Double Passports in the Government

[The Stranger]

I dont know if there already is a thread about this but recently it has come to my attention that our government, who previously pleaded that people in the Government should be completely loyal to the country (valid point) and therefore they should not have a double passport (debatable point), has a member which has a double passport. The person who this concerns is the State Secretary and has another passport from Sweden next to her Dutch one.

Now the Prime minister's response to the question why she would be allowed to stay while they were so against people in the Government with a double passport was this: A passport from Sweden is alot different than from example Turkey (this example is given because a Turkish State Secretary was cause for this debate when Wilders put forward a motion of Distrust because he doubted her loyalty to Holland.) because Turkey still has Military Service for her subjects outside het country and also hereditary law (erfrecht) and Sweden does not (I dont agree that this is a valid point but it is true) and also Turkey follows her subjects that have politcal carreers abroad and makes sure that they do not do anything that goes against the interest of Turkey (while this might be true he doesn't know it to be true, it is mere assumption and therefor an invalid argument. And i can presume that Turkey would not be the only country to do so.) and he claims Sweden doesn't.

He thinks he is not discriminating when he hints at the point that a Turk is not loyal to the country he or she lives in merely for being Turkish while a Swede is...

Boy oh Boy! And to top it off already Wilders has put forward a motion of distrust against the State Secretary (merely for show ofcourse, but atleast he is consistent) so the hunting season has begun and we can now all sit in front of our televisions and enjoy the sitcomedy called The Dutch Parliament!!

[al Roumi]

First off, I assume the "State Secretary" is an elected politician, not an official (civil servant)?

A politician's legitimacy is provided by the electoral vote. In matters of national security, the UK does perform background security checks on its ministers (politicians in charge of a government department/govt business), as on it's officials.

Banning multiple passports sounds rather like not trusting people simply becasue you perceive them as foreign. There have been plenty enough traitors who are not "foreign" to a given state.

[HoreTore]

Yeah we've had a case like this too, completely idiotic.

Our case concerned a French born woman, and being from a colony she was dark-skinned. Our "immigrationally challenged" party of course jumped on her instantly, but when we had a Dane a few years earlier they were silent as the grave...

The fact is that a Dane or a Swede is actually more of a "threat" than a Turk or a Caribbean French, because Norway and Denmark and Dutchistan and Sweden(being neighbors/EU members) have a lot more dealings with each other than the Netherlands and Turkey, and Norway and French Guyana(or whatever).

[Fragony]

It's an inconsistency that's very unfortunate to say the least. Rutte is of course right Turkey is always meddling. Also, Dutch Turks still have to serve in the Turkish army. But he should have made stand.

[Hax]

Then for crying out loud, do something about it. I have the Algerian nationality, but I don't want it. If Rutte-Verhagen can make people lose their nationality, let them talk to the Arabic countries. Pressure them.

[The Stranger]

this might be true but, for point 2 she is a woman so i doubt she has to serve in the army. and for point 1 turkey is most definitly not the only country, and for while it might be true that the swedes do not it is still a trivial point because the notion made clear is that the double passport standard only applies to non western countries for reasion which are dubious to say the least.

and to adress the other double passport point, they cannot just evict people who commit crimes AND happen to have a double passport. for who are they to decide which nationality weighs more, what will happen if the other country doesnt want that person either and does the opposite. Or how would holland react if dutch people with double passports would be evicted from canada or australia or south africa (if the it has to be non-western) when they commit crimes, they would talk of outrage. And even then I do not understand while it should only apply to non-western nationalites, why not to americans? and i doubt sincerely they would dare to evict a chinese criminal and take away his dutch passport and send him to china with a card which says": Here he is your problem now, he is half chinese and since whiteness is the receeding gene he is more chinese so you deal with it" signed "Poor Europe"

[rory_20_uk]

Yes they can, if it's like the UK. Those with two passports can loose their UK one and then technically should be deported. Those with only one passport can not be treated in this way. I don't know how often this happens in reality.


~:smoking:

[al Roumi]

Yes they can, if it's like the UK. Those with two passports can loose their UK one and then technically should be deported. Those with only one passport can not be treated in this way. I don't know how often this happens in reality.

Not quite. UK courts have a responsability of duty of care for the people they prosecute. The Uk can't just extradite criminals willy nilly, there has to be an assurance from the country to which the individual is returning to that the said individual will be treated humanely and not subject to toruture etc (i.e. that they will be subject to conditions similar to those in the UK).

This concern for the rights of prisoners is why not everyone, even the real nasties like convicted terrorists, cannot be deported and have to be kept in UK jails.

[rory_20_uk]

Something that should be urgently rectified.

"Commit crimes in the UK and get this - we can't get rid of you! Bunk in a 'Prison' that's nicer than a house where you come from and when you come out feel free to do it all again!"

~:smoking:

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes they can, if it's like the UK. Those with two passports can loose their UK one and then technically should be deported. Those with only one passport can not be treated in this way. I don't know how often this happens in reality.


~:smoking:

Not true there are loads of people in UK with British and Irish passports I never heard of any problems of deportation.

[rory_20_uk]

Nevermind

[al Roumi]

Not true there are loads of people in UK with British and Irish passports I never heard of any problems of deportation.

He was continuing the Stranger's point regarding extradition of convicted criminals.

[gaelic cowboy]

He was continuing the Stranger's point regarding extradition of convicted criminals.

Many IRA members living in the North have Irish passports because that is there right but they are technically British and can have both passports if they wanted too.

There were various rules like you could have one if your parents or grandparents were old enough to have been born in a unified Ireland then under British rule and various others.

The rules have since changed slightly now but essentially UK never deported these people even if they never applied for a British passport ever.

[Fragony]

Then for crying out loud, do something about it. I have the Algerian nationality, but I don't want it. If Rutte-Verhagen can make people lose their nationality, let them talk to the Arabic countries. Pressure them.

Agreed. It's an ugly situation, especially in Turkey's case since you lose Dutch nationality for serving in a foreign army. Dutch government pays Turkey off, which they should imho, but it's also madness. Also worried about pressure, Turks are proud people, calling someone a bad Turk is a major insult (that is my experience at least), having just one nationality would relieve part of it. As it is, as harsh as it may sound, we can't trust them on key positions.

[al Roumi]

As it is, as harsh as it may sound, we can't trust them on key positions.

Are there no Dutch Turks serving in the Dutch armed forces?

[Andres]

First off, I assume the "State Secretary" is an elected politician, not an official (civil servant)?

A politician's legitimacy is provided by the electoral vote. In matters of national security, the UK does perform background security checks on its ministers (politicians in charge of a government department/govt business), as on it's officials.



Isn't it so that in a representative/parliamentary democracy, the members of the government aren't directly elected, only the members of Parliament are? And the Parliament choses the members of the government? Don't know about the Netherlands, but, technically, in Belgium it is possible to put people in government who aren't elected. If the majority of the Parliament e.g. elects X for minister of finances, then X will be minister of finances, doesn't matter if X took part in the elections or not.

If it works the same in the Netherlands as here, then I guess you'll have to look in your legislation and see if double nationality is forbidden or not; and change the legislation if you don't want somebody with two passports as minister/secretary of state.

Personally, I think it's reasonable to demand that in order to get such an important position at the head of the country, you need to have the nationality of the country. In case of double nationality, the candidate should be forced to chose one. We're talking of a member of the government, not the local low grade civil servant who puts stamps on documents from 9 am until 4 pm, with a lunch break and three coffee breaks.

[al Roumi]

Isn't it so that in a representative/parliamentary democracy, the members of the government aren't directly elected, only the members of Parliament are? And the Parliament choses the members of the government? Don't know about the Netherlands, but, technically, in Belgium it is possible to put people in government who aren't elected. If the majority of the Parliament e.g. elects X for minister of finances, then X will be minister of finances, doesn't matter if X took part in the elections or not.

I think the UK is rather different to most other European countries (in this in particular), the top jobs in all government departments are given to elected representatives -or individuals given a title (e.g. Lord or Baroness) so as to enable them to sit in either the House of Commons or Lords and in so doing be publicly responsible (to other MPs or Lords) for their department.


Personally, I think it's reasonable to demand that in order to get such an important position at the head of the country, you need to have the nationality of the country. In case of double nationality, the candidate should be forced to chose one. We're talking of a member of the government, not the local low grade civil servant who puts stamps on documents from 9 am until 4 pm, with a lunch break and three coffee breaks.

My personal opinion may be biased here, having both British and French nationality, but I'm not convinced that insisting on a single legal nationality would really help much keep a government "safer". In practical terms, not having an additional nationality/passport would not hinder anyone from e.g. passing on state secrets, let alone being prone to "external influence"*. You'd have to insist on allegiance to the state or whatever -which is exactly why UK MPs are required to swear an oath of fealty to the Queen, and why Sinn Fein cannot sit in Parliament (becasue they won't swear such fealty, for obvious reasons).

*Edit: That is, assuming someone already has multiple nationalities/cultural ties. Lets also not forget ideology, the key divider from the cold war.

[Andres]

I think the UK is rather different to most other European countries (in this in particular), the top jobs in all government departments are given to elected representatives -or individuals given a title (e.g. Lord or Baroness) so as to enable them to sit in either the House of Commons or Lords and in so doing be publicly responsible (to other MPs or Lords) for their department.

I see.

Well, I would have the same opinion if it the official would have been directly elected and had been open about his/her nationality during campaign. If the British people want a Turk/Russian/Belgian/whatever to be their Prime Minister and he is directly elected by the people, then I see no objections. It wouldn't be my choice, but if that is what the majority of the people truly want :shrug:



My personal opinion may be biased here, having both British and French nationality, but I'm not convinced that insisting on a single legal nationality would really help much keep a government "safer". In practical terms, not having an additional nationality/passport would not hinder anyone from e.g. passing on state secrets, let alone being prone to "external influence". You'd have to insist on allegiance to the state or whatever -which is exactly why UK MPs are required to swear an oath of fealty to the Queen, and why Sinn Fein cannot sit in Parliament (becasue they won't swear such fealty, for obvious reasons).

Matter of principle, perhaps?

Dutch secretary of state should be Dutch. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. I've never been a fan of double or triple nationalities and I think it should not be allowed to have more than one nationality, but that's just me.

[al Roumi]

Matter of principle, perhaps?

Indeed, I can't really see a non-national politician being elected in the first place though, so the issue is usually around those with more than one nationality. We only have to look at the myths around Barak Obama to see how even a nation famously open to meritocracy and immigration can be chronicaly sensitive to someone with even potential extra allegiances.

[HoreTore]

Are there no Dutch Turks serving in the Dutch armed forces?

There are Dutchies, Norwegians, Swedes, Brits, etc etc serving in various mercenary armies all over the world. A lot of them in mercernary armies we are not allied with, which is a whole lot worse than serving in our NATO-ally Turkey's defense force.

Does that mean the Dutch should be banned from holding public office in the Netherlands?

[Andres]

1) Why is it unreasonable to ask that a Dutch secretary of state has the Dutch nationality?
2) Why is it unreasonable that if a candidate has double nationality, he's asked to chose the Dutch one and to get rid of his other nationality?

[HoreTore]

1) Why is it unreasonable to ask that a Dutch secretary of state has the Dutch nationality?
2) Why is it unreasonable that if a candidate has double nationality, he's asked to chose the Dutch one and to get rid of his other nationality?

Why is it neccessary?

If his superiors deem him or her qualified, why should your country be denied the service of the best qualified applicant due to some passport-thingy?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Far as I am concerned double nationality should not be an issue per se. Treason or pressure from foreign countries are not limited to people with a double passport, either.

What is reasonable is to require that if one is to serve in the Dutch government/military he/she is to simply carry out his/her job without particular regard for the interests of another country. AFAIK that's what the various oaths already do.

[Hax]

Don't forget! Treason is just one tea away from reason!

[The Stranger]

Agreed. It's an ugly situation, especially in Turkey's case since you lose Dutch nationality for serving in a foreign army. Dutch government pays Turkey off, which they should imho, but it's also madness. Also worried about pressure, Turks are proud people, calling someone a bad Turk is a major insult (that is my experience at least), having just one nationality would relieve part of it. As it is, as harsh as it may sound, we can't trust them on key positions.

but why could you trust an american or a chinese in a such a position?

it is a hard conclusion based on many assumptions but barely on any facts.

[HoreTore]

Far as I am concerned double nationality should not be an issue per se. Treason or pressure from foreign countries are not limited to people with a double passport, either.

What is reasonable is to require that if one is to serve in the Dutch government/military he/she is to simply carry out his/her job without particular regard for the interests of another country. AFAIK that's what the various oaths already do.

Though, if we do deny people because of passports, why should we stop there?

Honestly, if that makes sense, why not ban people married to people from another country? Or someone who has worked or studied a long time abroad, it goes without saying that after spending 10 years living in another country, you usually end up with some feelings for that country... And what if you're employed by a multi-national company operating in your own country? Won't someone who has been employed by Opel for 20 years have stronger feelings towards Germany than others?

Or what about people who love food coming from other places? I love indian food, is that the reason why I have strong feelings towards India? Or perhaps it's my childhood friend from Punjab, does he make me more likely to sell my country to india?

[The Stranger]

I see.

Well, I would have the same opinion if it the official would have been directly elected and had been open about his/her nationality during campaign. If the British people want a Turk/Russian/Belgian/whatever to be their Prime Minister and he is directly elected by the people, then I see no objections. It wouldn't be my choice, but if that is what the majority of the people truly want :shrug:




Matter of principle, perhaps?

Dutch secretary of state should be Dutch. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. I've never been a fan of double or triple nationalities and I think it should not be allowed to have more than one nationality, but that's just me.

perhaps not at all unreasonable, BUT then they should get rid of their secretary of state, which they dont. and that is hypocrite, and even better to defend themself they deny their hypocracy by advocating some sort of discrimination... way to go!!!

I actually feel strongly in favor of abolishing all passports, but I havent yet came up with a alternative so i cant really make that point...



i have to agree with horetore and tellos, it is not at all unreasonable to make such a demand but is it neccesary? does it fix the problem of having unreliable people in key positions. imo it doesnt, it is just some quick fix which will not hold together. and it is not like the person doesnt have the dutch nationality at all, that person has already been deemed "good" enough to get the dutch nationality (or the other one) and has proven him/herself to the party she is a member of, and then lets not forget that the intelligence service will no doubt run some background checks on the person in question.

[HoreTore]

I actually feel strongly in favor of abolishing all passports, but I havent yet came up with a alternative so i cant really make that point...

I'll give an alternative: No borders whatsoever. I don't see why the government should be able to decide who I talk to, who to be friends with, work with/for, love, marry, have children with, etc etc

The right demands strict control with those things, and at the same time they cry about "freedom".... I call BS.

[The Stranger]

I'll give an alternative: No borders whatsoever. I don't see why the government should be able to decide who I talk to, who to be friends with, work with/for, love, marry, have children with, etc etc

The right demands strict control with those things, and at the same time they cry about "freedom".... I call BS.

i also favor such a tendency but lets face it, it wont work just yet. but i hope that step by step humanity will move in that direction.

[gaelic cowboy]

1) Why is it unreasonable to ask that a Dutch secretary of state has the Dutch nationality?
2) Why is it unreasonable that if a candidate has double nationality, he's asked to chose the Dutch one and to get rid of his other nationality?


Well to be fair to dual nationals if they were elected to represent the people then there oath of office would mean in practice they would hold there local nationality above the other one.

Hence our current president Mary McAleese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_McAleese) she is Head of State and basically the Commander in Chief of the Irish defence forces.

https://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4342/mcaleesemn.jpg

She was born in Belfast after partition and now serves her country quite well I might add and last time I checked only complete loons questioned the possibility she was unfit for office.

[Ronin]

well she is obviously a double-triple-or even quadruple agent for sure!...for sure!

[HoreTore]

I've never undedrstood why people bother with or care about all these "oaths". Why on earth does anyone believe that saying a few words is going to affect their behavior?

I've signed a few papers saying that I agree never to speak about certain things, but do I care? Nope, if the Russkies or anyone else wants to know how the MRR works, I'll be more than happy to tell them everything I know if I wanted to.

That piece of paper I once signed is something I honestly could not care less about.

[gaelic cowboy]

well she is obviously a double-triple-or even quadruple agent for sure!...for sure!

:laugh::laugh:

Lets see her parents home burned and the family forced to become practically refugees by loyalist mobs I think were safe enough.

:wink:

[The Stranger]

I've never undedrstood why people bother with or care about all these "oaths". Why on earth does anyone believe that saying a few words is going to affect their behavior?

I've signed a few papers saying that I agree never to speak about certain things, but do I care? Nope, if the Russkies or anyone else wants to know how the MRR works, I'll be more than happy to tell them everything I know if I wanted to.

That piece of paper I once signed is something I honestly could not care less about.

because then atleast legally you can be held accountable for what you have done. its one of the effects of the culture of negative responsibility where it is all about making sure that someone is convicted for a negative result and about finding a scapegoat and someone to blame and not about preventing the problem and making sure the there will be a solution to a problem when it arises. and ofcourse it is a relic of the time when giving your word actually meant something, and it is not really a good thing imo that those days are past.

[HoreTore]

because then atleast legally you can be held accountable for what you have done.

Nonsense, all they would have to do to make me legally accountable, is to make a law that says it's illegal for anyone to release secrets to others.

And it just so happens that we do have a law like that.



And I still won't give a crap about that if I feel that giving secrets to the russkies is a good thing to do, I will do it no matter what the law says.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

....Does that mean the Dutch should be banned from holding public office in the Netherlands?

That would bring down government spending a bit...

[Louis VI the Fat]

well she is obviously a double-triple-or even quadruple agent for sure!...for sure!Her first name's Catholic and her surname is Sco'ish!

She's an Orangist, a Loyalist, an agent of London and a servant to Rome!

[gaelic cowboy]

Her first name's Catholic and her surname is Sco'ish!

She's an Orangist, a Loyalist, an agent of London and a servant to Rome!

Dependinng on how one spells the name it is Irish or Scots generally but not always Mc/Mac shows the origin

in English it's McAleese but as gaelige it is "Mac Giolla Iosa" which translates into "son of the devotee of Jesus"

McAleese of course is only her married name and her actual maiden name is Lenaghan a fine Connacht sept

[HoreTore]

McAleese of course is only her married name and her actual maiden name is Lenaghan a fine Connacht sept

I just conquered Connacht in my EU3 game and minimized to surf a little, and I see this... How cool is that?

[gaelic cowboy]

I just conquered Connacht in my EU3 game and minimized to surf a little, and I see this... How cool is that?

I for one welcome our new Nordic overlords.

Now there is a tiny matter about this huge debt we have should be no problem with all that oil of yours.

[al Roumi]

I for one welcome our new Nordic overlords.

Now there is a tiny matter about this huge debt we have should be no problem with all that oil of yours.

[cough] fabled Norwegian sovereign wealth fund [cough]

[HoreTore]

I for one welcome our new Nordic overlords.

Now there is a tiny matter about this huge debt we have should be no problem with all that oil of yours.

I'm brittany, unfortunately :/

And frenchies are only good for rioting against the government....

[gaelic cowboy]

I'm brittany, unfortunately :/

And frenchies are only good for rioting against the government....

in the words of a cliche half mad gold miner from the old west

"gorn namit"

[Fragony]

Nonsense, all they would have to do to make me legally accountable, is to make a law that says it's illegal for anyone to release secrets to others.

And it just so happens that we do have a law like that.



And I still won't give a crap about that if I feel that giving secrets to the russkies is a good thing to do, I will do it no matter what the law says.


I think you are underestimating the pressure, but than again that is guessing work. There are more difficulties, heritage-rights, army-duty, also, saying there was a genocide is a crime in Turkey but it's our government stance that it was genocide, a Dutch/Turkish mop can get into trouble over that when in Turkey having to explain our stance. They won't as they nicely recite Turkeys take on things, but still.

[HoreTore]

I think you are underestimating the pressure, but than again that is guessing work. There are more difficulties, heritage-rights, army-duty, also, saying there was a genocide is a crime in Turkey but it's our government stance that it was genocide, a Dutch/Turkish mop can get into trouble over that when in Turkey having to explain our stance. They won't as they nicely recite Turkeys take on things, but still.

Turkey is your military ally. Military service should be a non-issue.

[Fragony]

Turkey is your military ally. Military service should be a non-issue.

It isn't an issue since we pay them off. I'd rather hear you on the Armenian genocide and it's recognition. Explain to me how that can't be an issue with a healthy dose of common sense

[The Stranger]

who pays them off??? the turks themself have to pay.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I googled around a bit. Apparantly French citizens can avoid military service in Turkey by joining the French army, or by publicly providing proof they engage in homosexual acts (:wall:), or by paying the Turkish government 5000 euros in foreign currency.

Failing any of those, all males with some Turkish ancestor, including those born abroad, of mixed marriage, who don't speak a word of Turkish and have never ever set foot in Turkey, will be branded a deserter and will have trouble travelling.


It is all rather infuriating. Turkey and the Arab states consider anybody born of their ancestors one of their own, and will subject them to their laws for all eternity.

[HoreTore]

I googled around a bit. Apparantly French citizens can avoid military service in Turkey by joining the French army, or by publicly providing proof they engage in homosexual acts (:wall:), or by paying the Turkish government 5000 euros in foreign currency.

Failing any of those, all males with some Turkish ancestor, including those born abroad, of mixed marriage, who don't speak a word of Turkish and have never ever set foot in Turkey, will be branded a deserter and will have trouble travelling.


It is all rather infuriating. Turkey and the Arab states consider anybody born of their ancestors one of their own, and will subject them to their laws for all eternity.

Completed military service in Norway counts as completing military service in Turkey, so you will only have to serve once - or none at all, as being deemed unfit for service counts as completing military service here. You guys probably have this problem since you don't have conscription anymore, but I would assume that joining the French or Dutch army will excempt you from turkish military service.

Although completing military service in Turkey doesn't excempt you from conscription in Norway, for some reason...

Also, I do believe that any potential politician would be a little older than the draft age.....

@Frags: I fail to see how a minister of transportation, for example, will ever be required to state their opinion on whether what happened to the Armenians a hundred years ago was a genocide or not.... However, as I hate any anti-free speech laws, I would've loved to see them just speak their mind, and appeal any criminal charges by any country because of it to the ECHR.

[Hax]

It is all rather infuriating. Turkey and the Arab states consider anybody born of their ancestors one of their own, and will subject them to their laws for all eternity.

I am kind of concerned with this as well. My family in Algeria are generally of good standing, but some close relatives of mine aren't real fans of the government (and some of them actively mentioned not liking the government several times in the media), so they can't travel to Algeria. As far as I know, the Algerian government isn't really that big on that stuff anymore, but eh. Luckily, I'm Turkish only by ancestry, and my line of the family doesn't have the Turkish nationality any more, so that's kinda handy.

But if our government can tell the Algerian government to un-register me as a citizen, hey, all the better for me, eh.

[Louis VI the Fat]

But if our government can tell the Algerian government to un-register me as a citizen, hey, all the better for me, eh.Sorry, no can do. One drop of blood and all that. You'll always remain an Algerian to Algeria.

Only in Europe is the Arab a free man.


We shouldn't have let go of Algeria. For all the faults of colonialism, Algeria had theatres, cinemas, books. Now these are closed or burned. In their place, there are megamosques everywhere, secret police, backwardness.

Algeria in 2010 would've been the California of Europe if it were still three French departments.

[Hax]

Sorry, no can do. One drop of blood and all that. You'll always remain an Algerian to Algeria.

Only in Europe is the Arab a free man.

For the present, perhaps. I seriously do believe this can change, eh.


We shouldn't have let go of Algeria. For all the faults of colonialism, Algeria had theatres, cinemas, books. Now these are closed or burned. In their place, there are megamosques everywhere, secret police, backwardness.

Algeria in 2010 would've been the California of Europe if it were still three French departments.

I don't know. I'm not a fan of Algeria at all, but at least it's better than the Saudi state. And of course, they have their own problems with Islamists down south.

[HoreTore]

I don't know. I'm not a fan of Algeria at all, but at least it's better than the Saudi state. And of course, they have their own problems with Islamists down south.

At least Algeria isn't paralyzed by strikes or rebelling youth....

[Fragony]

who pays them off??? the turks themself have to pay.

8000 euro is a lot of money, I'm ok with government paying it, it are Dutch citizens so they deserve that protection, but Turkey really has to end this meddling crap. Our Turks.

[Tellos Athenaios]

8000 euro is a lot of money, I'm ok with government paying it, it are Dutch citizens so they deserve that protection, but Turkey really has to end this meddling crap. Our Turks.

No. Our Dutch. The sooner that's settled the better.

[Fragony]

No. Our Dutch.

Turkey doesn't think so

[The Stranger]

8000 euro is a lot of money, I'm ok with government paying it, it are Dutch citizens so they deserve that protection, but Turkey really has to end this meddling crap. Our Turks.

so the government pays 8000 euro and the people themself pay 5000 euro?

[Fragony]

so the government pays 8000 euro and the people themself pay 5000 euro?

Government pays 8000 here in the Neds, guess it's 5000 in France. They could really get in trouble if we didn't both abroad and here, you don't want to be labeled a traitor, a pack of grey wolves is at your doorstep before you can say baklava.

[The Stranger]

does the government really pays??? thats what i want to know. or do the ppl pay themself or is it like a split deal?

[Fragony]

does the government really pays??? thats what i want to know.

Well yeah

[The Stranger]

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/nederlandse-nationaliteit/dubbele-nationaliteiten/dienstplicht-en-dubbele-nationaliteit

keypoints:

there are two ways to complete the turkish military service:
*complete the 15 months service in Turkey
*complete only the basic training of 21 days and pay a sum of money


the sum of money is:
* € 5112 for men until 38 years of age
* € 7667 for men of 38 years till 44 years of age

The military service doesn't have to be completed when you are declared unfit for service.\

it also says that you can renounce your turkish nationality and then you wont have to do the military service in turkey.


but nowhere it says that the government will pay...

[Fragony]

Oh it doesn't, it also doesn't say that you are excused from serving completely.

[The Stranger]

do you have any facts to back up that the government pays? or is it just a feeling you have?

[Fragony]

do you have any facts to back up that the government pays? or is it just a feeling you have?

Was in HP de Tijd I believe, or Elsevier forgot which one.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well let me just say that were I to have the Turkish nationality, this would be good enough for me:


Afstand doen van Turkse nationaliteit en geen dienstplicht meer hebben

Door afstand te doen van de Turkse nationaliteit (en dat is volgens de Turkse wet mogelijk) hoeft u de dienstplicht in Turkije niet te vervullen. Om afstand te mogen doen, moet u voldoen aan enkele eisen:
u bent meerderjarig en handelingsbekwaam;
u heeft een andere nationaliteit (bijvoorbeeld de Nederlandse);
in Turkije staat u niet vanwege een misdrijf op een lijst van gezochte personen;
er is geen sprake van fiscale of strafrechtelijke belemmering. Dat houdt in dan u geen belastingsschulden heeft of strafbare feiten heeft gepleegd.

U kunt afstand van uw Turkse nationaliteit doen via het Turkse consulaat.

So fill in a form and be done with it. Of course if you want to keep your Turkish nationality you got to pay your dues (i.e. active military duty).

[Fragony]

Just read an article on Hoeiboei, they claim it's perfectly possible to give up Maroccan nationality. Don't know if it's true but it certainly is new to me

[Hax]

Just read an article on Hoeiboei, they claim it's perfectly possible to give up Maroccan nationality. Don't know if it's true but it certainly is new to me

I think it's possible, but difficult. Very difficult.

[Fragony]

I think it's possible, but difficult. Very difficult.

Sounds like it, here is article maybe it applies for Algeria as well. http://hoeiboei.blogspot.com/2010/10/de-nationale-blinde-vlek-marokkanen.html

[Louis VI the Fat]

NM, Fragony was well ahead of me.

[Fragony]

Good development our not to be underestimated new political climate of no-policor nonsense is a godsend. A group of self-appointed liberal Maroccans openly speaks out against the meddling of Marocco's goverment and salafist imams. Yeah we are there for you mia muca's we don't like that either. Welcome to the Netherlands, and you really are.

[Fragony]

The woes of a man falling in love with a Maroccan women, the country he married with by doing so, and the confusion of self-congratulating gutmensch who can uneffortly recite concensus on what is progressive and what is entartre http://opinie.volkskrant.nl/artikel/show/id/7083/Gemeente_maakt_uit_wie_Marokkaan_is