Explaining geopolitics to a seven year-old [Archive]

Lemur

10-13-2010, 05:37

My eldest lemurling, who is seven, has been asking a lot of difficult questions lately. "Aren't we in a war?" "Two? Why don't people talk about it more?" "Why are we in them?" "Are we going to win?" And so on and so forth.

I found myself in the strange position of trying to explain the concept of insurgency and counter-insurgency to my little son at bathtime. "Unexpected" doesn't begin to cover it.

I worry at these moments. If I explain the situation with anything less than total clarity, he's going to repeat some garbled version of what I just said, which fills me with dread. But getting a little kid to understand, really understand some of these concepts and realities stretches my ability to explain to the breaking point.

Here's a rough transcript of my (futile?) attempt to explain insurgency:

Lemurling: So we have the best army in the world?

Lemur: Yes, absolutely. There's nobody who can stand up to us in a regular fight.

Lemurling: So we won.

Lemur: Not exactly.

Lemurling: So we're losing.

Lemur: No, not exactly. We're fighting what's called an insurgency.

Lemurling: A what?

[Long pause.]

Lemur: Okay, let's say aliens invade our town. There are alien gunships in the sky. There are alien tanks on the street. Aliens go door to door and ask a lot of questions. How do we fight them?

Lemurling: We only have a few police.

Lemur: Right.

Lemuring: How do we fight them?

Lemur: That's the question.

Lemurling: Um ... we can't fight them.

Lemur: Actually, there's a way. Let's say an alien comes to the door and asks if I'm going to fight. "Oh no, Mister Alien," I tell him, "I love you guys. Go aliens! Rah!" But maybe that night I plant a bomb by the road and I blow up one of their tanks.

Lemurling: But then they'd know and they'd get you.

Lemur: No, when the aliens come back I say, "Oh no, mister nice alien, I have no idea who blew up your tank, but I'll make sure to keep an eye out."

Lemurling: You'd lie!

Lemur: That's how you do it. That's how you fight when the other guys have all the guns and gear. It's always bad to lie, but we're talking about an enemy who has overwhelming force.

Lemurling: I get it.

Lemur: Okay, well here's the thing: we're the aliens.

Lemurling: WHAT?

Lemur: We're the ones with the helicopters, the tanks, the planes, the gear. We're the ones nobody can stand up to. Depending on how you look at it, we won the war in Afghanistan eight or nine years ago. It's this insurgency we're having a hard time with.

[Long pause.]

Lemurling: So why don't we just kill them all?

Lemur: [laughing] That's what the Romans would do. And it would work. But killing everyone, men women and children, that wouldn't go down well in the world.

Lemurling: No, no, no, separate the bad guys and just kill them.

Lemur: So who's the bad guys?

Lemurling: Ask them.

Lemur: Oh no Mister nice alien, I never did anything bad.

Lemurling: They'll lie.

Lemur: Yes. Of course. Wouldn't you?

Lemurling: This is tough. Let me think about this. I know I can figure this out.

Lemur: Puppy, the smartest people in our military have been thinking about this for years. It's a very hard question.

[long pause]

Lemurling: So how do we win?

Lemur: I don't know. How would the aliens win in our town?

Lemurling: I don't know.

Lemur: I think eventually the aliens just have to leave. There's no way we would ever accept them.

Lemurling: Or they could kill everyone.

Lemur: Yes, that would work too.
So help a lemur out here. If you have kids, have you tried to explain concepts like this to them? How did you go about doing it? If you're still a young'un, do you have any memories of how your mammy or pappy approached this stuff? I'd like to hear some real examples, if at all possible.

And lastly, am i on a fool's errand, trying to explain this sort of thing to a first-grader? He really wants to know, but should I put him off for a bit, let him grow up a little before I try to explain these things?

a completely inoffensive name

10-13-2010, 06:20

I have to say holy ****, because that was some damn good parenting imo. Explain everything, if he doesn't understand tell him time, knowledge and more thinking will provide the answer always.

EDIT: I don't have an memories of such an event, so I can't help you much there.

Sasaki Kojiro

10-13-2010, 06:26

My parents used to just let me watch the Mclaughlin group. I loved it :laugh4:

rory_20_uk

10-13-2010, 10:19

I think it's like any other subject one has to start form the basics to grow a frame of reference.

This is such a difficult one as it requires a decent grasp of several other subjects.

I'd build up from easier examples such as a bog standard war and aftermath and go from there. There are many historical examples where you've got the whole narrative spelt out for you so you can see what happened - e.g. the counter insurgency in Malaysia is one that is a good time in the past and not contentious.

As you say, garbled repeats could end up with dad saying we need to kill all the Muslims to win which could make for an interesting Parent / Teacher meeting...

~:smoking:

al Roumi

10-13-2010, 17:21

Given the complexity of the issue, I think you did a good job there Lemur. No kids of my own (yet) but explaining that "we" might not be the good guys is a tough one to get accross...

Lemur

10-13-2010, 17:41

[E]xplaining that "we" might not be the good guys is a tough one to get accross...
That isn't even what I was aiming for; I just wanted him to get, on a gut level, what an "insurgency" was, and why it's so difficult to fight.

Beskar

10-14-2010, 00:12

He has advanced a stage further than the republicans, who just go "Nuke them all". Very good progress.

Rhyfelwyr

10-14-2010, 00:16

Well he did say to kill them all a few times. TotalWar is in his blood!

Vladimir

10-14-2010, 00:31

Well he did say to kill them all a few times. TotalWar is in his blood!

Indeed, very insightful. Believe it or not, that's a good place to start from. A more idealistic approach would eventually lead to a regression toward this rather than a growth from it; this, you can build upon.

He'll likely think about it some more. The best thing to do is introduce him to a variety of people during his life. He'll eventually grow out of the kill 'em all phase and learn...which ones to kill. By that, of course, I mean recognize the bad people from the good ones.

Right now he has the 50,000 foot view. Work toward a human terrain team by 18.

He could have said: Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. That would make Vladimir so proud of his son, Ivan.

Lemur

10-14-2010, 06:44

Right now he has the 50,000 foot view. Work toward a human terrain team by 18.
Oh man, I hope he can achieve humanity a little earlier than that. I don't want to wait eleven years to have a nuanced conversation with my son.

Sasaki, how old were you when your parents started letting you watch Mclaughlin Group? If you were a little one, did you feel like you still got something out of it?

Sasaki Kojiro

10-14-2010, 06:52

Around 8 I think; I don't know that I got anything out of it though. Except that that kind of thing involved talking really fast and interrupting people and using big words and I didn't understand it. I ignored politics till my late teens...maybe as a result :p

a completely inoffensive name

10-14-2010, 10:38

Oh man, I hope he can achieve humanity a little earlier than that. I don't want to wait eleven years to have a nuanced conversation with my son.

Sasaki, how old were you when your parents started letting you watch Mclaughlin Group? If you were a little one, did you feel like you still got something out of it?

You might be waiting 11 years, but then you will be able to have those conversations for the rest of your life. To be honest Lemur, if he gets to that point by 16-18 he is already ahead of the game. Don't forget that many youth are so ignorant about this stuff even until their twenties or more. Trust me, the majority of people I have met at my university don't really think beyond one or two statements they agree with when it comes to many subjects.

EDIT: Example. Was watching the California Gubernatorial Debate the other day. I'm trying to watch it in the tv in my apartments common area, half the time the stoner roommate comes in loud as hell and starts making a big ruckus with some of the female roommates (flirting). Really, really loud talking and laughing. Then he starts making a joke of the whole thing while I am trying to watch (after every single statement no matter what subject he would say something to the tune of "They are both lying! They want to stop me from smoking pot even though it doesn't have any side effects whatsoever!"). Then one of my female roommates takes a look at the tv for about 12 seconds and then says "That ugly guy is going to lose." "Who? Jerry Brown?" "Yeah, he just looks ugly and his voice is terrible, he isn't going to win. I'm going to vote for the woman." Cue second female roommate "But she is so ugly too!". Complete facepalm on my part at this point.

You should be so lucky Lemur, the fact you had this conversation with your kid and the way it turned out makes your child more contemplative then some college aged people I have met. Idk what you did, but you are doing something right.

EDIT 2: Also, if you have a daughter and she doesn't watch Gossip Girl, Glee or Jersey Shore you are raising the kid better then 60% of the girls I have met at college.

Hosakawa Tito

10-14-2010, 10:49

Hehehe, I remember watching the nightly news as a lad during the Vietnam war. They always had to give out the body count totals like it was a football score. Walter Cronkite also frequently described the VC & NVA as "guerillas", and in my little boy mind I thought they meant gorillas. "Dad, why are they shooting gorillas?":laugh4:

You're doing a fine job 'splaining Lem. Don't put him off, you're his go to guy for the answers to life's mysteries.

al Roumi

10-14-2010, 11:13

That isn't even what I was aiming for; I just wanted him to get, on a gut level, what an "insurgency" was, and why it's so difficult to fight.

If only there were a version of Mao's "on guerilla warfare" for 8-10 year olds... Actually, I'm very glad there isn't.

drone

10-14-2010, 12:54

Lemurling: So why don't we just kill them all?
You have said several times on this forum that your boy will grow up to rule the world. I believe he is well on his way. :yes:

rory_20_uk

10-14-2010, 13:05

Fragony

10-14-2010, 13:30

My sister had a similar approach to solving the ongoing famine in Africa: better a sudden genocide and rebuild than an ongoing slow lingering death with no solutions in sight... It has a sociopathic logic to it.

~:smoking:

lol still on speaking terms

OT the Anne Frank diary is written from a child's perspective, she isn't angry or bitter, only confused and amazed that this is actually happening. Pretty much asking all existional questions wthwhy-technically.

al Roumi

10-14-2010, 14:08

Skullheadhq

10-14-2010, 14:22

"Aren't we in a war?"
Yes

"Why are we in them?"
Oil, Money and revenge

"Are we going to win?"
No

That's as easy as it gets

Lemur

10-14-2010, 14:57

My lemurling definitely shares my sense of humor. Recently he heard (at school, I think) that we had declared the end of the Iraq war. Sort of. So he asks me, "Isn't that a big deal?"

"Sure, of course," I say.

"So why aren't we having parades and stuff? Don't you have a parade when a war is over?"

"Um, listen, it's complicated. We already declared the thing in Iraq over and won, a long time ago. We had another president then."

"Who?"

"His name was Bush, but you won't remember him. Anyway, he thought the war was over, so he did this big thing, flew onto an aircraft carrier, had big banners, bands playing, the whole set-up. And he declared, basically, that we had won."

"Good! Good!"

"Yes, but there was one problem."

"What?"

"We kept fighting for another eight years."

"EIGHT YEARS?"

"Eight years. So everybody's a little ... umm ... sensitive about declaring victory. We're kinda being mellow about it this time."

[Long pause, then Lemurling begins laughing hysterically.]

"Eight years? Eight years? We fought for eight more years? So he's like, 'It's over,' and eight years? Ha ha ha ha!"

"Yup. And you're only seven years old. So that president's mistake lasted longer than you've been alive. Goofy, huh?"

"Eight years! Wow! Ha ha ha ha!"

"And even now we have thousands of troops there, and who knows when they'll ever come home. So ... no parades this time."

Fragony

10-14-2010, 15:11

Compliments to writing, that is good. Perfect rythem

naut

10-14-2010, 16:14

If I end up half as good a parent as you I'll be a happy man. :bow:

Rhyfelwyr

10-14-2010, 16:35

Maybe you could have made it clearer from the start that is is not a case of USA v Afghanistan/Iraq, it does make it sound like a total war scenario where one goes out to obliterate/subdue the other, maybe that's why the Lemurling thought of killing all the Afghans.

Maybe you could have said how a lot of the Afghans were being bullied by the Taliban, and so the US went in to help the ordinary Afghans out? And that Afghans aren't just a single group of people like we usually think of when we think of countries, but they have all sorts of conflicts between themselves like with the Pashtuns and other ethnic groups etc.

Strike For The South

10-14-2010, 16:37

EDIT: Example. Was watching the California Gubernatorial Debate the other day. I'm trying to watch it in the tv in my apartments common area, half the time the stoner roommate comes in loud as hell and starts making a big ruckus with some of the female roommates (flirting). Really, really loud talking and laughing. Then he starts making a joke of the whole thing while I am trying to watch (after every single statement no matter what subject he would say something to the tune of "They are both lying! They want to stop me from smoking pot even though it doesn't have any side effects whatsoever!"). Then one of my female roommates takes a look at the tv for about 12 seconds and then says "That ugly guy is going to lose." "Who? Jerry Brown?" "Yeah, he just looks ugly and his voice is terrible, he isn't going to win. I'm going to vote for the woman." Cue second female roommate "But she is so ugly too!". Complete facepalm on my part at this point.

You should be so lucky Lemur, the fact you had this conversation with your kid and the way it turned out makes your child more contemplative then some college aged people I have met. Idk what you did, but you are doing something right.

EDIT 2: Also, if you have a daughter and she doesn't watch Gossip Girl, Glee or Jersey Shore you are raising the kid better then 60% of the girls I have met at college.

You need to calm down

Good Job Lemur, my parents never mentioned politics until I graduated high school. They have always felt they were uselss

Lemur

10-14-2010, 17:19

Maybe you could have said how a lot of the Afghans were being bullied by the Taliban, and so the US went in to help the ordinary Afghans out? And that Afghans aren't just a single group of people like we usually think of when we think of countries, but they have all sorts of conflicts between themselves like with the Pashtuns and other ethnic groups etc.
Oh, gosh, all of that is valid, but I try to be careful how much I try to cram into my little lemur's head at one go. I almost always preface this sort of conversation by saying, "It's complicated, but I can explain part of it." It's gotten to be something of a joke with my lemurling. "Dad, you know how you always say 'It's complicated?' "

I don't want him to get the impression that there are things he simply can't understand, 'cause I think that sends a bad message, but I try to limit the scope of each explanation. Like I said, at bathtime two nights ago I was just trying to give him a tangible understanding of insurgency. If I could just communicate that clearly I would feel full of win.

I only explained racism a few weeks ago, and I don't think he got it. The idea that someone would judge an entire group of people based on trivial physical appearances ... I think that went right over his head. Or under, rather. I don't know if I'm ready to try to explain tribalism just yet.

The worst one was when he asked me in the car if Christmas was Jesus' birthday. Ooooh, that stung. My inner thought process:

Do I say, see, there was a Roman festival of Sol Invictus, and then the Roman empire became Christian, but not right away ... no. Absolutely not. Do I just say "Yes"? What about my vow to never feed him bad info for any reason? Do I violate that for my own convenience? Maybe I boil it down a little, say something like, "It was a holy day for a long time and then the Christians decided to use it for Jesus to keep things simple." No, no good, then he'll be asking when Jesus' real birthday is, and I don't know, 'cause nobody knows. Grrrrr.

Finally I gave him, "That's the tradition."

"What's a 'tradition'?"

Grrrr.

al Roumi

10-14-2010, 17:35

By the sound of it, you may find this relevant:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/airfoil.png

http://xkcd.com/803/

Vladimir

10-14-2010, 17:40

Christmas is easy: It's when we celebrate the birth of Jesus. Like a federal holiday, which, for me, is one in the same.

He needs to understand that there are things he doesn't understand, things he will never truly *know*, and that it's impossible to completely know or understand anything. The important thing is the quest for knowledge.

Lemur

10-14-2010, 17:40

Yeah, I feel a twinge of guilt every time I say "It's complicated," but then I try to make up for it by explaining some aspect of what he's asking. And of course if I don't know I just tell him that I don't know. Those are the easy ones. "What kind of tree is that?"

"I don't know, puppy. You should ask your grandma. She's very smart about biology and trees and that sort of thing."

Yeah, the I dunno questions are a walk. It's the ones where I do know but there are just too many angles to explain quickly that knock me back.

Christmas is easy: It's when we celebrate the birth of Jesus.
At that moment, while driving, I found the answer exceptionally hard.

He needs to understand that there are things he doesn't understand, things he will never truly *know*, and that it's impossible to completely know or understand anything. The important thing is the quest for knowledge.
Well, I don't know if I entirely agree; you can certainly master aspects of some knowledge. Maybe you'll never jot down every digit in Pi, for example, but you can figure out enough of it to use it in an engineering problem. And so forth.

But it's all about the quest for knowledge? Absolutely. Damn straight.

Sasaki Kojiro

10-14-2010, 17:44

If it ever stresses you out, you can reread some of those calvin and hobbes comments and live vicariously through calvin's dad..."that's because the world really was black and white back then".

al Roumi

10-14-2010, 17:50

I think the "wrongness" in the XKCD example is not the "it's complicated" but the "we need to move on". It's slamming the door on inquisitiveness which needs to be avoided, and it sounds like you certainly don't do that!

I think it's important to understand things are complicated. If your Lemurling gets into science, he'll discover that not everything he is told is always true. I still remember my surprise when finding out that the "plum pudding" (or quasi solar system) atomic model (neutrons & protons in centre, sperical electrons wizing around) wasn't actually right -and I was 17 then...

Samurai Waki

10-14-2010, 18:53

I don't know if the girls are even aware there's a world outside of Mom, dad, grandma, and grandpa... then again they're only four.

I don't think you could have explained it any better, it's a complicated issue and it's not easy to understand for many adults.

Lemur

10-14-2010, 19:31

... then again they're only four.
Yeah, this is a kind of recent development. Trust me, I was not getting grilled about our military commitments when he was in preschool. He started wanting to know a lot more about the world in kindergarten and it's had an exponential growth curve since he hit first grade.

Vladimir

10-14-2010, 19:42

Has he been peeking over your shoulder while you're posting here?

a completely inoffensive name

10-14-2010, 20:09

You need to calm down

Not when they are voting.

gaelic cowboy

10-14-2010, 21:40

Rhyfelwyr

10-14-2010, 21:56

The worst one was when he asked me in the car if Christmas was Jesus' birthday. Ooooh, that stung. My inner thought process:

Just say what I would tell any future kids: Christmas is a pagan festival kept by the Romanists to cast us back into the bondage of the law. *we need the surprise smilie!*

I don't have any kids, but my brother has asked me questions on political issues ever since he was around 8, usually inspired by his playing of PC games, films, or some basic history he's been taught at school. The most recent example I can think of is when he asked something about the Nazi's (thar be a Godwin!), and for some reason when I explain things I have to go right back and try to take away all our modern assumptions etc, so I went on forever about the issue of class struggle and the idea of nationalism, through to the shorter-term factors like the depression, WWI reparations (don't get upset Louis!), and eventually got onto explaining how national socialism was a response to these issues.

I think he just about understood it as well. :sweatdrop:

Some things which might appear simpler proved harder though. Trying to explain that the term 'Jew' applies to both a religion and an ethnic group took a long time to get anywhere with (never mind explaining what an ethnic group was).

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88

10-15-2010, 01:31

Carebear Hussars can beat any terrorists!

Beskar

10-15-2010, 02:37

I still remember my surprise when finding out that the "plum pudding" (or quasi solar system) atomic model (neutrons & protons in centre, sperical electrons wizing around) wasn't actually right -and I was 17 then...

Well, it is still right. Just having them characterized in terms of the S, P, D and F orbits wasn't a major step in understanding.

Then again, I was never taught the 'plum pudding' model either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plum_pudding_model

I don't get why or how anyone was ever taught that one.

al Roumi

10-15-2010, 11:01

Yeah, the diagram on that wiki page is a strange one. I was more used to this one:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/46/Bohr_model_3.jpg

The idea of electrons not as spherical particles but clouds (and not neccessarily discrete lumps), as in the the following diagram was weird.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Helium_atom_QM.svg

Lets not talk about light either... there's a reason I studied engineering (not physics) and then even left that as a discipline!

a completely inoffensive name

10-15-2010, 19:55

The plum pudding model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plum_pudding_model) is wrong. The plum pudding model states that the elections are surrounded in a positively charged cloud no nucleus involved. That was proven false by the Geiger–Marsden experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_foil_experiment) in 1909 where Ernest Rutherford and his team shot alpha particles at gold foil which gave results that could only be explained by an incredibly small positively charged nucleus center with negatively charged elections orbiting it with the majority of the space itself being completely empty. This new model is the Rutherford model which was better but not perfect. After that Niels Bohr improved upon the model a lot. The picture you posted alh_p is the Rutherford-Bohr model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_model).

However that model as shown by the picture isn't 100% right either because elections do not orbit in circles like planets around the sun but have atomic orbitals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbitals)/clouds. Since then there have been a lot of quantum mechanic progress on the model but that stuff is over my head, however one of the more straightforward quantum mechanic improvements is that the elections in their clouds cannot have its position and velocity determined simultaneously under the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle)

Tellos Athenaios

10-15-2010, 21:13

However that model as shown by the picture isn't 100% right either because elections do not orbit in circles like planets around the sun but have atomic orbitals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbitals)/clouds. [/URL]

Actually it gets a bit more complex than that (for people in final years of highschool). The Bohr model works on a quantum mechanical level, so you need to understand first that an electron does not “orbit” itself per se. Rather it is something a bit like light, which behaves both as wave and as particle. The Bohr model merely explains physical properties of the atom, for instance fluorescence.

However it does not work at all well for chemical properties of elements nor for structure of “molecules” or other compounds made up of multiple elements. Then it quickly gets pretty scary because those orbits are now described in terms of partial differential equations which for even simple elements like H2 are a bit more than most people can stomach. But it's that more complex model of an orbit which when applied to multiple electrons gives the impression/appearance of a cloud when graphed in 3d (rather than it actually being a cloud itself).

So to sum up, in highschool Bohr is still correct in physics, and in chemistry you learn about the more complex quantum “configurations” of various electrons which is a different way of saying the same thing as in the Bohr model with the proviso you know a bit (but probably don't fully understand any of it) about those partial differential equations that come to define the conceptually simpler orbits previously taught.

Also: planets do not move in circular orbits around the Sun, due among other things to the interaction with other planets.

a completely inoffensive name

10-16-2010, 01:21

Actually it gets a bit more complex than that (for people in final years of highschool). The Bohr model works on a quantum mechanical level, so you need to understand first that an electron does not “orbit” itself per se. Rather it is something a bit like light, which behaves both as wave and as particle. The Bohr model merely explains physical properties of the atom, for instance fluorescence.

However it does not work at all well for chemical properties of elements nor for structure of “molecules” or other compounds made up of multiple elements. Then it quickly gets pretty scary because those orbits are now described in terms of partial differential equations which for even simple elements like H2 are a bit more than most people can stomach. But it's that more complex model of an orbit which when applied to multiple electrons gives the impression/appearance of a cloud when graphed in 3d (rather than it actually being a cloud itself).

So to sum up, in highschool Bohr is still correct in physics, and in chemistry you learn about the more complex quantum “configurations” of various electrons which is a different way of saying the same thing as in the Bohr model with the proviso you know a bit (but probably don't fully understand any of it) about those partial differential equations that come to define the conceptually simpler orbits previously taught.

Also: planets do not move in circular orbits around the Sun, due among other things to the interaction with other planets.

Ahh, I stand corrected (as a new freshman entering uni only a month ago).

EDIT: I should say I was only using the circular planetary orbit as an analogy since most pictures of the "Solar system" at a basic level of schooling show every orbit to be essentially circular even though they are indeed not exactly so and are actually either elliptical or a bunch of other possibilities.

Also when I was a Junior in high school I took the general Chemistry course and they took it up to the orbital/cloud diagrams, in my senior year I took the AP Physics course and they used the Bohr model. Perhaps if I took an advance Chemistry course instead of regular I would have gotten the more accurate version.

Megas Methuselah

10-16-2010, 06:35

EDIT: Example. Was watching the California Gubernatorial Debate the other day. I'm trying to watch it in the tv in my apartments common area, half the time the stoner roommate comes in loud as hell and starts making a big ruckus with some of the female roommates (flirting). Really, really loud talking and laughing. Then he starts making a joke of the whole thing while I am trying to watch (after every single statement no matter what subject he would say something to the tune of "They are both lying! They want to stop me from smoking pot even though it doesn't have any side effects whatsoever!"). Then one of my female roommates takes a look at the tv for about 12 seconds and then says "That ugly guy is going to lose." "Who? Jerry Brown?" "Yeah, he just looks ugly and his voice is terrible, he isn't going to win. I'm going to vote for the woman." Cue second female roommate "But she is so ugly too!". Complete facepalm on my part at this point.

You should be so lucky Lemur, the fact you had this conversation with your kid and the way it turned out makes your child more contemplative then some college aged people I have met. Idk what you did, but you are doing something right.

EDIT 2: Also, if you have a daughter and she doesn't watch Gossip Girl, Glee or Jersey Shore you are raising the kid better then 60% of the girls I have met at college.

Yeah. I lost my faith in my American neighbours long ago.

Rahwana

10-16-2010, 14:58

fighting insurgency is a bloody lesson for everyone, it was actually EASIER, FAR EASIER to just kill everyone (or almost everyone) at a province which we invade, and move on...

But when I underwent the compulsory conscript training, I knew much more about battlefield conducts and customs... and why our troops can't just kill everyone in certain rebellious provinces... that's because all those Human rights declarations... now, Americans must eat their own :daisy: they've used to opress another countries. (Sarcastic mode : ON)

Lemur

08-11-2011, 18:54

HoreTore

08-11-2011, 19:27

First off, I should clarify that I have little knowledge of teaching 7-8(?) year olds, I have only dealth with those 4-5 years older than that.

With that in mind, I'll give you my thoughts nonetheless, Lemur:

It seems like he is the one asking questions, and you are the one giving the answer. My suggestion is to try swapping it around. Not when it comes to specific facts, as he has no way of knowing those, but when it comes to the more moral questions.

Also, remember that an 8-year old is on the concrete operational stage. This means that he will have a hard time to understand abstracts, if he can at all. Thus, when explaining things, make sure you give concrete examples to underline your statements. The closer those examples are to his daily life, the better. He is, however, able to out himself in another persons perspective, and is capable of understanding relations between mutliple sizes(ie. if the spartans are worse than the japanese, and the nazis are worse than the spartans, then the nazis are also worse than the japanese). He may, however, have some problems with drawing conclusions which includes all the bits of information you give him, and this is something you shiuld be aware of. If you tell him that thing X has quality A, B and C, he may give his conclusion based on just B. To elaborate further on this one(and ignore the validity of the example, it's just an example):

When we pass our judgement on something, we usually make it on the basis of several negaties and positives. If we use the Nazi's as an example, we can judge them based on two opposing qualities(I'm keeping it simple here): first, that they killed a bunch of innocents, and secondly that they fought communism. When we pass our judgement on the nazi's, we weigh the negatives of killing the jews up against the positives of keeping communism in check. Our judgement will follow which of the two we give most weight. Someone in the concrete operational stage, however, is likely to just consider one of them when he concludes. For example, he will conclude that they're good just on the basis that they halted communism.

Lemur

08-11-2011, 19:32

It seems like he is the one asking questions, and you are the one giving the answer. My suggestion is to try swapping it around.
It's true, we have a weird sort of reverse-Socratic dialogue. Never really thought about it. He's my son, if he has questions I give answers. You're right, though, leading him with questions would be more artful. Here's the thing: come bathtime, I am tired. Usually a full day of work behind me, and I just want to get them clean and ready for bed. I'm not at my sharpest around then.

Also, remember that an 8-year old is on the concrete operational stage.
Fine, whatever you mean person, force me to look it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget%27s_theory_of_cognitive_development#Concrete_operational_stage). So this Piaget dude knew what he was talking about?

HoreTore

08-11-2011, 19:42

It's true, we have a weird sort of reverse-Socratic dialogue. Never really thought about it. He's my son, if he has questions I give answers. You're right, though, leading him with questions would be more artful. Here's the thing: come bathtime, I am tired. Usually a full day of work behind me, and I just want to get them clean and ready for bed. I'm not at my sharpest around then.

What this really is the difference between(what I would call) a transfer of knowledge(you giving answers) and learning by discovery(you asking questions for him to answer). Like most of my colleagues, I strongly favour the latter.

Fine, whatever you mean person, force me to look it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget%27s_theory_of_cognitive_development#Concrete_operational_stage). So this Piaget dude knew what he was talking about?

He did indeed! Along with Dewey and Vygotsky, he is the basis for basically any teacher's education.

Centurion1

08-11-2011, 20:27

You might be waiting 11 years, but then you will be able to have those conversations for the rest of your life. To be honest Lemur, if he gets to that point by 16-18 he is already ahead of the game. Don't forget that many youth are so ignorant about this stuff even until their twenties or more. Trust me, the majority of people I have met at my university don't really think beyond one or two statements they agree with when it comes to many subjects.

EDIT: Example. Was watching the California Gubernatorial Debate the other day. I'm trying to watch it in the tv in my apartments common area, half the time the stoner roommate comes in loud as hell and starts making a big ruckus with some of the female roommates (flirting). Really, really loud talking and laughing. Then he starts making a joke of the whole thing while I am trying to watch (after every single statement no matter what subject he would say something to the tune of "They are both lying! They want to stop me from smoking pot even though it doesn't have any side effects whatsoever!"). Then one of my female roommates takes a look at the tv for about 12 seconds and then says "That ugly guy is going to lose." "Who? Jerry Brown?" "Yeah, he just looks ugly and his voice is terrible, he isn't going to win. I'm going to vote for the woman." Cue second female roommate "But she is so ugly too!". Complete facepalm on my part at this point.

You should be so lucky Lemur, the fact you had this conversation with your kid and the way it turned out makes your child more contemplative then some college aged people I have met. Idk what you did, but you are doing something right.

EDIT 2: Also, if you have a daughter and she doesn't watch Gossip Girl, Glee or Jersey Shore you are raising the kid better then 60% of the girls I have met at college.

Chill out bro.

And I watch Jersey Shore it makes me feel like a superior human being. Though I am a little ashamed for america now that they are in a foreign country.

HoreTore

08-11-2011, 20:32

A few points on language to consider(you're lucky I have to get up at 0600 tomorrow, or I could bore you with this subject all night long....):

First of all, a child has a more limited vocabulary than you do. This means that your son probably has a deeper understanding than what he is capable of expressing. Now, I'm not a language teacher, so my knowledge here isn't excellent, but I believe the progression is that we first learn the general terms, then we flesh out the nuances and details later(ie. constructivism*). This means that his understanding of a subject can be more nuanced than what his language is currently capable of expressing. Vygotsky is the guy who talks about language in learning.

Rommetveit(or rommedahl or something) has a theory called dialogism. He says that the words I use when talking to you, is first interpreted by you, through something he calls a 'medium'. In your medium, you interpret my words to make meaning of them, and the medium is created from your past experience. This means that it is likely to be different from my medium, which in turn leads to you interpreting my words in a different way to what I intended when I spoke.

Your son is likely to have a dramatically different medium than you do. It is thus important that you try to move his medium closer to your medium. A way to do this is to clarify the terms used. For example, if you want him t clean the window, he needs to understand what you mean by two terms; "clean" and "window". Without a common understanding here, you could tell him to clean the windows and he will go sit on a chair, thinking this is what you told him(caricatured example, I know).

So, when talking to your son, try to identify terms as you go along. Talk about them. Not just the terms you use, but the terms he uses as well. You too interpret what he says through a medium, and you will also need to clarify the terms your son uses in order to understand him. If he says 'mercy', ask him what mercy means, etc.

The last thing(for now, at least), is a handy technique called mirroring. When your son gives a statement in his words, rephrase the statement and say it back to him using your own words. This is an easy way of ensuring that you understand him, and also to pick up nuances you might have missed, as he will correct you if what you say is not what he meant.

*constructivism basically means that each new bit of knowledge builds on our previously accumulated knowledge, and that in order to understand something new, we must already know the things that knowledge builds on. For example, to learn multiplicationm we must first know addition.

Vladimir

08-11-2011, 20:32

I doubt he knows how funny that question was. I wondered why he picked those two; the oldest and newest?

I agree. Make help teach him how to think (reason?). He's already got a great foundation.

HoreTore

08-11-2011, 20:37

Edit: or was it Jerome Bruner who had Dialogism? Hmmm.....

a completely inoffensive name

08-11-2011, 20:59

Chill out bro.

And I watch Jersey Shore it makes me feel like a superior human being. Though I am a little ashamed for america now that they are in a foreign country.

Nah man, when you get between me and my gubernatorial debates you get angry ACIN. They may not care about politics, but I do, and I am not going to let them prevent me from learning.

If you have to watch to watch Jersey Shore to feel like a superior human being, you need to hit the gym more often or something. Talk to some girls.

Every girl I have talked to who watches trash tv like Jersey Shore, real housewives etc...they all admit that they watch it to feel better about themselves. What have parents been doing these past 25 years? I see studies of students feeling more self confident but less prepared then ever before and then I look around and everyone seems to need some validation that they are not complete failures at life. I just don't understand people sometimes.

Centurion1

08-11-2011, 21:02

Nah man, when you get between me and my gubernatorial debates you get angry ACIN. They may not care about politics, but I do, and I am not going to let them prevent me from learning.

If you have to watch to watch Jersey Shore to feel like a superior human being, you need to hit the gym more often or something. Talk to some girls.

Every girl I have talked to who watches trash tv like Jersey Shore, real housewives etc...they all admit that they watch it to feel better about themselves. What have parents been doing these past 25 years? I see studies of students feeling more self confident but less prepared then ever before and then I look around and everyone seems to need some validation that they are not complete failures at life. I just don't understand people sometimes.

I get to watch a show and go hey, I am a million times smarter than these people. Plus Schadenfreude my friend schadenfreude.

Human nature dictates that we as humans love to laugh at others misfortune.

As for the gym....... I am pretty sure i'm in better shape than you since yah know..... it dictates my ability to attend University and I do talk to girls :rolleyes:

Lemur

08-11-2011, 21:05

Centurion1

08-11-2011, 21:13

a completely inoffensive name

08-11-2011, 21:17

I get to watch a show and go hey, I am a million times smarter than these people. Plus Schadenfreude my friend schadenfreude.

Human nature dictates that we as humans love to laugh at others misfortune.

I guess. But for me, schadenfreude quickly turns into pity or contempt when those I am observing go from unfortunately incompetent to downright retarded.

As for the gym....... I am pretty sure i'm in better shape than you since yah know..... it dictates my ability to attend University and I do talk to girls :rolleyes:

Yet somehow you still need to stroke your ego by laughing at guidos? Idk man, it's fine if that is what you love to do, but I guess I just roll differently then most people my age judging by the Nielsen ratings.

Also, no doubt you are in better shape than me, just saying I would rather spend another hour at the gym to feel good about myself then watching those back to back episodes of "**** ups in New Jersey"

Centurion1

08-11-2011, 21:24

I guess. But for me, schadenfreude quickly turns into pity or contempt when those I am observing go from unfortunately incompetent to downright retarded.

Yet somehow you still need to stroke your ego by laughing at guidos? Idk man, it's fine if that is what you love to do, but I guess I just roll differently then most people my age judging by the Nielsen ratings.

Also, no doubt you are in better shape than me, just saying I would rather spend another hour at the gym to feel good about myself then watching those back to back episodes of "**** ups in New Jersey"

Obviously my statements wee in jest to an extent. Watching Jersey Shore for me usually means going with some friends to the lounge on thursday nights and studying until something hilariously stupid happens in which I laugh and go back to work. It really hasn't that much to do with ego, the "it makes me feel better about myself" line is just an easy quip. I really watch because I actually find it rather humourous. Perhaps i'm a neanderthal for finding humor in a show like that but eh I don't care.

I think two hours at the gym is enough for me.......

Edit: And yeah at first it's almost pure Schadenfreude and then it sort of turns to cringing embarrassment for these people (I'm one of those people who can't bear to watch someone embarrass themselves even if its just acting, (like Michael in the office). Then it turns to a sick fascination like how are people this stupid and i desperately begin to search for signs that no these individuals aren't actually retarded. But sadly...... they are.

Adrian II

08-11-2011, 21:35

Yeah, good job Lemur. :bow:

I have two of them, aged 13 and 16. I've been travelling through a minefield of such questions since the oldest got, oh, 13 or 14 years old. Always answer them to the best of your knowledge and to the full extent of your knowledge. If you're patient, they will always come back and ask about the things they didn't understand the first time round. Sometimes it'll take a year, but they will.

Also HoreTore's suggestion is excellent. I often initiate a good talk by asking them questions myself, over dinner for instance. Not to test their knowledge so much as to teach them to make up their own mind about things. I play the devil's advocate. You wouldn't believe what a fine Communist of proto-Fascist I make when I want to. They really like these 'debates' and the convivial atmosphere of dinner + the input of any table guests we have makes them even more fun.

AII

a completely inoffensive name

08-11-2011, 21:38

Obviously my statements wee in jest to an extent. Watching Jersey Shore for me usually means going with some friends to the lounge on thursday nights and studying until something hilariously stupid happens in which I laugh and go back to work. It really hasn't that much to do with ego, the "it makes me feel better about myself" line is just an easy quip. I really watch because I actually find it rather humourous. Perhaps i'm a neanderthal for finding humor in a show like that but eh I don't care.
Ahh I see.

Edit: And yeah at first it's almost pure Schadenfreude and then it sort of turns to cringing embarrassment for these people (I'm one of those people who can't bear to watch someone embarrass themselves even if its just acting, (like Michael in the office). Then it turns to a sick fascination like how are people this stupid and i desperately begin to search for signs that no these individuals aren't actually retarded. But sadly...... they are.
From what I have read, Jersey Shore is actually semi scripted. They tell the people what they are going to do for the night (go to a party or what have you), but then they just let them loose and film them interact with people.

a completely inoffensive name

08-11-2011, 21:41

I think that as long as your are talking with your child everyday, then everything will be alright. If they somehow have developed very odd or wrong philosophies about life (maybe the nazis were ultimately good for stopping communism), you can just correct it through more communication. Just keep talking to the kid and sooner or later your common sense will be imparted. But wtf do I know, I am young.

HoreTore

08-11-2011, 21:58

If the measure is "am I better than the people on Jersey Shore" then I guess 99.999% of fathers are successes. I'm trying to do a little better than that, though.

I need to think about this whole Socratic dialogue thing. You're right, of course, that eliciting answers out of him is more artful and a better exercise for his mind, but he's so freakin' young. I feel as though he needs to build up a database before I start wiring in queries. Dunno.

No no no no NO, my silly little Lemur ~;)

Learning through discovery is MORE important the younger the student gets, not less. A 20-year old can learn a subject through transfer of knowledge alone(I'd say not as good as througb discovery, but whatever), but in the younger years it is absolutely crucial to avoid transferring knowledge.

That was a lot harsher than intended, as what you were doing originally was learning through interaction, not the dreaded knowledge transfer. And learning through interaction is, of course, a whole new subject...

Your son has the knowledge of an 8-year old, which probably means "not that much" in this subject. I do understand your fear that he will be unable to connect the dots because he won't have any dots to begin with, so to speak. But he does have a lot of dots. He has spent years interacting with other children, he has travelled around, he can manipulate a wealth of items, he has felt a dozen feelings, etc etc. What you need to figure out is, as my old lecturer would say, "what is the situation now?" What is his related experience, what is his "dot"? Find it, and then challenge him. I'm a little distracted by Star Wars playing in the background now, so I'm not that good at examples right now... My advice would be to start small. Your son might wonder about everything related to nazi's. However, I can't see him learning anything by a 2-hour "Nazi 101"-lecture. Instead, focus on a minor aspect of the nazi's which you can tie to one of his "dots", for example the Fuhrer, which could be tied an influential kid your son knows which sometimes gets other kids to do something they might not want to do... I am quite certain that your son will have a wealth of opinions on that situation, and when you question him on what he felt, what he would do, what is right,why they did what they did, etc, what you are actually doing is forcing him to form an opinion on whether dictatorships are justified or not. Voila!

But a little disclaimer at the end: my focus is on the kids who are a little older than your son is, so I don't claim to be an expert on it, there is a reason the education is divided into age brackets... Kids at different ages learn through diffent ways, though I believe most of what I have written here is transferable.

HoreTore

08-11-2011, 22:05

I think that as long as your are talking with your child everyday, then everything will be alright.

I agree wholeheartidly with this.

Also, a little extra comment: when you answer a question, don't lie. Don't give an answer if you don't know, say that you don't know instead. They'll see right through your lie and lose respect as a consequence. Find the answer and get back to him at a later time, or better yet, time and circumstances permitting, find some way he can figure it out himself.

And do remember Lemur, you only have a year or two before he has knowledge you don't have ~;)

Adrian II

08-11-2011, 22:05

I think that as long as your are talking with your child everyday, then everything will be alright.

Exactly, patience is the father of all good fathering.

AII

P.S. Dang, ninja'd by Norway again :viking:

Louis VI the Fat

08-11-2011, 22:25

And this is how I wind up facing the bathtime question, "Who was worse, Hitler or the Spartans?"Hmmm...I'm pretty sure this very question is the topic of a Monastery thread right now....:idea:

Vladimir

08-12-2011, 13:32

Major Robert Dump

08-12-2011, 17:52

WHY R U EVEN TLKAING TO YOUR KIDS AIN'T YOU GOT A TV???????????

GoreBag

08-12-2011, 23:57

The plum pudding model states that the elections

Simmer down, bro.

Askthepizzaguy

08-13-2011, 11:44

My parents used to just let me watch the Mclaughlin group. I loved it :laugh4:

I liked that show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Yr9XyBdnI&feature=player_detailpage).

rajpoot

08-13-2011, 15:38

IMO the only 'political' idea that must be instilled in a kid is patriotism. About everything else they'll make their own opinion sooner or later.

a completely inoffensive name

08-13-2011, 20:36

Simmer down, bro.

lol wut?

Veho Nex

08-14-2011, 01:13

I cant remember a time were I was ever curious about war. I mean some of my earliest memories are of watching John Wayne and Clint Eastwood movies with my dad. Then by the time we started dealing with insurgents in Iraq and Afghan I didn't why or who we were fighting. Then when I did care, when more than a handful of buddies joined up and less than that came back, that I was old enough to think I formed my own opinions.

classical_hero

08-14-2011, 21:56

Bath conversation last night — Maxwell doesn't like the fact that Usagi Yojimbo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usagi_Yojimbo) kills so many people. "He doesn't have mercy. When was mercy invented?" I explain that in certain societies, at certain times, human life has been devalued.

"Like the Nazis?" Max asks. Yes, I say, although they were far from alone. It's happened many times.

"So what were the worst countries?" he asks. I reel of an easy list: Nazi Germany, feudal Japan, the Aztecs, the Spartans, Soviet Russia ...

And this is how I wind up facing the bathtime question, "Who was worse, Hitler or the Spartans?"

Oh for crying out loud.It is good that he has an inquisitive mind. The good thing to say is that they are both are just as evil as each other. Meaning that killing innocent people is wrong. Or you could go down this route. You kill one person and you are called a murderer, you kill one million and you are a conqueror. Best use that one when he starts playing Total War. :wink:

Major Robert Dump

08-15-2011, 08:11

Lemur: How are you going to explain the Light Bulb Freedom of Choice Act?

a completely inoffensive name

08-15-2011, 08:17

Lemur: How are you going to explain the Light Bulb Freedom of Choice Act?

Are you kidding? That was the spark that started the revolution, among a generation, that rose up, and said that Obama is a ONE. TERM. PRESIDENT!

Papewaio

08-15-2011, 08:33

Ah to illuminate and enlighten a mind with the freedom of choice.

Adrian II

08-15-2011, 14:59