you are at a loose end for something to do, and are interested in this Nap mod then here's your starter for 10 -

- we need a short list of different types of Scottish units that fought in the Napoleonic wars. NOT regiments but types of units (maybe 4/5 infantry and 2/3 cavalry). For each different type -

- Line Infantry
- Light Infantry
- Highlanders
- Light Cavalry (hussars/dragoons)
- Heavy Cavalry (scots greys) ... and so on

We need to know the basic differences in dress, weaponry and morale/effectiveness. Hence -

- kilts or trousers etc
- what type of headgear (shako/busbee etc)
- rifles or muskets, effective ranges, reload times etc
- elite unit or line unit?
... and so on

Do you want this research on?

Welly

Lord Krazy

03-16-2003, 20:19

Battalions discharged their guns in a mass volley at targets within 200 yards normaly.
Often men would continue their fire at the rate of one to two rounds per minute. They could fire three or four, but many weapons also misfired, and the smoke from previous discharges often obscured the target from view.Not that they aimed much but it was still nice to see where
the target was.Seen as they fire in mass at large numbers
of troops, it was kind of hard to miss altogeather.
Rifle was more accurate and longer ranges but took longer
to reload, so only really had an advantage atlong range.
Once musket units closed to effective range they were the
one with the advantage with a more rapid rate of fire.
Beyond 100 yards smoothbore musket
was not accurate to say the least.
The first volley was often the most effective because it was loaded with more care and fired with less smoke.
Every soldier had about 50 rounds of ammunition. Musket fire caused most casualties in battle.

This was pretty much standard for the period.
These things vairied from weapon to waepon
and regiment to regiment but not vastly I believe.

The battalion was the main unit of manuver.
It normaly lined up 3 ranks deep.The first two ranks
firing and the third rank passing forward loaded muskets
and filling in the gaps left by casualties.
The British often used two ranks to maximise
firepower but was weaker in defence as a result.
Wellington used 3 rank lines at Waterloo
and 4 ranks at times.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Brother Derfel

03-16-2003, 21:16

The only troops int eh British army that were issued with rifles were the 60th and the 95th. They wore the green jackets. Also certain elements of the Kings German Legion (one or to of the Light infantry regiments) also wore the dark green and carried rifles. The rifles they were issued with were all the standard Baker Rifle, that could be accurate at up to 400yard, but were most effective between 200 and 300 yards. They took nearly twice as long to reload as the normal Brown Bess musket. The rate of fire for British regiments was noted to be hire than that of any other army as they were the only force to train with live amunition and so had more experience when it came to battle situation. The british soldier could average about 3 shots a minuite with other continental armies averaging about 2 shots.

kyodai-britishbeef

03-16-2003, 21:17

here is an excellant site on napoleonic things, and this link will take u to the interestign stuff about the weapons
link (http://www.napoleonguide.com/weapinf.htm)

Wellington

03-16-2003, 21:53

Quote[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Mar. 16 2003,13:19)]Wellington used 3 rank lines at Waterloo
and 4 ranks at times.
I did no such thing ... I'm not so old http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I did play Naps at the Sheffield Triples (UK figure wargaming championships/knockout) 3 years running, 1986-88, and fielded my Russian Army on all 3 occasions - just because I was impressed with how I'd painted them (figure wargamers will know what I mean - not always the best policy). Lost in the 1st round all 3 times, once to an Austrian army and twice to British armies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

... which is why my monacle is Wellington - British Naps always seemed to win at the Triples

Still have 2000+ 15mm Naps in the attic, that have been there gathering dust for 12 years. Since moving to Holland I never had the opportunity to play figure wargaming again ... but could'nt never bear to part with armies that took me 5 years to paint.

Such is life. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Welly

Lord Of Storms

03-17-2003, 03:14

LK , WELLY , I came across a good site that has alot of info on the regiment types, uniforms, weapons etc thought it might help www.scotsatwar.org and www.regiments.org Loads of good info...

Brother Derfel

03-17-2003, 22:03

Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Mar. 16 2003,14:53)]
Quote[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Mar. 16 2003,13:19)]Wellington used 3 rank lines at Waterloo
and 4 ranks at times.
I did no such thing ... I'm not so old http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I did play Naps at the Sheffield Triples (UK figure wargaming championships/knockout) 3 years running, 1986-88, and fielded my Russian Army on all 3 occasions - just because I was impressed with how I'd painted them (figure wargamers will know what I mean - not always the best policy). Lost in the 1st round all 3 times, once to an Austrian army and twice to British armies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

... which is why my monacle is Wellington - British Naps always seemed to win at the Triples

Still have 2000+ 15mm Naps in the attic, that have been there gathering dust for 12 years. Since moving to Holland I never had the opportunity to play figure wargaming again ... but could'nt never bear to part with armies that took me 5 years to paint.

Such is life. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Welly
he he, I know what you mean Welly. I played 25mm Spanish Napoleonic for a while after I painted up some Guirillo's that a mate gave me. I lost every bloody battle cos my troops always ran away.

I am painting 15mm Marlburian Anglo-Dutch now, they are better painted than my Spanish and fair better on the table. I am happy...

Wellington

03-17-2003, 22:58

Quote[/b] (Brother Derfel @ Mar. 17 2003,15:03)]I am painting 15mm Marlburian Anglo-Dutch now, they are better painted than my Spanish and fair better on the table. I am happy...
Sounds nice ...

... just don't rely too much on the Dutch elements http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

MR EGG

03-17-2003, 23:16

Hello Wellington long time no write, In a previous post you mentioned changing the time value to each turn from a year to a week or day etc,I really would like to do this for the ECW mod I'm STILL working on but have only managed to do this by putting 4200 as the start date and changing the AD directly in front of the date on the campaign map to 16 giving 164200. As you can see it takes 100 turns to complete a year so each turn =approx 3.5 days.So what I'm saying is it possible to change it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif cheers MR EGG http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Wellington

03-17-2003, 23:50

Quote[/b] (MR EGG @ Mar. 17 2003,16:16)]
Hi Mr Egg - nice to see you back.

Quote[/b] ]So what I'm saying is it possible to change it

Er ... I was hoping you'd tell me

I noticed you'd changed the date in a screenshot of your ECW campaign - so I presumed it was possible. Also check out ECS's info (in the FAQ sticky) re- end dates in the startpos files.

My idea was simple. Change the AD to the actual year (eg '1796&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and set startdate/enddate to 1 and 200 (for a 200 day tactical campaign).

If you want to investigate this approach and let us know I'm all ears. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Welly

Lord Krazy

03-18-2003, 08:51

This is some cavalry we have been working on.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/lordkrazy/images/4-picture3.gif

http://mysite.freeserve.com/lordkrazy/images/5-picture3.gif

They will added to the units beta
and some others maybe tomorrow.
Just more samples so leave me alone
with the why don't they stuff ok http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
If they don't work tough
The idea is they will.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

kyodai-britishbeef

03-18-2003, 09:48

very nice cav lk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif im in excited anticipation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Lord Krazy

03-18-2003, 14:03

Quote[/b] (kyodai-britishbeef @ Mar. 18 2003,02:48)]very nice cav lk http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif im in excited anticipation http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
We are happy you like them from a distance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
As soon as we sober up from St Patrick's Day
we'll add them.LBA looks in better shape at the moment,
well the one I can see in my left eye looks ok http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

While your all excited KB mail me please.
kyodai_britishbeef@thelordz.co.uk

thank you
regards

LK

econ21

03-18-2003, 15:58

Just heard about the Napoleonic mod in the Entrance Hall and it sounds fun. I've been thinking about the problem mentioned in that hall about not being able to model squares.

I think one work around would be to class infantry as "spears", so they negate the cavalry charge bonus for a frontal charge and then give them 4 rank bonuses like pikemen. Players would then have a choice between going for 2 ranks to maximise firepower and frontage, or for a deeper formation for melee benefits. If you finetune the stats you should be able to get it so that cavalry would lose crushingly if taking on 4 ranks of infantry (each rank is +1 defence, so a 20% change in kill probabilities).

You would not be able to catch the idea of infantry panicking in the face of a cavalry charge (although you could make pathetic troops "swords" and vary some anti-cav bonuses to catch difference in steadfastness).

However, cavalry should still be pretty lethal in the flank or rear - cavalry in TW is sufficiently fast that it can get such chances. I would give most infantry a smaller anti-cav bonus than spearmen in MTW.

One other thought - on the cavalry, I would give the lance a higher charge bonus but lower attack rating than the sword. In MTW, the lance is just plain better than the sword, but I think that is more debatable in the Napoleonic period. I would also give heavy cavalry a higher attack rating than light, but not massively (say one point or so). British light cavalry at Waterloo stood up pretty well - in the Sid Meier engine Waterloo game, they are roughly equal to the French heavies.

I really think this mod could work and that a Napoleon:TW might eventually come from CA.

PS: Given the greater scale of Napoleonic battles, it might be best to conceive of each unit as rather a large organisation - say a brigade (or even division).

PPS: Those cavalry are beautiful, Lord Krazy; are they Imperial Guard Chasseurs de Cheval?

NagatsukaShumi

03-18-2003, 18:44

LK, you continue to amaze me, well done, its hard to do that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif.

All these screenshots so far always amaze me, your units are very well made.

Wellington

03-18-2003, 20:51

Quote[/b] (Wellington @ Mar. 16 2003,06:36)]LK - can you compile a list of 2 things

1) which nationalities are provided for in your plates
2) which unit types, per nationality, are provided for in your plates

... we can then plan this and inform people what 1st offering(s) will be.
LK,

Any info on the above?

Welly

Koukos

03-18-2003, 23:03

Will this mod be finished before the expansion comes out??

Just anxious.

Stormer

03-18-2003, 23:11

looking good LK keep it up.

Cuirassier66

03-18-2003, 23:23

Lord Krazy,

WhoooHooo My beloved Chaesseurs a Cheval de la Garde in full splendour Wonderful work. Keep it coming.

-Cuirassier

Lord Krazy

03-19-2003, 07:25

Quote[/b] (Cuirassier66 @ Mar. 18 2003,16:23)]Lord Krazy,

WhoooHooo My beloved Chaesseurs a Cheval de la Garde in full splendour Wonderful work. Keep it coming.

-Cuirassier
Welcome to the dungeon Cuirassier,

Glad you like the Chaesseurs
Then again seen as your a Lord you'd have to say that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Speaking of Lords Swords of Storm is also
a new and welcome addition to the crew.
"Lord of all things curly"

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Lord Of Storms

03-19-2003, 16:40

Quote[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Mar. 19 2003,00:25)]Speaking of Lords Swords of Storm is also
a new and welcome addition to the crew.
"Lord of all things curly"

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Thanks Lord Krazy, I am glad to be a part of The Lords (notice the sig)I have to add Lord of all things curly Lol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Cuirassier66

03-19-2003, 18:25

I have moved my posts on the challeneges of using MTW engine for a Napoleonic mod below. Let the discussions continue.

-Cuirassier

Cuirassier66

03-19-2003, 18:29

My passion is Napoleonic Warfare. With all the exciting stuff that is happening at the modder's heaven, the Dungeon, here is my 2 cents worth.

When the original STW was released, my first thought was "My How would a Napoleonic Campaign game look like using this engine?" And frankly it was about time. Enough time has been spent with the crusty old hex grids and the turn based marathon battles. A real time 3D Napoleonic battle game was long overdue.

What are the challenges of using the current MTW engine for a Napoleonic mod?

Infantry:
*******
An average Napoleonic battalion had six companies of 100 to 120 muskets each. A regiment usually had 2 battalions, sometimes three. A brigade was composed of 2 regiments and a division normally had 2 brigades. Variations always existed but this would suffice for a starting point.

For realistic tactical battle simulations I feel that the unit of maneuver should be a battalion, at the most a regiment. A company level simulation would be too taxing on the game engine. I don't even think that one could have enough units to bring in if we went in for company level detail.

Using anything higher than a regiment as the unit of maneuver would really take away the tactical nature of the simulation and some fun. At the end of the day, after all, the Total War series is about fun.

So acting on the hypothesis that we are using a battalion as the fundamental unit of maneuver, here are some of the things that we definitely could do, can not do and just about may be with the MTW engine :

Formations:
*********
Primary weapon : Musket or rifle. Range, rate of reload and fire etc could all be tweaked.

Secondary weapon: Bayonet. No problem here. Infantry could be made to charge with cold steel.

Forming line : No problem. Can do.

Forming a skirmish screen : No problem. Can do.

Attack column: So far as I have experimented, no can do. Attack column was a formation specially favored by the French. It had a frontage of two companies. It had great ease of battlefield movement and good melee capability. But the firepower was reduced compared to a line.
The already existing wedge formation is eminently suited for this role. The wedge has very little firepower but has great shock effect. Could we somehow modify the flocking behavior for the units when ordered to form a wedge so that when we ask the unit to form a wedge it forms a column? He,he

Square: Ah Here is a definite problem. No can do The square was the standard formation used by all infantry of that era against charging cavalry. It was practically invulnerable against charging horse, but was easy pickings for enemy infantry in line and especially for enemy artillery.

March column: So far as I remember, no can do. But this may not be as critical as attack column and square formations.

Special abilities :
Grenadiers had superior melee capability. This could be achieved by giving them some bonus attack points.

Light infantry was deadly in broken terrain, wooded areas and built areas. And again light infantry were far better suited to skirmish tactics than line infantry as they were specially trained. I do not know how we could give light infantry superior skirmishing skills in terrain that is amenable to light infantry tactics. Ubermodders could ponder on this one perhaps.

The following posts would be on cavalry, artillery, command and control, orders of battle etc.

-Cuirassier

Cuirassier66

03-19-2003, 18:32

Cavalry:
*******
Napoleonic cavalry was generally classified into light and heavy.
Hussars, Chasseurs a Cheval, Light Dragoons were the saber wielding light horse.
Lancers (or Uhlans) carried (duh) the lance. They were classified as lights as well.

Heavies could be armored or unarmored. The celebrated Cuirassiers and Carabiniers a Cheval being the armored heavies. Heavy dragoons being the unarmored heavies.

Light cavalry acted as the ears and the eyes of the army. Scouting, outpost duty and rear area security were the traditional light cavalry duties. In pitched battles they could and did charge with their heavier brethren.

Heavy cavalry was trained for one and only purpose in the battlefield. Though ponderous with big men on huge horses, the heavy arm was trained to charge boot to boot to ride down any opposing formation, be it horse or foot.

The basic cavalry unit of maneuver was the regiment. An average Napoleonic cavalry regiment had three squadrons of 150 sabers each. A brigade was composed of 2 regiments and a division normally had 2 brigades. Variations always existed but this would suffice for a starting point.

For realistic tactical battle simulations I feel that the unit of maneuver for the cavalry should be a regiment. A squadron level simulation would be too taxing on the game engine.

So acting on the hypothesis that we are using the regiment as the fundamental unit of maneuver for the cavalry, here are some of the things that we definitely could do, can not do and just about may be with the MTW engine:

Formations:
*********
Primary weapon : Curved saber for the lights, lance for the lancers and straight sword for the heavies. Lethality, ease of use etc could all be tweaked.

Secondary weapon: Musketoon for the dragoons and the Carabiniers a Cheval, carbine for the hussars and Chasseurs a Cheval and pistols for the heavies. No problem here. Cavalry could be made to discharge a volley before charging home with cold steel.

Forming line : No problem. Can do.

Forming a skirmish screen : No problem. Can do. Light cavalry routinely formed in skirmish line before charging artillery.

Attack column: So far as I have experimented, no can do. All heavy cavalry was taught to charge in attack column formation. It had a frontage of a squadron. It had great ease of battlefield movement and a solid battering ram effect. But this formation was very vulnerable to artillery.

The already existing wedge formation is eminently suited for this role. The wedge has very little firepower but has great shock effect. Could we somehow modify the flocking behavior for the units when ordered to form a wedge so that when we ask the unit to form a wedge it forms a column?

March column: So far as I remember, no can do. But this may not be as critical as attack column and square formations.

Special abilities and limitations:

Lancers were deadly against infantry and artillery. Artillery crews especially despised them. Any gunner cowering under the wheels could be speared with ease if under a lancer attack. Against cavalry though lancers tended to be a bit awkward, as the lance could become a bit unwieldy in close combat.
I do not know how MTW engine handles lancers.

Cavalry charging steady infantry in square formation almost always got repulsed. The trick was to catch the infantry as it was undergoing the evolutions needed to form square from line or column. As infantry can not form square in MTW, cavalry could rampage at will in MTW. I do not know how realistic this would be.

And again cavalry would never successfully charge infantry in broken terrain, marshy ground or in built areas. Again I do not fully understand the mechanics of the cavalry charge in MTW.

More in the next post.

As for the mounted fire debate, I think the DECIDING factor in a cavalry vs cavalry melee was always the cold steel. Sure the dragoons and the Carabiniers A Cheval were trained to fire a volley into the opposing lines of charging horse. But the volley was just meant to disrupt the ranks and not to decide the outcome of the engagement forthright. A decision was always forced with the cold steel.

When two bodies of charging horse met, one side that had the lower morale would normally veer away or there would be a clash and a classic cut and thrust melee.

In either case it was the COHESION of the charging regiment that primarily decided the issue and not a puny little fussilade from a set of popgun musketoons.

So for all practical purposes we could let the cavaliers in the Nap mod ignore mounted fire and do what they do best : charge home with cold steel.

And oh, against infantry, it was ridiculous for the cavalry to engage in any sustained fire fight. The range of the carbines and the musketoons were definitely shorter than the standard infantry muskets. And the footsloggers could probably have reloaded atleast twice as fast as the mounted men. No contest here at all

Charge home Charge with the cold steel

Quote (Cuirassier66 @ Mar. 17 2003,17:03)
Wellington, is it possible to mod the formations data files and to get new formations like an attack column or a square?

Wellington's answer:
***************************
Yes and No.

These files only determine the positions of units relative to each other (infantry in the centre, cavalry on the flanks, etc). In other words they determine what formation a whole army assumes.

If you wanted a new formation (eg: French attack) you could probably code a template as such that defined several rows of Infantry with cavaly behind. Eg: with 16 units something like -

I I I I
I I I I
I I I I

C C C C

... if you see what I mean.

To indivual units (I) 'formation' (column/line) can be defined to some degree in prod11 (cant remember the exact names of the fields 'supporting ranks/prefered number of ranks'?).

Squares are not, to my knowledge, possible
******************* End of Wellington's answer

Napoleonic artillery
***************
Napoleonic artillery could be generally classified into foot and horse artillery. Foot gunners walked alongside the guns when maneuvering. Horse gunners, to a man, rode along on their own horses, and thus the celebrated mobility of the horse artillery. It was not for nothing that horse artillery was called as flying artillery. The guns themselves were, of course, pulled by teams of horses.

Artillery was classified as heavy or medium depending upon the weight of the shot that was thrown out. A myriad number of shot weights were being used by the various adversaries of that era. But 6 pounders and 12 pounders were the most common.

The basic unit of battlefield maneuver was invariably the battery. A French artillery battery consisted of 6 cannons, of which 4 were guns and the remaining 2 were howitzers.

All the guns of the Napoleonic era were of the smooth bore type and could fire round shot at a high velocity against either soft or hard targets. Howitzers fired explosive shells in a high trajectory and thus could attack targets behind a ridgeline or inside a building. Howitzers were also smooth bore.

Both guns and howitzers could fire canister (tightly packed musket balls in metallic cans) against soft targets that could be devastatingly effective under short ranges.

The max range for a 12 pounder cannon firing roundshot was around 1800 meters (5905 feet). It was a very rare gun captain that engaged the enemy at such extreme ranges. Effective ranges for a 12 pounder would be in the order of 900 meters (2953 feet)

The max range for a 12 pounder cannon firing canister was around 600 meters (1969 feet). Again effective canister ranges for a 12 pounder would be in the order of 450 meters (1476 feet)

For a typical 6 pounder cannon the ranges would be:
Roundshot max range : 1300 meters (4265 feet)
Roundshot effective range : 700 meters (2297 feet)
Canister max range : 450 meters (1476 feet)
Canister effective range : 350 meters (1148 feet)

For the purpose of doing a Napoleonic mod using MTW, I believe that a battery should be the basic unit of maneuver. I also believe that it would be too cumbersome to differentiate between howitzers and regular guns.

OK, what are the challenges of implementing the Napoleonic artillery arm using the MTW mod?

*The well-known fact that cannons could not move in MTW is a serious problem. Even the relatively ponderous foot artillery moved a bit before and during the battle. Napoleon, being a gunner himself advocated aggressive use of artillery (some would say too aggressive) on the battlefield. Even if we accept that foot artillery did not move that much and are willing to live with immobile cannons for the foot batteries in MTW, what about the horse guns?

*Horse artillery lived and died on its fame for lighting fast maneuvers. Horse guns routinely galloped with charging cavalry to exploit any tactical situation quickly.

So the Napoleonic battlefield would not feel "right" if we did not have flying artillery

One possible solution would be to use the Naptha throwers as horse artillery We could throw away the graphic for the Naptha guys and replace it with some animations of a horse pulling a gun. Once in range, the gun could unlimber and go through the animations of firing a projectile.

Next post : combined arms tactics .

Wellington

03-19-2003, 19:07

C66,

Great stuff. Nice to see your considerable contributions (already&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif to the Nap mod on this thread.

As we now have C66 to contribute to this project (in terms of post's within the Dungeon) I'll be posting a few items regarding what needs to be done to ensure the success of this Nap mod.

One sentence that I'd like to emphasise, from C66, is the following -

Quote[/b] ] What are the challenges of using the current MTW engine for a Napoleonic mod?

This is, to my mind, THE QUESTION that needs to be considered first and foremost, for anyone working on a somewhat different mod (this Nap mod or any other).

Now C66 is on board for contributions I'll start itemising what needs to be done, both in respect of the MTW engine and the points raised by C66.

Welly

Lord Krazy

03-19-2003, 19:31

Four Cavalry units will be posted shortly

Chasseurs a Cheval
Guard Chasseurs a Cheval

Austrian Hussars

Russian Dragoons

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Wellington

03-19-2003, 20:01

Quote[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Mar. 19 2003,12:31)]Four Cavalry units will be posted shortly

Chasseurs a Cheval
Guard Chasseurs a Cheval

Austrian Hussars

Russian Dragoons

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
LK,

Can you itemise the previous post, regarding units per faction, in respect of exactly what type of type of units are provided by for each faction.

Saying infantry/cavalry/artillery tells me we have just 3 units per faction (in respect of prod11).

Now I know we have at least 2 French cavalry units -

- Chasseurs a Cheval
- Guard Chasseurs a Cheval

I also know know that your plates allow for Dragoons and Hussars (for all nationalities?)

Any further clarification?

Wellington

03-19-2003, 22:28

Guys,

I'm now out of this mod. I'll be progressing a "Nap type mod" on my own - simply because its far easier to do things by yourself (if you know how to do them). I'll release my offering when I'm happy with it.

Welly

Lord Krazy

03-20-2003, 06:23

here (http://thelordz.co.uk/zips/Napoleonic_Units_v1.4.zip)is v1.4

Well seen as Welly has left.

We have to go back to the drawing board again.

I tought we were going to have maps and some scripts
in the near future but that's out the window now.
I'll start work on the campaign in aday or two
and LBA can start on a map.To be honest
I'm pretty tired now and going on reserve for awhile
working on this.So this set back has
kind of knocked the wind
out of me.I'm going to get some rest and get back
to you guys in a few days when I will be
in better shape I hope.

Thanks

Regards

Lord Krazy.

kyodai-britishbeef

03-20-2003, 16:07

good job LK , The new cav look really good, i also like the new range graphic, it works well and looks the part. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Is there a guide any where on how to edit the graphics, i would like to help u out with this but need pointing in the right direction. i would love to see a scottish regiment in there. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

Also ive been trying to find some music to replace the medieval stuff, does any one know where i can find some (i.e bag pipes/ pipes and drums etc )

Also im triyn to create some new speech sounds instead of the latin, which might make it abit more authentic.

btw did u get the file i sent u with the unit icons ?

Cuirassier66

03-20-2003, 22:36

Lord Krazy, hei

I played a custom battle yesterday as the French against the British in a cavalry + infantry scanario.

Loved it. It was wonderful to see my chasseurs charging pell mell at the green jackets.

We must think of a way for the infantry to form square though. The way it is now, cavalry would just rule the battlefield.

Regards,
Cuirassier

Lord Of Storms

03-20-2003, 23:40

LK ,You are my hero, thanks for the auto install feature on the latest update 1.4 I am thorughly enjoying this, without all the unzip hassles, I think it will make more accesible to others also , Good job...http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Big%20Thumb%20Up.gif http://www.geocities.com/bat3193/smiley6/firework2.gif

Lord Krazy

03-22-2003, 16:42

More Cavalry have been done
They just need to be compiled.
We will do that later today.

Scots Greys and Inniskilling Dragoons
plus Cossack lancers and maybe a few more.

I have noticed while I'v been gone the
last couple of days that only
two of the Lords have posted in this thread.
Is there something going on I should know about
or is everybody just war spotting on CNN? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Lord Black Adder

03-22-2003, 22:48

Hello total war-ers

at day i am at war protests at night i am making war mods
Like you all know Thelordz and many friends are building new mod Napoleon...and is coming on.. I am thinking of cannons in bif at a moment. Do not misanderestemate me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Cuirassier66

03-23-2003, 08:52

Combined Arms Tactics:
********************
Sorry for the long delay. In the previous posts I discussed the infantry, cavalry and the artillery arms separately. We would have a look at the combined arms tactics in this post.

Napoleon was a firm believer in the massed firepower of the guns. A gunner at heart and in training he observed that “it is with artillery that one makes war”. French tactics invariably favored a massed bombardment of the enemy troops prior to the grand assault. Napoleon’s adversaries initially tended to distribute artillery throughout the infantry divisions and even brigades. This scattered employment was never able to counter the ferocity of the French massed onslaught. In the later campaigns Napoleon’s adversaries learned to mass artillery into “grand batteries” of their own. Wagram and Borodino are notable examples of this.

Usually it was the relatively immobile foot artillery that was being used in the grand battery role. Horse artillery almost always galloped with the charging horse.

If the strengths of the opposing armies at the start of the battle were more or less equal, the immediate objective was to gain cavalry superiority. Because any unbroken enemy horse that was marauding in the field would severely hamper the mobility of the attacking infantry.

Provided the enemy horse was willing to engage, the infantry would march forward. For the French , it would almost always be in attack column formation (with a frontage of two companies, approximately 240 muskets wide). Cavalry would march either directly behind or on the flanks with the horse artillery galloping ahead.

Assuming that enemy infantry is met without any cavalry support nearby, all the three arms would work in unison to bring the enemy infantry down. First the supporting horse would feign a charge or in some cases actually charge. This would force the enemy infantry into square as this was the only formation that the infantry could use to defend against charging horse. But the square was terribly vulnerable against infantry or cannon fire.

Thus once the enemy infantry had been forced into square, the attacking infantry would deploy into line and start blasting off. Worse still, the compact enemy infantry square would present an almost unmistakable target for the artillery that would unleash devastating blasts of canister into the square. When the square was seen to be wavering, waiting cavalry would charge home to execute the coup de grace.

This was the theory at least. Many things could and did go wrong. A successful combined arms coordinated attack demanded very skillful timing from a commander wrestling with the battlefield control problems of the Napoleonic era.

-Cuirassier

MR EGG

03-24-2003, 16:37

Very interesting stuff C66 what went wrong at Waterloo? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif BTW if you want any help with this mod give me a shout http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

King David

03-25-2003, 00:59

Very good work LK.

Cuirassier66

03-25-2003, 01:45

Ah, that Mr.Egg, is a different discussion altogether that warrants a thread of its own. But since you touched a topic that is one of my prime periods of interest in Napoleonic warfare, here is my two cents on why Napoleon could not crack the thin red line.

*Lack of his personal tactical control of the battle. He had taken direct tactical control of the battle many a times before, Wagram being a good example. If Marshal Ney’s impetuosity was never in doubt, his battle judgment could at times be a bit rash.

*Committing a better part of an army corps ( 3 divisions) into the futile struggle for Hougoumont. It could have been surpassed. At worst Jerome could have kept the Guards inside honest with just cannons and howitzers.

*Lack of cavalry support for the powerful first corps attack ( 4 divisions) by
Count d Erlon. A puny brigade of cuirassiers was the only flank protection awarded. With the cavalry superiority that Napoleon enjoyed over the Allies, at least a corps of heavy cavalry (2 divisions) should have gone in with the first corps infantry attack. Napoleon would still have had 2 more divisions of heavy cavalry in reserve ( not counting the powerful division of the Imperial Guard heavy cavalry division that is&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

*When the massed cavalry charges did press home, total lack of infantry and horse artillery support for the cavaliers. Had Napoleon been in direct control, he would have immediately rectified this fatal omission.

*Failure to spike the Allied guns, when the French horse was controlling the ridgeline for the 3 hours that the cavalry charges raged on. Not a single cavalryman thought about dismounting and spiking the guns that were abandoned with the cavalry swirling around.

I could go on and on. It is, as I said, a separate thread. You could email me separately if you want to discuss this.

Cuirassier66

03-25-2003, 02:06

Combined arms tactics continued:
**************************
As I mentioned in my previous post, during the Napoleonic Wars, all the three arms were beautifully balanced and a combined arms attack was vital for a successful outcome.

The challenge for us MTW modders as far as the combined arms tactics is this: “How do we make the AI use proper combined arms tactics?”

It is one thing with clever modding to simulate a square formation. But how do we make the AI put the infantry in square formation when being threatened by cavalry? And again how do we make the AI make feigned cavalry charges so that infantry goes into square so that the AI artillery could blast them apart?

I saw the other day a battalion of French light infantry in line formation charging a regiment of Russian dragoons I have no explanation for their behavior

So the challenges are :

*How do we give the infantry a square formation?

*How do we make the AI use this square formation when being threatened by cavalry?

*How do we make the AI realize that enemy infantry is in square and could be blasted away by cannon fire?

I have looked at some of the Crusaders_Unit_Prod11.txt file entries.
Some of the unit attributes look interesting.
These are the
“CavAttackBonus”
"CavDefenseBonus” and
“Units this unit is fearful of”.

Obviously “CavAttackBonus” for infantry should be set to 0. Infantry does NOT charge cavalry. Period.

"CavDefenseBonus” for infantry could be set to maximum. But I don’t know how we could qualify this bonus depending upon the formation the infantry is in. Clearly an infantry unit in skirmish formation would be much more nervous looking at a regiment of charging horse than a battalion of infantry in solid square. I would need some input from veteran modders as to whether we could change this bonus depending upon the formation type.

Regards,
Cuirassier

Cuirassier66

03-25-2003, 06:00

Does anybody know how to decipher the formation templates in the FormationData folder?

I found some interesting stuff in the HistoricFormations.txt
The SQUARE formation is described as follows: Could somebody help me to deipher the fields?

;****************************************************************
;Square
;This a three sided rectangle actually.
;For those occasions when you're feeling insecure
;****************************************************************
Template Square
;;; Flags
HistoricalTemplate
Defend
Priority 0

Slot 0 ;Unused
MaxUnits 0
XPos 0 absolute
ZPos 0 absolute
EndSlot 0
Slot 1 ;Unused
MaxUnits 0
XPos 0 absolute
ZPos 0 absolute
EndSlot 1

Slot 2 ;Central cavalry mass
;;; Restrictions
;; MaxWidth 30
MinWidth 30

;;; Slot position
XPos 0 absolute
ZPos -30 absolute

;;; Unit Info and hints
General

;; Unit Types
UnitType GeneralOnly 1.0
UnitType HeavyMounted 1.0
EndSlot 2

Slot 3 ;Left side light cavalry
Optional

;;; Restrictions
;; MaxWidth 30
MinWidth 30

;;; Slot position
XPos -3 relativeTo 2
ZPos 0 relativeTo 2

;;; Unit Info and hints
NotGeneral

;; Unit Types
UnitType LightMounted 1.0
UnitType Mounted 0.5
EndSlot 3

Slot 4 ;Right side light cavalry
Optional

;;; Restrictions
;; MaxWidth 30
MinWidth 30

;;; Slot position
XPos 3 relativeTo 2
ZPos 0 relativeTo 2

;;; Unit Info and hints
NotGeneral

;; Unit Types
UnitType LightMounted 1.0
UnitType Mounted 0.5
EndSlot 4

Slot 5 ;Dummy slot spanning 2 and 3
Spans 2 and 3
EndSlot 5

Slot 6 ;Dummy slot spanning all three cavalry slots
Spans 4 and 5
EndSlot 6

Slot 7 ;Left side outward facing archers
Optional
Priority 0.5

;;;Restrictions
MaxUnits 2

;;; Slot position
XPos -15 relativeTo 6
ZPos 0 relativeTo 6

;;; Unit Info and hints
NotGeneral
Angle -90
NumRows 3

;; Unit Types
UnitType MissileInfantry 1.0
UnitType MissileMounted 0.5
EndSlot 7

Slot 8 ;Left side outward facing infantry
Optional
Priority 0.6

;;;Restrictions
; Width fixed 20
; Depth fixed 20
MaxUnits 2

;;; Slot position
XPos -5 relativeTo 7
ZPos 0 relativeTo 7

;;; Unit Info and hints
NotGeneral
Angle -90
NumRows 3

;; Unit Types
UnitType HeavyInfantry 1.0
UnitType MediumInfantry 0.5
EndSlot 8

Slot 9 ;Right side outward facing archers
Optional
Priority 0.5

;;;Restrictions
; Width fixed 20
; Depth fixed 20
MaxUnits 2

;;; Slot position
XPos 15 relativeTo 6
ZPos 0 relativeTo 6

;;; Unit Info and hints
NotGeneral
Angle 90
NumRows 3

;; Unit Types
UnitType MissileInfantry 1.0
UnitType MissileMounted 0.5
EndSlot 9

Slot 10 ;Right side outward facing infantry
Optional
Priority 0.6

;;;Restrictions
; Width fixed 20
; Depth fixed 20
MaxUnits 2

;;; Slot position
XPos 5 relativeTo 9
ZPos 0 relativeTo 9

;;; Unit Info and hints
NotGeneral
Angle 90
NumRows 3

;; Unit Types
UnitType HeavyInfantry 1.0
UnitType MediumInfantry 0.5
EndSlot 10

Slot 11 ;Dummy slot spanning entire width of square
Spans 7 and 9
EndSlot 11

Slot 12 ;Artillery
Optional

;;; Restrictions
Width relativeTo 6

;;; Slot position
XPos 0 absolute
ZPos -20 relativeTo 6

;;; Unit Info and hints
InterUnitSpacing 5

;; Unit Types
UnitType Artillery 1.0
EndSlot 12

Slot 13 ;Defensive Infantry line
;;; Restrictions
MinUnits 2
Width relativeTo 11
MaxDepth 5

;;; Slot position
XPos 0 absolute
ZPos 0 absolute

;;; Unit Info and hints
NotGeneral
NumRows 2

;; Unit Types
UnitType HeavyInfantry 1.0
UnitType NonMissileInfantry 0.8
EndSlot 13

Slot 14 ;Missile line
;;; Restrictions
MinUnits 2
Width relativeTo 13
WidthFactor 0.95

;;; Slot position
XPos 0 absolute
ZPos -10 relativeTo 13

;;; Unit Info and hints
NotGeneral
NumRows 2

;; Unit Types
UnitType MissileInfantry 1.0
UnitType MissileMounted 0.5
EndSlot 14

EndTemplate Square