PDA

View Full Version : The Ethics of Historical Reenactment


PanzerJaeger
10-13-2010, 01:17
There has been a recent flap (http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/10/12/candidate.nazi.outfit/?hpt=T2) in the United States over a congressional candidate who was photographed a number of years ago dressed as a 5.SS Wiking soldier.


A Republican candidate running for U.S. Congress says his past donning of a Nazi outfit was part of a historical lesson -- and defended his background in military re-enactments.

Rich Iott, a Tea Party favorite running for election in Ohio's 9th Congressional District, explained his position during an interview on CNN's "AC 360" Monday night.

Iott participated in World War II re-enactments for several years in the past decade and created a German alter ego. He has said he started participating in the events as a way to bond with his son. Iott has also participated in Civil War and World War I re-enactments.

"The whole purpose of historical re-enacting is to educate people one-on-one," Iott said. "And that is done by going out and participating in re-enactments."

When asked whether he thought the men being impersonated were "valiant men," Iott said, "I don't think we can sit here and judge that today. We were not there the time they made those decisions. Were there bad people? Absolutely. Were there atrocities committed? Absolutely there were. There are people that want to deny the Holocaust ever happened in this country and around the world."

The website for Iott's re-enactment group -- which impersonates members of the 5th SS Panzerdivision, Wiking -- does not mention the Holocaust directly.

According to Wiking's website, it is a nonprofit group with a "common interest in the German side of the war and want to tell the story of the average combat soldier of the German military."

"Racism or any type of embracement of Nazi ideology of any kind is strictly prohibited by this re-enactment unit," the website reads.

But the website does not mention what historians have said about the division -- that the group was involved in war crimes and atrocities, including the death marches and massacres of Jews in the spring of 1945.

When asked if Iott knew of the atrocities associated with the SS, the candidate replied, "What happened in Germany during the second World War is absolutely one of the low points in human history. In fact ... [the website] talks about what happened and that we don't support that. We don't support the political or the ideological motives of that time. We're talking strictly about the history. It's important for us to remember that history."

Iott's political opponents were quick to condemn him as a "Nazi enthusiast."

"It's an unbelievably disturbing story here about this Nazi enthusiast," Ryan Rudominer, national press secretary for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, has said.


This story hit close to home for me, as I also have strong interest in the German military of the era. Whereas Civil War reenacting used to be the big thing (especially here in the South), WW2 reenactment seems to be on the ascendency. I have been asked several times to join German units here, but time has not allowed it (and frankly it seems like a lot of work and not so much fun).

They all seemed to share the same strict 'racism or any type of embracement of Nazi ideology of any kind is strictly prohibited by this re-enactment unit' disclaimers and I never saw a problem with it on a moral level. To me it has always been easy to separate an admiration for the ability of the German military from the political ideology it fought to promote.

What do you guys think? Does playing the 'bad guys', be it Germans, Confederates, or Russians (yes there are Russian units) on the weekend say something about a person on a moral level, or can reenactment be clearly separated from ideology? Is reenactment in any way a political statement, and should it be used against a candidate?
a completely inoffensive name
10-13-2010, 01:28
We must not abandon informing about the past just because we don't want the hateful or disgusting images we have associated with some aspects of it in front of our own eyes.

EDIT: made it more clear.
Sasaki Kojiro
10-13-2010, 01:29
I think it's likely the flap is overdone...

The article headline I read said "Why is the republican candidate wearing a nazi uniform?" and even after reading it I can't exactly answer it. I just don't know anyone with an interest in that and don't know what it's all about. So there's a void in my answering the "why" which the article writer presumably hoped I would fill with "because he's a nazi!" or something...
PanzerJaeger
10-13-2010, 01:38
Reenactment is essentially military history enthusiasts getting to dress up and play army. Of course, it is taken to insane levels of accuracy (some units even demand that you learn the language of the people you're representing). Guys obsess over historically accurate belt buckles, caps, and the like, with the goal of creating as accurate a portrayal of life in X war as possible.

And for those who don't know the first thing about reenacting, there are tons of American, British, and even some French and Polish units, and some portray both an Allied and Axis formation. It's not German/Confederate only by any means...
Lemur
10-13-2010, 05:14
I think it's likely the flap is overdone...
Aren't most of them? Any instant, catchy scandal should be viewed with strict suspicion.

Personally I have no problem with people dressing up and playing make-believe for a while. Non-issue. I do think, however, that if you have political aspirations it shows very poor judgment to allow yourself to be photographed in an SS uniform.
rory_20_uk
10-13-2010, 09:25
Should every battle have the goodies (i.e. victors) fighting people wearing grey cloth? Historical reenactment now needs to purge anything that is nasty about war...

~:smoking:
InsaneApache
10-13-2010, 10:14
In the picture I saw he was wearing a kilt and the jacket of an RAF navigator. I dunno which is worse.
Ja'chyra
10-13-2010, 10:21
In the picture I saw he was wearing a kilt and the jacket of an RAF navigator. I dunno which is worse.


Ooh, harsh.

When asked whether he thought the men being impersonated were "valiant men,"

Undoubtedly there were heroes in the German army and among the nazi's, your beliefs don't preclude heroic actions.
rory_20_uk
10-13-2010, 10:31
Americans do like history to be dumbed down to the level of a 5 year old, don't they? The Germans were Evil Nazis and had no good in them and were defeated by the Good, Heroic Allies (USA, UK, USSR). A switch was flicked and the Germans were Good Allies and the USSR was Evil. The Germans now being Good Allies now were used to help US with their Good technology which magically appeared in 1945 and had nothing whatsoever to do with the Evil Germans prior to the flicked switch.

~:smoking:
Hosakawa Tito
10-13-2010, 10:49
Stop trying to confuse the issue you evil Red Coat.

Misrepresenting the facts about your opponent in a political campaign is the American Way.
miotas
10-13-2010, 15:00
America, you should be very worried. I've read about Gengis Khan and played as the mongols in games, and right now I am saving up so some mates and I can go and raze cities across Eurasia and leave mountains of skulls behind. Clearly, like me, this man is planning something sinister.
al Roumi
10-13-2010, 15:29
Panzerjaeger, I may be reading something non-existant between the lines but it seems you might think their is a difference between re-enacting as a Wehrmacht Soldier/unit or SS Soldier/unit?

For my part, I would find it hard to understand how someone could really want to associate themselves with the SS to the extent of re-enactment. And I'd understand the same vein of comment re: bomber command pilots.

Anyone want to try a Pol-pot costume? (to fit a small size).
rory_20_uk
10-13-2010, 15:35
So... just rub them out of existence a la Brave New World?

~:smoking:
Strike For The South
10-13-2010, 16:15
Anyone who dresses up as a Russian or a German is clearly evil.
al Roumi
10-13-2010, 16:18
Anyone who dresses up as a Russian or a German is clearly evil.

:smile: maybe not, but i'd certainly think they might be a bit odd.
Slyspy
10-13-2010, 16:34
Err, no. Associations with the SS should probably be avoided by those of a political bent. Personally I would avoid them even if I was a WW2 re-enactment or roleplay fan since the idea makes me rather uncomfortable. Each to their own though.
PanzerJaeger
10-13-2010, 17:36
Panzerjaeger, I may be reading something non-existant between the lines but it seems you might think their is a difference between re-enacting as a Wehrmacht Soldier/unit or SS Soldier/unit?

For my part, I would find it hard to understand how someone could really want to associate themselves with the SS to the extent of re-enactment. And I'd understand the same vein of comment re: bomber command pilots.

Anyone want to try a Pol-pot costume? (to fit a small size).

The Waffen-SS, as differentiated from the SS in general and other SS branches, had some of the best (and, ironically, worst) combat divisions that served in the war. The particular unit mentioned in the article is one of the most 'elite' (for lack of a better term) divisions of the 20th century and I can understand why they chose it on those merits.
Louis VI the Fat
10-13-2010, 17:56
If you play an Orc in a Tolkien re-enactment, odds are you do not dream of living in Orcistan.


This simple truth, however, is misused to a) lend an air of respectability to a fascination for anything nazi that goes beyond the pursuit of historical sensation. And b), more covertly and indirectly, towards the grand project of normalisation of nazism.



'I re-enact Auschwitz. I play camp guard, my buddies play running Jews.
Do I think that there were bad people running the camps? Sure, there are bad people everywhere. Also, let's not forget the nuance that the Holocaust was performed largely by Jews themselves with very few Germans involved.'



"I don't think we can sit here and judge that today. We were not there the time they made those decisions. Were there bad people? Absolutely. Were there atrocities committed? Absolutely there were."Ah man, this is as Nazi as they come.

It's that whole slightly tiresome brew again of denial, diminished responsibility, blurring of morality etc etc.
Strike For The South
10-13-2010, 18:11
Do I think that there were bad people running the camps? Sure, there are bad people everywhere. Also, let's not forget the nuance that the Holocaust was performed largely by Jews themselves with very few Germans involved.'


.

lulz
Veho Nex
10-13-2010, 18:18
According to the guys who are going against this, if I reenact a confederate in a civil war reenactment i support secession and slavery
PanzerJaeger
10-13-2010, 18:49
Ah man, this is as Nazi as they come.

It's that whole slightly tiresome brew again of denial, diminished responsibility, blurring of morality etc etc.

I would call it a rather nuanced, historically accurate position. Also, your jab in the above text did not go unnoticed, sir.:brood:
Lemur
10-13-2010, 19:41
If you play an Orc in a Tolkien re-enactment, odds are you do not dream of living in Orcistan.
Sir, please stop the vehicle and surrender your geek card immediately. As any true-blue nerd could tell you, orcs mostly live in Mordor, which is ruled by Sauron of the Unblinking Eye. There are, of course, some orcs in Mirkwood and the Mines of Moria, and garden-variety orcs are rather different from the Uruk-hai.

Sheesh. Do I have to spell everything out for you?
Rhyfelwyr
10-13-2010, 21:57
I thought it was goblins in Moria? And they are smaller than normal orcs?

Anyway, I agree with Louis, I think this guy has some Nazi sympathies, you get the feeling with these people that they are condeming it but they aren't really condeming it.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-14-2010, 04:56
According to the guys who are going against this, if I reenact a confederate in a civil war reenactment i support secession and slavery

I have heard quite a few people -- a minority, but not a fringe minority -- express EXACTLY that point of view.

It is common for historical re-enactors to do their "living history" out of a sense of interest in past lifestyles. Many people cannot interpret those actions save by using the lens of the mores/sensibilities of the present.


Yes, in general, yanks loathe ambiguity and like our villains in black hats for easy recognition. In addition, they should be defeated no later than 5 minutes before the end of the broadcast so that there is appropriate time for a little denouement and some T&A.
Veho Nex
10-14-2010, 08:27
There are orcs in moria, and goblins as well.
Lemur
10-14-2010, 14:44
VINDICATION! (I was getting worried there. Nothing more horrible than getting called out for inaccuracies when you're calling someone out.)
Veho Nex
10-14-2010, 17:27
VINDICATION! (I was getting worried there. Nothing more horrible than getting called out for inaccuracies when you're calling someone out.)

Its less focused on in the books, and even less showed in the movies. They exist in the games and in the published fan fics of the Tolkien universe. So you can take it as they do and do not exist.


Azog

Azog was the name of an Orc chieftain who lived in Moria from about T.A. 2480 to 2799.
He precipitated the War of the Dwarves and Orcs in T.A. 2790 by killing King Thrór, who came to revisit the ruins of Khazad-dûm.
In the following years, he was the common enemy of all Dwarves, and the war he started climaxed in the Battle of Azanulbizar, where he killed Náin, only to be himself slain by Náin's son Dáin.
His son, Bolg, inherited the rulership in Moria and continued it for another 150 years.
Azog is also a hero for the Goblins in The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II 's expansion pack The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II: The Rise of the Witch-king.
Louis VI the Fat
10-14-2010, 22:33
Pft.

Orcs live in Mortor.
InsaneApache
10-15-2010, 05:18
You gotta hand it to Hugo Boss, he did a natty line in black and silver uniforms.
Fisherking
10-16-2010, 09:12
It is just politics as usual. Anything that can made to look bad for an opponent will.

That said, there are people with minds so small that they do think that dressing in the clothes of the vile make them support the ideas.

If you have political aspirations be careful what costume you ware for Halloween...
Fragony
10-16-2010, 11:55
A non issue but he should have known what the howlers would use it for. Nazi uniforms are crazy awesome by the way, they look cool so I must kill jews now can't control it
Beskar
10-16-2010, 13:00
A non issue but he should have known what the howlers would use it for. Nazi uniforms are crazy awesome by the way, they look cool so I must kill jews now can't control it

Wearing Hugo Boss = You want to kill Jews ?
miotas
10-16-2010, 13:44
There are orcs in moria, and goblins as well.

Goblin is just what orcs are called in "The Hobbit"