The obviously lost units of MTW

[Kraxis]

The units lacking from the game:

Mangudai: I sincerely feel the Mongols lack a Royal unit and they lack units on a whole. Orda created his own Mangudai as strong Jinettes more or less. Personally I would like them to be strong horse archers, being fast Byz Cav with a stronger charge (just like the GH HA are fast Mamluke HA).
Stats: (charge/attack/defense/armour/morale) 4/3/3/4/4 Elite and Disciplined
Cost: 500 florins?

Gothic MAA: While I think the times went past the MAA I believe the lack of Late MAA is somewhat boring. I would want another unit just like the Gothic Serges.
It would follow the line very finely.
Stats: 3/4/5/5/5 with a 0.5 Large Shield, Elite
Cost: 325-375 Florins

Imperial Skutatoi: Fenir has created these Byzantine guys well, and the Byzantines need them. But my interpretation of them is somewhat different, I want them to be offensive spears, good fighters and not weaklings hiding behind their shields.
Stats: 5/3/1/3/2 Large Shield and 100 men
Cost: 250 florins

Saracen Swordsmen: The Muslims need a stronger sword unit, a unit with more stayingpower than the Ghazis or Nizaris/Futuwwas, they need something for later times. Also I think the Saracens were able swordsmen, so it can't be all that bad.
Stats: 3/4/1/2/4 Large Shield and Elite
Cost: 200-225 florins

Flemish Militia: Can you say Courtrai? Well, the Flemish were fiercely independant and fought using mingled formations of spears and armour piercing Goedendags. While not superb soldiers in their own they fought well enough to warrent inclusion (have witnessed ShadeFlanders outbursts many times enough). This would be a unique unit to Flanders and Friesland. I have included Friesland as the Danish king Hans managed to lose a battle with his proffesional to the peasants there, clearly they were not bad fighters too. The Flemish Militia gets AP from the Goedendags and anti-cav from the spears.
Stats: 5/0*/2/1/2 All Factions, Flanders/Friesland, 100 men, no shield
Cost: 150-175 florins

And some sort of High Almohad unit. Moorish Warriors or Andalusian Cavalry... whatever... But the Almohads needs some unit, they are the most boring Muslim faction (if the poll is a good indicator) and lacks power later. Give ideas please.

The lees important units but still important enough.

Viking Cavalry: The time was past Vikings, yet they were included, then I see no point in not including the mounted version. The Danes need some early cav to help their limited armies, and these will make fighting the Danes more interesting. And yes the Vikings fought mounted using light lances.
Essentially my vision is that of a slow Disciplined Alan with a shield.
Stats: 5/3/1/3/6 with a shield, Disciplined, running at 20/22, confined to Early
Cost: 200

Viking Longbows: Surprise surprise... I don't like the generic archers and the Vikings had their own bows, speculated on having introduced the Longbow to the Welsh...
Since the Vikings were included, then just like the cav, why not include these? It would be a stronger archer along the lines of the other early unique archers. Think of them as Vikings carrying a bow.
Stats: 1/2/0/2/4 using a shortbow (they only drew to the cheek and thus it wasn't much better than a shortbow, a unique bow would be interesting though), Large Shield
Cost: 300-325 florins

Klivanarioi: Fenir had one of these in his great unitassembly, but I thought it was simply too strong for such an early age. All we need is a few of his Klibs and the usual Byz generals/heirs and the game is over. So I want them toned down. Important unit I think.
Stats: 6/4/4/6/6 with the MTLB and a light lance, Elite and Disciplined, running at 16/20, confined to Early/High
Cost: 600 florins

Genoese Crossbows: I could simply not believe the Genoese unique unit would be an archer... I had expected some good crossbow (ok gogd and good, remember Crecy?). But I had never expected archers, and weak archers as well. I think the Genoese should have their honour returned to them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Stats: 1/3/1/2/4, Fast, Discilined, available in all periods (up for debate about Early)
Cost: 300 florins

Saxon Huskarls: Just adding some flavour to the game, but still Saxony was a hive of semi-vikings and fierce warriors. Quite similar to Varangians, though hardly as good. Not all that important to me though.
Stats: 4/4*/2/3/2 All Factions, Saxony
Cost: 225-250 florins


That was it...
What do you think, and would you perhaps help me? I can easily create the units in txt files, but I'm not good at creating bifs...

[Lord Krazy]

Quote[/b] ]I can easily create the units in txt files

Well go on then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
What do they need new animations for?
They sound applyable to the standard ones to me.
New animations means you can't use the old ones.
or do you mean the icons?

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[econ21]

Interesting post, Kraxi. For what it's worth:

I kind of think of the halberdier as the Gothic MAA - longswords were just no good against plate. [From a historical perspective, I would actually get rid of the FMAA and CMAA, or rather give them spears.]

The Flemish I guess I would view as the pikemen in the game. Maybe give Flanders a +1 honour for pikes?

Saracen swordsman - like the MAA, sounds sensible from an in-game point of view, but again historically, I don't think they figured. I am suspicious of the Saracen infantry as they are - most of the Islamic infantry I've read about was unarmoured and low grade - unless they are viewed as dismounted cav.

The Skutatoi, well, I guess they may be the forthcoming Armoured Spearmen but generally, I am not sure the Byzantines were strong on offensive infantry. I think the sword-armed Byzantine infantry is a game myth. I am not sure how heavily armoured they were either.

[Hamburglar]

From what I read the Byzantine forces were practically identical in makeup to other Christians. They really weren't using that "Roman" stuff anymore. They had knights quite similar to the Germans French English and Iberians and such rather than Kataphraktoi. I think all that stuff is added in just as game flavor.

Just like the Varangians - they were rarely if ever actually used in an army - they mostly were like the Western Roman Praetorians. Just policemen and bodyguards.

Only big difference between the Byzantines and the Catholics really was all the Muslim and Pagan mercenaries serving with the Byzzies.

[econ21]

I read something interesting about the Byzantine "skutatoi" or heavy infantry. It said they had long spears (12ft) and maces in the front rows, bows in the rear. I am a little unclear on their armour - some say it was light, others mail. It would be quite a nasty unit - good against cav and AP. The bows could be modelled as a separate unit in the game. I'm considering modding them to replace the current sword armed Byz infantry

I read an intriguing reference to a cataphract trying to persuade the last Emporer from sacrificing himself, but I suspect cataphract might just have meant heavy cav bodyguard. Not necessarily the guy in 3 suits of mail with a kontos and armoured horse modelled in the game (one ref. said the latter, more properly known as klibanphroi, died out after Manzikert).

[kaaskop]

well my first response is : Get the lords 69 unit pack
Genoese crossbows
viking archers
klivanaroi
skutatoi
are all in just change their stast a little

im my version of 69 i made all the byz spears flawed
otherwise they are a uber faction .
if you do the skutatoi with those stats i would make
them 450 fl since they are the most powerfull spear ingame
(excluding pikes)

as for flemish militia : I think the militia sergeant
is pretty accurate since they packed goedendags and later
falchions ,so AP yes anti cav not really since at Courtrai
they used the terrain to get the knights down .Just
give flanders a +1 val for militia serg and it will be close enough.

Saracen swords : well i've always thought they existed
but i never found anything about them execept as bow/sword
skirmishers.
Problem is that this would be the same as giving byz
powerfull spears ,it takes away uniqness in fighting style
and could unbalance things .
btw muslims wore mail quite often but didn't layer it like europeans.

gothic maa: good idea ,perhaps with miletary picks and simular ap weapons .

as for the vikings : kraxis save yourself the effort and
make the danes a minor faction http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[kaaskop]

damm typo's not even gonna bother editing them...meh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Kraxis]

Thanks guys... I have been away for some days.

Krazy, Lord http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif : I can create them in the Txt files, but I have a hard time creating the right connections to bifs. I once tried to create the Skutatoi by using the chainmail model... it worked horribly (it crashed).

The point about the Flemish Militia was that they did use spears and Goedendags in mingled formations. I can't come up with the site but Shadeflanders (sometimes Count of Flanders) has it, there it was said that every second man in the front row had a Goedendag and the others had spears, the same goes for the other rows just the other way. Meaning the front Goedendags had spears behind them and the spears Goedendags.
I know Courtrai was more luck and terrain than armament (I remember a good long thread on that hahaha), but that was only a battle where the arms were shown at their best, and everybody knows the battle.
+1 Valour to Militia Sergeants... I don't know, maybe, but not Pikes, they didn't use Pikes as Pikes were used in other places.

Skutatoi... They are certainly not that good. Yes they have a powerful attack but a weak defense. Attack 3 and Defense 3 after the shield is counted in. A unique unit in terms of spears. 350 florins is a more acceptable price, somehow I managed to write the price wrong last time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif but Armour 3 is equal to Saracens and CS, and it is those I want to give the Byz an equivalent to. I don't think the Armoured Spearmen will be worth all that much, they are just an intermidiate spearunit.

Gothic MAA: Well, I have thought of giving them an AP weapon like the Militia units and removing the shield. The point of them is really that I feel the game has lost an important aspect of the fighting men in Late...

The Saracens: Purely a gamebalancing issue, I have not heard of Saracens fighting with swords alone, just that they were rather good with their scimitars. They didn't exist, but neither did the Ghazi as axemen... I want these to match the development in High, but not as an equal of the CMAA. Jannisary Infantry is good but they just doesn't cut it, and neither does the Futuwwas.

[econ21]

Kraxis, please don't tell me the Ghazi axemen did not exist I saw them in an army list for Terry Gore's Medieval Warfare minatures rules, so I thought they must have existed. Now you are making me question that. I just ordered a book, Armies and Enemies of the Crusades, which might give me a little more information.

[Kraxis]

Well, the Islamic dictionary states that Ghazis are Muslim Warriors but that could mean any Muslim warrior be it Jannisaries or Mamlukes, Futuwwas or Nizaris...

[kaaskop]

God i love a good stat argument http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]Skutatoi... They are certainly not that good. Yes they have a powerful attack but a weak defense. Attack 3 and Defense 3 after the shield is counted in. A unique unit in terms of spears. 350 florins is a more acceptable price, somehow I managed to write the price wrong last time but Armour 3 is equal to Saracens and CS, and it is those I want to give the Byz an equivalent to. I don't think the Armoured Spearmen will be worth all that much, they are just an intermidiate spearunit.


well ok lets compare them to the current most powerfull spear :Order foot/italian inf
attack 0 defense 5 with shield cost 400.
Wich means the stukatoi have more combat power ,so therefore the high cost

Flemish: i believe the site you are refering too is liebaarts wich describes the f militia exactly like you did .I have two points
1) the site describes an army not a unit ,in mtw this could
easely reflect to a unit of Flemish militia backed by regular spear plus that's the only site on courtrai that desribes the flemish forces in that formation (altough
i must admit this was by far the most informative )
2) Also the Goedendag flemish milita will only represent
a brief period of the flemish militia outlook throughout
the middle ages ,since the goedendag was only popular for a brief period of time .

as for Ghazi axemen i'm pretty sure they did exsist just like Ghazi cav and Ghazi spear ,etc ,etc
Ghazi was a general term for warriors although i've seen metion of "holy warriors" but i don't know how serious you should take that

[Kraxis]

Ahh.. indeed... How could I ever have overlooked that with the Skutatoi? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
So the change should be to attack: 2 and defense: 0.

The Flemish could easily be portrayed with a unit of Spearmen with Urban Militia mixed in. But how boring isn't that?
And before Courtrai I haven't been able find texts about armies with combined arms as such. So either they weren't effective or the Flemish actually invented the idea.
Yes the Goedendag was only used in a short period (as far as I know) but it would still be an effective weapon.