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View Full Version : OOC for this project but a nice interest story about dig finds


HFox
10-07-2010, 16:55
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-11489189
Brennus
10-07-2010, 18:12
I am sure someone will soon be complaining this is posted in the wrong place, but before they do thanks for the interesting story!

Bloody private collectors and metal detectors. What use is it (WARNING: Archaeologist in a rant) to have something as unique as that helmet in a private collection? No doubt adorning the mantlepiece of some banker who has only a passing knowledge of Roman equipment. And what use is such an object out of context? Don't get me wrong metal detectors are great on a dig site, they can find lots of stuff that previously would have been missed (in particular coins) but by themselves they just destroy the contexts of sites, robbing us of vital palaeoenvironmental, zooarchaeological and archaeological data which could otherwise be gleaned from the associated material.

Interesting stuff though.
bobbin
10-08-2010, 15:45
Normally a British museum would automatically have the right to buy such important finds under the Treasures Act, sadly because of a stupid loophole this doesn't apply to the helmet as it is made of bronze (the act only applies to gold or silver items).
Ibrahim
10-10-2010, 04:59
I am sure someone will soon be complaining this is posted in the wrong place, but before they do thanks for the interesting story!

Bloody private collectors and metal detectors. What use is it (WARNING: Archaeologist in a rant) to have something as unique as that helmet in a private collection? No doubt adorning the mantlepiece of some banker who has only a passing knowledge of Roman equipment. And what use is such an object out of context? Don't get me wrong metal detectors are great on a dig site, they can find lots of stuff that previously would have been missed (in particular coins) but by themselves they just destroy the contexts of sites, robbing us of vital palaeoenvironmental, zooarchaeological and archaeological data which could otherwise be gleaned from the associated material.

Interesting stuff though.

tuzz....they sell fossils of undescribed specimens of dinosaurs for 7,000 dollars per femur. people always want to collect stuff for the heck of it-no amount of complaining (or, while we're at it, Govt. action), is going to help. yeah, it destroys context, yes, its a pain, but we have to work around it as best as possible.

the best thing to do is of course to try and elicit the owner's help; that way, you can study it, and the person can still keep it. I actually made a similar deal recently with some fossil dealers, specializing in North African Fossils. unlike the silly fellows in the article, those guys were scrupulous enough to actually note the ages of everything they find.
Brennus
10-10-2010, 11:09
tuzz....they sell fossils of undescribed specimens of dinosaurs for 7,000 dollars per femur. people always want to collect stuff for the heck of it-no amount of complaining (or, while we're at it, Govt. action), is going to help. yeah, it destroys context, yes, its a pain, but we have to work around it as best as possible.

the best thing to do is of course to try and elicit the owner's help; that way, you can study it, and the person can still keep it. I actually made a similar deal recently with some fossil dealers, specializing in North African Fossils. unlike the silly fellows in the article, those guys were scrupulous enough to actually note the ages of everything they find.

There needs to be much stronger legislation protecting palaeontological and archaeological material, something similar to the legislation which prevents the trade in exotic animals (although even that should be beefed up in my opinion). Even some sort of leasing program where owners must donate their material to museums and institutions for a set period of time would help.
Ibrahim
10-11-2010, 05:19
There needs to be much stronger legislation protecting palaeontological and archaeological material (there already are in the US-doesn't do ****), something similar to the legislation which prevents the trade in exotic animals (although even that should be beefed up in my opinion) (yeah, sure, it can really be effective in stopping the illegal Rhesus monkey smuggling in Kuwait, complete with inhumane leashing and beatings). Even some sort of leasing program where owners must donate their material to museums and institutions for a set period of time would help. (might work, but not always; besides, the same effect can be obtained by directly paying the owner for a temporary study, and allowing the owner to look at the work in progress)

legistlation?

bless you, you're a well intentioned fellow, and I kinda feel your pain.

But look, if the government is stupid enough in the UK to think that only Gold and Silver are the only artifacts worth a darn*, judging by what Bobbin said, then what makes you think any future legistlation will work any better? And making a mandatory lease is a waste of time; a similar effect can be achieved other ways. All further legistlation will do is make the very thing you fear (smuggling, hiding, and illegal private ownership), more likely to happen (Hint: people often don't like to wait, pay extra money, or deal with excessive red tape)

also, I'm not sure if you are aware of some laws in fossil hunting, at least in the US:

1-deliberately hunting fossils in the US, often on "protected" land will get you up to 25 yrs in Jail. (Federal)
2-pleading guilty to the above gets a maximum of 15 years. (Federal)
3-In some state laws, its a form of larceny to fossil hunt on private property, without permission (or with, but no contract), from the owners. add that to the Federal sentance.
4-in China, attempting to smuggle fossils (or just trying to buy them directly) is an instant death sentance. no, I'm not making this up. yet China is one of the greatest exporters of illegal fossils in the world.
5-in China, to even look at a fossil for study, or begin to consider purchasing it, you have to have it studied by at least one Chinese scientist, and/or you have to fill out a load of paperwork. there is a reason why that raptor in one shop sells for $26,000.

and mind you, none of this really works, or almost never does (I only know 1 example of the US laws actually working: Nate Murphy back in 2009.). other cases often are an abuse of the law (e.g the guy who studied Sue (FMNH 3033)**, the discoverer of Falcarius (he had immediately reported it to the authorities), and a few others).

the best solution IMO is to somehow incentivise responsible collection of archaeological, or Paleontological, finds. that is to say, give the collecters an economic reason to want to help Archaeologists and palaeonlogists. I've already done this, as I have mentioned, with one shop. And I hope to do it with more.

EDIT: just to clarify: in Kuwait, these things are of course, done in the black market.

*as if any government should even concern itself with that; They can barely get defense and law right, and you expect them to save artifacts?
**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sue_%28dinosaur%29 (what more can I say? looking at the legal dispute, you can see the problem with US regulations).