Irish Govt raises four-year austerity target to €15bn

[gaelic cowboy]

Govt raises four-year target to €15bn (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1026/economy.html)


The Government has said it will need to bring in measures totalling €15bn over the next four years to meet a 2014 target for cutting the Budget deficit agreed with the EU.

The Government has said it will need to bring in measures totalling €15bn over the next four years to meet a 2014 target for cutting the Budget deficit agreed with the European Union.
The figure of €15bn is double the one set out in last year's Budget.
The Government must bring the deficit down to 3% of economic output by 2014 to come back in line with EU rules.
In a statement, the Government said the main reasons for the significant increase were lower economic growth prospects at home and abroad and the higher cost of paying interest on our debt.
The Government said the scale of the measures needed for next year and a breakdown for the remaining three years would be announced in the proposed four-year plan, expected to be published next month.
The Government said it realised that the spending cuts and revenue raising measures needed would have an impact on people's living standards, but warned that it was 'neither credible nor realistic' to delay these measures.
'To do so would further undermine confidence in our ability to meet our obligations and responsibilities and delay a return to sustainable growth and full employment in our economy,' the Government said.
Finance Minister Brian Lenihan said a significant frontloading of the €15bn correction will be required in 2011, but precise figures will not be given until the middle of next month.
He acknowledged the Government is concerned about the impact of the multi-billion euro correction, but said it has to happen to put the public finances back on a sustainable footing.
Minister for Tourism and Sport Mary Hanafin has said no department would be ring-fenced from cuts in the upcoming Budget.
She acknowledged a cut in child benefit was possible.
However, she said it was difficult to tax and added: 'There was no way of identifying who the high-earning families who got child benefit were.'
The Government's statement came after the the Cabinet held a day-long session to discuss the Budget and the four-year economic plan.
Ministers met for over three hours at Farmleigh House in the Phoenix Park last night.
The meetings took ahead of this week's Dáil debate on the economy.
The Government has warned that in addition to increased taxes, there will be spending cuts in health, social welfare and education.
Ministers arriving for this morning's session were keen to stress that fairness would be top of their agenda when framing cuts.
However, Government Chief Whip John Curran admitted that the social welfare bill would have to be reduced to meet targets.
Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources Eamon Ryan said there is no denying the difficult choices that have to be made.
Mr Ryan said the Government's job is to get a Budget that works and that gets Ireland out of the economic difficulties that it is in.
Earlier on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Minister for Community, Equality & Gaeltacht Affairs Pat Carey said that nothing can be ruled out.
Mr Carey said no decision has been taken on reducing the Budget deficit to 10% by next year.
He said the Government's focus was to meet the 2014 target of 3% and that every area of expenditure would have to be examined.
Last night's meeting at Farmleigh was delayed to allow Minister Lenihan return from a meeting with EU Commissioner Ollie Rehn.
The subsequent discussions focussed on preparations for the Budget according to a spokesman, but Europe and the markets may be more interested in the four-year plan now due in three weeks' time.
That will chart the pattern of painful cuts across that period and will be the focus of this week's debate in the Dáil.
Final decisions on where the axe will fall in December's Budget will not be taken until tax receipts for this month are to hand.
Opposition briefings
Briefings of the Opposition finance spokespersons by officials in the Department of Finance resumed this afternoon.
Sinn Féin's Arthur Morgan had an hour-long meeting this morning, while Labour's Joan Burton arrived at the department at lunchtime. Fine Gael's Michael Noonan was briefed by Finance Minister Brian Lenihan this afternoon.
This is the third time Opposition spokespeople have met with Department of Finance officials.
Elsewhere, Davy Stockbrokers has lowered its forecasts for the economy this year and next year, warning that Budget measures are likely to affect consumer spending.
It expects gross domestic product to rise by just 0.3% this year, compared with its previous forecast of 0.8% growth.
Davy also expects gross national product, which excludes profits from multinational companies based in Ireland, to fall by 1.5%, compared with its previous forecast of a 1.2% fall

This is gonna hurt the government has decided to frontload the pain which I believe is a good idea but it still wont be nice. The talk is of a 7billion cut in the budget across all areas and various tax rises and stealth charges then the budgets after will be in the 2 to 3 billion mark for cutting.

I suggest implementing in full the McCarthy Report otherwise known as Bord Snip Nua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bord_Snip_Nua) (translation New Snip Board) our public service is far too bloated for such a small country.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Government must bring the deficit down to 3% of economic output by 2014 to come back in line with EU rules.That's so sweet those small countries are actually playing by the rules it is just adorable. :smitten:

[gaelic cowboy]

That's so sweet those small countries are actually playing by the rules it is just adorable. :smitten:

Paddy spends it when he has it and when he doesn't he hits for Hollyhead that is the way we are and always will be Louis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fOqihDIdk

[gaelic cowboy]

On a more serious note there Louis we are too small and far to open an economy to use a stimulus to get us out of the debt and cos were locked in the Euro we cant devalue our way out.

Ireland has an economy heavily dependent on US companies and the UK markets and lastly the EU's open borders therefore we stand on the fence hoping never to fall off and as long as we do we can earn good money being there.

[Tellos Athenaios]

That's so sweet those small countries are actually playing by the rules it is just adorable. :smitten:

Yeah, oh by the way could you send some good food up here while we do it? Because without other countries starting to see the sense of keeping public spending in check, there might not be CAP money for a glorious sun filled summer reading philosophy and poetry to paraphrase you. Not even if the yields might look better.

[gaelic cowboy]

Budget to prioritise spending cuts - Cowen (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1027/economy.html)

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has indicated that spending cuts will take precedence over tax increases in December's Budget.

The Taoiseach has indicated that spending cuts will take precedence over tax increases in December's Budget.
Brian Cowen was speaking in a special economic debate in the Dáil, which has heard strong criticism of his Government from Opposition leaders.
Mr Cowen said the country is entering a crucial period that would shape Ireland's future and if it made the wrong decisions the repercussions would be critical.
He said the gap between what Ireland earns and what it spends was just too wide.
Not every sector of the economy could be protected in the Budget, he warned.
Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny claimed the Taoiseach had not made a single concrete proposal in his speech, insisting the Government now had neither credibility nor a mandate.
Mr Kenny said Fine Gael would not be brow-beaten into accepting all the terms of the proposed four-year plan.
Labour leader Eamon Gilmore said there should be a 50/50 relationship between spending cuts and tax increases, but criticised the approach of the body known as 'An Bord Snip Nua'.
Mr Gilmore said that Labour accepted the social welfare budget would have to be curtailed, but he also said there should be voluntary redundancies in the public service.
Earlier, the Taoiseach confirmed that the decision to seek €15bn in adjustments over the next four years was taken by the Government.
Mr Cowen was responding to Mr Kenny who asked if the target had been imposed by the European Commission.
'Cuts will hit living standards'
The Minister for Finance has admitted that the €15bn adjustment over the next four years will have an impact on the living standards of citizens.
Following yesterday's Cabinet meeting, Mr Lenihan said the measures are needed to put the public finances back on a sustainable footing.
The EU Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn will be in Dublin early next month to discuss the four-year framework plan with the Opposition and the social partners.
It is thought likely the four-year-plan will be formally published shortly after Commissioner Rehn's visit.
Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Minister for Tourism, Sport & Culture Mary Hanafin said it would be premature to talk about changes to public service pensions but that all departments were being examined.
On the same programme, Fine Gael Finance Spokesperson Michael Noonan said his party did not accept the €15bn figure.
Reacting to yesterday's announcement, employers' group IBEC said the target is challenging but necessary to guarantee the country's credit worthiness.
The Congress of Trade Unions said the announcement confirmed its belief that the 2014 target needs to be extended.
Exports increase
Despite the recession, figures from the Irish Exporters' Association have shown a strong increase in the value of goods and services exported from Ireland in the third quarter of this year.
The Association said total exports of €40.4bn were up 9.3% on the same period last year.
The better-than-expected figures during the period were helped by a weaker euro and increased Irish competitiveness

There is some good news at the end of the article


Despite the recession, figures from the Irish Exporters' Association have shown a strong increase in the value of goods and services exported from Ireland in the third quarter of this year.
The Association said total exports of €40.4bn were up 9.3% on the same period last year.
The better-than-expected figures during the period were helped by a weaker euro and increased Irish competitiveness.

Looks like we may just pay off after all :yes:

[gaelic cowboy]

Budget represents 'one step back' - Lenihan (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1027/economy.html)

The Finance Minister has said the upcoming Budget and economic plan represents one step back for the country after it has taken many steps forward.

The Minister for Finance has said the upcoming Budget and economic plan represents one step back for the country after it has taken many steps forward.
Brian Lenihan also said the Irish people will still hold on to most of the economic gains they won in the last decade.
Speaking during the economic debate in the Dáil, the minister said following the unprecedented shock to the economy, the country's finances have been stabilised.
On reducing the deficit by 2014, Minister Lenihan said the problems will worsen if action is delayed.
He also said the measure in achieving that target will be painful, after earlier admitting that the €15bn adjustment over the next four years will have an impact on the living standards of citizens.
Responding, Fine Gael's Finance Spokesman said things are bad and that people are down and depressed. He said there is no growth, no hope and no economic plan.
Deputy Michael Noonan said the 3% deficit target can be achieved by a €9bn adjustment. He said Fine Gael was not buying into the €15bn figure announced by the Government.
He also said the Finance Minister's and the Government's biggest problem is that no one believes him anymore and that credibility has been lost.
He said the dynamic of change must now take place.

In the interests of informing our masters of the universe in Berlin I will post the odd article here on the budgets and cuts etc etc. :book:

[Vladimir]

By "take precedence" does he mean you'll have both spending cuts and tax increases?

[gaelic cowboy]

By "take precedence" does he mean you'll have both spending cuts and tax increases?

The short answer is yes but there will be no change to corporation tax and there really talking about things like water charges, property taxes and other taxes.

[Vladimir]

The short answer is yes but there will be no change to corporation tax and there really talking about things like water charges, property taxes and other taxes.

Thank you. Sounds like tough times are here for a while.

I doubt the U.S. will see solvency until after the baby boomers pass.

[drone]

To help out, I will drink lots of Murphy's Stout. Anything to help our Irish friends out. https://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7673/beerh.gif


I doubt the U.S. will see solvency until after the baby boomers pass. And take Social Security with them :yes:

[gaelic cowboy]

To help out, I will drink lots of Murphy's Stout. Anything to help our Irish friends out. https://img638.imageshack.us/img638/7673/beerh.gif

Good man I will have a word with the head of the plant to make sure the Virginia bound stuff is top notch as a thank you.


Thank you. Sounds like tough times are here for a while.

I doubt the U.S. will see solvency until after the baby boomers pass.


And take Social Security with them :yes:

Pensions were never supposed to be paid out the average life expectancy at the time was less than pension age but by the time they came to pay out life expectancy had increased.


Were lucky in that our age profile is young so no big Social Security nightmare for us yet and I suspect we will never be implement it ever now.

[Strike For The South]

So is this for all of the UK?

[gaelic cowboy]

So is this for all of the UK?

Goodness dont confuse the two of us Strike there :daisy: altogether

[Strike For The South]

Goodness dont confuse the two of us Strike there :daisy: altogether

:).

[gaelic cowboy]

Well the government revealed today that 6 billion euro will be chopped this year then 2.5 to 3.5 billion every year after making up the total 15 billion to make the 3% GDP target in 2014. :sweatdrop:

Still there is nothing to be done but get to work and do with a bit less :sad: even if we do bust the whole country Irish people are not the type to go and smash the place.

Time to get on with earning a wage and stuff those bond traders :knight:

Budget adjustment for 2011 to total €6bn (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1104/politics.html)


The Government has said it plans to take measures totalling €6bn in December's Budget as the first step in its efforts to bring the deficit in line with EU targets by 2014.
This is double the amount Finance Minister Brian Lenihan signalled in last year's Budget.
The Department of Finance this afternoon published an Information Note on the Economic and Budgetary Outlook 2011-2014.
The Minister anticipates that this package of measures will reduced the debt to GDP ratio to between 9.25% and 9.5% next year.
The Government has decided that a consolidation package of €15bn will be required over the next four years, if it is to achieve its 3% deficit target by 2014.
Minister Lenihan said in a statement 'I want to stress again the strength of the Government's resolve to return the country to a sustainable fiscal position.
'I am well aware that such measures will impact on the living standards of everybody. But our spending and revenues must be more closely aligned. This is the only way to ensure the future economic wellbeing of our society.'
'By the end of 2011 we will have implemented over two-thirds of the overall adjustment and we will be on the path toward renewed budgetary sustainability,' he added.
In announcing the adjustment of €6bn, the Department of Finance did not include details of expenditure and revenue measures, however the statement does say 'It is assumed... the majority of the adjustment takes place on the expenditure cuts.'
Fine Gael's Michael Noonan has said he came out of a briefing on the proposed adjustment figures with 'very little confidence' that the Government understands what the country needs.
He said the people wanted some confidence and hope from the Government.
Earlier, Sinn Féin's Arthur Morgan also criticised the Government strategy, saying if cuts could fix the economy it would already be fixed

European Commission welcomes news

The European Commission has said the Government's target of a €6bn cut in the 2011 budget was 'appropriate' and it welcomed the Government's decision to 'keep the finances on a sustainable path.'
In a statement, the EU Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs Olli Rehn said he welcomed the Government's 'continued commitment to reducing the deficit to below 3% by 2014.'
He said it provided an important anchor for financial markets and also underlined the Irish authorities' commitment to putting the public debt on a sustainable downward path in the near future.
The Commissioner, who is due to be in Dublin on Monday and Tuesday, said 'difficult but necessary policy choices are still to be made as regards the measures needed to reach this objective.'
In this context, a 2011 budget involving a consolidation effort of €6 billion, as indicated in the note, would be appropriate, as it would strike a balance between allowing the recovery to strengthen and addressing budgetary challenges in a timely and frontloaded fashion.'
The statement added that during his stay in Dublin, Mr Rehn will also discuss the economic situation and the challenges to the Irish economy and citizens with representatives of Irish political parties, the social partners and the Central Bank

If your some kind of economics junkie here is the PDF provided by the Department of Finance today (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1104/finance.pdf)

[Vladimir]

I think Ireland will be just fine. You've been through much worse.

It's strange that there's such a large cut up front.

[gaelic cowboy]

Basically the government is afraid if we have poor growth next year that the pressure to row back the cuts might derail the plan.

One thing everyone here is pretty adamant about is that things have been waaaaayyyy worse here before. My one fear and I believe it is maybe 30% possible is it may be forced on us to default if the other weaker economies went to the EU/IMF in order to stablise the Euro. At the minute the high bond markets at over 7% mean nothing as were not actually selling bonds till next year so we have one chance to get this right for next year when we require funds again.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Irish people are not the type to go and smash the place.What the Irish do, is more subtle but far more devastating: they leave the island.

History has returned, Ireland is losing its sons and daughters to emigration again. Sad.

[gaelic cowboy]

What the Irish do, is more subtle but far more devastating: they leave the island.

History has returned, Ireland is losing its sons and daughters to emigration again. Sad.

Indeed

Incidently the government figures are based on 40,000 people leavin plus cuts plus extra charges like for property etc.

It's not that Ireland cannot support a higher population, it could support 3 or 4 times the current level in my view. The problem is Bert and his FF mates bought industrial peace both public and private sector at the price of our industrial competitiveness, they let wages inflate to allow the property bubble to take up the slack of the both the foreign and Irish companies after 2002/3.

It can be seen in official figures now that the companies I used work for like Intel and the like started to count for less and less in the economy in early 20002/3, the economy should have contracted to a slightly more normal level of growth but there developer mates needed saving and cos there was an election that year they let rip.

Any pretence of probity was abandoned and he shut people up with cash, Bertie Ahern the man who brought peace to the North (ha yea right) made his own country a desert.(yes i know it's hyperbole)

Our government is in debt because our tax base has collapsed and a toxic financial vampire like Anglo Irish Bank just wont :daisy: die they bailing the :daisy: out and they keep ending up needing more :daisy: cash.

I annoyed now maybe I might take some time to compile a thread for the backroom in case anyone wants to read a horror story and scare the kids in the meantime here is a fairy story instead


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFBfkusf8R0

[Strike For The South]

What the Irish do, is more subtle but far more devastating: they leave the island.

History has returned, Ireland is losing its sons and daughters to emigration again. Sad.

Are they coming here again?

[gaelic cowboy]

Are they coming here again?

USA, Austrailia, New Zealand, UK and Canada plus the rest of the world but it doesn't really count the rest of the world does it.

[Strike For The South]

USA, Austrailia, New Zealand, UK and Canada plus the rest of the world but it doesn't really count the rest of the world does it.

I don't understand why it's so hard to stay put. Does Ireland smell? Is it cramped?

Don't get me wrong I love red hair, plae skin, and the accent as much as the next guy but we moved on to brown immagrants like 50 years ago. Did no one tell you?

[rory_20_uk]

Does Ireland smell? Is it cramped?

All sorted.

~:smoking:

[gaelic cowboy]

I don't understand why it's so hard to stay put. Does Ireland smell? Is it cramped?

Don't get me wrong I love red hair, plae skin, and the accent as much as the next guy but we moved on to brown immagrants like 50 years ago. Did no one tell you?

Oh it's all covered in the secret treaty between the Pope the NWO and Guinness :yes:

[gaelic cowboy]

A PDF of some boring economic data from EUROSTAT that cheers me up a bit about our economy paying back the debt (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/4-12112010-AP/EN/4-12112010-AP-EN.PDF)


Annual comparison
In September 2010 compared with September 2009, production of capital goods grew by 7.5% in the euro area and by 8.7% in the EU27. Intermediate goods increased by 6.8% and 7.5% respectively. Production of energy rose by 1.8% in the euro area and by 0.8% in the EU27. Non-durable consumer goods gained 1.6% and 2.5% respectively. Durable consumer goods fell by 0.2% in the euro area, but increased by 2.2% in the EU27.
Industrial production rose in all Member States for which data are available, except Greece (-7.6%), Portugal (-2.4%) and Spain (-1.4%). The highest increases were registered in Estonia (+31.1%), Latvia (+19.0%), the Czech Republic (+12.2%), Poland (+12.1%) and Ireland (+10.9%).



Irish industry outstrips euro zone (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1112/eurozone-business.html)
Updated: 12:06, Friday, 12 November 2010 RTE News
Ireland has recorded the biggest month-on-month rise for industrial production across the euro zone, official figures have showed.
While industrial production across the euro zone fell by 0.9%, Ireland bucked the trend, surging 7.9% in September compared to August.
Ireland also showed the fifth highest rise year-on-year from September 2009 to September 2010.
The estimates were released by Eurostat, the statistical office of the European Union.

Now if those bond traders would just :daisy: off with the irrational herd behaviour elsewhere things would be grand.

You know things are funny when the old people up and down country supping and cooling over a glass of porter on pension day in pubs all over Ireland are comparing City bond traders to "There the new Tan's I tell ye" while playing a game of 25.

Daily discourse here now revolves around having an intimate knowledge of the interest rate on the second hand bond market in London, every up and down is watched by people who until the year before last probably thought a Bond meant Jimmy Bond from MI6.

[rory_20_uk]

It's not just human traders, it's the armies of AI-bots who buy and sell based on specific criteria, so the smallest change can be amplified so quickly.

~:smoking:

[gaelic cowboy]

It's not just human traders, it's the armies of AI-bots who buy and sell based on specific criteria, so the smallest change can be amplified so quickly.

~:smoking:

And yet those bots failed to save them from crashing the world with all those CDO's an SIV's I think we need a bit of inefficiency in the City style financial industry if you ask me.

Massively efficient highly financialised industry kills itself really the old style ability to take advantage of a difference in price disappears in nanoseconds.

[rory_20_uk]

They can't make a game AI work in a completely walled system, underpinning the capitalist world on then isn't going to be clever either.

~:smoking:

[gaelic cowboy]

They can't make a game AI work in a completely walled system, underpinning the capitalist world on then isn't going to be clever either.

~:smoking:

Excellant point

[Idaho]

Just for the lulz...

George Osborne wants us to be more like Ireland (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article733821.ece)

[Furunculus]

What has caused this Irish miracle, and how can we in Britain emulate it? Three lessons stand out.

First, Ireland’s education system is world-class. On various different rankings it is placed either third or fourth in the world. By contrast, Britain is ranked 33rd and our poor education performance is repeatedly identified by organisations such as the OECD as our greatest weakness. It is not difficult to see why. Staying ahead in a global economy will mean staying at the cutting edge of technological innovation, and using that to boost our productivity. To do that you need the best-educated workforce possible. It is telling that even limited education reform is proving such a struggle for the Prime Minister.

Secondly, the Irish understand that staying ahead in innovation requires world class research and development. Using the best R&D, businesses can grow and make the most of the huge opportunities that exist in the world. That is why it is shocking that the level of R&D spending actually fell in Britain last year. Ireland’s intellectual property laws give incentives for companies to innovate, and the tax system gives huge incentives to turn R&D into the finished article. No tax is paid on revenue from intellectual property where the underlying R&D work was carried out in Ireland. While the Treasury here fiddles with its complex R&D tax credit system, I want to examine whether we could not adopt elements of Ireland's simple and effective approach.

Thirdly, in a world where cheap, rapid communication means that investment decisions are made on a global basis, capital will go wherever investment is most attractive. Ireland’s business tax rates are only 12.5 per cent, while Britain's are becoming among the highest in the developed world.

i can't see that he is wrong.........

[gaelic cowboy]

He was right in what he said it's just no one here copped how much we had moved on from that state around 2005/2006.

Basically in an effort to prevent the economy going from 7-8% growth to a more normal 2-3% a year Bertie and his mates allowed tax incentives and all sorts of chicanery in the banks to inflate a property bubble. Around 2002/2003 the real economy lets call it started to account for less as construction and consumption accounted for more and more.

Once started it was impossible to stop due to low interest rates and hubris on the part of the Irish people once on the carousel you cant get off till it crashes.

Basically were returning to about 2002/2003 levels of growth and consumption here and we will be the better for it.

[Idaho]

i can't see that he is wrong.........

I thought you were all in favour of reducing the number of people in education?

[Furunculus]

I thought you were all in favour of reducing the number of people in education?

Q1. When have I stated that i favour reducing the numbers employed by the education sector?
A1. I haven't. Don't put words in my mouth.

Q2. Since when was numbers employed in education the only/overwhelming metric involved in educational outcome?
A2. It isn't. Don't create foolish arguments.

[rory_20_uk]

Best educated workforce doesn't require everyone to have a degree. It might indicate that the workforce is well educated by 16 or 18, not lumping everyone through a system until they're 21.

It doesn't speak of numbers, it speaks of world class R&D - so that would be the best and brightest supported fully, not sending droves of drones to achieve no R&D.

~:smoking:

[gaelic cowboy]

Best educated workforce doesn't require everyone to have a degree. It might indicate that the workforce is well educated by 16 or 18, not lumping everyone through a system until they're 21.

It doesn't speak of numbers, it speaks of world class R&D - so that would be the best and brightest supported fully, not sending droves of drones to achieve no R&D.

~:smoking:

Osbourne was talking about this really


Ireland’s intellectual property laws give incentives for companies to innovate, and the tax system gives huge incentives to turn R&D into the finished article. No tax is paid on revenue from intellectual property where the underlying R&D work was carried out in Ireland.

[Furunculus]

i'm still waiting for idaho to explain how osborne's three assertions about how we should emulate ireland are incorrect somehow..........?

[Idaho]

i'm still waiting for idaho to explain how osborne's three assertions about how we should emulate ireland are incorrect somehow..........?

None of them will happen here.

[Furunculus]

None of them will happen here.

so when you say:

"Just for the lulz... George Osborne wants us to be more like Ireland"

So what you really mean that it is somehow comical that a government with Osborne in it is incapable of creating; an education system that encourages commercial innovation, a regulatory system for enterprise that encourages R&D, and an business friendly low/simple tax regime?

With the obvious implication that someone else could achieve those ends better, rather than a rejection of those goals as desirable ends in themselves, do I get that right?

[rory_20_uk]

The other main party was incapable of doing so after 13 years and an unmatched (and unfunded) spending bonanza, so no one else appears able to.

Achieving change in the UK would require:

Sorting out the way GCSE and A level papers are set (different exam boards competing for business based on grades, not results)
Realignment of teachers and their powerful unions (improving moral and autonomy, helping and if required weeding out the dreadful teachers, remove blinkered focus on grades)
A reappraisal of what is the point of school in the first place.

As most MPs are going to send their children to good state schools or Private schools anyway, there is no incentive for sorting it out (unless they want increased competition for their own offspring).

~:smoking:

[Beskar]

What makes this situation more amusing, Britain and other nations have to bail out Ireland, while Ireland are passing stupid budget decisions like giving everyone free cheese.

"Free Cheese for Everyone!" "But sir, we have no money?!" "Who cares? We will get free bail-out and free cheese!"

[Furunculus]

What makes this situation more amusing, Britain and other nations have to bail out Ireland, while Ireland are passing stupid budget decisions like giving everyone free cheese.

"Free Cheese for Everyone!" "But sir, we have no money?!" "Who cares? We will get free bail-out and free cheese!"

what makes this sad is that germany caused this situation by botching discussion of haircuts on future defaults and thus sparking speculation on irelands financial position, and then all the euro nations strong-arm ireland into accepting a bail-out they didn't need because that speculation was threatening the other peripheral members.

it took less than a week to make ireland a satrapy of brussels, and if that seems like hyperbole then i recommend you read your gladstone:


"The finance of the country is intimately associated with the liberties of the country. It is a powerful leverage by which English Liberty has been gradually acquired … It lies at the root of English Liberty, and if the House of Commons can by any possibility lose the power of the control of the grants of public money, depend upon it, your very liberty will be worth very little in comparison …That power can never be wrenched out of your hands… That powerful leverage has been what is commonly known as the power of the purse – the control of the House of Commons over public expenditure – your main guarantee for purity – the root of English liberty. No violence, no tyranny, whether of experiments or of such methods as are likely to be made in this country, could ever for a moment have a chance of prevailing against the energies of that great assembly. No, if these powers of the House of Commons come to be encroached upon, it will be by tacit and insidious methods, and therefore I say that public attention should be called to this."

[Louis VI the Fat]

How an innovative economic succes was betrayed by cronyism, corrupt politicians, and short-sightedness and greed of the Irish themselves. The fun Celtic Tiger had changed into a corrupt basket case, were taxation had been replaced by pyramid games.


The Irish boom saw a vast property bubble puffed up by appallingly managed banks with the complicity of idle regulators and political cronies. House prices between 1994 and 2006 rose by around 520%. The relationships between developers, their financiers and the officials who authorised the building spree were usually cosy, often corrupt. Towards the end of the growth years, the country's financial sector descended into full-blown mania. Banks doled out credit indiscriminately and borrowed on international capital markets on a scale that far exceeded the nation's economic output. When the bubble burst, the government stepped in to rescue the banks, but their debts were ultimately bigger than the state's capacity to raise revenue. Ireland started sliding towards insolvency. Hence, the bailout.

Not all of the boom was bogus. The initial expansion was driven by growth in exports. A young, well-educated, cheap labour force attracted investment. So did an aggressively competitive 12.5% corporate tax rate. Ireland positioned itself as a lean, buccaneering start-up economy, challenging Europe's unwieldy giants. Membership of the single currency gave seamless access to export and capital markets.

But there was a shift at the start of the 21st century. As success fed into higher disposable incomes and demand for houses, the returns on property investment soared. The government, in turn, became dependent on tax revenues – and in some cases bribes – from the building trade. Politicians kept consumer demand buoyant with generous public spending, while rewarding developer friends with public works contracts. Ireland's narrow elite ran the economy like a casino and awarded itself free chips. No one, save a few lonely economists, had much incentive to call time on the party. By 2007, around one in five Irish jobs depended in some way on the property market.


Unique to Ireland is that the incompetent politicians not only sank the ship, but also managed to sink the lifeboats afterwards - an aspect the Irish public refused to see as it descended into a mixture between Celtic melancholy and an 'ourselves alone' siege mentality. The masochistic willingness of the Irishman to endure any hardship has been painfully exploited by the Irish politicians, who first stripped the Irishman of everything he had, including his children's future, before simply facing the inevitable.


Ireland's unique misfortune is to have, in Brian Cowen's Fianna Fáil government, leaders who shipwrecked the economy and then capsized the lifeboats. The initial crisis response in 2008 was designed in such a way as effectively to absorb the doomed banking sector into the state, with no safeguards for taxpayers. While fitting as a kind of poetic commentary on what had happened in the boom years, as policy it was insane. Every cent of tax revenue disappeared down a black hole of debt; a ballooning budget deficit demanded brutal austerity measures – public sector cuts, tax rises – which drained any remaining cash out of the economy and prolonged recession.

Ireland is not bankrupt yet. The Treasury is forecast to run out of cash some time next spring. Finance minister Brian Lenihan had hoped to bring the deficit under control and appease nervous investors before then. But the country's eurozone partners are not waiting to see if domestic remedies work. They are forcing Ireland to take medicine prescribed by the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund. The exact shape of the package is not yet known, but it is likely to include tens of billions of euros in bailout money in exchange for more tax rises and spending cuts.


Other countries have seen booms burst, property bubbles implode, financial collapse. From Japan end 1980s to the LAtin American ans South East Asian collapses a decade ago. Non had an Euro. The Euro angle is vastly overdone by triumphant British nationalists.


Eurosceptics in Britain have been quick to weave a tale of Irish sovereignty surrendered to Brussels bureaucrats. Thus is the folly of the single currency proved, they argue.But on the question of sovereignty, the European angle is overplayed. It is debt that has deprived Dublin of budget autonomy. Countries that suffered financial crises ended up taking money and policy dictation from the IMF (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/imf) long before the euro was born. At least today, Ireland retains its political rights in EU institutions. Arguably, the fact that this is a pan-European rescue gives Dublin more clout than it would have in a lonely one-on-one fight with the bond market.

Besides, without access to ECB emergency finance, Irish banks would have collapsed last year, possibly taking the Irish state down with them. The ensuing panic would have infected the UK, regardless of its euro-aloofness.
The threat to Ireland now does not come from visiting European officials.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/21/ireland-bailout-economy-imf-euro

[gaelic cowboy]

Here is a PDF of the actual government plan to reduce government spending and so aid recovery (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1124/plan.pdf)

It all pretty standard and what I generally expected to happen.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Why are the Irish made to suffer for the greed of bankers, foreign investors, and the cronyism of their politicians? It feels like a return to 1848. Everybody somehow makes a profit out of the Emerald Isle, including the local overlords, yet, the Irish themselves are hurting, are told there will be no limit to their plight, but that it is somehow for the best if they just sit quiet and endure it.


Are the bailouts wrong? Should we (have bitten) bite the bullet? Market confidence is not restored, speculators are rewarded, and the bill is for the Irish and European taxpayer:



Most people know Swift as the author of “Gulliver’s Travels.” But recent events have me thinking of his 1729 essay “A Modest Proposal,” in which he observed the dire poverty of the Irish, and offered a solution: sell the children as food. “I grant this food will be somewhat dear,” he admitted, but this would make it “very proper for landlords, who, as they have already devoured most of the parents, seem to have the best title to the children.”

O.K., these days it’s not the landlords, it’s the bankers — and they’re just impoverishing the populace, not eating it. But only a satirist — and one with a very savage pen — could do justice to what’s happening to Ireland now.
Paul Krugman: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/opinion/26krugman.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

[gaelic cowboy]

The problem my dear fellow is the banks have pulled a fast one and the politicians have fell for it by falling for a theory quite simmilar to the Domino Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_theory) except for debt.

Our politicians were too stupid to see our bankers codded them and sank the country into the IMF but the EU must take blame for letting this get to the point were Portugal/Spain are next.

We should all of us have burned both Senior bonholders and the Subodinated debt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_(finance)) as bad investments just like if you and me opened a coffee shop Louis and ending up paying back them back say 20 cent in the euro for a liquidation firesale.

If we were not trying to extract value from these loans and trying to pay back all bonds like the ECB wants us too we would still have a bit of austerity on Ireland but were 2/3 yrs into it now we would probably be comng out now fact.


These debts were incurred, not to pay for public programs, but by private wheeler-dealers seeking nothing but their own profit. Yet ordinary Irish citizens are now bearing the burden of those debts.

Or to be more accurate, they’re bearing a burden much larger than the debt — because those spending cuts have caused a severe recession so that in addition to taking on the banks’ debts, the Irish are suffering from plunging incomes and high unemployment.

But there is no alternative, say the serious people: all of this is necessary to restore confidence.

As long as the ECB acts like it can ignore this reality and only looks to run the NICE bits of central banking and not the bad this will continue.

Your cry should be save the EU bin the bonds and we will see about the Euro later.

[Vladimir]

Why are the Irish made to suffer for the greed of bankers, foreign investors, and the cronyism of their politicians? It feels like a return to 1848. Everybody somehow makes a profit out of the Emerald Isle, including the local overlords, yet, the Irish themselves are hurting, are told there will be no limit to their plight, but that it is somehow for the best if they just sit quiet and endure it.


Are the bailouts wrong? Should we (have bitten) bite the bullet? Market confidence is not restored, speculators are rewarded, and the bill is for the Irish and European taxpayer:

Paul Krugman: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/opinion/26krugman.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

I believe the Irish are made to suffer because of greedy Irishmen! You can't keep passing it of to a segment of the population you don't like. Europe has tried to pass off their own greed to "Jewish" bankers for hundreds of years.

This isn't much different in America. The American people are suffering from greedy bankers, politicians, executives, service sector employees...who thought the gravy train of low interest rates would last forever. While some of them are fools the rest knew what "adjustable rate" meant when they secured the loan.

[gaelic cowboy]

I believe the Irish are made to suffer because of greedy Irishmen! You can't keep passing it of to a segment of the population you don't like. Europe has tried to pass off their own greed to "Jewish" bankers for hundreds of years.


I'm not passing it off thats for sure I have pointed out the solution, I am merely waiting for everyone else to arrive to where I am.

Still waiting 2 yrs in though hurry up.

[Vladimir]

I'm not passing it off thats for sure I have pointed out the solution, I am merely waiting for everyone else to arrive to where I am.

Still waiting 2 yrs in though hurry up.

That was more in response to Louis. I'm assuming he's in character but I may be in one of those moods. :shrug:

[Fragony]

yay euro is at 1.32 dollar. Rasoforus, Ronin, Banquo, I want to have a word with YOU how could you do this to me.

Any Spanish and Italians here? And for the hispanics your essays don't impress me.

[gaelic cowboy]

That was more in response to Louis. I'm assuming he's in character but I may be in one of those moods. :shrug:

I know you were but the problem is when I'm posting and talking about Bankersters and Bondholders etc it can seem a bit like I am trying to pass the buck (as if we had any left)

I was annoyed at Angela Merkel for saying what I have been saying all along which may seem strange, but basically the problem is not what she said or when it was the fact it merely eneded up being the death blow for our banks. ( the statements were meant to give indication of sorting the crisis they merely made it worse)

The major problem is one of an inability on the part of many of the major actors in this crisis of private capital to see that they should just reorganise the banks. If the banks were taken to task and we merely stiffed the lenders who stupidly gave money to our greedy banks to lend to idiots here we might already be out of recession.

Our government has already taken 14 billion out of public expenditure and still there accused by the "Markets" of not doing enough it is a boggle indeed. Take the repudiation on the bondmarkets for a few months who cares we had/have the money, we cut a few benefits and costs and give bondholder 10-20% of there value telling em to :daisy: off. Why should they get off with a free lunch they were just as foolish as the people who bought expensive houses here, the reason is as I said the ECB is not acting like a real central bank instead it is acting like a political institution.

some points that must be answered

1 Why is the ECB not trying to reorganise the banks debt and to extend credit to Irish and other PIIGS banks in order to do so.

2 Why must the solution for each one of the PIIGS be the same in the end yet the problems in each are different.

3 Why is the solution even more debt.

4 Why is the IMF at loggerheads with the EU over sorting the bank debt in Ireland.

I imagine all the answers eventually come back to the same problem the Eurozone political class as a whole has trapped themselves in an ideological cul de sac.

[gaelic cowboy]

yay euro is at 1.32 dollar. Rasoforus, Ronin, Banquo, I want to have a word with YOU how could you do this to me.

Any Spanish and Italians here? And for the hispanics your essays don't impress me.

It's at 1.32 because no one wants to admit in the EU that Spain cannot be bailed out Fragony. The EU is trying to prevent it by bailouts instead of grasping a big stinging nettle.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I believe the Irish are made to suffer because of greedy Irishmen! You can't keep passing it of to a segment of the population you don't like. Europe has tried to pass off their own greed to "Jewish" bankers for hundreds of years.

This isn't much different in America. The American people are suffering from greedy bankers, politicians, executives, service sector employees...who thought the gravy train of low interest rates would last forever. While some of them are fools the rest knew what "adjustable rate" meant when they secured the loan.It certainly isn't the ordinary Irishman who's making a killer profit here. The Irishman is...the Irishman of Europe, a beast of burden, there to be exploited by London or Washington in the 19th, and the city and Wall Street in the 21st century.

If it were up to me we would indeed kill the moneylenders and the usurers. Or, failing that, do something much more old-fashioned and too savage for today's world: make them suffer actual financial loss.
We're suddenly stuck in some bizarre world of 'private profit, socialised risk'. Forty years of turning Ireland from a poverty stricken backwater to an economic tiger, and it's all been for nought. The Irishman is reduced to destitution again, leaving the island again, while billionaires feast on its carcass and demand we bring them more blood.

As in the 18th century, it is only partly satire to suggest the Irish start offering their children next.

[gaelic cowboy]

It certainly isn't the ordinary Irishman who's making a killer profit here. The Irishman is...the Irishman of Europe, a beast of burden, there to be exploited by London or Washington in the 19th, and the city and Wall Street in the 21st century.

If it were up to me we would indeed kill the moneylenders and the usurers. Or, failing that, do something much more old-fashioned and too savage for today's world: make them suffer actual financial loss.
We're suddenly stuck in some bizarre world of 'private profit, socialised risk'. Forty years of turning Ireland from a poverty stricken backwater to an economic tiger, and it's all been for nought. The Irishman is reduced to destitution again, leaving the island again, while billionaires feast on its carcass and demand we bring them more blood.

As in the 18th century, it is only partly satire to suggest the Irish start offering their children next.

There is one interesting thing to note which links the 1840s and today we have again a political class that is ready to ignore the real solution to this/these problems.

In the 1840s any mention of interference of the market in order to actually feed people was taken as encouraging fecklessness on the part of the people. What a laugh those people were so poor they ate at least 20-25 pounds of potatoes a day they had no money for markets. The government of the day was convinced laissez-faire was the solution to a food crisis it was madness.

Today what we have is a political class who think rewarding bondholders in order not to cause a ripple in the markets can stop an attack on Spain. It will fail and fail utterly, markets may be cruel but they are correct the Euro must revalue the debt so some people will lose on there investment in banks.

The longer we ignore the reality the more we encourage the ceaseless attacks.

In Ireland the ERM disaster caused a devaluation of our currency we needed to track Britain instead we were tracking Germany that was wrong. The political class tried to ignore the reality of the situation for ages mainly from sheer embarrassment at not being seen as a serious country or some other such rubbish.
The people rejected the governments siren song and went in droves to the North to shop in the cheaper stores compared to here, eventually they saw sense and devalued and laid the foundations for the future prosperity.(before the bust)

[gaelic cowboy]

EU/IMF interest rate likely to be 6.7% (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1126/economy_bailout.html)

if that is the rate of interest on the EU portion of the bailout then were as well of just say :daisy: it and letting the markets and bondholders have there way with Ireland.

[Ronin]

some points that must be answered


another one is why the ECB is lending money to the banks at 1% interest, that then turn around and lend to the countries at 6, 7% etc.
why can´t the ECB just lend to the countries directly????

[Banquo's Ghost]

yay euro is at 1.32 dollar. Rasoforus, Ronin, Banquo, I want to have a word with YOU how could you do this to me.

Don't blame me. I never dabbled in the property market.

I make all my money by following the fine example of our French overlords and bleeding the Netherlands dry for agricultural subsidies. :bounce:

[Furunculus]

i am sat on the train returning from five days of work in nuremburg, so i just want to take the opportunity to thank our economically incompetent brusselsels overlords for driving their currency into the ground just in time for my xmas shopping.

p.s. taking an ice train along the rhine is awesome, millions of castles!

[Louis VI the Fat]

EU/IMF interest rate likely to be 6.7% (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1126/economy_bailout.html)

if that is the rate of interest on the EU portion of the bailout then were as well of just say :daisy: it and letting the markets and bondholders have there way with Ireland.My answer is the one the Irish tax haven barons have given to Europe all these years: We are just following market demand to create a competitive business environment. ~;p




Back to planting potatoes for the foreign big boys, paddy. Off you go.:whip:



Edit: And to think you 'handed over' your world cup ticket to us too!

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Irish insolence of wanting to share the table with the grown ups has a price. Like children, the Irish need punishment to remind them of the order of things. Your priest will explain it to you, the beauty and clarity of servitude. Explain there's a reward in the next life if you endure your slavery in this one with docility. Explain to you why it is right your children sweat, yet live in want, while those of others feast on the products of your hands and the fruits of your land. :book:


Look at it from the bright side: the restoration of Irish destitution will no doubt result in a renaissance of the best of Ireland: melancholy songs, theatre, literature lamenting the plight of the Irish. :ireland:


It is all for the best.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The Irish insolence of wanting to share the table with the grown ups has a price. Like children, the Irish need punishment to remind them of the order of things. Your priest will explain it to you, the beauty and clarity of servitude. Explain there's a reward in the next life if you endure your slavery in this one with docility. Explain to you why it is right your children sweat, yet live in want, while those of others feast on the products of your hands and the fruits of your land. :book:

I'm aware that your posts on this subject are deliberately provocative, but the tone is increasingly unpleasant, Louis. It's all redolent of the same sort of schadenfreude that seems to be resurfacing in the British media.

Nonetheless, you are not alone. If there's one thing we do well, it's Catholic guilt (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/what-did-we-do-to-deserve-this-2439239.html).


Even if all the economic indicators didn't point to this sad state of affairs, our recent sporting record might have suggested it. But it was the weather that really sealed the deal for us. When's the last time we got thunder and lightning mixed with sub-zero temperatures and hail? Presumably a plague of locusts will be next. We got too cocky and God is putting us back in our box.

You see, for years, Irish people were happy to be the clowns of the world. We were like the freckly ginger kid in the corner of the class who was great fun but who never really got to hang with the blonde, sleek, superficial, popular kids. And then, like in Mean Girls, we were led to believe we could make the jump into the popular crowd. We weren't just good at "the craic" (getting drunk), suddenly we were into finance and property. So we dyed our hair blonde, we dyed ourselves orange and we joined in.

That article finishes with the one thing that is on everyone's lips here. Default. To stretch the author's metaphor, a "Carrie" moment beckons. If larger nations wish to crush us and humiliate us, fine. I see the ghostly, sneering figure of vengeance over Lisbon high on your tower. But have a care that your castle of pride is not founded on a mine with Irish explosives primed therein.

It's about time the greedy bondholders of the very financial markets that caused the crash, and now that hunt the weak for profit (weakened by giving their very children for the markets to eat, as you so colourfully suggested) find that we bite back. Time, I think, to shock the system back.

Default and be damned. What then your precious euro? What then the snide triumphalism of the markets and the powerful economies?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm aware that your posts on this subject are deliberately provocative, but the tone is increasingly unpleasant, Louis. It's all redolent of the same sort of schadenfreude that seems to be resurfacing in the British media.Hmm...maybe I should've borne the critical situation in mind more. Now is not a tme for provocations or biting satire. At any rate, it's all meant not for the common Irishman, but for those who would mistreat the Irish, who'd have it reduced to destitution again, who give preference to a spreadsheet or profit or political gain over the Irish pensioner.

I thought it would be clear that my allegiance is with the working Irish, and my anger directed at corrupt politicians, financial markets, the ECB, and everybody else who puts his own interest above the well-being of an entire country. If it were up to me, the Irish would rise up and blow up the entire system, including the whole of Brussels and the Euro.

[Furunculus]

Default and be damned. What then your precious euro? What then the snide triumphalism of the markets and the powerful economies?

this is sadly a very important moment.

it should have come in 2009 when the Karlsruhe in Germany ruled that further transfers of power cannot continue without a democratic mandate, until then the Bundestag was the supreme authority.

it could have come in 2010 when the Conservatives announced there intention to issue a referendum lock on major transfers, parliamentary debate on minor transfers, and a declaration of parliamentary sovereignty.

it will probably come in 2011 when the rest of europe stands on the brink of a spanish collapse, and then looks back to the examples of how greece, ireland and portugal were made satrapies of brussels, and realise that it could be their country next.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Financial Times' review of 'Ship of Fools'. The book that described how the once fun Celtic Tiger was, not unlike the real tiger, brought to the brink of collapse. A 'salutary reminder that cronyism, light regulation and loose ethics can be a deadly combination':
Ship of Fools: How Stupidity and Corruption Sank The Celtic Tiger


By Fintan O’Toole

Faber and Faber, £12.99

Barely two years ago, Ireland was being hailed as the model of free-market globalisation, an example to small countries everywhere. Alex Salmond, first minister of Scotland’s devolved government, pledged to “create a Celtic Lion to rival the Celtic Tiger across the Irish Sea”.

Now, in Fintan O’Toole’s words, the tiger has become a “bedraggled alley cat”. Ravaged by a property crash, it faces the deepest downturn of any advanced country. Its budget this week will be the harshest in its 88-year history as the government seeks €4bn ($6bn) in spending cuts and tax increases to close a deficit set to reach 12 per cent next year.


O’Toole, Irish Times columnist and doyen of leftwing Dublin intellectuals, has produced a coruscating polemic against the cronyism and corruption that in his view helped to fuel the boom.
His invective accords few redeeming features to the Celtic Tiger model, with its low taxes and light-touch regulation. He has some justification to be angry, though, having warned that the boom was unsustainable while others were complacent.

Ireland was hardly alone in succumbing to property mania: the US, UK and Spain suffered too. O’Toole is strongest in identifying the cultural factors that let it reach such extremes in his country, including a historical addiction to owning land and property, and a political system based on cliques and personal patronage.

Ireland, having missed out on the Industrial Revolution, was trying to go from pre-modern to post-modern without ever fully creating the structures and habits of a modern democracy.
The fall was so painful because Ireland’s rise in the late 1990s had been so startling. Gross domestic product rose from two-thirds of the European Union average to 111 per cent. Inward investment soared as Ireland became the world’s largest exporter of computer software. Emigration gave way to large-scale immigration. “In its rise and fall, Ireland made Icarus look boringly stable,” writes O’Toole.


From 1995 to 2001, Ireland was catching up after decades of economic underperformance – a time of hope for a country long steeped in failure. O’Toole’s complaint is that the chance to invest in public services and infrastructure was missed, and that, as productivity gains ran out, politicians embarked on a reckless second phase by stoking the boom with an array of property-based tax breaks.

His main culprit is the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat government led from 1997 to 2008 by Bertie Ahern. Mr Ahern’s mentor was Charles Haughey, the former prime minister who not only amassed €45m in office – 171 times his total salary payments as a politician – but even stole €250,000 from a fund set up to pay for a liver transplant for one of his closest friends.

A culture of cronyism emerged, O’Toole argues, in which it was not seen as wrong for politicians to take private donations from property developers and in which tax evasion, bribery and giving false evidence under oath went unpunished. Lax ethics permeated the establishment. The chairman of Anglo Irish Bank (http://markets.ft.com/tearsheets/performance.asp?s=us:AGIBY) resigned when it transpired he had received €84m of loans from his bank, concealed in a manner that was, astonishingly, not illegal. Yet the public put up with all this. O’Toole attributes this in part to “localism and clientelism”, whereby politicians are elected not to implement policies but to provide a personal service to individuals and constituencies. It is also true that, after myriad revelations and inquiries brought no action, people grew cynical about politics.

O’Toole argues that the property developers and hangers-on amounted to a new aristocracy, invulnerable because they were Catholics whose nationalist forebears had challenged the land rights of the old Protestant Ascendancy, exploiting the public’s belief that there were no class distinctions in Ireland. Business ethics, especially in banking, became lax, he suggests, because Ireland’s religious culture saw sin as something to do with sex rather than money.

Somewhat idealistically, O’Toole advocates a Second Republic based on probity, institutional reform and realignment of a system currently based on two populist centre-right parties. That seems unlikely. While the population of Iceland overturned their establishment in anger at the ruination of their country, the Irish have reacted more fatalistically.
O’Toole no doubt underplays the good sides to the Celtic Tiger – the features that attracted so many US investors. More of value may survive than he allows. But his highly readable book is a salutary reminder that cronyism, light regulation and loose ethics can be a deadly combination.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/87d54e78-e2a5-11de-b028-00144feab49a,dwp_uuid=766f3dea-c712-11df-a806-00144feab49a.html#axzz16XgPHGdp



What next, then, for Ireland?

The same author calls for a new republic


Enough is Enough: How to Build a New Republic by Fintan O’Toole – review (http://www.ethiopianreview.com/index/201001/?p=13101)

Sean O'Hagan (http://www.ethiopianreview.com/index/201001/?author=255) | November 21st, 2010 at 12:02 am |


http://hits.guardian.co.uk/b/ss/guardiangu-feeds/1/H.22.1/52292?ns=guardian&pageName=Enough+is+Enough:+How+to+Build+a+New+Republic+by+Fintan+O%27Toole+*+review:Article:1480496&ch=Books&c3=Obs&c4=Business+and+finance+%28Books+genre%29,Politics+%28Books+genre%29,Ireland+%28News%29,Ireland+bail out,Culture,Books,World+news,Business&c5=Unclassified,Not+commercially+useful,Business+Markets&c6=Sean+O%27Hagan&c7=10-Nov-21&c8=1480496&c9=Article&c10=Review&c11=Books&c13=&c25=&c30=content&h2=GU/Books/Business+and+finance
Fintan O'Toole's manifesto for a new Ireland is radical and rooted in decency

In Ship of Fools, published this time last year, the Irish Times journalist Fintan O'Toole laid bare the causes of – and castigated those responsible for – Ireland's ongoing economic implosion. The book described in often mind-boggling detail the financial ineptitude, endemic corruption and barefaced greed that led to the collapse of the so-called Celtic Tiger economy.

Now, as Ireland grapples with the dreadful aftermath of that implosion, O'Toole has written a different kind of polemic, not just a prescription for recovery, but a kind of manifesto for a new republic based on the founding ideals of decency, fairness and the pursuit of the common good. In his introduction, he notes: "The twin towers of southern Irish identity – Catholicism and nationalism – were already teetering before the great boom began in 1995." The long sectarian war in Northern Ireland, together with the Republic's Europeanisation throughout the 1990s, seemed to have put paid to the dream of a united Ireland. At the same time, the storm of scandals that has rocked the Catholic church speeded the process of secularisation that began in the 1960s. "The Celtic Tiger wasn't just an economic ideology," O'Toole writes. "It was also a substitute identity. It was a new way of being that arrived just at the point when Catholicism and nationalism were not working any more."

At its basest, O'Toole notes, this hastily constructed and ill-defined identity was recklessly consumer-driven and manifested itself "in an arrogance towards the rest of the world" and "a wilful refusal of all ties of history and tradition". At its best, it denoted a break with the old, insular, parochial Ireland where the parish priest was as powerful – and as unaccountable – as the local politician. It also spoke, albeit too loudly and brashly, of a new spirit of European Irishness defined by "optimism, confidence, a new openness and ease, an absence of fear".

All of that confidence has ebbed away. Ireland today seems a vulnerable and anxious place, its uncertain future tied to borrowing and bailouts, the sheer size of which set the head reeling. Suddenly, too, the spectre of the old, pre-Celtic Tiger Ireland looms large, a place defined not by hope and optimism but by high unemployment, poverty and mass emigration. Blessedly, Fintan O'Toole is not a doom-monger but a voice of restraint, reason and rigorous analysis. In a very real way, he is writing against the rising sense of anxiety and fear in Ireland today. If Ship of Fools was an often angry obituary for the excesses and short-sightedness of the Celtic Tiger years, it was also underscored by a tentative optimism for a future in which Ireland might learn the hard way from its recent mistakes and excesses. Enough is Enough lays out the ways in which that might happen, the chief one being, as the book's subtitle suggests, a reinvestment in the notion of what it means to be a republic.

In many ways, Ireland's recent political – and, indeed, business – culture echoed its older religious one, insofar as what O'Toole calls its "self-serving elites" looked out for themselves while remaining blithely unaware of – or, in many cases, actively opposed to – any notion of the greater good. O'Toole has already written in some depth about the croneyism and clientelism that bedevils Irish politics: the widespread and almost taken-for-granted granting of favours to family members, friends, associates and local supporters. Here, he returns to that theme to make a much bigger point.

"The culture of massive salaries", he writes, "was imported from the private sector into the public sector, in the process virtually destroying an idea that is essential to a republic – the notion that people in positions of leadership have the privilege of serving the public."

This betrayal of a defining political ideal is the core theme of O'Toole's book. He begins by demolishing the "five myths" of the Irish Republic, the two most topical being the "myth of representation" and the "myth of wealth". He then lays out what he calls the "five decencies" that might lead its citizens into a safer, fairer, less market-driven future: security, health, education, equality and citizenship. Like the late Tony Judt's book, Ill Fares the Land, Enough is Enough often seems to be saying that a fairer society can only be rebuilt on our collective rediscovery of progressive social democratic values. And, as with Judt's manifesto for a fairer Britain, O'Toole's reclaiming of the ideal of the republic seems at times as radical as a latterday socialist – or indeed communist – manifesto.

Its radicalism, though, only appears as such because we have drifted so far away from the belief in what O Toole calls "our collective capacity to create a country to be proud of". To this end, he calls for a return to "the dignity of citizenship" and an end to "the pursuit of private gain" at the expense of the public good. Only time will tell if the disgust and anger currently directed at those self-serving elites can transform itself into the kind of organised political action needed to reform Irish politics and society. As it stands, the new republic that O'Toole so brilliantly outlines seems more like an improbable, if not impossible, dream. But, then again, so did the old one.
The thoughts in the last paragraph in particular strike a chord in me. Suddenly, lately, I am made to feel like a radical communist. thought of as a socialist radical. When from my point of view, all I am doing is trying to salvage and protect what's left of Republican values in the current onslaught. What has been under siege to me is indeed "our collective capacity to create a country to be proud of".

With the author, I call 'for a return to "the dignity of citizenship" and an end to "the pursuit of private gain" at the expense of the public good.
Only time will tell if the disgust and anger currently directed at those self-serving elites can transform itself into the kind of organised political action needed to reform Irish politics and society.'

[gaelic cowboy]

Default and be damned. What then your precious euro? What then the snide triumphalism of the markets and the powerful economies?

On Sep 15 2008 Lehmans collapsed giving us a new saying "Credit Crunch" the worlds banking went into contraction as everyone hoarded there own capital and called in payment this basically finished Anglo Irish Bank and fatally weakened Allied Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland.

(this hoarding was fatal to them as they were basically bust due to our bubble)

Interestingly it is now more and more obvious that the infamous "Bank Guarantee" which forced my country into the IMF/EU bailout was itself a product of an ECB fear of a Lehmans style shock to European banking, Trichet impressed upon Lenihan that NO bank must fail as the system could not take the hit in Europe because so many other European banks were owed money by Irish banks.

Our completely clueless FF politicians were caught completely off guard as the heads of our three main banks arrived to government buildings like mafia dons in the chauffeur limos with a nuclear weapon "we will finish your economy tomorrow if were not saved tonight" the rest as they say is history.

Irish politicians probably never thought the ECB would stop funding the banks because they doing what they were asked, but once the EFSF was setup the ECB was likely interested in using it to get off the hook of our sick banks thereby forcing the risk on someone else.

I say default and be dammed what the hell are we doing this stupid bailout for when it is not going to work, market types have not reduced the rate on Irish bonds they are apparently already writing in a 20-30% cut as of now for When we default.

FF/ECB followed a policy which could only work short term cos the banks basically lied about there solvency, they pretended it was a mere liquidity crisis and not a solvency one. They whole thing was a bluff and it almost worked but for Angela Merkel and her haircut to bondholders comments(the ECB was very annoyed about it cos they probably knew the likely reaction it would cause for our banks.)

The Irish banks bond rate soared even though the governments did not need any money however faced with having our banks shut down the talks began on the bailout due to ECB refusal to underwrite anymore loans to them.

The decision to bailout Ireland is again another sign of foolish policy to "Leave no Bondholder Behind" and mark my words it will end in more tears. We have not fed the lion even half enough not by a long shot. Quite why were all being forced to bail banks out or to cut money in order to pay back for bailing them out when there already pricing in the default amazes me.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I say default and be dammed Do it. Why should the Irish taxpayer be the one left with the bill when the music stops?

Pretty bloody cheeky really, taking everyones money and giving it to the richest most powerful people in the world, and then telling the victims of this robbery that they have to eat massive spending cuts - just to bail out the failed businesses and speculations of the rich.



Why should you stand for this bollox? Get some clubs and smash up Dublin, then the City, then Brussels.

[gaelic cowboy]

Why should you stand for this bollox? Get some clubs and smash up Dublin, then the City, then Brussels.

Maigh Eo Abu tonight I march on Dublin

[Furunculus]

Do it. Why should the Irish taxpayer be the one left with the bill when the music stops?

Pretty bloody cheeky really, taking everyones money and giving it to the richest most powerful people in the world, and then telling the victims of this robbery that they have to eat massive spending cuts - just to bail out the failed businesses and speculations of the rich.



Why should you stand for this bollox? Get some clubs and smash up Dublin, then the City, then Brussels.

how's that common european consent coming along?

[gaelic cowboy]

:balloon2: :balloon2: Anglo brand to disappear, deposits to move
(http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1129/economy.html):balloon2: :balloon2:


RTE News: Anglo brand to disappear, deposits to move.

The Central Bank has said that the brand name of Anglo Irish Bank is expected to disappear in the coming weeks and its deposits will be moved to a separate entity.
However, its loan book will be wound down over a number of years.
In a statement, the bank said Anglo's depositors will remain fully covered by the deposit guarantee.
The announcement comes a day after the Government and the EU announced that funding of €85bn would be provided for Ireland.
Speaking on RTÉ's News At One, Governor of the Central Bank Professor Patrick Honohan said he discussed the winding down of Anglo with one of the international negotiators during the recent talks.
Professor Honohan said he believed Anglo Irish Bank will be wound down early next year as part of the EU/IMF rescue for Ireland.
He added that the memorandum of understanding relating to the rescue deal will give future governments flexibility and autonomy in dealing with their financial decisions.
The document would include much detail on what will have to be done over the next year, but much less detail for the following years, he said.
Mr Honohan said the rescue package will make it possible to achieve a rapid downsizing of Irish banks and put the banking system on a secure footing.
The package includes €10bn to be immediately poured into banks to recapitalise them.
A €25bn contingency fund is also available if they require more money in the future.
Bank of Ireland has said that it will seek to raise almost €2.2bn of capital by February.


At least one of those :daisy: will never see the light of day again :balloon2: one down two to go.

[Furunculus]

interesting article on the ireland situation:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarner/100008946/dont-feel-too-sorry-for-the-irish/

how it's not so bad, and hitting business rather than consumer wouldn't have worked.

[gaelic cowboy]

There is a case to be made for two Irelands

Ireland A has real export potential blah blah etc happily for it there is a bout of deflation on which is driving costs down etc.

Ireland B is in serious negative equity and as a result has strangled domestic demand this is the real problem.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ireland's property obsession explained for foreigners:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJioWss7HeI


Language warning! Some, erm....'vernacular' Irish.

Also, did they catch Banquo's Ghost on film (1:00 - 1:30)?.

[gaelic cowboy]

the guy at 50 to 57 was a developer

'No more cars in the park, just pay me €65m,' O'Gara (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-more-cars-in-the-park-just-pay-me-65m-ogara-134599.html)

McSavage let him spout a load of spoof to show someone engaged in Gombeenism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombeen_man) the case was famous here on telly an everything

[Furunculus]

lol Louis, didn't think we'd track BG down s9o quickly!

[Banquo's Ghost]

Also, did they catch Banquo's Ghost on film (1:00 - 1:30)?.


lol Louis, didn't think we'd track BG down s9o quickly!

Harrumph. I'll have you know that I hunt peasants the sporting way, with horse and hounds. The fellow depicted is clearly arriviste.

I'm also disappointed that you think any gentleman would take two shots to down a bog-hopper.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Stricken Allied Irish Banks is preparing to hand out €40m (£34m) of bonuses next week – despite being on the brink of receiving another emergency bailout from the Irish government.

As many as 2,400 bankers in its Dublin capital markets division are to receive the payments on 17 December under agreements struck with the bank in 2008.

The bank, 19% owned by Ireland (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/ireland)'s taxpayers but expected to reach 95% state-ownership, had originally been blocked from making the payments under one of the government's bailout programmes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/08/allied-irish-banks-pay-bonuses-despite-bailout
The cheek.


What are those Republican paramilitary groups trying to blow up things in Britain for when there are still banks left standing in the Irish (banana) Republic?

[Beskar]

The cheek.


What are those Republican paramilitary groups trying to blow up things in Britain for when there are still banks left standing in the Irish (Cheese) Republic?

Fixed. Though quite amusing, since we called the French cheese-eating surrender monkeys, it now applies to the Irish.

[gaelic cowboy]

Beskar your obsessed with Cheese for some reason.

The Cheese is for needy families as a once off part of there social welfare it is not for putting on fancy cream crackers.

The government has always actually given these people free butter as a once off and there being given cheese now cos it's cheaper.

[gaelic cowboy]

The cheek.


What are those Republican paramilitary groups trying to blow up things in Britain for when there are still banks left standing in the Irish (banana) Republic?

Dont even joke about it Louis thats the very last thing we need here.

You will be happy to know the bankers will be bared from any bonus craic next time, unfortunately the court upheld there old contract so they had to get a bonus this time.


Bonus tax not to apply to €40m AIB payments (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1209/aib.html)

After it emerged that AIB is paying €40m in bonuses to executives at the bank, the Minister for Finance has proposed a 90% tax on any future bank bonuses.
However this would not affect the AIB bonuses revealed today.
AIB Executive Chairman David Hodgkinson told staff this afternoon that the issuing of the €40m in bonuses to executives 'reflects the past'.
Mr Hodgkinson made his comments in a note to staff this morning after it emerged that 2,400 workers will receive an average bonus of €16,700.
AIB will give the bonuses after several staff took court action to secure the payments.
The payments are part of contracts signed before the financial crisis began in 2008.
It is believed that cheques will be posted to executives on 17 December.
'Whilst this is legally required of us, it reflects the past and is not the way we intend to conduct ourselves in future,' Mr Hodgkinson said.
He added: 'The issues we are facing mean that the bank currently relies on government and taxpayer support and I am working to ensure that, in future, our pay and benefits policy is more reflective of our organisation's responsibilities, performance and of the economic climate in general.'
The bank has so far received €3.5bn of recapitalisation funds from the State.
Shares in the bank have plummeted from €23.95 to just 50c over the last two years.
The €40m represents a significant part of the €572.9m the bank is worth on the ISEQ today. Almost €55m was paid to staff in bonuses last year.
IDA Ireland Chief Executive Barry O'Leary has said it is 'bizarre' that AIB is paying €40m in bonuses to executives.
Mr O'Leary told RTÉ Radio that he wished the IDA had that sort of money to repair the country's tarnished reputation on the international scene.
The issue was raised by Opposition parties in the Dáil this morning.
Labour leader Eamon Gilmore said that the bonuses would amount to more than what a carer would get all year.
Elsewhere, Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny described the payment as scandalous.
He said it was an obscenity that the Irish taxpayer was being asked to fork out for these bonuses while the most vulnerable in society had to bear the brunt of the 'recklessness and incompetence' of Government.
The party is to propose amendments to legislation to impose a 99% 'super tax' on bankers' bonuses.
The amendments are to be put down to the Financial Emergency Measures Bill, which is due to clear all stages in the Dáil by tomorrow afternoon.
Banking Spokesperson Damien English said the proposed amendments would 'tax these immoral bonuses out of existence.'
Minister Lenihan said this afternoon that legislation brought in on foot of the bank guarantee already prohibits the payment of any performance bonuses to senior bank executives.
No bonuses have been paid to bankers for 2009 or for this year.

[drone]

I'm having AIG flashbacks. :rolleyes:
Congress Moves to Slap Heavy Tax on Bonuses (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/19/AR2009031901542.html)

90% Levy for Biggest Payouts at Bailed-Out Firms
Friday, March 20, 2009

Congress moved yesterday to levy punitive taxes on bonuses paid by financial firms receiving government aid, threatening to undermine federal efforts to rescue the financial system by driving away participants in the programs.

A quickly assembled House bill was approved 328 to 93. It struck hard at Wall Street's compensation system, which has come under fire because of the $165 million in bonuses distributed last week by American International Group to executives of the troubled unit that helped lead the insurance giant to the brink of collapse. Under the legislation, those who received bonuses of more than $125,000 would surrender 90 percent of their payments to a special income tax.

[gaelic cowboy]

I'm having AIG flashbacks. :rolleyes:
Congress Moves to Slap Heavy Tax on Bonuses (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/19/AR2009031901542.html)

There talking about bringing in some kind of deferred bonus system for companies outside bailout central.

The idea is to defer payment for 3 yr and if they have a big loss it will be clawed back.

[drone]

In an ideal world, corporate retention bonuses would have a sensible nullification clause. If you run the company into the ground, sorry, no bonus.

[Louis VI the Fat]

You will be happy to know the bankers will be bared from any bonus craic next time, unfortunately the court upheld there old contract so they had to get a bonus this time.
Yes, I understand that the bonus is over 2008.

But, old contracts are not at all upheld. The very point of the bailout is that banks do not have to suffer the financial consequences of their pre-bailout obligations. However, apparantly the bankers are shielded from negative consequences, but protected in positive consequences of pre-bailout arrangements. That is not on.


Dont even joke about it Louis thats the very last thing we need here.Joke? What makes you think I'm joking when I suggest blowing up this bank?

In fact, as we speak, on the news there's this video of Irish Republican paramilitaries who tried to blow up the car of a banking executive. They all burned their lips on the exhaust pipe.

Now that, that was a joke. (Bet you have never heard it before :shame:)

[Strike For The South]

1. Those accents are ridiculous

2. "When we run out of pheasant, we shoot peasant" is something I can see BG saying :)

[gaelic cowboy]

1. Those accents are ridiculous

2. "When we run out of pheasant, we shoot peasant" is something I can see BG saying :)

The quality live a differant life

A postcard from: Sir Jack Leslie (http://www.independent.ie/travel/travel-destinations/a-postcard-from-sir-jack-leslie-1435858.html)


About 10 years ago I decided I would go to my first disco. So I jumped on the village bus and went to The Oasis in Monaghan and never found so many friendly people in my life -- although they would steal my cap! About two years after, I went to Manumission in Ibiza and had a wonderful time.

Bear in mind now that when he went to Manumission in 2001 he was 85 yrs of age and he still goes to the local club in Monaghan

https://img26.imageshack.us/img26/609/sirjack.jpg

Sir Jack prob taken in the Oasis in Monaghan

[Louis VI the Fat]

AIB has decided not to pay the €40m in bonuses to some of its senior staff members after Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan threatened to cut State funding.

AIB says its board has decided not to pay the controversial €40m in bonuses to some of its senior staff members. The move follows a letter from Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1213/lenihan_letter.html)to the bank's board.

The Minister said the payment of financial support needed by the bank from the State would be conditional on the non-payment of bonuses 'no matter when they may have been earned'.
Mr Lenihan said: 'I appreciate that AIB was not in a position to put up a sworn defence in the High Court proceedings and that the Executive Chairman and the Board have acted with complete propriety in this matter.'
The bank said tonight its legal advice had been that it was obliged to pay the bonuses but that the Minister's intervention overtook that obligation.

It said: 'The bank very much appreciates the support it has received to date from the State and the Irish taxpayers and acknowledges that it will continue to rely on this support for some time to come.'
AIB Executive Chairman David Hodgkinson said the bank was 'relieved' to be in a position not to pay the bonuses.

Head of Corporate Services at AIB, Alan Kelly, said that the board of the bank had been embarrassed at the prospect of paying the bonuses.
The bank, which has received €3.5bn from the Government in assistance, was due to pay the bonuses for 2008 as a result of a High Court ruling earlier this year.
A staff member had taken the legal action to force the bank to pay him his bonus.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1213/harneym.html
Common sense at last. :sweatdrop:


Even if I did, somewhat, understood everybody's position - the individual banker wants his 2008 bonus from before the bailout, the judge must rule to honour existing contracts, the bank must abide by that, a government must not interfere with individual court decisions - still, the overwhelming emotion was: what were they all even thinking!? :wall:

[Beskar]

Should do what they did with the NHS. Force everyone to have a sign a new contract within a couple of months, or they find themselves out of a job and without redundancy pay.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Should do what they did with the NHS. Force everyone to have a sign a new contract within a couple of months, or they find themselves out of a job and without redundancy pay.Sometimes, my dear perfidious neighbours, there is such a merciless brutality to Britain that it borders on common sense.

[Furunculus]

lessons for ireland from iceland:

http://www.economist.com/node/17732935?story_id=17732935&fsrc=scn/tw/te/rss/pe

[gaelic cowboy]

lessons for ireland from iceland:

http://www.economist.com/node/17732935?story_id=17732935&fsrc=scn/tw/te/rss/pe

The EU/ECB is terrified we may agitate for this when the new government is elected in the next year.

The EU will eventually be forced kicking and screaming into an Iceland scenario for the PIIGS eventually the gordan gecko types will demand it.

[Furunculus]

The EU/ECB is terrified we may agitate for this when the new government is elected in the next year.

The EU will eventually be forced kicking and screaming into an Iceland scenario for the PIIGS eventually the gordan gecko types will demand it.

yes, i'm not sure i see an alternative.

either the PIIGS go or germany goes, otherwise the former will be forever saddled with debts they cannot afford, and can never pay off.

[Beskar]

yes, i'm not sure i see an alternative.

either the PIIGS go or germany goes, otherwise the former will be forever saddled with debts they cannot afford, and can never pay off.

but if the PIGS go, their debts will be linked to the Euro, so they couldn't just inflate themselves out of it.

[rory_20_uk]

but if the PIGS go, their debts will be linked to the Euro, so they couldn't just inflate themselves out of it.

Unless they really pissed off the market and converted the debts to the new currency at the ratio they left at...

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

it would certainly be the uglier solution, because the remainder would be mighty peeved if they felt that leavers were just going to rejoin a few years later once their debts had been devalued away.

given that there is no legal mechanism to leave the only nation that can leave with the consent of others would be germany, because its 'new' currency would in fact appreciate.

[gaelic cowboy]

but if the PIGS go, their debts will be linked to the Euro, so they couldn't just inflate themselves out of it.


The eurozone as a whole can easily assume the entire debt of the PIIGS but it's not politically unacceptable to Germany, so we bailout countries and hope they can be reordered while there debt stays intact. This is sold as bringing prudence to whoever needs the medicine but really it cannot work so the entire thing is a massive bluff to safegaurd the "Euro".

The big danger now is the entire Euro currency might implode because no one is able or willing to act in defence of it.

[gaelic cowboy]

it would certainly be the uglier solution, because the remainder would be mighty peeved if they felt that leavers were just going to rejoin a few years later once their debts had been devalued away.

given that there is no legal mechanism to leave the only nation that can leave with the consent of others would be germany, because its 'new' currency would in fact appreciate.

They wont leave because a new D-mark would ruin the German economy which is based on exports.

There are two solutions either devalue all the debt or print some euro and inflate it away.

The ECB is willing to do neither which means they place the entire Euro at risk now for what is effectively a couple of percent of Eurozone GDP.