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View Full Version : Preview: The Qarthadastim



Tanit
11-02-2010, 14:37
Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans.


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Today we are proud to present the Safot Softim biQarthadastim, who return to the field of battle in Europa Barbarorum 2. In this preview you will be shown an update on changes to the EB2 map in the Western Mediterranean, brand new Semitic settlement images, new units fighting for the glory of Qart-Hadast, the re-worked Qarthadastim family tree, complete with biographies, and details on the new Qarthadastim government system. Finally, the preview includes a heartfelt thank you to for the assistance of Professor David Mattingly.

Our people were not always soldiers.
We were not always the rulers of an Empire.
When we came to this country we paid rent for the land we lived on.
But the other Western colonies came under assault from many enemies,
The Western Greeks such as Syracuse and Massalia,
Libyans and nomads of Africa,
and Iberians.
So we made a stand.
We, traders and merchants unversed in the art of war,
supplemented our own citizens with foreign soldiers loyal to the paychest,
and we marched out to carve for ourselves an Empire in the west
that would preserve the religion, power, and culture of the Canaanites.
An Empire founded, and ruled, by the Qarthadastim.

'We will either find a way, or make one' - Hannibal




https://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5421/mapfcarthage.jpg (https://img13.imageshack.us/i/mapfcarthage.jpg/)

Zeugitania, Corsica and Sardinia Province Descriptions
Province: Zeugei

It is said of this country that, when the Carthaginians first arrived, a tax was placed upon them for whatever land they occupied. It is also said that Elissa, the Queen of Carthage at the time of its foundation, was told by the native tribes that she and her followers could posses as much land as she could cover with an oxhide. Being a woman of great intelligence and ingenuity she divided the oxhide into many pieces, and, laying out an outline for the city by placing the pieces of the hide side by side, so cheated the Libyans of their trickery and secured the site of Carthage. Whether or not this is true I do not know, I merely repeat what I have heard.

Zeugei is a rich land with great abundance in farmland and forest. It borders the region of Muxsi to the north along the river Medjerda, wherein great serpents are said to live, and the region of Byzakion to the south along the coast. To the Southwest Zeugei borders Tiskat, the land of the Massilian Numidians who dwell in the plains and the foothills of the mountains.

The land of Zeugei is dominated by two main geographical regions. The first of these is the great peninsula at the very north east of the country. This peninsula in turn shelters the other dominant geographic region which is the Gulf of Tunis. It is this gulf which provides the shelter and resources which have given rise to the many hundreds of prosperous ports therein.

Geography: While Zeugei is a small region its terrain makes it exceedingly prosperous. The territory of Zeugei lies at the center of the western outcropping of Africa, the eastern being the region of Kyrenaia. Along the coast of Zeugei is the peninsula which shelters and thus creates the natural harbor in which Carthage and many other ports are located. Carthage itself is located within a smaller natural harbor of its own which may have been manmade. This coastal region is where the true value of Zeugei lies. But it is not the only boon of this land.

The Medjerda river to the north provides a steady lifeline of water as well as a trade route into the interior of Africa as far as the lands of the Massylian Numidians and even further up into the foothills of the Atlas mountains. The land around this main river as well as the many smaller rivers is extremely fertile and, worked by the native Libyans, provides a steady source of food. The plains are not the only fertile lands here. The forests of this country provide abundant lumber for construction and ship building.

The land is abundant with many different creatures. Large numbers of horses are raised on the fertile plains both of larger breeds similar to European horses as well as the smaller ponies favoured by the natives. While elephants are a rare sight this close to the coast by this time, instead being more common in the foothills of the mountains, they can still occasionally be found, especially when they are imported specifically for the purpose of being trained for war. Native lions have largely been pushed into the interior of the land but are not an uncommon sight. Monkeys are commonly traded as pets, particularly for the amusement of children. Other creatures found in these lands included antelopes, gazelles, buffaloes, and asses, oryxes, whose horns are used for the curved sides of citherns, and whose size is about that of the ox; foxes, hyaenas, porcupines, wild rams, dictyes, jackals, panthers, boryes, land-crocodiles about three cubits in length, very like lizards, ostriches, and little snakes, each with a single horn, three sorts of mice in these parts; the first are called two-footed; the next, zegeries, which is a Libyan word meaning "hills"; and the third, urchins. Many of these creatures had been competed out of the northern coastal regions such as Zeugei, certainly by later times, but they may have still existed in this region at this time. Bees were raised in neighboring territories and may have also been raised in Zeugei.

History: This land was dominated by a number of native tribes, given the common term for native Africans, Libyans, by the Greeks, which primarily included the Maxyan tribes. Herodotus lists several other Libyan tribes in this area and, while his information can often be somewhat unreliable, it is the only source for early times in this region. These tribes are the Zavecians, Gyzantians and the island of Cyraunis. At some point beginning in the twelfth century BC, and continuing through to the eight century BC, Phoenician colonists began to arrive on the coasts of Africa and founded several colonies. These colonies included Carthage. Early myths suggest tension between the colonists and the locals of some sort, yet not violent. While these myths of this time are undoubtedly exaggerated, this does not mean that there isn’t something to be learned from them. Some sort of pressure was exerted by the natives on the colonists and whether it was a land tax or not, it is presented as one of the catalysts for the emergence of Carthage as a regional power and its subsequent dominance over the western Mediterranean.

At some point before the fifth century BC Carthage was a prosperous trading city in Zeugei, but still under pressure from the locals of some sort. Carthage, according to ancient historians, saw this pressure and compared it to the conquest of Phoenician colonies in Sicily and the pressures exerted upon these colonies in Spain and other parts of Africa. These observations convinced Carthage that action must be taken and we are told by historians that they threw off their land tax and subdued the surrounding region of Zeugei. Following this, Carthage set out on a campaign to supposedly liberate the many Phoenician colonies of the western Mediterranean from the oppression of Greeks, Iberians and Libyans.

As Carthage rose in power its port, triple walls, and religious sector became renowned throughout the ancient world. A number of historians journeyed to Carthage to observe these structures for their writings. It is also likely that, given the sheer size of the religious complexes, pilgrims from other colonies may have come to Carthage. Certainly Carthage regularly sent ambassadors and offerings to Tyre and the religious complex there even after the second Punic war. In the surrounding country the Libyans were best known for working vast amounts of farmland.
In 310 BC Agathocles of Syracuse crossed over to Africa and the territory of Zeugei experienced invasion for the first time. Zeugei had of course experienced conflict between the native tribes and Carthage before and Carthage had suffered at least one attempted coup, but it was not on the same level as an invasion by an external enemy. Agathocles’ invasion resulted in another attempted coup in Carthage as well as the ravaging of the land. While many Libyans took to Agathocles’ cause, enough did not that Agathocles was eventually forced to retreat from Africa. A similar invasion under Regullus took place during the First Punic War, but the greatest upset to Libyan life came during the Mercenaries War shortly after the First Punic War ended. During the Mercenaries War Libya revolted almost completely and sided with the mercenaries. The resulting devastation caused by both Carthage and the mercenaries, neither side offering any concession to their opponent, wrecked Libya and greatly reduced its prosperity for a time. The devastation and loss of life among the male half of the population may have been so great as to have been the cause of the disappearance of charioteering in Libya, a previously national pastime. After the Roman victory in 146 BC over Carthage, the territory of Zeugei slowly lost its identity as a Libyan territory.

Strategy: This building represents the individual characteristics of a province. From the cities and villages, to the culture; from the landscape and ground, to the unique artifacts of old and new civilizations each province has a unique character that a faction would do best to heed if it wishes to utilize the resources to their best advantage. This building can offer a faction unique units depending on the Recruitment Buildings present, or can offer extended bonuses to certain Infrastructure Buildings. Additionally some provinces served as Sub-Capitals in history due to their location and traditional importance, some were economically orientated, others militarily or religiously. These provinces give additional bonuses depending on the combination of Civic Buildings you decide to build there. Finally, there can often be some small Public Order bonuses from unique buildings, monuments and natural features detailed in the description above or as separate buildings.

Province: Shardin et Korsim

This area includes some of the oldest phoenician and punic colonies, along with more recent additions inherited by the etruscans after the battle of Alalia.

After Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica represented perhaps the second most important colonial possession for the punics. Home of the once-thriving nuragic civilization of the bronze Age, these lands are a mix of civilized and wild, with fertile lands providing grain, olives and grapes in the south while the north produced mostly wax and herd animals. Bordering the mountains, the semi-barbaric remnants of the nuragics are an ever-present danger of raiding, requiring constant vigilance at the borders but also providing a steady supply of mercenaries in times of need.

Geography:The plains of Sardinia and Corsica consists of the most fertile and more colonized part of the province. In the south, fertile plains provide grain cultivated by imported lybian
slaves, while the hills produces olives and grapes to this day, providing a steady source of supplies.

Being one of the earliest punic colonizations, the native nuragics also provides a good source of pottery, while the local mines are known for their copper and lead, with some small amounts of silver. To the north and nearing the mountainous areas timber and cork are aplenty, while goat and sheep herds provides wool and meat. Corsica is also a important source of wax, being the main product of the island.

History: The first phoenician outposts are as old as Carthage itself, with the foundation of Nora, the regional capital, dated around the VIII-IX century BC. The stele of Nora is among the most ancient written documents in western mediterranean, referring to Tartessus (b-Tršš) and Sardinia itself (b-šrdn). Originally the land was dominated by the ancient nuragic civilization, which thrived between the XII and XIII centuries BC, going into a slow but steady decline after. It appears that the early characters of this civilization shared many similarities with the phoenician culture, making the initial relations quite friendly.

Between the V and VI century BC there was a shift towards expansionism in carthaginian
policies, which led them to expand in the nearby islands. The first magonid attempt was repelled by the still-powerful nuragic tribes after some initial success, and it is said that to avoid crucifiction Mago, the appointed general, took Carthage by storm with the remnants of his army and tried to instate a monarchy. This attempt was however short lived, and soon after the senatorial system was reinstated. Three following major campaigns allowed the carthaginians to progressively conquer the coastastal areas of Sardinia, starting with the modern sulcis area and then expanding towards northern areas. The battle of Alalia, dated in the mid V century BC also allowed the Carthaginians to expel the phocean greek from Corsica, giving them shared possession of the smaller island with the etruscans and allowing a much-tighter control of the thyrrenian sea.
This in turn enabled them to tighten the tin trade towards Sardinia, giving them another advantage towards the final colonization of one third of the island, firmly obtained by the time of the etruscan demise.

Progressing through the centuries a very high level of integration was abtained between punic and nuragic populations especially in southern Sardinia, with many of the Nuraghes (conical stone towers, originally used for observation and as fortifications) converted to religious site, while the semi-barbarized remnants of the independent natives kept control of the hilly areas. By the time of the punic wars the romans described the nuragics as a race mixed with the africans and worthless slaves (Sardus venales) as they were rebellious and often tried to kill their "owner" at the first chance.

Nora, the regional capital, would keep its importance until the early empire, and while the carthaginians kept attempting to recover the islands after loosing them between the first punic war and the mercenary uprising, this proved impossible despite the high point of the Hampsicoran rebellion, where a mixed punic and nuragic force was beaten by the romans. The punic influence towards the region would remain strong long after the roman conquest however, proved by the founding of punic inscriptions up to the end of the 1st century AD.

Strategy: This building represents the individual characteristics of a province. From the cities and villages, to the culture; from the landscape and ground, to the unique artifacts of old and new civilizations each province has a unique character that a faction would do best to heed if it wishes to utilize the resources to their best advantage. This building can offer a faction unique units depending on the Recruitment Buildings present, or can offer extended bonuses to certain Infrastructure Buildings. Additionally some provinces served as Sub-Capitals in history due to their location and traditional importance, some were economically orientated, others militarily or religiously. These provinces give additional bonuses depending on the combination of Civic Buildings you decide to build there. Finally, there can often be some small Public Order bonuses from unique buildings, monuments and natural features detailed in the description above or as separate buildings.

Province: Barbagia

Shophet, those are truly wild and barbaric lands, inhabited by proud and restless people! The mountainous areas of Corsica and Sardina are an impervious land, covered by thick forest and home to the last remnants of the nuragic civilization.

Tribes like the Balares, Ilienses and Korsi were a constant thorn in the side of the carthaginians first and the romans later on. Before the punic wars a system of fortifications was used to keep the areas under check, as the nuragics stubbornly tried to retake control of their native lands even after almost three hundred years of colonization.

Geography: Mountainous and covered by thick forests, this areas were the home of the last independent nuragic natives, who survived in the valleys and highlands dominated by them mostly through goat and sheep herding. The carsic geology of the areas led to mountains with several cave complexes and dolines, providing occasional and at times even permanent hiding places, like in the nuragic village of Tiscali, built literally inside a mountain. This provided and ideal territory for ambush tactics, which allowed the poorly equipped natives to repel many invasions and fight on for nearly 5 centuries. Herds, Timber and wax were the only produces of the area, while slaves were cheap but also of low value due to their historical rebelliousness.

History: Although far less prosper than the coastal areas the interior of Sardinia and Corsica was still inhabited by several nuragic tribes. With fewer resources at their disposal, the nuragic complexes tended to be smaller and simpler in construction, with later development being fortified enclosures not unlike the celtic oppidas. Often built in high places of difficult access like Orruinas in Sardinia and the Mt. Cinno site in corsica, those mountain nests were the ideal base for tribes living out of herding and
raiding, providing nearby highlands and shelters extremely difficult to locate and storm.

Historically the area experienced an increase in population after the punic campaigns of the V century BC, where the late nuragic tribes were driven off the more fertile lands. Being historically a line of defence, the mountains provided an excellent raiding base, forcing the punics to be constantly watchful and ultimately resulting in the development of the punic equivalent of a series of limes delimiting their area of influence. This situation was substantially unchanged until the end of the first punic war and the start of the mercenary uprising, where the carthaginians lost control of the islands. The unstable rule of the mercenaries, who tried initially unsuccessfully to defect to Rome led to the rise of a puno-nuragic native coalition who successfully started driving off the mercenaries.

The romans found corsica and sardinia initially as an extremely cheap sources of slaves, with Cato giving the appellative of "Sardus venales" due to the low prices of the slaves, which was also given by their rebellious spirit, gaining them epithets like "latruncoli mastruccati" and similar ones. By 237, with the end of the african uprising and the island de-facto independent, the romans accepted the renewed offers by the rebellious mercenaries and proceeded to annex the island despite punic opposition. Taking their policies further, Carthage was accused of preparing an invasion against Rome and further fined, leading to the undisputed loss of Sardinia and the start of a bitter resentment by the punics and especially the barcid clan. This later on led to the spanish campaign, ultimately leading to Hamilcar's and Hannibal's preparation and escalation towards the 2nd punic war.

In 215 BC a local Puno-nuragic noble called Hampsicora joined forces with several nuragic tribes and started an uprising after the battle of Cannae, appealing to Carthage for help. The subsequent battle of Cornus was however a loss for the carthaginians, and while nuragic resistance against the romans kept going on, it slowly became mostly a guerrilla campaign. The last large-scale revolt against the romans is dated around 174BC, possibly marking the real start of Roman colonization of the interior of Sardinia and Corsica

Strategy: This building represents the individual characteristics of a province. From the cities and villages, to the culture; from the landscape and ground, to the unique artifacts of old and new civilizations each province has a unique character that a faction would do best to heed if it wishes to utilize the resources to their best advantage. This building can offer a faction unique units depending on the Recruitment Buildings present, or can offer extended bonuses to certain Infrastructure Buildings. Additionally some provinces served as Sub-Capitals in history due to their location and traditional importance, some were economically orientated, others militarily or religiously. These provinces give additional bonuses depending on the combination of Civic Buildings you decide to build there. Finally, there can often be some small Public Order bonuses from unique buildings, monuments and natural features detailed in the description above or as separate buildings.


Mini-Preview: Map Changes in Europa Barbarorum





The campaign map for Europa Barbarorum 2 will feature numerous changes, both large and small, from that of Europa Barbarorum 1. These changes include borders, ownership, province names, different cities, different ports, and amalgamation, removal and addition of provinces. In this preview of Carthage we will highlight some of the changes that will be made to North Africa's provinces.

Provinces Lost: The province of Augila, like Cydamae from version 0.8, will be gone in EB2. It was decided that the importance of Augila did not equal that of the province set to replace it and Augila was amalgamated with Kyrenaia.

Provinces Created: The new province of Tiskat was created in Africa east of Numidia but west of Byzacena to provide the new Massylian Numidian faction with a starting province since the Massylians did not conquer Cirta until later on. Furthermore the capital of this new province, Tocai (modern day Dougga), contains a monument for the Massylian royal line suggesting that it was the seat of their power before they conquered Cirta. Being an inland province, Tiskat does not have a port. The province name, Tiskat, comes from a list of Carthaginian regional names from administration documents for the area around Tocai.

Province Name Changes: Dissatisfied with the Latin names for African provinces the team went in search of Punic names and found them. Several came from the list of regional names that Tiskat came from. These provided the new, or just slightly altered, names for the old provinces of Zeugitania, Atiqa and Byzacena, now Zeugei, Muxsi and Byzakion respectively. Other name changes included Mashiliem being called Maqom Hadesh, Mauretania Tingitana became Rus Lixus and Mauretania Massaesili became Numidia Massaesili. The original province names came from later Roman names for the provinces after a point when Numidia had been renamed Mauretania (Since the nation of Mauretania had been absorbed into the Roman Empire) and after Lixus, the most important west coast Phoenician colony, had declined under Roman administration, causing Tingis to rise to prominence.

City Changes: Reevaluation of the importance of certain cities has resulted in changes in certain cities. For example in Mauretania the capital has been changed from Sala to Volubilis, an important capital and later an administrative site under Rome. Sala has become the new port. In what was formerly Mashiliem Ippone has been replaced by the much more prominent Iol as capital.

Sardinia and Corsica: It was well known among the team as we started towards EB2 that there was something wrong with the representation of Sardinia and Corsica from EB1, mostly due to the control of the inland by the Nuragic tribes. However, given limited province slots it was unclear how this could be fixed. Eventually, thanks to the invaluable work of Zarax, the provinces were satisfactorily reworked. Now the province of Sardin et Korsim includes the coastal regions of the islands and some of the southern mainland of Sardinia. The new capital is at Nora while Karali has become the port. The interior of the islands is now the province of Barbagia with its capital at Orruinas.



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Semitic Settlements

Huge City
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Soldiers of Qart-Hadast

Libyan Skirmishers - Mitnag'him Lybim

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From Egypt to Mauretania live the tribes of coastal North Africa known as a whole to the Greeks as Lybians, after their word for Africa, Lybia. Their brave warriors fight with throwing darts, javelins and spears, and while poorly equipped for heavy combat they carry swords, a common weapon among Libyans. Their variety is represented by their shields, coming in different shapes and sizes and made from the skins of cows, goats, elephants and ostriches, as well as their appearance. Some examples include the Maceans who wear their hair as a crest and the Maxyans who shave the left side of their head. These men are swift and sure, but cannot stand in the face of heavily armed opponents, or the weight of cavalry. Lead them well general and they will win you battles!

Historically these men come from a vast variety of tribes; Adyrmachidae, Gilligammae, Asbystae, Cabalians, Aushisae, Ammonions, Nasamonions, Psylli, Garamantines, Lotophagi, Maceans, Machlyans, Atlantes, Atarantians, Auseans, Gyzantians, Maxyans, Zavecians and Masylies, to name but a few. Most Libyan tribes were remarked by ancient authors as sporting light skirmishers of some form. According to Herodotus Ammonion skirmishers were called darters. Libyan skirmishers were present in the war between Carthage and Agathocles in 310 BC as well as throughout the Punic wars, noted in Hannibal’s army as skirmishing in front of the army in the initial engagement alongside Balearic skirmishers and slingers.



Libyan Infantry - Lo'hamim Lybim

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Trained in the tactics of our ancestors and the Greeks these Libyan subjects are levied from the holdings of Qart-Hadast and the other colonies to defend their interests. Although as the fourth century came to its close and the third began the Libyans were still armed and trained in the traditional manner of Levant hoplites, more effort was put into their training and equipment, forming them into a Hellenistic style thureophoroi unit with thyreos shields, spears and the traditional javelins of the Libyan tribes. Later, following increasing influences from Celtic, Roman and Iberian contact, the Carthaginians would equip their Libyan levies with chain mail, improving their holding power. While these men are decent line infantry, and certainly cheaper and safer than placing important Canaanite citizens on the field, they will not hold up against the heavier infantry of other nations or their heavier cavalry.

Historically the Carthaginian citizenry realized early on that it was far more cost effective to employ large numbers of Libyan levies, and even to train those levies, than to utilize their own citizenry, or even that of the other Phoenician colonies. This lesson was driven home at the battle of the Krimissus in Sicily, against Timoleon, when approximately ten thousand citizen soldiers were destroyed and routed, including the 2,500 strong Sacred Band. Following this Libyan infantry forces remained the core of the Punic army in the wars with Syracuse and then Rome. They served as Hannibal best troops as well as the reliable centre of Hasdrubal’s line in Iberia. The policy of using Libyan soldiers only backfired once, when they rebelled in large numbers in the eponymous Libyan, or Mercenary, war after the First Punic War. In this instance they initially pushed back all Punic resistance until Carthage recalled Hamilcar and Hanno, the generals who had trained the best of them, allowing Carthage’s armies to finally emerge victorious.




Liby-Phoenician Hoplites - Dorkim Kan'anim

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These are the men of average wealth, merchants, craftsmen, artisans, masons and the like who can afford a full panoply of linothorax armour, a hoplon shield, a spear and a sword. They are not state formed or equipped and are merely those citizens of Canaanite colonies who, in times of crisis, have the equipment ready to engage in battle in defence of their home and livelihood. This is the old style and over time, as more subjects are equipped to fight by the Qarthadastim state, fewer colonials are prepared to do battle.

Historically, the Phoenicians did not refer to themselves as such. Though the Greeks called them Phoenicians and the Latins Punics, the Phoenicians referred to themselves by their city of origin, Tyre, Sidon, Byblos, and so on. Even citizens of colonies referred to themselves by either their colony home, or the name of the city that founded the colony. The only identifier Phoenicians might have used to refer to themselves as an overarching ethnicity would have been Canaanite, the name of the large ethnic group in Israel and Lebanon from which the Phoenicians emerged. This is ironic as Canaanite was originally a made up name, to describe the people that became known as the Canaanites, meaning merchants. Later Greek and Roman authors often discounted the colonies outside of Africa that Carthage controlled and referred to the colonies in Africa as Liby-Phoenician, even implying that they were inferior to Carthage because they had bred with native Libyans. Whether or not they did mix with Libyans, the Carthaginians viewed them as inferior because they were not Carthaginians, a simple, and very Phoenician, mentality. There is no evidence to suggest Carthage treated the Phoenician colonies in Africa any different from those elsewhere in Sardinia, Sicily, Malta, Baleares and Spain, except perhaps for the city of Utica, but it was a special case.

If any of these colonists were to organize as an infantry force they would have done so in the same manner, as a hoplite phalanx. Even the citizens of Carthage fought in the same way, in this militia force, when necessary. This happened in the late fourth century BC with the invasion of Agathocles, in the First Punic War with the invasion of Regulus, during the Mercenary War and in the Second Punic War with the invasion of Scipio Africanus. This only changed by the time of the Third Punic War when Carthage had surrendered most of its arms and armour to Rome before the war began and was forced to reequip quickly with mass produced swords, thureos shields and javelins. Phoenician hoplites supposedly accompanied Hannibal’s forces in Italy and may have been reequipped with chain mail, attributed by the Romans as an adaptation to their tactics and technology.



Liby-Phoenician Cavalry - Parasim Kan'anim

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These are men of somewhat more than average wealth who can afford a horse in addition to a panoply of sword, armour, spear and shield. These men may be politicians, wealthy land owners or extremely well off merchants as well as possibly belonging to an equestrian tradition in their home city. They are not state formed or equipped and are merely those citizens of Canaanite colonies who, in times of crisis, have the equipment ready to engage in battle in defence of their home and livelihood. This is the old style and over time, as more subjects are equipped to fight by the Qarthadastim state, fewer colonials are prepared to do battle.

Historically, the Phoenicians did not refer to themselves as such. Though the Greeks called them Phoenicians and the Latins Punics, the Phoenicians referred to themselves by their city of origin, Tyre, Sidon, Byblos, and so on. Even citizens of colonies referred to themselves by either their colony home, or the name of the city that founded the colony. The only identifier Phoenicians might have used to refer to themselves as an overarching ethnicity would have been Canaanite, the name of the large ethnic group in Israel and Lebanon from which the Phoenicians emerged. This is ironic as Canaanite was originally a made up name, to describe the people that became known as the Canaanites, meaning merchants. Later Greek and Roman authors often discounted the colonies outside of Africa that Carthage controlled and referred to the colonies in Africa as Liby-Phoenician, even implying that they were inferior to Carthage because they had bred with native Libyans. Whether or not they did mix with Libyans, the Carthaginians viewed them as inferior because they were not Carthaginians, a simple, and very Phoenician, mentality. There is no evidence to suggest Carthage treated the Phoenician colonies in Africa any different from those elsewhere in Sardinia, Sicily, Malta, Baleares and Spain, except perhaps for the city of Utica, but it was a special case.

If any of these colonists were to organize as a cavalry force they would have done so in the same manner, as a medium combat cavalry. Even the citizens of Carthage fought in the same way when necessary. Citizen cavalry performed admirably during the invasion of Africa by Regulus in the First Punic War as well as during the Mercenary War afterwards. Citizen cavalry from other colonies, noted as Liby-Phoenicians by later authors, joined Hasdrubal in Spain during the Second Punic under orders from Hannibal. It is most likely they were from African colonies as Hannibal notes they were brought to Spain to ensure tight bonds between African cities and Spanish cities. Cavalry deployed by the Sardinian rebel Hampsicora in the Second Punic War against the Romans to try and bring the Carthaginians back to Sardinia may have been Phoenician cavalry either formed from Puno-Nuraghic nobles on the island or sent by Carthage itself to help Hampsicora’s efforts.



Carthaginian Noble Cavalry - HaParasim HaB'hurim

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Members of the oldest and most prestigious families in Carthage, these men are better equipped, and better trained, than almost any other citizen soldiers among the colonies. These cavalry, armed with long lances and fine swords can ride down all but the toughest opponents. Their finely crafted armour from Italy, Iberia and Africa in bronze and iron make them all but invincible and their sturdy Iberian mounts, protected themselves with peytrals and chamfrons, will carry them unto their enemies doom!

Historically the number of Carthaginian citizenry who were regularly trained and prepared for war were few, though they did exist. Those of this group from the wealthier families, or who became independently wealthy, would have the means to equip themselves as cavalry above and beyond the regular citizen cavalry called together in times of need. These cavalry would typically be deployed where they could do the most good, such as on the right flank of the army, where the infantry division of the phalanx known as the Sacred Band was deployed. These elite cavalry were at some point incorrectly labelled as a mounted version of those picked phalanx troops and the misnomer stuck through the ages, building a legend upon itself including being the temple warriors of Astarte. There is another famous legend about the supposed mounted Sacred Band from later history wherein they are denied to Hannibal at Zama. This story is extremely circumspect, especially considering the illusion that is the mounted Sacred Band. Regardless, the story is intended to prove a point about the attitude of the anti-Barcid party in the Carthaginian council. That is to say that they did not support Hannibal, even at the threat of their own lives and would not support him in the least.



Sacred Band - Dorkim B'hurim

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Members of the oldest and most prestigious families in Carthage, these men are better equipped, and better trained, than almost any other citizen soldiers among the colonies. Fighting in the manner of our ancestors as a traditional Phalanx, these men, wealthy aristocrats all, are equipped with the most expensive and showy accoutrements available. These men have always formed the right flank of our citizen armies in times of need, but the wars of the last hundred years have demonstrated how precious Carthaginian citizens are. Should you choose, however, these men can be risked in battle for the betterment of Carthage.

Historically the Carthaginians were cautious of committing citizens troops to battle after the losses suffered against Timoleon and Agathocles. When they did commit citizen soldiers, the right flank of the phalanx was formed by the wealthy aristocrats and was referred to by the Greeks as a 'Sacred Band'. Later, this was attributed to a dedication to Baal, the great father god of the Phoenician/Canaanite pantheon. The early third century BC was the end of an era for these noble citizen soldiers. Though the citizens of Carthage were once encouraged to be soldiers, according to Aristotle, by wearing decorative armbands to signify the number of campaigns they had fought in, the losses in Sicily in 396 and 341, and the losses to Agathocles and the coup of Bomilkar from 311-307, led to the growing reluctance of Carthage to risk its citizens in war. Yet, with the Sacred Band still operating in 307 BC, it would not have been too late to revive the military traditions of Carthage.


Balearic Slingers - Qala'im Balearim

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Trained from a verly early age in the use of their various types of slings and projectiles, they have reached an extremelly rare proeficiency in long range skirmishing. Fast, due to their light equipment, and with much more precision and power than other slingers, they are ideal mercenaries to have in any army that can afford their services. Contrary to most light skirmishers, their experience can be used effectivelly to strike down any unorganized foes in hand-to-hand combat. As any light infantry, they are vulnerable to cavalry.

Historically, the Balearic Slingers became famous throughout the mediterranean world due to their increadible skill in battle. These skills prompted the Carthaginians and Romans to use them whenever they were able to do so. A good example of the skill that won them renow is Diodorus Siculus' chronicle of the Battle of Eknomos in 311BC: "But when Hamilcar saw that his men were being overpowered and that the Greeks in constantly increasing number were making their way into the camp, he brought up his slingers, who came from the Balearic Islands and numbered at least a thousand. By hurling a shower of great stones, they wounded many and even killed not a few of those who were attacking, and they shattered the defensive armour of most of them. For these men, who are accustomed to sling stones weighing a mina, contributed a great deal toward victory in battle, as they practised constantly with the sling since childhood. In this way they drove the Greeks from the camp and defeated them. Their equipment for fighting consists of three slings, and of these they keep one around the head, another around the belly, and the third in the hands. In the business of war they hurl much larger stones than do any other slingers, and with such force that the missile seems to have been shot, as it were, from a catapult; consequently, in their assaults upon walled cities, they strike the defenders on the battlements and disable them, and in pitched battles they crush both shields and helmets and every kind of protective armour. And they are so accurate in their aim that in the majority of cases they never miss the target before them. The reason for this is the continual practice which they get from childhood, in that their mothers compel them, while still young boys, to use the sling continually; for there is set up before them as a target a piece of bread fastened to a stake, and the novice is not permitted to eat until he has hit the bread, whereupon he takes it from his mother with her permission and devours it!!"



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Family Tree


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The Punic family tree was somewhat difficult to design as Carthage mixed emphasis on family lines (like in dynastic states) with emphasis on individual prowess and rising through the ranks like with Rome. Thus the family members of Carthage were a mix of actual lineages and displaced individuals who needed to be attached to other family members. There are also a lot of repeated names in Punic aristocracy resulting in a lot of confusion. Polybius was of great help in deciphering some of this, but not all. In addition the Carthaginians almost never recorded the names of important women and thus the names of all the women in the family tree had to be randomly chosen, based only on the knowledge that we know these men were married and had children. We hope the biographies below, which will appear in game, will help explain these characters, why they were chosen, what they did in history, and how they relate to each other.


Biographies of the Qarthadastim


Deceased Family Members:
Adherbal (86), Hanno (65) and Himilco (70) - The three generals who led the final push against Agathocles that drove him out of Africa and back to Sicily in the late fourth century BC. These generals were also likely important in the battles against Pyrrhus in Sicily. Though young to the command against Agathocles, it has been 50 years, and these generals now serve only as a link to create a stable family tree.

Eshmunkhilletz (59) - Known from the dedication inscription for the New Gate street in south Carthage, Eshmunkhilletz was the father of Adonibaal, the eponymous Suffete of Carthage at some point in the third century BC. Eshmunkhilletz serves as a useful deceased family member to help generate the tree.

Hannibal (60) - Hannibal was the father of Hanno, a negotiator for Carthage with Agrigentum and Syracuse. Hannibal is known only by his referral as Hanno's father.

Gisgo (54) - The eponymous father of Hannibal Gisgo, a commander for Carthage during the First Punic War. He is known only by his referral as Hannibal's father.

Living Family Members
Hanno the Elder (32) - Hanno the Elder was a Punic commander in the First Punic War. He brought relieving forces to Agrigentum in the early stages of the war, and, although he failed there, he later commanded the left wing at the battle of Ecnomus, to this day the largest naval battle ever.

Hanno the Great (10) - In 264 BC, the First Punic War began. Rome pushed the Carthaginians back to two cities in the far west of Sicily, Drepana and Lilibaeum. However, the Carthaginians controlled the sea, and the war had become a stalemate. Hanno was successful in African conquests, bringing wealth into the city's coffers. This earned him "the Great" as an appellation. However, Hamilcar Barca continued the Sicilian war as a guerilla, with some success. In 241 BC, the new Roman fleet beat the last Carthaginian ships.\n\nThe Carthaginian mercenaries returned to their homeland, expecting the pay promised them by Hamilcar. When they were not paid, they revolted. They captured the most important cities of Africa. Hanno, later joined by Barca, fought the mercenaries in a brutal war, which ended in 238 BC.\n\nCarthage was not big enough for Hamilcar and Hanno, but the city's fortunes were slowly restored, and there was money for pursuing two policies at once. Expansion was possible in two directions, Africa with Hanno and Iberia with Hamilcar. In 219 BC, Hamilcar's son Hannibal Barca was provoking a renewal of the war with Rome. Hanno had never believed in expensive military adventures outside Africa, and argued against the Second Punic War, but the Barcids won the discussion and war broke out. After the fall of Hannibal it was left to Hanno the Great to negotiate the peace.

Hamalcar (28) - Hamalcar was a Carthaginian general in the First Punic War. Following the defeat of Hanno the Elder at Agrigentum, Hamalcar took command in Sicily. After a long campaign in Sicily, including dozens of sieges, with varying success, Hamalcar commanded the center in the battle of Ecnomus, to this day the largest naval battle ever. Hamalcar was the father of two other Carthaginian commanders in the First Punic War, Hanno and Hannibal.

Hanno (12) - The son of Hamalcar, Commander in Sicily during much of the First Punic War, Hanno came into his own later in the war. It was he who conducted the infamous negotiations with Regulus in which Regulus demanded more than the people of Carthage could accept. Hanno turned him down and the war went on. Regulus was soundly defeated by the Carthaginians, eventually killed by them, and the Romans did not raid Africa again until the Second Punic War.

Hannibal (10) - The son of Hamalcar, Commander in Sicily for much of the First Punic War, and brother to the Hanno who conducted negotiations with Regulus, Hannibal was a far less renowned member of his family. Although a general of Carthage, noted as a Trierarch, and known as the closest friend of the First Punic War admiral Adherbal, Hannibal is not otherwise well known.

Adonibaal (43) - An inscription dedicating the completion of a new south bound road to Carthage's New Gate, sometime in the third century BC, makes note of the Suffetes of the year, Adonibaal and Shafat. In particular, Adonibaal was the Magistrate Suffete, meaning that he gave his name to the year, like the Eponymous Archons at Athens. He was the son of Eshmunkhilletz and the great grandson of Bodinelqart.

Shafat (40) - An inscription dedicating the completion of a new south bound road to Carthage's New Gate, sometime in the third century BC, makes note of the Suffetes of the year, Adonibaal and Shafat.

Hanno (24) - The First Punic War was reportedly begun when the city of Messana, under threat from Hiero of Syracuse, appealed to both Carthage and Rome for protection. Carthage reacted first and placed a garrison in Messana under their Sicilian commander. When the Romans finally reacted and arrived at the straits of Messana, the Punic commander is alleged to have told the Romans that they would not so much as wash their hands in the sea. There are different versions of how the Romans crossed the straits. Some say that the commander snuck across in the night, others that they defeated the Punic fleet and crossed in force. In either case, the Romans were welcomed with open arms by the pro-Roman party in Messana, who also handed over the Punic commander. While details once again differ on the manner of the commander's death, all agree that he died at the hands of Mammertines he had come to protect. The most commonly accepted name of this commander is Hanno.

Bostar (18) - Although he may have been the Bostar who served under Hamalcar in Sicily, Bostar is first, and best, known for being the governor of Sardinia during the Mercenary Revolt, also known as Truceless War. He was seized and murdered by the mercenary garrison of the island before they offered it to the Romans.

Himilco (16) - Himilco was the commander of Lilibeo during the long siege it was put under in the latter half of the First Punic War. He oversaw the daring blockade runs of Hannibal Rhodos, as well as solving potential rebellion among his mercenaries after it was pointed out by Alexon the Achaean. An inspiring and respected governor and commander, Himilco most likely survived the First Punic War, though no mention of him is made afterwards.

Hanno (29) - Son of Hannibal and father of Hasdrubal, Hanno negotiated alliances with both Agrigentum and Syracuse at the outbreak of the First Punic War. When the alliances turned sour, it seems Hanno was forced into a state of retirement. He may have returned to the command in Sardinia in 258, though the Hanno who fought the Roman raids there is not clearly identified.

Hasdrubal (11) - Son of Hanno and grandson of Hannibal, Hasdrubal was given a command in Sicily from 255-251 and elected as a general. The command turned out to be a disaster for him, suffering multiple defeats, and he may have been executed for his failure, though the certainty of that fate is unclear.

Hannibal Gisgo (17) - Son of Gisgo and father of another Hannibal, Hannibal Gisgo is often referred to as Gisgo for short. Hannibal commanded the garrison at Agrigentum in 261. Following the failed attempt to break the Roman lines by the relieving forces under Hanno the Elder, Hannibal snuck out of Agrigentum in the night with his men, leaving the inhabitants of Agrigentum to the sword and chain of the Romans. Later, he embarked on an ambitious plan to raid the coast of Italy to interrupt Roman supplies and disrupt their homeland. He was the only general to attempt this until much later in the war when the concept was taken up by none other than Hamilcar Barca. At the Straits of Messina, he captured consul Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Asina by sending out Boodes in command of a small force. Hannibal's efforts were disrupted when he engaged the Romans in the naval battle of Mylae and was the first to face the new Roman corvus. Caught unprepared by this new boarding device, Gisgo was defeated. Forced into an inlet on the coast of Sardinia, surrounded by Romans with no visible path to escape, he was executed by his own men.

Hannibal (1) - Son of Hannibal Gisgo and grandson of Gisgo, Hannibal continued the family tradition of serving as a general in the Carthaginian army. He served in the tail end of the First Punic War.

Hannibal (30) - The commander of the Carthaginian naval squadron at Lipari at the onset of the First Punic War, Hannibal was responsible for both convincing the Mammertines at Messana to accept a Punic garrison, and for convincing the forces of Syracuse to withdraw from their advance on Messana. He has been proposed as the potential father of Hamalcar Barca, father of the famous Hannibal Barca. The reason for this is based on the theory that sons would be named after their father's father in a family line. Although this seems to be the case less often than the proposers of the theory seem to indicate, it is true that Hamalcar Barca first takes over his command at the Lipari islands when he enters the war, the place where Hannibal commanded, and that for age and details presented, Hannibal of Lipari is the best option among the available Hannibals.

Hamalcar Barca (3) - In the First Punic War in 247, he took over Carthaginian command of Sicily from Carthalo after it had almost completely fallen into Roman hands, and landed on the northwest shore (near modern-day Palermo) with a small mercenary force (including Gauls), seized Mount Erote, and held it for three years against all odds. He expanded his position and carried out audacious raids as far as the coast of southern Italy. Six years after his arrival, he was unbeaten, but his land victories were irrelevant after the Roman victory of Catulus over Hanno at sea in 241 BC. Hamilcar left Sicily on his own terms, refusing Roman demands for surrender. He resigned his command to Gisco, disgusted with Hanno and the political situation.\nHis returning veterans were denied pay by the assembly, and began the bloody Mercenary War. Hanno failed to quell them, after which Hamilcar was given command. He at first treated his captives leniently, hoping to entice the insurgents to his side, but after the rebel leaders executed Gisco and their prisoners, he retaliated against his captives.
Hamilcar finally put down the rebellion in 237 BC, having massacred thousands of rebels in the process. During this time, Rome annexed Sardinia.\nAfter the war, events are not clear. Hamilcar was likely involved in political struggles with the aristocracy, after which he invaded Hispania on his own, figuring the people would support his actions later. This conquest would somewhat replace the loss of Sicily and Sardinia, as well as give a starting point for a future invasion of Rome. His young son Hannibal accompanied him, and Hamilcar died bravely in battle there about 229 BC, fighting the Vettones.\nHe seems to have had a generous spirit, but, like many other great men, he did not want his freedom constrained by lesser men.

Bomilkar (17) - Bomilkar was elected Shophet in 260 BC. Otherwise he is best known as the father of Hanno, a cavalry commander in Hannibal Barca's army in the Second Punic War. Bomilkar was married to one of Hannibal's three elder sisters, one of Hamalcar's daughters, thus making him Hannibal's uncle and making Hanno Hannibal's nephew.

Gisco (16) - Known only for his progeny, Gisco was the father of Hasdrubal, the commander of Carthage's forces in Iberia in the Second Punic War. Hasdrubal Gisco was eventually defeated by Scipio, later Africanus, sealing the fate of Carthage's interests in Spain.

Agents, Admirals and Ancilliaries:
Boodes (27) - Diplomat - Boodes was a member of the Inner Council of Carthage's Senate during the First Punic War. He commanded a detachment under Hannibal Gisgo in a naval battle against Rome where he captured Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio, the humiliating defeat thereafter causing him to be named 'Asina', or Wild Ass.

Hannibal Rhodos (16) - Spy - During the lengthy siege of Lilibeo in the First Punic War, the Romans created a blockade to prevent the city from receiving reinforcements, supplies, or news by ship. That was until a daring Carthaginian named Hannibal, and nicknamed Rhodos for his naval skill, ran the blockade to deliver supplies and news to the city of Lilibeo. For weeks Hannibal ran the blockade, often pausing his faster ship to let the Romans catch up before darting off again. He successfully carried news back and forth and ran supplies to Lilibeo as well as lifting the spirits of the defenders. Like all good things, Hannibal's blockade runs came to an end when the Romans created an artificial sandbar overnight, causing Hannibal's ship to run aground, thereafter to be boarded and plundered by the Romans.

Mago (45) - Admiral - Mago was the admiral who commanded the Carthaginian fleet against Pyrrhus of Epirus, eventually defeating him and claiming his flagship, a septireme known as the Hepteres. Mago later led his fleet on a diplomatic envoy to Rome in 274/273. When the Carthaginian fleet appeared off the coast of Italy by Taras in 272 to see if the Romans required aid, the fleet was likely still led by Mago.

Adherbal (19) - Admiral - During the First Punic War the Carthaginians used a series of important ports to launch their fleet from, these included Lipari, Lilibeo and Drepana. Adherbal commanded the Punic fleet at Drepana together with Carthalo. He was an accomplished admiral who engaged the Roman fleet most notably at Drepana in 249. Giving a stirring oratory, Adherbal encouraged his mercenaries, adding them to the regular compliment of marines on his ships, then promised them additional pay and rewards if they won him a victory, before sailing out to meet the Romans. Adherbal outmaneuvered consul Pulcher's disorganised line and sunk almost all his ships. It was seven years before they rebuilt their fleet.\nPulcher escaped, but was exiled on charges of sacrilege (during the prebattle augury, he had thrown his misbehaving chicken overboard), though he escaped conviction on charges of treason.\nAdherbal died in 230 BC.

Carthalo (18) - Admiral - Carthalo was a Carthaginian admiral who served under Adherbal at Drepana. He performed independently in two actions, both victorious, against the Romans which earned him a place in history. In the first he trapped a Roman fleet in bad weather against the southern coast of Sicily, causing most of the fleet to be sunk. In the second he reportedly briefly retook Agrigentum from the Romans.

Gesco - Ancilliary - Although Gesco was a commander at Lilibeo at the end of the First Punic War, he is better known for his fate suffered shortly thereafter at the onset of the Truceless War. Gesco was placed in charge of distributing the much delayed pay to the mercenaries and other soldiers brought home from Sicily. Although he advised that they be brought home in small groups, the government ignored him and brough them all over at once. The mercenaries grew restless with waiting through the process of being paid and began to stirred up by a Libyan named Mathos. When the mercenaries brought their complaints to Gesco, he responded in a moment of frustration that if they wanted their money they should ask their leader Mathos. The mercenaries grew angry and took Gesco prisoner, escalating to a full scale revolt. Gesco was later killed as an example of the ends the mercenaries were willing to go to to have their demands met. He was the first victim of the Truceless War.

Alexon the Achaean - Ancilliary - During the Lengthy siege of Lilibeo in the First Punic War, Alexon was one of the mercenary commanders in the Carthaginian garrison. When he became aware of a plot by several of the mercenary commanders to defect to the Romans, he informed the Carthaginian governor of the city, Himilco, who orchestrated with Alexon to have the ringleaders removed. Alexon had apparently performed a similar duty for Syracuse before the First Punic War when some of their mercenaries had wanted to rebel.

Bodmelqart - Ancilliary - Bodmelqart, brother of Yehawwielon, son of Baalhanno, son of Bodmelqart, was the chief engineer of public highways in Carthage in the third century BC.

Yehawwielon - Ancilliary - Yehawwielon, brother of Bodmelqart, son of Baalhanno, son of Bodmelqart, was quarrier in Carthage in the third century BC.

Philinus of Agrigentum - Ancilliary - Philinus of Agrigentum lived during the First Punic War and wrote its history from a pro-Cathaginian standpoint. His writings were used as a source by Polybius for his description of the First Punic War. Although Polybius uses Philinus' writings he does also accuse him of being biased and inconsistent. Philinus maintained that the initial Roman intervention in Sicily at the start of the First Punic War violated a treaty between Rome and Carthage which recognized Roman sovereignty on the Italian peninsula and Carthaginian control in Sicily.


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In this preview, released previously by Twitter, we introduce the one of the core gameplay mechanics of Europa Barbarorum II. This exciting new feature builds upon the Government system from Europa Barbarorum I, but goes much, much further. It introduces individualised Government buildings for each faction, and uses relationships with other buildings to create a detailed, complex and ultimately rewarding experience that throws the player into the reality of a divided and politically active province and its people. The enemy is no longer simply outside your borders, now you will need to deal with those who would seek to undermine you from within.

Click the Image above.


Following from the preview of the Authority buildings and details on how provinces will be represented in Europa Barbarorum II, and the preview of Roman government types, we are proud to present the next of many faction-specific previews of this Authority system. As the Qarthadastimi you will have the ability to expand your Empire as you see fit; will you focus on creating economic partners along the shores of the rich Mediterranean, or will you focus on expanding your military might through the subjugation of local political powers and the appropriation of their military traditions and manpower? In Europa Barbaroum II the choice is yours.

Listed below are all the Central Authority buildings available to the Qarthadastim faction in EB2. The buildings take their names from the political relationship that a region's people have to Qart-Hadast.

Authority: Military Control


The province, now occupied with the military forces of the great Qart-Hadast and her allies, must now be placed under a military control; ruled directly by a general and his staff. This control of the province is only meant to be temporary, but will ensure that the province will not revolt from under his command so soon after the conquest.Under the leadership of a powerful conquerer the people of this province, now subjugated by the armies of Qart-Hadast and freed from their old oppressors, will not risk the threat of further violence and bloodshed by challanging his authority here. Be wary, however, for a disloyal general given the command of such a large area may well be tempted to call himself King and betray the trust of his rightful leaders, calling the land and its people his own. Make sure the control of this province, then, lies in only the most trusted general, loyal to the city and ideal of Qart-Hadast; not to his own ambition.


HISTORY: Like most ancient nations the first act of the Carthaginians upon conquest of new territory would be to institute a garrison led by a commander who would take temporary charge of governing the new territory until a better administrative system could be established. The best known examples of this for the Carthaginians were the cities conquered during the second Punic War. Whenever Hannibal took a city by force he would leave behind a strong garrison and move on, unable to take the time to set up a more complex and lasting system of government due to the constant war of attrition with the Roman forces.

STRATEGY: This building represents the political policies and control infrastructure that your faction maintains in the area of the province that it directly controls and influences, and also what relationship this area has with your faction. This building, therefore, works with the AUTHORITY POLICY BUILDING to represent the level of control your faction has over the entire province. Within the sphere of direct influence, your faction has the power and ability to control the form of government and political structure that the populace will adopt. This may represent either your faction making proactive choices on the type of government, or it may represent your faction allowing the province to be controlled in manner determined by the native powers of the province (and is thus not explicity defined within the building description); in either case the building also represents the diplomatic relationship between the province and your faction's power-base, and the province's place within the political web of your empire.

This level of the building is the precursor level and represents the preliminary military occupation of province within the area of your direct influence. It is preferable for you to upgrade this to a more permanent form of government as this adversely affects the effectiveness of the AUTHORITY POLICY BUILDING. A GENERAL must be stationed here during the period of military occupation and is essentially de facto ruler of this province. Beware of leaving GENERALS with low LOYALTY in such a powerful position as they may see better oppurtunities and greater fortunes as autonomous rulers rather than as subjects of your faction.


Military Control has been established; the General stationed here essentially has de facto control over the province and you must be careful that this power doesn't go to his head.


Authority: Allied Kingdom


A people, ruled in fear by a despot, will show great favour to those willing to war on their behalf. Once conquered and defeated, a people willing to except the close friendship of Qart-Hadast will be well rewarded with autonomous rulership under a governance more suited to their own traditions and society. The city of Qart-Hadast's policy here is not to impose their will into shaping the government of these new allies, but instead the local political classes are encouraged to rule their province according to their own traditions, with little to no interference from Qart-Hadast's own council or government traditions.

These Allied Kingdoms, while not under the direct control of Qart-Hadast, do owe much to their new allies and the diplomatic ties and relations fall heavily in the favour of the great city. Such a policy of handing over rule of a newly conquered province holds many benefits for Qart-Hadast and in times of few resources can help expand her influence without bleeding her treasuries dry. Extending internal markets into these areas is a simple matter, and trade will boom under the new found relationships between these two states. Furthermore, the military assistance to armies of Qart-Hadast from these new founded partners can widen their tactical strengths and lessen their tactical weaknesses.

Be wary, however, of the man who rises to lead this Allied Kingdom of Qart-Hadast; a man in such a position, particularly if surrounded by powerful and ambitious men, may forget himself and his loyalty and seek to pursue a state of affairs free from those who had shown him mercy.

HISTORY: Many of the nations and territories aquired by Carthage were not conquered through force, but instead had offered their territory to Carthage in exchange for protection from their various enemies. Most of these allied states were Phoenician because of the special privileges offered to other Phoenician colonies and the role Carthage had taken on as defender of the colonies. However, on a number of occaisions other peoples offered their lands and services to Carthage and were equally taken. The best known examples of this are the Balearic Isles and Messana. In the case of Messana the populace feared that requesting Punic aid would place them under direct control of the Punic government and they would lose their freedom and autonomy. Because of this many Mammertines cast out the Punic garrison and allowed Rome access to their city. Ironically this action would cause them to be absorbed almost completely into the Roman Republic where they would fade into history.

Other examples of allied nations include the many cities and tribes which went over to Hannibal in the second Punic War. Unlike those towns and cities conquered by Hannibal, these people were free allies of the Punic state.

STRATEGY: This building represents the political policies and control infrastructure that your faction maintains in the area of the province that it directly controls and influences, and also what relationship this area has with your faction. This building, therefore, works with the PROVINCIAL AUTHORITY BUILDING to represent the level of control your faction has over the entire province. Within the sphere of direct influence, your faction has the power and ability to control the form of government and political structure that the populace will adopt. This may represent either your faction making proactive choices on the type of government, or it may represent your faction allowing the province to be controlled in manner determined by the native powers of the province (and is thus not explicity defined within the building description); in either case the building also represents the diplomatic relationship between the province and your faction's power-base, and the province's place within the political web of your empire.

This level of the building represents the development of an alliance between existing power-elites in the province and your own faction. This alliance maintains pre-existing social and political structures, and does not define the nature of the internal governmental hierarchy, which will largely conform with the established and traditional forms of government in the region. The alliance, however, does define the relationship between your faction and this semi-autonomous, conquered state; this is not an agreement of equals, but rather a relationship forced upon a vanquished power and so, while it may be a treaty written in your favour, you should be wary of those ALLIED KINGDOMS that grow too powerful or those controlled by a ruler that is somewhat lacking in LOYALTY and common sense.


An Allied Kingdom has been established; an understanding has been founded between the dominant power-elites of this province and your own faction. Be wary of the region becoming too powerful or being controlled by a General with more guts than sense, as you may find your ally has become an enemy too close for comfort.


Authority: Military Administration


A conquered people sometimes do not realise that they are conquered. In these circumstances a firm grip upon the province can only be achieved through a permanent military administration over the province. This is a longer term solution than Military Control: an administrative structure able to manage the affairs of a province and headed by a General of suitable acumen and loyalty will help secure the province amongst the possessions of Qart-Hadast. To support this administration, a series of garrisons and forts are established in the regions under Qart-Hadast's control and occupied with mercenary soldiers. These forts serve as defensive structures and statements of authority for Qart-Hadast's military in the province.

This Military Administration, while long-term, does not seek to integrate the province fully into the Ptolemaic empire: it would not force locals to take up the mantle of their new rulers; to assume dynastic names for people or settlements. Because of the requirment of large garrisons of mercenary soldiers there are some significant economic penalties, but in times of need when war is afoot upon the land these garrisons can quickly assemble into a fighting force.

HISTORY:In a few cases the use of a temporary military occupation and control of a territory needed to be extended for any of a number of reasons. The chief among these was the unrest of the populace and the danger offered by enemies bordering the new territory. Such a case was very common in the conquest of African territories where the peoples beyond the coast were semi-nomadic and unsettled, casting their lifestyle in contrast of the one that the Carthaginians supported. There was also the constant danger of enemy forces lying just beyond the borders of the province waiting to strike. The combination of these factors resulted in a continued military presence and control with a large number of small fortresses and increased garrisons.

STRATEGY: This building represents the political policies and control infrastructure that your faction maintains in the area of the province that it directly controls and influences, and also what relationship this area has with your faction. This building, therefore, works with the PROVINCIAL AUTHORITY BUILDING to represent the level of control your faction has over the entire province. Within the sphere of direct influence, your faction has the power and ability to control the form of government and political structure that the populace will adopt. This may represent either your faction making proactive choices on the type of government, or it may represent your faction allowing the province to be controlled in manner determined by the native powers of the province (and is thus not explicity defined within the building description); in either case the building also represents the diplomatic relationship between the province and your faction's power-base, and the province's place within the political web of your empire.

This level of the building represents a more long-term solution for the province. Best used in provinces where success is key, but survival is not. There is no limit to where these can be founded and they are suitable in all areas where a long-term solution is required but where simplicity and speed is of essence. Because standing garrisons of mercenary soldiers are required, there are significant economic penalties that will lessen the taxes that can be raised here. But with a network of forts being maintained and manned there is men enough to aid in the case of an attack upon the settlement or province.


A Military Administration has been established; forts and settlements have been garrisoned in the regions under Qart-Hadast control.


Authority: Native Administration


Where a province needs more direct control than an alliance, but also needs time to adjust to the new Phoenician rulers of Qart-Hadast, it can be best to leave the general administration to local political elites, who can be supervised by Phoenician and Liby-Phoenician, but still maintain some level of autonomy from outside rule. By rewarding local nobility who are willing to support the Qarthadastim empire and penalising those who are not as forthcoming in their support, control can be maintained and authority extended throughout the province by relying on the traditional ruling classes and their modes of governance.

This increased authority in the province can heavily influence the land that can be used for the purposes of colonisation along the rich coast-lines, and will prove important for the purposes of extending and developing the infrastructures of core industries in the province.

An Autonomous Native Administration, while long term, is not a policy that seeks to fully integrate the province into empire of Qart-Hadast. To do so will require the development of rich trading colonies along available coast-lines and the establishment of large city-settlements capable of supporting large numbers of Liby-Phoenician settlers. These developments will allow the province to thrive as a trading colony, sending its money home to the treasuries of its great mother-city. Where trading colonies are not suitable, Carthaginian control is best kep either in the hands of the military or handed over to the native ruling elite either as an Allied Kingdom or as largely autonomous rulers supervised by Phoenician and Liby-Phoenician agents.

HISTORY: In Iberia and Africa it was common of the Qarthadastim to play various rulers against each other, supporting the strongest and most loyal to Carthage in their rule over any given territory. This was much more common in Iberia where a system of marriages and supporting the right nobles and lords allowed for an administrative system over conquered and previously hostile people rather quickly. This system was much like a militarized and conquered version of their Allied Kingdoms. It was, however, prone to being torn apart by an intelligent enemy. Scipio Africanus was expert at turning these situations around by supporting different lords, treating the locals with a great deal of respect and honour, and by offering better deals to the subserviant people where possible.

STRATEGY: This building represents the political policies and control infrastructure that your faction maintains in the area of the province that it directly controls and influences, and also what relationship this area has with your faction. This building, therefore, works with the PROVINCIAL AUTHORITY BUILDING to represent the level of control your faction has over the entire province. Within the sphere of direct influence, your faction has the power and ability to control the form of government and political structure that the populace will adopt. This may represent either your faction making proactive choices on the type of government, or it may represent your faction allowing the province to be controlled in manner determined by the native powers of the province (and is thus not explicity defined within the building description); in either case the building also represents the diplomatic relationship between the province and your faction's power-base, and the province's place within the political web of your empire.

This level represents a policy of allowing the local rulers some semblence of power without completely handing over the run of the province to them. There is some acceptance of Carthaginian adminstrative influence and small colonies may well be accepted in some of the coastal regions (if possible). They are most desirable in recently conquered provinces that lie within heavily contested areas of control or strategically important areas of interest for the Carthaginian Empire. Because of the lack of integration into the Carthaginian Empire, realistic recruitment must come from local troops and will be mostly suitable for garrison duty. Small TRADING COLONIES may well offer some heavier infantry or light cavalry, but they will be few in number unless you seek to expand the number of merchant-settlers here.


An Autonomous Native Adminstration has been established; local ruling traditions have largely remained the same, though some Qarthadastim practices have been accepted. Administration of the province has largely fallen to the traditional elites of the province, though some Liby-Phoenician agents for Qart-Hadast have found a place here.


Authority: Colony Administration


Qart-Hadast's greatest assets are the web of trading colonies throughout the mediterranean and beyond. These settlements of Pheonician and Liby-Phoenician merchants are the cornerstones of the great trading empire that was, is and will be Qart-Hadast's. Their control by Qart-Hadast is of the utmost importance, as the control of trade is the control of great fortunes, and any sword, as the maxim goes, can be turned aside with a gold coin. Thus, for Qart-Hadast and her allies, the control of a colony is the control of the province. By centering the governance of a province in the coastal port settlements that are home to the powerful merchant-settlers, Carthage makes it difficult to fully govern a province, but such considerations are not so important for them. The wealth that flows through these settlements can be turned to extending the authority by bribing local leaders and the traditional ruling classes, however full control is generally too expensive to maintain to warrant consideration.

In these Allied Colonies, control of the province has been turned over to the merchant-settlers themselves, with very little direct interference from Qart-Hadast herself. As long as trade flows from the ports of these colonies and military aid is forthcoming in times of emergency, there is little need to get aggressively involved with the governance of these settlements of the province. Generally the colony is controlled by similar methods as would be found in Carthage as the colonies are generally populated with Phoenicians or Liby-Phoenicians and draw upon the old, original Phoenician colonies as their inspiration (though native modes of government also have some influence). These alliances, based as they are on mutual trade and wealth, generally have a greater strength than just the simple relationships between Qart-Hadast and Allied Kingdoms, so there is little risk of the colony and its province forsaking their part in the Carthaginian Empire.

Large colonies in particular are well suited to be Allied Colonies as they can generally defend themselves when threatened and have the internal infrastructure to support complex civil administrations without aid from Qart-Hadast herself. But even small colonies can benefit from being an Allied Colony, though they may be more inclined to call on military support when attacked by an aggressive neighbour.

HISTORY: One of the most common forms of adminstration in the Carthaginian empire was that of allied colonial states. This was due to the very nature under which the Carthaginian empire had emerged. When founded, the city of Qart-Hadast had been as subserviant to the local populace trading with them and paying land dues to satisfy them. This was common of Phoenicians in general, being a race predisposed to passive resolutions. However when the Sicilian colonies were threatened by Hellenic invasion the Carthaginians threw off their land tax and set themselves up as saviours of the colonies. This view brought them to the aid of colonies in West Africa, Middle Africa, Sicily, Sardinia and Spain. While some of these colonies were directly governed at a later state, most were left as autonomous allied colonies.

STRATEGY: This building represents the political policies and control infrastructure that your faction maintains in the area of the province that it directly controls and influences, and also what relationship this area has with your faction. This building, therefore, works with the PROVINCIAL AUTHORITY BUILDING to represent the level of control your faction has over the entire province. Within the sphere of direct influence, your faction has the power and ability to control the form of government and political structure that the populace will adopt. This may represent either your faction making proactive choices on the type of government, or it may represent your faction allowing the province to be controlled in manner determined by the native powers of the province (and is thus not explicity defined within the building description); in either case the building also represents the diplomatic relationship between the province and your faction's power-base, and the province's place within the political web of your empire.

This level represents the option of handing over governance of a province's trading colonies to their settlers. This tends to appease the individual colonies when they grow large enough to actively seek independence within the empire of Qart-Hadast. Because the administration is not necessarily centralised in the province it can be difficult to fully govern every region, however the wealth that these colonies bring to the ruling classes can help persuade ALLIED STATES to except more authority from these TRADING COLONIES. Extension of authority, then can be achieved, though does cost money under these circumstances.


An Allied Colony has been established; a large enough of colony will make itself suitable for governance by its own people as it will be able to spread its influence through trade and mercenary might.


Authority: Supervised Colony Administration


Qart-Hadast's greatest assets are the web of trading colonies throughout the mediterranean and beyond. These settlements of Pheonician and Liby-Phoenician merchants are the cornerstones of the great trading empire that was, is and will be Qart-Hadast's. Their control by Qart-Hadast is of the utmost importance, as the control of trade is the control of great fortunes, and any sword, as the maxim goes, can be turned aside with a gold coin. Thus, for Qart-Hadast and her allies, the control of a colony is the control of the province. By centering the governance of a province in the coastal port settlements that are home to the powerful merchant-settlers, Carthage makes it difficult to fully govern a province, but such considerations are not so important for them. The wealth that flows through these settlements can be turned to extending the authority by bribing local leaders and the traditional ruling classes, however full control is generally too expensive to maintain to warrant consideration.

In these Governed Colonies a single representative represents the wishes and desires of the citizens of Qart-Hadast. This can make him unpopular, particular in large and capable colonies with well established cities under their control. In these circumstances the Phoenician or Liby-Phoenician colonists may begin to demand autonomy and self-rule and it may well be adviced for the central control of a Governed Colony to be lessened to appease these agitators: an autonomous allied colony is preferable to a rebellious one. When a colony begins to grow too large it is best to look to giving into some of their demands to stave off outright revolt.

HISTORY: Wherever possible Punic control over their colonies was through a local governor supported by Liby-Phoenician settlers and any native Phoenician populations. This was only possible in instances where there was a significant population of loyal Phoenician or Liby-Phoenician settlers to support the administration. This type of government was surprisingly uncommon as most Phoenician colonies were autonomous allies and the Liby-Phoenician colonies had in a sense only just started to 'kick-off'. During the First Punic War a particular governor of Sardinia is mentioned, a man named Bostar. He would later die at the hands of his mercenary soldiers when they joined the revolt begun by their comrades in North Africa. The loyal population desired a return to Phoenician admimistration but the mercenaries brought in the Roman army which took over the colony and, eventually, the whole isle.

STRATEGY: This building represents the political policies and control infrastructure that your faction maintains in the area of the province that it directly controls and influences, and also what relationship this area has with your faction. This building, therefore, works with the PROVINCIAL AUTHORITY BUILDING to represent the level of control your faction has over the entire province. Within the sphere of direct influence, your faction has the power and ability to control the form of government and political structure that the populace will adopt. This may represent either your faction making proactive choices on the type of government, or it may represent your faction allowing the province to be controlled in manner determined by the native powers of the province (and is thus not explicity defined within the building description); in either case the building also represents the diplomatic relationship between the province and your faction's power-base, and the province's place within the political web of your empire.

This level represents the option of directly governing a province through its trading colonies, usually those established by the faction. Because the administration is not necessarily centralised in the province it can be difficult to fully govern every region, however the wealth that these colonies bring to the ruling classes can help persuade ALLIED STATES to except more authority from these TRADING COLONIES. Extension of authority, then can be achieved, though does cost money under these circumstances. As a colony grows it will tend to seek greater autonomoy for itself and its citizens. While it is small it won't demand too much as the protection of Qart-Hadast's armies are necessary for its survival in a sometimes hostile world, but as it grows and becomes more capable of looking after itself it will begin to demand certain rights, threatening a cut in trade and military assistance and eventually revolt and rebellion. To resolve this conflict, you can either limit the growth of the colony and in particular the POLIS building or give in to their demands and turn the province into an ALLIED COLONY.


A Governed Colony has been established; a large enough of colony will make itself suitable for governance by Qart-Hadast directly as it will be able to spread its influence through trade and mercenary might.


Authority: Council Administration


Could anything be more beautiful than that great, white city of Qart-Hadast. Ruled by the two elected Sufetes and the council of elders, the city has survived great trials and rightfully ruled vast lands and administrated for many peoples of many creeds and codes. Qart-Hadast is their home and their jeweled crown; the other Phoenician settlements spread thinly across the seas are largely autonomous, though they look to Qart-Hadast as a ship looks to a lighthouse, for direction and safety. These colonies are only indirectly controlled, either through alliances drawn freely or governed by a representative of the city of Qart-Hadast. In Africa, however, things are different. Libyan colonisation of the interior regions of Phoenician controlled provinces have so far proved successful, and Qart-Hadast's province is itself fully governed by the council. Upon the strengths of these agricultural colonies, African expansion has become more and more desirable, and the council and its Sufetes now how to expand these holdings securely, by bringing them under the Council's direct administration, just like Qart-Hadast.

A province, adminstrated by the Council of Qart-Hadast will find its fortunes rise and its authority, if not equal, then approach the prestige of Qart-Hadast herself. To be nominated so the colony must show itself poweful enough to extend its authority throughout the province entirely; governing all but the most far-flung reaches of their lands.

Were Qart-Hadast to fall to the most foul of enemies, a Council Administrated province would be able to offer a safe haven to its council until such a time that they could be returned to their seat of power. If no other Council Administrated province exists then the council will be destroyed and be unable to restore themselves to power, even if Qart-Hadast once more lies in the hands of Phoenician citizens.

HISTORY: At the heart of the Carthaginian empire lay their city of Qart-Hadast, ruled over by the council with their two elected Sufetes and their inner council of elders. This administrative system had served to prevent civil war, largely, and to successfully rule and make decisions for the Carthaginian people for almost the whole of the city's history. For the most part this adminstration only indirectly affected the various provinces of the empire, but in Africa they could achieve a greater degree of control if only due to their proximity. It is possible that this is why many council members favoured African expansion over Iberian. Even Utiqa, after it had betrayed Carthage, was placed under more direct governorship than before.

STRATEGY: This building represents the political policies and control infrastructure that your faction maintains in the area of the province that it directly controls and influences, and also what relationship this area has with your faction. This building, therefore, works with the PROVINCIAL AUTHORITY BUILDING to represent the level of control your faction has over the entire province. Within the sphere of direct influence, your faction has the power and ability to control the form of government and political structure that the populace will adopt. This may represent either your faction making proactive choices on the type of government, or it may represent your faction allowing the province to be controlled in manner determined by the native powers of the province (and is thus not explicity defined within the building description); in either case the building also represents the diplomatic relationship between the province and your faction's power-base, and the province's place within the political web of your empire.

This level represents the control of the province falling directly to the ruling council of Qart-Hadast. As such, the province can now accomadate the council if Qart-Hadast was to fall into enemy hands. If no province controlled by Qarthadastim has this level built in it then the council of Qart-Hadast is destroyed and this level will not be buildable again. Other penalties will also result from the loss of the council. This level also represents the province rising to far higher prominence in Qart-Hadast's empire such that high levels of the POLIS building will not cause huge PUBLIC ORDER penalties. This level allows the province to be fully governed without the need for large garrisons.


A Council Administration has been established; the council and Sufetes of Qart-Hadast now hold direct control over the province and the colonies here benefit greatly from their raised status as such.

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Signature Banners

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A Search For Truth





This thank you was originally supposed to be posted with the 'People of North Africa' preview, but due to some confusion it was forgotten. Thus, better late than never, here it is.

When the EB team began concepting the units of North Africa for EB1 we found the sources on them to be vague at best and many of the representations in modern art are often contradictory, not only with each other, but also with ancient sources. As such it was decided that a great deal of in-depth research needed to be done to provide the most accurate representation of these people as possible.

One member put forward the notion that we contact an expert in the Roman Frontier in Africa, as well as African tribesmen in general, one Professor David Mattingly. Professor Mattingly has dug at Garama, ancient capital of the Garamantine Kingdom, for some years now. Although we believed it a longshot we fired off an e-mail to the professor and lo and behold he responded! Not only did he respond, but he lavished us with pictorial references, citations from his own works, and personal suggestion on the equipment and dress of the Garamantines in the third century BC. Were it not for professor Mattingly it is quite likely our units for this region would have remained somewhat ahistorical and a proud civilization would have failed to make a significant impact upon EB.

As such we would like to officially thank Professor Mattingly for his assistance and wish him all the best!

We would also like to give a special mention to Dexter Hoyos, PHD. His help has been invaluable both on the definition of ethnicities and the development of the trait system (which you will probably see later).



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We hope you have enjoyed this preview of the Qarthadastim faction in Europa Barbarorum II.

Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures, names, and descriptions shown in our previews are works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.

Since some areas where these news items are posted cannot handle wide images, we appreciate your restraint from quoting full-size images.

As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:

Europa Barbarorum ORG forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

Europa Barbarorum TWC forum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

A special thanks to Huene, Tux and JMRC for their excellent models and renders, Gustave for the wonderful unit skins and battlefield images and Pacco for the amazing Iberian Slinger skin, JMRC, Bobbin and Huene for the unit cards, Tanit for the sig banners, General Grievous for the fantastic stratmap models, Foot for the new game mechanics, Kikosemmek, Tanit and gamegeek2 for the new translated unit names, and to Zarax, Paullus, and Tanit for the historical info and text work.

We give an additional thanks to Image Shack (http://www.imageshack.co.us) that provides us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures.

Have a great day!

Tanit
11-02-2010, 14:39
Libyan skirmishers :
https://img838.imageshack.us/img838/4443/lybians.th.jpg (https://img838.imageshack.us/i/lybians.jpg/)https://img830.imageshack.us/img830/33/lybians3.th.jpg (https://img830.imageshack.us/i/lybians3.jpg/)https://img822.imageshack.us/img822/8075/lybians4.th.jpg (https://img822.imageshack.us/i/lybians4.jpg/)https://img843.imageshack.us/img843/951/lybians5.th.jpg (https://img843.imageshack.us/i/lybians5.jpg/)https://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8115/lybians6.th.jpg (https://img707.imageshack.us/i/lybians6.jpg/)https://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1999/libyans2.th.jpg (https://img838.imageshack.us/i/libyans2.jpg/)

Libyan infantry :
https://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7386/lybiani1.th.jpg (https://img824.imageshack.us/i/lybiani1.jpg/)https://img576.imageshack.us/img576/9718/lybiani2.th.jpg (https://img576.imageshack.us/i/lybiani2.jpg/)https://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2051/lybiani3.th.jpg (https://img831.imageshack.us/i/lybiani3.jpg/)https://img833.imageshack.us/img833/1627/lybiani4.th.jpg (https://img833.imageshack.us/i/lybiani4.jpg/)https://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8379/lybiani5.th.jpg (https://img838.imageshack.us/i/lybiani5.jpg/)https://img245.imageshack.us/img245/360/lybiani6.th.jpg (https://img245.imageshack.us/i/lybiani6.jpg/)

Liby-phoenician infantry :
https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5956/lpi1.th.jpg (https://img90.imageshack.us/i/lpi1.jpg/)https://img576.imageshack.us/img576/2480/lpi2.th.jpg (https://img576.imageshack.us/i/lpi2.jpg/)https://img827.imageshack.us/img827/481/lpi3.th.jpg (https://img827.imageshack.us/i/lpi3.jpg/)https://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5421/lpi4.th.jpg (https://img822.imageshack.us/i/lpi4.jpg/)https://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9553/lpi5.th.jpg (https://img203.imageshack.us/i/lpi5.jpg/)https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/5219/lpi6.th.jpg (https://img819.imageshack.us/i/lpi6.jpg/)

Sacred band infantry :
https://img823.imageshack.us/img823/4999/sb1d.th.jpg (https://img823.imageshack.us/i/sb1d.jpg/)https://img839.imageshack.us/img839/6015/sb2i.th.jpg (https://img839.imageshack.us/i/sb2i.jpg/)https://img576.imageshack.us/img576/9067/sb3uu.th.jpg (https://img576.imageshack.us/i/sb3uu.jpg/)https://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9762/sb4j.th.jpg (https://img517.imageshack.us/i/sb4j.jpg/)https://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6997/sb5p.th.jpg (https://img841.imageshack.us/i/sb5p.jpg/)https://img831.imageshack.us/img831/7967/sb6h.th.jpg (https://img831.imageshack.us/i/sb6h.jpg/)https://img833.imageshack.us/img833/751/sb7a.th.jpg (https://img833.imageshack.us/i/sb7a.jpg/)

Officers :
https://img638.imageshack.us/img638/8718/officer1.th.jpg (https://img638.imageshack.us/i/officer1.jpg/)https://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7076/officer2g.th.jpg (https://img829.imageshack.us/i/officer2g.jpg/)https://img816.imageshack.us/img816/2507/officer3.th.jpg (https://img816.imageshack.us/i/officer3.jpg/)https://img541.imageshack.us/img541/8844/officer4.th.jpg (https://img541.imageshack.us/i/officer4.jpg/)https://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2343/officer5.th.jpg (https://img38.imageshack.us/i/officer5.jpg/)https://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6302/officer6.th.jpg (https://img824.imageshack.us/i/officer6.jpg/)

LusitanianWolf
11-02-2010, 14:50
Awesome as allways! :sweetheart:
All hail the mighty EB team!

Can't wait to kick their asses out of iberia ^^

stratigos vasilios
11-02-2010, 14:55
Wow. I'm Speechless. Huge thanks to the EB team.

nazgool
11-02-2010, 15:01
You are the best :) as always

SwissBarbar
11-02-2010, 15:02
Yaaa, my favourite facion

fightermedic
11-02-2010, 15:20
lol i must have been checking this forums once per hour since your annoucment that the preview is nearly done
and it's so worth it :)
carthage is one of my favourite factions!
going to read at once !

Lvcretivs
11-02-2010, 15:27
Brilliant and really astonishing work - many thanks, EBII team! (Given the unit evolution frequently alluded to - is there any chance of a quick glimpse of an - already completed - 'later era' skin? ;)

Horatius Flaccus
11-02-2010, 15:36
Fantastic preview! Especially the descriptions of the Authority-buildings are fascinating!


This Military Administration, while long-term, does not seek to integrate the province fully into the Ptolemaic empire:

It is in the 'Authority: Military Administration' description.

I take it that should be Carthaginian empire? :juggle2:

Tellos Athenaios
11-02-2010, 15:55
I take it that should be Carthaginian empire? :juggle2:
Well actually it shouldn't be part of the text at all. Essentially it is a building description which will be used in game, so I guess Tanit copy-pasted it from code and it went overlooked.

Tanit
11-02-2010, 16:04
Yeah, although I copied it from the development thread, not the code, but same difference. Woops on my part.

Ca Putt
11-02-2010, 16:09
Preview!!!!!!!!!!

YAY, thank you EB team for a lot of fun reading :)

fightermedic
11-02-2010, 16:14
i just had a closer look at the units and have to say: brilliant! especially some of the shields are nothing but awesome

anubis88
11-02-2010, 16:40
EPIC

James Purefoy
11-02-2010, 16:59
Excellent, awesome units! :2thumbsup:

mlc82
11-02-2010, 17:04
This and the rest of EBII really looks amazing... It's been years since I even felt the slightest urge to upgrade/buy a new pc just to run a specific upcoming game, but this will be THE one that I'll be upgrading it for, solely to be able to run EBII at full detail like I can EB1 now (added several gigs of RAM plus a new graphics card to this pc for EB 1 ;)

Lvcretivs
11-02-2010, 17:23
i just had a closer look at the units and have to say: brilliant! especially some of the shields are nothing but awesome

I absolutely concur - genuine marvelous work by Gustave. Especially the hopla of the 'Sacred Band' are little masterpieces.

paullus
11-02-2010, 17:34
Gustave did flat-out brilliant work on the shields, and on the units in general. He also did some of the historical research for the shields.

Arjos
11-02-2010, 17:37
Amazing, I really needed this XD
The region descriptions are awesome, with the family tree and the authority buildings, you pushed the roleplaying to the limit...
The great part is that this is just the tip of the iceberg :P
Also those with the falcata near the bottom row are a masterpiece O.o
So many things to appreciate: I love the hair style for the skirmishers ^^

Paltmull
11-02-2010, 17:53
:jawdrop: (as usual)

This is gonna take a while to read. Those Sacred Band are probably the most beautiful TW- units that I've ever seen. Simply stunning.

I keep changing my signature banner after every preview. xD It will be completely impossible to choose which faction to begin with when EBII is released.

jazstl
11-02-2010, 20:59
Jupijaijej.

Denixen
11-02-2010, 21:33
Wow, this is amazing, thank you guys! The new features seems to be both more numerous and more complex, just as we like it :D.
One of the things i really appreciate is that now all units basic infantry have sword, or so it seems. All units in the pictures had a sword modeled on their side, but only the sacred band units wield it in their hands (and a lovely kopis no less, or at least a sword with similar design). Is there any confirmation on whether the Liby-Phoenician Hoplites and Libyan Infantry will have swords that are usable and not just modeled? I really missed the swords for Liby-Phoenician Hoplites when I was up against other sword wielding nations like rome.

Klearchos
11-02-2010, 21:49
Amazing preview!!!
The province descriptions were great, and the shields look perfect!!

Reno Melitensis
11-02-2010, 22:09
No words can describe what you are doing EB team, you are simply fantastic.

Cheers.

James Purefoy
11-02-2010, 22:36
As I was ogling the lovely units, I noticed something about this one:

https://img517.imageshack.us/f/sb4j.jpg/

That star on the.. red shoulder-pad. I thought that was mainly a Greek symbol.
Did the Carthaginians use it, or is this just a part of the unit that is still WIP?

p.s. Units still look awesome :beam:

Noble Wrath
11-02-2010, 23:04
A few observations:

1) The notion of the Liby-Phoenicians being the non-privileged offspring of phoenician citizens and libyan peasant girls seemed always a bit problematic to me. I could not understand whether they were militia type soldiers or professionals, whether they bought their own equipment or it was provided by the state and most importantly why those "half breeds" fought in a phalanx formation whereas the Libyans who where clearly professionals and equipped by the state fought in a thyreophoroi/thorakitai fashion.

The new description answers all of my above questions: The Liby-Phoenicians are now just the citizens of the phoenician colonies other than Kart-Hadast (the possibility of intermarriage with locals being irrelevant to their social status), they are a militia force and as such they fight with their own panoply, using traditional tactics.

2) The possibility of rebellions led by disloyal generals or client rulers is thrilling. Just a question: if the settlement governed by such a character revolts, then does this general defects to the eleutheroi faction or is he just evicted by the settlement and still belongs to our faction? (in which case we must send him pirate hunting in the Baltic :devil:)

3) I really like that if all provinces administered by the council are lost, this government option (and with it I guess some elite units) are permanently lost. It gives your core provinces the importance they deserve.

4) The units are orgasmic as always.

Mouzafphaerre
11-02-2010, 23:18
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Gratificor! You are the best as ever. :jumping:

Just out of curiousity; I remember the team collaborating with Charles R. Krahmalkov for the reconstruction of the Qarthasti-Phoenician language during the preparation of EB1. What's up with that? (Unless it's confidential to the team or any interested parties of course. :sweatdrop:)
.

Ibn-Khaldun
11-03-2010, 00:14
Good preview.

When will the demo come out? :tongue:

Andy1984
11-03-2010, 02:03
Beautiful job as always. Apart from the wonderful shields and marvellous province descriptions (and many more), the unit card of the Liby-Phoenician and Carthaginian Noble Cavalry caught my attention. I always thought RTW-horses were a bit puny.

Tanit
11-03-2010, 02:19
1) The notion of the Liby-Phoenicians being the non-privileged offspring of phoenician citizens and libyan peasant girls seemed always a bit problematic to me. I could not understand whether they were militia type soldiers or professionals, whether they bought their own equipment or it was provided by the state and most importantly why those "half breeds" fought in a phalanx formation whereas the Libyans who where clearly professionals and equipped by the state fought in a thyreophoroi/thorakitai fashion.

The new description answers all of my above questions: The Liby-Phoenicians are now just the citizens of the phoenician colonies other than Kart-Hadast (the possibility of intermarriage with locals being irrelevant to their social status), they are a militia force and as such they fight with their own panoply, using traditional tactics.

Thank you!


Just out of curiousity; I remember the team collaborating with Charles R. Krahmalkov for the reconstruction of the Qarthasti-Phoenician language during the preparation of EB1. What's up with that? (Unless it's confidential to the team or any interested parties of course. )

This was done by Kikosemmek, our Punic language expert, and Urnamma, the old FC of Carthage. It is true this was done for EB1, but most of the names were redone for EB2 by myself, Kiko and GG2.


When will the demo come out?

This information is classified. :)

Earl of Memory
11-03-2010, 04:11
As always, great preview, very professional. I wish good luck to the team and the mod! (and hope it gets out before the end of the world :p)

Brave Brave Sir Robin
11-03-2010, 04:24
Good to know Carthage has been confirmed for EBII:clown:

Excellent work. The units look awesome

darius_d
11-03-2010, 09:55
my fav faction! Love those guys.
Any unit added to\removed from Qarthadast roster compared to EB1?

delablake
11-03-2010, 09:58
Beautiful as always. Looking forward for a little Christmas-Season gaming session...perhaps

dusko
11-03-2010, 10:59
Hi guys, great work as always, I have only one question about Lybian Infantry, they are shown as hoplites in the prewiev, but it is sead in the description that they fought as thureophoroi in EBs time period, as this is work in progress will this be changed in some manner? This is my first post on the forum so I don't wanna sound like I'm criticizaing you.
I'm just curious. Thanks and respect to the team and their work.

HFox
11-03-2010, 11:12
:daisy: magnificent!!!

Gustave
11-03-2010, 11:26
Wow, this is amazing, thank you guys! The new features seems to be both more numerous and more complex, just as we like it :D.
One of the things i really appreciate is that now all units basic infantry have sword, or so it seems. All units in the pictures had a sword modeled on their side, but only the sacred band units wield it in their hands (and a lovely kopis no less, or at least a sword with similar design). Is there any confirmation on whether the Liby-Phoenician Hoplites and Libyan Infantry will have swords that are usable and not just modeled? I really missed the swords for Liby-Phoenician Hoplites when I was up against other sword wielding nations like rome.
Only the sacred band uses swords and spears, the other units have only 1 weapon (the swords of the lybi-phoenician infantry, for exemple, are purely decorative). The reason is that, thanks to the crappy engine, they always quickly switch to their secondary weapon when engaged in close combat, so they act as swordmen rather than hoplites.


Hi guys, great work as always, I have only one question about Lybian Infantry, they are shown as hoplites in the prewiev, but it is sead in the description that they fought as thureophoroi in EBs time period, as this is work in progress will this be changed in some manner? This is my first post on the forum so I don't wanna sound like I'm criticizaing you.
I'm just curious. Thanks and respect to the team and their work.

They are hoplites with leather aspides in the early era, and they will be upgradable to thureophoroi-like infantry later (with thureos and some armours like linothorax), but for now only the early unit is done.

Brave Brave Sir Robin
11-03-2010, 16:05
I'm very interested in the evolution of individual units throughout the campaign.

moonburn
11-03-2010, 17:25
good work but loosing the council makes the faction split (no agregating point for all the poenii colony´s would mean that the spanish and african colonies would become loosely affiliated) or is it just the loss of the best authority building you can have for kart hadast ?

Skullheadhq
11-03-2010, 19:50
Awesome, we had to wait a little bit but it was worth it.

Bucefalo
11-03-2010, 20:53
Awesome work, on all fronts. Firstly it is very refreshing to read about the carthaginians in general (and the military) from a less romano-centric point of view, i learned a lot from this preview (such as the lybio-phoenician is more of a derogatory roman word that anything else).

I was also surprised to read that the so-called sacred band cavalry was little more than a myth, plus their new outlook as a hellenistic cavalry armed with xyston makes a lot of sense, in the context of the period of EB. In this regard i think the update from the original EBI version is very noticeable, and shows how much work has gone into it.

I must admit that i am a little skeptical regarding how will the AI handle those government types and authority buildings, but i must also say that i am amazed of how much the mod will change the mechanics of the campaign gameplay of M2TW, specially given the limitations, it is both impressive and ambitious, to say the least.

Finally i can not end without recognising the extreme and detailed work that has gone into the models/textures to bring them to another whole new level of accuracy and detail, delighting the fans to no end. I guess the unit part is always the most catchy and what people likes more, because as the saying goes "it goes throught the eyes" but i appreciate the work done on all fronts nevertheless. In this preview i specially enjoyed the research gone into it, because it debunked a lot of the conceptions that i had about the carthaginians and in my opinion showed them from a more objective point of view and less influenced by the roman authors. All in all excellent work, thanks EB team for another awesome preview.

Urg
11-04-2010, 00:42
Very very nice.

antisocialmunky
11-04-2010, 04:38
I love the new models :D

BerkeleyBoi
11-04-2010, 05:03
Wow, looks awesome! Thanks for the preview!

DaciaJC
11-04-2010, 20:36
Once again, the EB Team amazes. Incredible look and details on the unit models.

Denixen
11-04-2010, 23:26
Only the sacred band uses swords and spears, the other units have only 1 weapon (the swords of the lybi-phoenician infantry, for exemple, are purely decorative). The reason is that, thanks to the crappy engine, they always quickly switch to their secondary weapon when engaged in close combat, so they act as swordmen rather than hoplites.

Thanks for the clarification. This does however not surprise me. I have noticed that pikemen in MTW 2 tend to switch to sec weapon, but only when the enemy get to close or outflank them, even so only a few usually switch. Its a matter of positioning the unit right and protect their flanks. Not sure thou if this is what you are referring to...

Anyway there is a huge difference between hoplites and pikemen, so i guess that the behavior of pikemen don't fit hoplites...

Mouzafphaerre
11-05-2010, 00:07
.


When will the demo come out?
This information is classified. :)

should be:




When will the demo come out?
This information is classified. :)


~;)
.

Tanit
11-05-2010, 01:11
My apologies.

Zarax
11-05-2010, 08:02
I would also like to give a special mention to Dexter Hoyos, PHD. His help has been invaluable both on the definition of ethnicities and the development of the trait system (which you will probably see later).

Brucaliffo
11-05-2010, 11:44
Cannot wait to crush those beutiful Quarthadastim under my roman caligae! :skull:

Mouzafphaerre
11-05-2010, 12:54
.

My apologies.

None needed. :bow:
.

RawPower
11-05-2010, 20:22
THanks for the detailded preview! Love the uniforms and shield details.

B-Wing
11-05-2010, 20:32
Thrilled by the new preview! Amazing unit models and skins! Oh my gosh, I think EB2 will easily be the most beautiful and visually fascinating mod for any Total War game yet.

I did have one question/concern after reading the preview, though, regaring the decision to make a new province out of the interior of Sardinia. I understand this was done because the interior was never truly conquered in the mod's timeframe, but I wonder if this could not have been more optimally represented through the new Authority system. It seems the team is going to put a major focus on modeling the varying extents of factional control throughout different provinces via the Authority buildings, and I assumed it would be ideal for this very scenario. If any team members care to comment, what fueled the decision to represent this island as two provinces instead?

Tanit
11-05-2010, 21:11
Zarax, Paullus and I spent a lot of time discussing this and Zarax did some superb research on the region. There were a lot of reasons for making it another province, rather than using the new authority buildings. Firstly, there was a major cultural and social difference between the interior and coastal peoples of the islands. The coastal people had been heavily influenced by Punic and Greek settlers and were essentially no longer true Nuraghe. The interior tribes could still, and did still, consider themselves Nuraghe. Secondly, the peoples of the interior were relatively organized in their resistence to outsiders. Although they had come to be relatively peaceful with Carthage, who had finally given up attempting further expansion in the island, they thoroughly resisted Roman occupation in a comparitively organized manner. it was even commented that had the mod been set a couple of decades earlier we might have made the Nuraghe a faction. Thirdly is access to resources from the interior. This was impossible without alliance with the natives, as proven by a failure of Carthage to expand into the interior of the island, and the difficulties suffered by Rome later. Overall we made the interior a seperate province for the same reason that all of Spain is divided into different provinces rather than being one big province, that is to say that some levels of resistence cannot be represented by authority buildings. Our only other option was to remove one province slot from the islands completely and make the interior Eremos, but we all agreed that was not an ideal representation of the region. the final solution, reached after a rather long discussion, was agreed to be the best solution by all.

B-Wing
11-05-2010, 22:20
Very informative response, thank you!

Zarax
11-05-2010, 23:17
The conquest of interior Sardinia and Corsica was long and bloody, the nuragic people although under-equipped were stubborn guerrilla fighters and incredibly traditionalists.

Carthage tried to subdue them since the 6th century BC, with mixed success.
Their first invasion was beaten down after some initial success and Malchus' expedition was one that earlier achieved great results in Sicily, while their defeat was so unexpected that the general's fate was to be crucifixion.
Knowing this, Malchus on return assaulted Carthage and installed a short-lived dictatorship before being finally exiled.

In the following centuries 3 major campaigns managed to conquest the coastal and plain areas of Sardinia, managing to create an uneasy peace but definitely not a quiet one, proved by the "punic limes" in Sardinia.
Corsican coast was inherited from the Etruscans around 280BC and since then the two islands were ruled pretty much jointly.

During the first punic war romans had moderate success in the coastal areas but their offensives in the interior faced heavy losses, leaving the romans content with keeping the punic navy away from bases closer to Rome.
The truceless war marked the major shift, as the carthaginians mercenaries killed the punic officers and appealed for roman protection.
When Rime refused they were left alone to face a major Nuragic offensive that ousted them and gave the romans the excuse to invade Sardinia since it was now "independent".

Between the two punic wars they faced a similar situation to the Carthaginians, in which the plains were relatively easy to hold but the mountains were not.
After Cannae the most known uprising resulted in two pitched battles between roman and puno-nuragic forces, resulting in roman victory due a failure to properly connect between the allied armies.
Hampsicora's defeat at the battle of Cornus marked the start of a long and bloody guerrilla campaign in the sardinian and corsican mountains, on which many roman generals earned triumphs against the 3 main tribes of the area: Balares, Ilienses and Korsi, living respectively in north-western Sardinia, Central Sardinia and between north-eastern Sardinia and Corsica.

The last major uprising occurred around 178BC, but unrest continued until it was finally put down by Publio Conrnelio Scipio after his Iberian campaign.
Romans despised the nuragic populations, exterminating 80000 out of a population of little over 300000 and writers like Livy, Plutarc and Cicero used expressions like Sardi venales (sardinian cheap slaves because they had a reputation of trying to kill their "owner" at the first chance), latruncoli mastrucati (thieves dressed up in mastruca, a goat/sheep skin dress typical of the nuragic tribes) and a mixed race that took the worst habits of both barbarians and africans.

A distinctive culture with unique monuments (possibly partly related to the balearic tribes), which was a significant player from the bronze age until the 5th century and still important enough to be mentioned sending envoys at Delphi and Alexander the great in the 4th felt as deserving some more representation compared to EB1.
Many historians also consider the loss of Sardinia (which to carthaginians was a core province, home to many colonies) what ignited the revenge feeling that animated Hamilcar Barca to create the iberian domain which would one day serve as base for his young and promising son to deliver the promise he made when he was 9 years old.

Mouzafphaerre
11-06-2010, 01:25
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Thanks Zarax. :bow:
.

fightermedic
11-06-2010, 02:05
hey zarax good read that, maybe you should ad it to the opening post? a spoiler after the province descriptions?
a problem i see with this system is that if i conquer one of the 2 split provinces i would automatically rule a part of both isles? seems rather odd to me to automatically rule the interior of corsica just because i have conquered the interior of sardinia *shrug*
nice idea still, unconventional thinking.. thats the part i love about EB :D

Zarax
11-06-2010, 11:42
Thing is that you would historically have needed to subdue both at the same time, romans had to learn that the hard way.

There are records of one roman campaign that was successful in northern sardinia only to be ambushed in southern corsica when they stopped there to resupply.

[cF]HanBaal
11-06-2010, 12:40
a problem i see with this system is that if i conquer one of the 2 split provinces i would automatically rule a part of both isles? seems rather odd to me to automatically rule the interior of corsica just because i have conquered the interior of sardinia *shrug*

As i understood it only Sardinia will have 2 provinces (coastal and inland) while Corsica remains one province as before? Correct me if i'm wrong but I don't think Corsica's inland tribes ever caused the same problems as Sardinian ones. Ever since Alalia's battle, way before the game starts, the whole island of Corsica was significantly peaceful and under Karthadastim control (and that battle was to stop the invading greeks from taking the phoenician colony).

To compensate this new province, Augila (south of Kyrene), will disappear correct? Curious what other changes in other regions of the map are being done. A preview with all the current map changes would be nice.



As for the preview, congrats to all involved in this faction, a step up from EB1 where I was part of this faction team (and also Lusotannan). Karthadast will always be my fav faction in this timeframe and these new authority buildings will enhance in game what made me always love this faction. With the new gov system their character and way of living - a commercial, advanced, diplomatic and exploring nation, who always gave enough autonomy to her colonies and respected her treaties - will be now portrayed better in the campaign. Hope the gov building bonuses will reflect that, including the council/republic gov, admired by Aristoteles in comparison to the greek ones and justified by the fact that Carthage never suffered civil revolts (with the exception of the Mercenaries War later on if you can even include that one).

The units are also amazing. Only bothers me a bit so much red in their outfits and some of the shields with that green olive decoration in the borders (present in rome's faction symbol). Bit too romani no? Historical justification for these 2 situations?

Missed in the preview the elephant units too :embarassed: Can't wait now for the Iberian faction(s) preview(s) to get a hold on what the other half of my armies' units will look like. Any info on when that might happen?

cumps

Zarax
11-06-2010, 13:02
Err, no.
This is as much a compromise situation as it is an historical readjustment.
Given that there is one less province available than in RTW this is what resulted from long debates between those who wanted to fuse sardinia and corsica in one province and the quarthadastim members who wanted 3 provinces for the island.

I'm sure you can imagine the situation, while for the units I feel Tanit is better suited to answer.

[cF]HanBaal
11-06-2010, 13:28
oh i see. no extra province then? :(

It will indeed look very weird to make both coastal areas one province (and even more weird their inlands?!) since each island had its own particular history, both before and at the begining of the game (main rules on map definition for EB if things stayed the same since EB1). Korsim and Sardin were 2 distinct phoenician/karthadastim colonies with 2 diferent administrations as the game starts and this change is very negative to the realistic part of the game in these particular islands. In my opinion of course. Even today Corsica belongs to France and Sardinia to Italy. They're not even crossable by foot or small boats.

I would leave it as is if the team decides to not give the islands 3 provinces (and the lack of slots probably justifies it). Though of course 3 provinces would be the perfect solution. Where did Augila province slot went then?

EDIT: nevermind, reread the preview and the new province is in numidia.

Cumps

Zarax
11-06-2010, 14:11
For most of our timeframe sardinia and corsica were ruled as one province, Alalia was just a former etruscan colony that passed into carthaginian hands before our timeframe.
The strait of bonifacio is passable by small boats in summer (although knowledge of the currents is necessary) as it is short and relatively shallow.

Today's national situation does not apply, the two islands are still culturally close to each other than to the respective mainlands and natives can understand each other easier by speaking their local dialects than by relying on french and italian, also during the roman republic the islands formed one single province, Sardinia et Corsica.
The only period of time in which they were ruled separately was the few years between the end of the 1st punic war and the truceless war, otherwise from the 5th century BC onwards the islands (or better, their coastal areas) were a single puno-etruscan first and later just carthaginian domain.

[cF]HanBaal
11-06-2010, 16:12
"from the 5th century BC onwards the islands (or better, their coastal areas) were a single puno-etruscan first and later just carthaginian domain"

I didn't know this part in particular. I had the impression that Sardinia for example was never under a joint "puno etruscan domain" according to what i read. Can you point me where did you read this? I'm not doubting i'm just curious. I really thought i read somewhere them having 2 different administrations and backgrounds. Sardinia being much more punic influenced (and basically only colonised by phoenicians from the start) than Corsica, which was initially a Greek (Phocaen) colony and had a much more mixed population (phoenicians, etruscans and greeks).

Even militarily, during the 1st punic war, the romans conquered Corsica in 259BC, even if temporarily, but never Sardinia (a failed invasion at 256BC). Only after the 1st punic war, in 238BC, they would take advantage of the mercenaries revolt and treacherously claim the islands from the carthaginians, somewhat similar to what started the 1st punic war at Messana in Sicily, and form "the single province, Sardinia et Corsica" as you rightfully said.

Regarding the crossing between the 2 islands with small boats you're probably right. I just had the impression the currents were too strong considering the number of roman fleets wrecked around the islands (n00bs).

cumps

Zarax
11-06-2010, 16:29
During the first punic war the romans were much better than the carthaginians at sinking their fleets, mostly because they stubbornly ignored advice from greek sailors until they lost a couple hundred ships that way... The waters between Sardinia and Corsica are quite calm in summer (even today small boats often cross between the islands) but treacherous in winter (I tried them in a cruise-ship size ferry and it wasn't pleasant despite the ship size).

Carthaginians and Etruscans shared at some levels control of the islands since the battle of Alalia, which marked the end of phocean attempts at colonizing the islands and actually made them evacuate to Massilia, some historians points at the lamines of Pyrgi as an example.
Until the 3rd century BC the estruscans were of course more active in the north-east (Alalia, Olbia) while the carthaginians in the west (Turris, Tharros, Cornus, Sulci, Nora, Karali) but until the losses of late 4th and early 3d century BC both powers were active in both islands, although etruscan presence was mostly merchantile compared to punic one.
Also, the roman conquest of Alalia in 259BC should not be mistaken for any kind of widespread control, their early attempts on the interior costed high losses and the strategy basically shifted to just preventing the carthaginians from using their thyrrenian sea ports.

As for sources, they are mostly in italian, I'd suggest Lilliu and Barreca as two of the most respected archeologists of the area, "Sailors, shepherds and conquerors" is the only english book I'm aware of but not nearly as accurate.

[cF]HanBaal
11-06-2010, 17:17
I've been reading a little more online and you're right when you say the interior of Corsica resisted bravely to roman invasions. Only after more than 100 years and with heavy losses they secured the inland.

But the question here that i couldn't find is if under puno-etruscan and later carthaginian control (at 272BC in particular) the whole island of Corsica was under punic control or not. I read a lot of mentions to resistance from the Sardinian interior tribes (though by 272BC relations were peaceful), but none from Corsica's. Judging from what you wrote i would say the situation under punic control was similar in both isles (peaceful relations yet independent)

Both options (2 provinces=2 isles or 2 provinces=coastal+inland of both isles) seem a bit short but, in light of the new information you provided (crossable straits, similar resistance/independence from the interior tribes) both become reasonable considering 3 provinces is out of the question. In fact, now we would need 4 provinces to represent the most accurate situation :dizzy2: . However, and this is my personal opinion, i would still keep the 1st option and the reason is many regions in the map share the same problem of the existence of mountainous tribes who remain independent at some sort and they don't get the same treatment as here. Isn't this opening a precedent? The different colonisation/military history/ownership history up to 272BC would be another solid reason. But again, both options are acceptable.

Thanks for the sources but my italian is close to non-existant. I'll try that english source if i get the chance.

cumps

Zarax
11-06-2010, 17:25
The difference here is the amount of resistance put.
Consider that the romans took longer to pacify the interior of the islands than they did with stronger populations like the celtiberians and the fact that the area hosted a pretty unique civilization that left monuments still visible today.

[cF]HanBaal
11-06-2010, 17:51
The difference here is the amount of resistance put.
Consider that the romans took longer to pacify the interior of the islands than they did with stronger populations like the celtiberians and the fact that the area hosted a pretty unique civilization that left monuments still visible today.

I could argue back with the amount of effort put :)

And I think you chose a bad example. Rome waged war on Iberia almost continuously since 218BC up to 19BC (and their presence in northeastern Iberia dates from even earlier). That's 200 years. And we're talking of several consular armies lost in the process to the point that back in rome people refused to enlist to fight in Iberia. I think it was Julius Caesar who once said about Iberia: "First to be invaded, last to be conquered".

Of course we're talking of different scales. The iberians could field large armies too.

cumps

Zarax
11-06-2010, 18:06
Well, I did point at a slightly different scale, using the celtiberians as example.
Of course direct comparisons are not adequate but when you scale things properly you'll realize that it wasn't an easy war and kept tied 1-2 legions for around a century, which is not a small feat considering that the largest nuragic effort in our timeframe consisted of around 10000 soldiers (if we are to believe roman sources), most of which were light armed (no easy access to tin and iron supplies, copper alone is a bad choice to equip an army).

[cF]HanBaal
11-06-2010, 19:37
Impressive feets indeed. I enjoy reading these heroic victories from poorly armed armies from underdog nations defending their homelands.

Reminds me of 10.000 also poorly armed Lusitanians under Viriato, my nation's first hero, who for several years crushed roman armies, defensive initially but later even conquered regions from the romans. Was just revisiting his deeds:

- Praetor Gaius Vetilius with his 10.000 men in 147BC (4000 killed including the Praetor)

- Plaucius Hipseus in 146 BC (his successor) was also defeated along his 11.300 army, 2 times

- Then Viriato went to the next province and defeated the local Praetor Claudius Unimanus and his successor Nigidius also 2 times in 145BC.

- Then Rome sends a Proconsular army under Quintus Fabius Maximus Aemilianus of 15.000 men, 2.000cav to join with local Praetor Gaius Laelius army who were also defeated in 143BC, twice, the 2nd being a total victory.

- Then Rome sends another Proconsular army under Quintus Fabius Maximus Servilianus (a famed general) with an army of 18.000infantry, 1.600cav and 10 elephants who are not only defeated twice in 141BC but the remaining forces completely trapped, making Rome sue for peace and name Viriato "a friend of Rome" for sparing their lives. Peace would only last a year until Rome renewed the war (how unsurprising) and eventually bribed some diplomat envoys to assassinate Viriato in his sleep :no:

Impressive but a bit frustating. Iberians had no rest during their conquest. Almost every year Rome sent tenths of thousands of fresh soldiers to different front lines (the Numantine War was going at the same time) :sweatdrop:

cumps

Zarax
11-06-2010, 19:41
No power of the time could match roman manpower, no matter how many legions you crushed more would come until they won by exhausting the adversary.

fightermedic
11-07-2010, 00:57
tell that to phyrrus and hannibal ;)
sometimes i really AM curious how the world would look like had hannibal been properly supported by the carthagian council....

B-Wing
11-07-2010, 01:00
I've lost track of the on-going discussion/debate between Zarax and HanBaal. What exactly is the issue or question at hand?

Tanit
11-07-2010, 01:11
The issue was the provincial division and representation of Sardinia and Corsica.

Bucefalo
11-07-2010, 01:19
I think the representation is good, but i hope it does not affect other parts of the ancient world and their representation. I am of the opinion that a Permanent Stone Fort could do the same thing and represent the nuraghi resistance in the interior of the island, without using a province. Still as i said i do not disagree with the team decision, i just hope that there is enough provinces to represent the rest of the world with the same level of detail.

moonburn
11-07-2010, 06:56
Thing is that you would historically have needed to subdue both at the same time, romans had to learn that the hard way.

There are records of one roman campaign that was successful in northern sardinia only to be ambushed in southern corsica when they stopped there to resupply.

technically with the permanent stone forts one should be able to simulate the problems of taking over the entire island

@cf hanbaal i really can´t wait for the arevaci preview ^^ altough i suspect they will be one of the hardest factions to jumpstart once on their way they should give a iberian/celtic flavour to the game

[cF]HanBaal
11-07-2010, 18:28
I think the representation is good, but i hope it does not affect other parts of the ancient world and their representation. I am of the opinion that a Permanent Stone Fort could do the same thing and represent the nuraghi resistance in the interior of the island, without using a province. Still as i said i do not disagree with the team decision, i just hope that there is enough provinces to represent the rest of the world with the same level of detail.

Exactly my thoughts. A precedent has been made and what will happen in the rest of the map remains to be seen. I didn't even know about this possibility of Permanent Stone Forts who would indeed be a better solution too in my opinion.

I think what the team wants, and made a priority of, is to represent the Nuraghi native population and their hinterland in both isles who remained virtually unconquered by 272BC. And that is great. But by doing that they will eliminate the importance of Corsica since now if you conquer Nora in southern Sardinia automatically (coastal) Corsica goes into your hands (?) which is peculiar at least. This would also clash with the history of both islands as i already mentioned (until the battle of Alalia, Corsica was in greek hands and Sardinia was in phoenician hands; in the first punic war romans took Corsica briefly but never Sardinia; the population in coastal Sardinia was basically phoenician while in Corsica was a mix of greeks, etruscans and phoenicians; even the revolts of the native population in both islands were not simultaneous i believe).

Concluding, any of the solutions will not be perfectly balanced but with the possibility of Permanent Stone Forts - one on the hinterland of each island, remaining 2 provinces to represent the coastal colonies of each island - it would get as close to perfection as it could, IF these Permanent Stone Forts represent more than a simple military presence. Question: By conquering them, the province in which they stand will get additional bonuses (law, happiness, trade, farming)?


@cf hanbaal i really can´t wait for the arevaci preview ^^ altough i suspect they will be one of the hardest factions to jumpstart once on their way they should give a iberian/celtic flavour to the game

The Arevaci and the Numidians will add a LOT of fun to the area and to both Karthadastim and Lusotannan campaigns. Right as it should have been since EB1. But the greek/eastern lobby was too strong in the team by then ehehe


tell that to phyrrus and hannibal ;)
sometimes i really AM curious how the world would look like had hannibal been properly supported by the carthagian council....

That sir, is the billion dollar question. Incredible decisions were made by then. It wasn't lack of resources who stopped Hanno's party from supporting Hannibal in Italy as he requested right after Cannae, sending his younger brother Mago to Karthadast personally. Instead Hanno sent a large army under Hasdrubal Gisgo to Iberia to take control there (and disrupt the solid Iberian alliances with Hannibal's brother Hasdrubal who was in perfect control of the whole region and also militarily successful till then. Polybius describes this perfectly); at the same time he also sent another large (unsuccessful) expeditions to Sicily and Sardinia (read somewhere that as much as 500 ships were in that one). Maybe Zarax has access to more information on that Sardinian invasion.

Concluding, the resentment from Hanno and his ruling party to Hannibal's father coming from the 1st Punic War/Mercenaries War, as well as, in my opinion, envy for their enourmous successes, both father and son, was the key factor for this war's fate.


Cumps

Tellos Athenaios
11-07-2010, 18:41
This is really simple: there are two slots to represent Corsica & Sardinia, just like there were in EB 1. But the historians for Carthage in particular felt that what EB 1 did left something to be desired mainly because the inland regions did not come into play, and the close connection between the two islands was not at all obvious.

Zarax
11-07-2010, 18:42
Actually Alalia was the culmination of the phocean attempt of gaining a stable foothold in Corsica, which was met with full strength by etruscans and carthaginians.
Although the phoceans won the battle it was called a cadmean (an early version of Pyrrhic) victory and the outcome was the evacuation of Corsica by the greek.
From that date onwards Corsica remained firmly in puno-etruscan hands, with the only known greek action over there being a raid in the early 280s which left no lasting presence.

As for the diversion of carthaginian reinforcements to Sardinia it most likely was because it was seen as a golden opportunity to recover the island, given that Hampsicora managed to unite a good share of the nuragic tribes and the roman force there was weakened by disease.
Unfortunately for the carthaginians a storm blew the fleet towards the balearic islands, allowing the romans to defeat the two allies piecemeal as they failed to reunite in time.

Had the carthaginians been successful they would have recovered an economically important province as although there is no solid data about the punic period the island was rich in grain and metals, quoting Solinus: "India ebore, argento Sardinia, Attica melle" ("India is famous for ivory, Sardinia for silver and Attica for honey"), not to mention fresh mercenary forces.

EDIT: for those interested in Carthage I'd suggest reading the books by Dexter Hoyos, they are well sourced and pretty well written as well.

[cF]HanBaal
11-07-2010, 19:34
Actually Alalia was the culmination of the phocean attempt of gaining a stable foothold in Corsica, which was met with full strength by etruscans and carthaginians.
Although the phoceans won the battle it was called a cadmean (an early version of Pyrrhic) victory and the outcome was the evacuation of Corsica by the greek.
From that date onwards Corsica remained firmly in puno-etruscan hands, with the only known greek action over there being a raid in the early 280s which left no lasting presence.

While it is true the greeks evacuated the island (though i would believe some of them, including half-breeds, would stay around as it happens in every decolonisation process) it is said it were the etruscans who took control of Corsica (others say it was a joint puno-etruscan control), while the phoenicians stayed with full control of Sardinia. A clear distinction in population and customs must have been present then, at least in the coastal colonies. It is not known exactly up until when they kept firm control of the island (you mentioned 280BC?) but in 452BC Syracusan ships attacked both Etruria and Corsica which leads to indicate Corsica was under Etruscan control.



Had the carthaginians been successful they would have recovered an economically important province as although there is no solid data about the punic period the island was rich in grain and metals, quoting Solinus: "India ebore, argento Sardinia, Attica melle" ("India is famous for ivory, Sardinia for silver and Attica for honey"), not to mention fresh mercenary forces.

Wether Hanno strategy was the best or not I dunno. I'm with Hannibal, i would concentrate my forces on the enemy's heart, especially considering it was bleeding as never before.

cumps

Zarax
11-07-2010, 19:38
Excavations in Alalia found a pretty even mix of punic and etruscan remains in corsica, while in sardinia etruscan ones dwindle the more west you go (although in some nuragic villages they were more prominent than punic ones).

As for the global strategy, given the almost total dominance of the punic senate by the barcids I think many tend to overestimate Hanno's role in the military strategy.

Paltmull
11-07-2010, 22:03
@cf hanbaal i really can´t wait for the arevaci preview ^^ altough i suspect they will be one of the hardest factions to jumpstart once on their way they should give a iberian/celtic flavour to the game


HanBaal;2053224837']
The Arevaci and the Numidians will add a LOT of fun to the area and to both Karthadastim and Lusotannan campaigns. Right as it should have been since EB1. But the greek/eastern lobby was too strong in the team by then ehehe

Say what now? When was the Arevaci confirmed as a faction?

Zarax
11-07-2010, 22:06
With 20 factions it was a hard choice, 31 gave us more room but still we would have liked more slots.

Paltmull
11-07-2010, 22:10
Ok, now I'm confused. What I meant was: Will the Arevaci be a faction in EBII? If so, when was that confirmed? I can't remember hearing about it. :huh:

Tanit
11-07-2010, 22:16
We have only chosen and implemented a small number of the new faction slots, most of which have been revealed. For the remaining faction slots we are saving work on them for after first release to speed up development, although practice development threads have been done for most of the possible faction choices, these remaining possibilities include the Arevaci, it is possible that someone may have leaked them as a confirmed faction as a result.

Paltmull
11-07-2010, 23:45
Ok, thanks :)

[cF]HanBaal
11-07-2010, 23:58
As for the global strategy, given the almost total dominance of the punic senate by the barcids I think many tend to overestimate Hanno's role in the military strategy.

Nope.

"For years past they have been trying to force me back by refusing me reinforcements and money; but now they recall me no longer by indirect means, but in plain words. Hannibal has been conquered not by the Roman people whom he defeated so many times in battle and put to flight, but by the envy and continual disparagement of the Carthaginian senate. At this unlovely and shameful return of mine it will not be Scipio who will be wild with triumph and delight, but rather Hanno, whose only way of ruining me and my house has been by ruining Carthage”-Livy’s reports of Hannibal’s response to Carthage’s recall order


Carthaginian political will was embodied in the ruling oligarchy. While there was a Carthaginian Senate, the real power in Carthage was with the inner "Council of 30 Nobles" and the board of judges from ruling families known as the "Hundred and Four". These two bodies consisted of the wealthy, commercial families of Carthage. Regarding the senate, two political factions operated in Carthage: the war party, also known as the "Barcids" and the peace party led by Hanno the Great. Hanno had been instrumental in denying Hannibal’s requested reinforcement following the battle at Cannae. Hannibal attacked Saguntum (who were attacking their iberian allies, the Tordoletes) without the full backing of Carthaginian oligarchy and this presented them with the possibility of war with Rome or loss of prestige in Iberia, where the virtually unlimited silver mines helped their decision. When roman diplomats went to the Carthaginian Senate and declared war, they accepted. The oligarchy and not Hannibal controlled the strategic resources of Carthage. Hannibal constantly sought reinforcement from either Iberia or North Africa. In Iberia, the turmoil provoked by the army sent by the Senate under Hasdrubal Gisgo to control the Iberian holdings, who mistreated several of the Iberian warlords allied to Hannibal as related by Polybius, as well as roman presence north of the Ebro, delayed some years the initial plan of reinforcements by Hasdrubal Barca to Italy by the same route through the Alps. And in Carthage, the commercial interests of the Carthaginian oligarchy led by Hanno, as well as envy and resentment to the Barcas coming from the 1st Punic War, dictated the reinforcement of Iberia, as well as Sicily and Sardinia, rather than Hannibal throughout the duration of the campaign.

To better understand Hanno's party dominance and where this own personal envy and resentment comes from, that compromised both wars, I recommend reading more about the first Punic War, the Mercenaries War and the departure of the Barcas to Iberia. I'll search a good source and post it here when i have more time.


Say what now? When was the Arevaci confirmed as a faction?

lol. I only mentioned the Arevaci cause moonburn mentioned them before. i dont know if they will be in game, though im pretty sure another Iberian faction will make it.

cumps

[cF]HanBaal
11-08-2010, 00:31
Excavations in Alalia found a pretty even mix of punic and etruscan remains in corsica, while in sardinia etruscan ones dwindle the more west you go (although in some nuragic villages they were more prominent than punic ones).

Nice info, but the doubt remains on who was actually in control of Corsica. The excavations confirm that coastal Sardinia was mainly colonised by phoenicians and consequently under their control. But what about Corsica? The only leading clue i found was that attack in 452 BC by Syracusan ships on both the Etrurian and Corsican coasts which leads to believe that Etruscans were in basic control of the island. I also read that it was a common agreement after Alalia that Carthage would keep Sardinia and Etruscans would keep Corsica. Of course a great deal of interacting between the islands must have happened due to the peaceful relations and treaties between the two nations who would pass on to the roman days when they absorbed Etruria.

moonburn
11-08-2010, 07:02
roman propaganda ... as far as i´ve read hannibal (or even hamilcar some say) made the original plan of unleashing an army in italy to recover the old lands back while the romans where busy trying to defend their allies (the source of their manpower)

on his trip to italy hannibal refused to meet a roman army wich in case of victory would have allowed him easyer acess to italy (but also a known route and therefore organised oposition instead of being behinde enemy lines in some ways the same as cesar made where the importance was the element of surprise and speed and not winning by winning) one should also remember that when he refused batle in those circumstances he still had the 22.000 iberians he eventually sent back and his entire elephant corps (wich should have allowed him a win that army was just there to delay him i believe )

so claims that there where intercine political wars in carthage when presented by the romans should be frowned uppon remember that scipius gained his name by facing the greatest threat that rome had ever met so any way to make the threat even bigger (by slandering the charties as a whole and making hannibal more capable...) would mean that scipius would receive greater honours

comunication problems ? ofc intercine and sacrificing carthaginian honour for personal grudges ... i´ll have that with salt please! the importance of sardinia iberia and sicily where tremendous for the carthaginians
also the notion that allies could be kept while hannibal was out of iberia and there wasn´t any carthie army there is a bit ridiculous probably they where sent there (the armies) because as soon as hannibal left iberia several warlords started to plot against the carthaginians interests remember the carthies as a whole where merchants so not highly respected by warrior cultures such as the celtiberians only hannibal was because he was a proven warrior so to keep control of iberia you needed something those warlords respected and that was soldiers even if hannibal had left a son of hamilcar and a brother in charge he wasn´t probably as highly admired or respected as hannibal and therefore several tribes probably considered that they could take them on (see the way the romans that where far ruthless where continously challanged by the local tribes even as far as iulius cesar time where every year a group of lusitanians would gather and start pillaging the southern lands)

so the lack of suport of the senate of carthage if it had existed was probably respecting a greater strategic design to rebuild the carthaginian power by trying to recover sardinia corsica and syracuse or desrupting the roman web of allies (such as bribing a few instead of using the gold to recruit more mercenaries) remember the 2nd punic war was after the mercenary wars so probably the senate was also a bit "afraid" to rely so heavily on mercenaries while the mercenaries where also less willing to fight for carthage after such a war so the hability of carthage to get lybians greeks and others to fight for them was restrained by both the employeers fear of future rebellions as well as the employees fear of not getting payed

it´s easy to oversimply things that at the time that they are being made have 100 possible ramifications

after canae hannibal had no siege engines but what stoped him of building them ? i mean there´s tree´s in italy and engineers and large animals ...

also the army that tryed to invade sardinia where actually hannibal reenforcements that the senate of carthage where sending him to keep the pressure over the romans while another army was destroyed trying to reenforce hannibal fallowing the same route (the alps) and that ambush somehow sealed the fait of the carthies in the iberian peninsula

as for the arevaci i was here when a few people made strong points towards several factions and the arevaci thread received alot of positive criticism by the team members making it clear that the arevavi where undoudabtly one of the factions that deserved the spot (i mean cheack the map when the game is loading there´s a slithly diferent colour in celtiberia meaning that whoever made that map at the time he made it was considering the arevaci a viable faction)

sorry for the long walltext of supositions and halftrues but thats my point on the subject (altough not my entire crazy theory with no historical way of being verified/confirmed)

Tanit
11-08-2010, 14:30
While I agree that Livy is often untrustworthy, I put a lot of faith in Polybius.

As for the different colour in celtiberia. Back in 0.7 of EB, the Iberians were a joint faction consisting of several provinces, including celtiberia. Later the faction was reworked to fit the theme of EB by only representing one group of Iberians rather than all Iberians in a manner similar to RTW vanilla.

[cF]HanBaal
11-08-2010, 19:09
Polybius, on the absence of any other contemporary source and on the fact that he wasn't roman neither carthaginian, is indeed the most reliable source, even if working for the romans. His greek passion in the search for truth visiting personally the places and routes Hannibal took, collecting physical evidences like those plates where Hannibal wrote his army's numbers and taking testemonies from people from those same places is remarkable. He even later in his life followed the steps of Hanno the Navigator sailing along the Moroccan and Mauritanian atlantic coast.

Livy on the other hand was a much more passionate and biased born latin, besides writing at a much more distant time. However, since Polybius account of the 2nd punic war became fragmented after Cannae, we are left with none other than Livy for the most part of events since his work remains fully preserved. What is positive though is that one of Livy's main source regarding the 2nd punic war was Polybius and both their narratives, up to Cannae, are oftenly carbon copies. So we can assume that Livy's account post-Cannae should not be taken entirely with "a grain of salt" as moonburn suggests. Livy even had an advantage as he used more sources, including a very important one, Coelius Antipater, who followed Silenos, one of the historiographers who accompanied Hannibal during his campaign and who was also used by Polybius. Coelius wrote about the second punic war in 7 books, who are now unfortunately lost. In this way Hannibal's quotations like the one I presented are very possibly true, or at least, very close to his actual words.

When reading Livy you must distinguish the parts where he makes judgements of character, personal opinions and engrandment of anything that would embolden his own nation, from facts and quotations from older sources he could not alter much due to the distance in time that separated him from these events. Most of the critics about Livy are regarding his early works about the foundation of Rome where almost no sources were available and he gave his imagination a lot of wings. Being contemporary of Augustus and his period of success as well as the brink of the Christian Era helped emphasize his works.

cumps

olly
11-08-2010, 23:07
Just wanted to say thank you for the preview. My favourite 'big' faction of all time and it looks smashing. Thanks

Cadwalader
11-08-2010, 23:15
Oh, EB team, you're spoiling us! :clown:

Thanks for another interesting and deeply satisfying preview. I'm as amazed as ever about the work you put into your mod.

moonburn
11-08-2010, 23:35
sorry for my outburst but people are seing carthage by the roman point of view and forgetting a few things that might or might not have influenced the carthaginian decisions during the entire war and therefore continue to criticise the poenii senate without giving them a chance
one of the best quotes in the entire game is "don´t wish ill uppon an enemy, plan it" and somehow this seems something that fit the chartaginians well enough so if i was the senate of carthage (or a member of it) there aren´t that many things i would have done diferently based on the time and place of the events and the limited control that a group of people standing in africa can have over an army of men in italy and colonies all over the western mediterrenian and friends and allies from diferent places asking for help

carthage wasn´t as wealthy as prior to the 1st punic war (per se) thats why they needed the silver mines of iberia so sending armies to iberia to secure them seems perfectly sensible expecially because their allies in iberia where less then trustworthy barbarians who only knew loyalty by either iron or gold (and lets face it they could get more gold by taking control of the mines and siding with the romans as scipius did towards the end when he brought several of the punic allies to his side) "senate view" if i was a poenii and in no way an attempt to disvirtuate the celtiberian and iberian allies of carthage

also i bet that the mercenary wars left a bad taste in carthaginian mouths so at the start of the war they probably weren´t so willingly to trust so much in mercenaries as before and instead rellyed more on the iberian allies (and even so hannibal sent 22.000 of them back because he didn´t trusted them)

on the mercenary side they knew the roman fame in war and probably knew what had happened after the 1st punic war so they probably weren´t so willingly to join the poennii in a war where their chances of where survival where not so appealling and there was a chance they wouldn´t get payed after the war (probably the greek and lybian mercenaries ) so carthage hability to raise armies was also ampered it took hannibal a few victories before the mercenaries saw that they had a chance at victory (and plundering of rome) and started to enlist

as for reenforcement armies it seems hannibal brother left iberia fleeing scipio because he was turning the iberians against the carthaginians so hardly the senates fault he was ambushed as for the armie leaving from africa and then turning to sardinia it seems perfectly plausible that having a base in sardinia to suport hannibal and acess to the nurighian mercenaries would be a smart move on the long run


it wasn´t the poenii senate fault that the romans decided to wage an atriction war after canae that they didn´t sued for peace or that they stoped trying to defeat hannibal in a pitched batle and instead went to iberia and africa to undermine hannibal´s suport in africa and iberia and it wasn´t the poenii senate fault that the makedonians didn´t joined the war in italy either so what could the senate do ? i mean diferently from what they did during the war ?

had hannibal won in zuma what would have happened ? the poenii wouldn´t get their iberian concenssions backs sardinia and sicily where lost the allies where spent and the numidians where turned into the roman side so even if hannibal had won that batle it was just postponing what inevitably happened after because carthage couldn´t "harvest gold" from trade with it´s ports blockaded and with no gold no way to continue to hire mercenaries

wudang_clown
11-09-2010, 17:51
My regards to the EB II Team for all the work!

Preview holds brilliant features, absolutely fantastic work, guys. :)

[cF]HanBaal
11-09-2010, 17:55
what could the senate do ? i mean diferently from what they did during the war ?

One of the things that strikes me as odd in humanity is that there are people who not only make bad decisions, but even knowing the outcome of bad decisions will still do them.

Let me refute some of your critics by parts begining with your questioning of the army at Massilia ignored by Hannibal as well as your support to the decision of not sending Hannibal immediate reinforcements after Cannae as he requested.

The key word is time. Time was of the essence and that's why, at the early stages of the war, Hannibal not only ignored the army who landed at Massilia when he was, we must say, already a few days of march past them and heading for the Alps - and this way avoiding the consular army ready on Sicily to land in Africa and otherwise return to Northern Italy to confront him and his new allied Celts of northern Italy - but also completed his first objective, to bring the main stage of war and the terror and devastation associated with it to Italy itself, while saving his home city from this and a probable siege.

After Cannae Hannibal needed immediate reinforcements for 2 reasons. First, Northern Italy was already in a turmoil as proved by the legions totally destroyed in the same year of Cannae at the hands of the northern allied Celts. With Southern Italy properly garrisoned and his army replenished, he could finally march on what would be the main stage of war for the rest of the campaign having all his sides secured. That's why at this same year he established alliances with both King Hieronimous of Syracuse and Philip of Macedon.

Second. Central Italy would not be as easy as their counterparts to ally with him and Hannibal knew it well since this is where most of the latin colonies were. Even in the South the few latin colonies didn't change sides. It was not a question of "not having trees to build siege engines" as you said. A depleted army with less than 40.000 men now marching on a region who pumped up around 23 new legions between Cannae and 213BC, as recorded by Polybius (that's easily above 200.000 men) without his rear secured would be disastrous in my opinion. Especially considering it would be immobilised and encamped, as you suggested, at the gates of a well defended, highly populated city as Rome, which would take years to starve and almost impossible to storm with such a short army.


they needed the silver mines of iberia so sending armies to iberia to secure them seems perfectly sensible

First, they were secured by Hasdrubal Barca. Second, I agree the silver mines were important, but at such a decisive point in the war, weren't those troops desperately needed in Italy as I described above? Let me quote Polybius to justify my point, as well as the disastrous consequences of those reinforcements to Iberia under Hasdrubal Gisgo (or Gesco), who not only delayed the planned reinforcement of Hasdrubal Barca to Hannibal from Iberia through the Alps, as well as eased the mission of the romans of bringing many tribes to their side:

"The Carthaginian commanders had mastered the enemy, but were unable to master themselves, and while thinking they had put an end to the war against the Romans began quarrelling with each other, constant friction being caused by that covetousness and love of domination which is innate in Phoenicians. Hasdrubal, son of Gesco, was one of them, and his abuse of the authority he wielded went so far that he attempted to extract a large sum of money from Andobales, the most faithful friend the Carthaginians had in Spain, who had formerly been deprived of his principality owing to his attachment to them and had recently been restored to it for the same reason. When he now refused to pay, relying on his loyalty in the past to Carthage, Hasdrubal brought a false accusation against him and compelled him to give his daughters as hostages." - Polybius Book 9

This is just one example but clearly illustrates my point. On a side note, even in Polybius we see these doubtable judgements of character on the phoenicians I mentioned in Livy but understandable considering he was working for the romans.

About sending other armies to Sicily and Sardinia, I use the same argument of wether were they more needed at this decisive point in the war. Besides, their disastrous result also questions if they wouldn't be better employed under a capable commander as Hannibal.

cumps

moonburn
11-10-2010, 02:17
to avert those results the senate would have to know what would have happened in the future or in real time as they where going
since they didn´t we can only imagine that they made a bad call on the caracther of the person picked to lead those armies in iberia and it doesn´t seem a strategical error since they needed (gold/silver) to conduct their campaigns

so you can´t directly input that on the punii senate

hannibal didn´t went to rome because he himself made a caracther judgement mistake he assumed that the romans would sue for peace
after cannae there weren´t any decent roman soldiers left and it would take time to train them had he fallowed the romans into rome and he should have been able to build a few rams and storm/sack the city like brennus had done just 100/200 years earlier

as for flaws of caracther you say it like if the romans didn´t had them too (the reason for canae to have ended the way it did was that the 2 consuls refused to work together) and since the romans had more power and more time to abuse that power i think we can make an enourmeous list of wrong doings by the romans (extortion lieing betrayals pure stupidity arrogance and so forth and so forth), roman luck was their imense recruitment pools to recruit from and a few admiral comanders at the right time sadly for carthage they seem to have had their only luck with hamilcar and hannibal

the army in massilia as i had said would have delayed the carthaginian plan so hannibal did the same as iulius cesar did 200 years (give or take) after he picked speed and surprise over numbers and the original plan as i said nobady knows exactly who made it but it does show some hability by the punic to strategyse wich goes in accord to my original claim (do not wish ill uppon an opponent, plan it) so i think that in this we concur

central italy wouldn´t be a problem after the romans had accepted peace terms or had their head decapitated with the fall of rome thing is he never went to the doors of rome it´s just a few dozen kilometers from canae (not sure) but instead he sitted on his ass instead of pushing the tactical advantage


as for the part of they wouldn´t have been better used under the hands of a better comander such as hannibal i can agree to that but something always showed up when carthage where about to send an army just because the romans didn´t knew about their plans doesn´t mean they didn´t had one it just means that the poenii where good in controlling information

hannibal army in italy was a way for carthage to take control of sardinia and all of their former colonies back he was never suposed to win so splendidly as he did probably he was just suposed to pin the romans in italy most likely but the fact is we don´t know and if we don´t we have no right to call the carthaginian senate dumb or that they where screwing up hannibal on purpose putting personal interests before the carthage superior interest but i highly doubt that

we can take alot of analogies with the cesar story where the senate where trying to undermine him so he wouldn´t crown himself king of rome except that cesar´s victories proved them right

if i was a strategist in carthage and please try to think like that what would be better ? send an army to italy or an army to iberia to take control and acess to more resources so you can compete with the roman recruitment pools ? what would be better to send an army to italy where they could be intercepted or destroyed in a storm or ambushed in the alps or send it to sardinia where you could collect more soldiers and have a better base to launch attacks against rome ? for me it´s an easy plan pin the romans in italy take sardinia and then from sardinia ship the men up the tiber and do as it appears in the eneias story or do as alexander did (hammer and anvil) thats how i assume that the senate in carthage planed and thinked their entire war plan (reconquer what we lost keep what we gained in iberia and catch the romans unprepared by disembarking on central italy)

from sardinia with the wealth of iberia the wealth of corsica the wealth of sicily (wealth also includes the hability to recruit mercenaries may it be understood) you can build enough armada´s to control the sea´s and when you control the seas you can probably land army after army into central italy perhaps with the greeks of megales hellas on the south pressing the romans the makedonians disenbarking by the adriatic sea and the celts pressing the romans from the north rome would have to surrender and sue for peace

^
|
| thats how i see the carthaginian plan coming together

Ptolemaios
11-10-2010, 08:04
Very good, as ever!!!
I think the best improvement to EB 1 is that you know have some other factions in northwestern africa, so the beginning of the camapaign should be more interresting. I maybe start with this faction eventhough i´m a fan of the hellenistic ones. The greatlooking skins just blew my mind.

Divinephyton
11-10-2010, 10:09
Wow, you guys are sick!
Emailing Mattingly and getting a thourough response, that is just plain epic!
Very very much looking forward to the release!

[cF]HanBaal
11-10-2010, 23:03
First of all sorry for clogging up the thread with an off-topic discussion, even if directly related to the faction of this preview.

So, moonburn, since you are going into the world of possibilities we will just have to agree to disagree. Just 3 quick but fundamental corrections. Rome wasn't by FAR as "easy to storm" in the 2nd punic war as in Brennus days more than a century before as you say. A lesson equally learnt by Carthage in the Mercenaries War that, even if not conquered, reforced extensively its defences by building triple walls and barracks inside for 40.000 infantry and 300 elephants. Carthage in its only real siege, by a gigantic roman army in the 3rd punic war (which wasn't a real war), and even after giving 200.000 individual equipments of war and its catapults to a treacherous roman condition for peace, resisted for 3 years and was only taken by a sea attack. Carthage NEVER surrendered. The same can't be said of Rome: Brennus and his Celts, Alaric and his Visigoths, Genseric and his Vandals... pussies xD

Second, Rome wasn't "deprived of soldiers" after Cannae as you say. 2 legions were sen't to the north by the roman senate in this same year and after Cannae, only to be destroyed by the Celts it's true, but if they were so desperately needed they would have stayed in Rome. If you search through the primary sources you'll see that days after Cannae Rome was fully prepared for a carthaginian siege, that never came. People tend to overestimate the loss of 86.000 (and consider around 10.000 escaped Cannae to Canusium) in the estimated recruiting pool of 750.000 able men romans had. And this not counting slaves, criminals and under and overaged Rome used to form more legions at the later part of the war. A testemony to the several more legions Hannibal destroyed in Italy in the 14 years after Cannae, contrary to the general belief no more proper battles were fought after it.

Third, Cannae wasn't a "few dozens kilometres away" from Rome. Rather few hundreds. And such a battle must have had many wounds among his soldiers, who must also have been very tired, and also many dead to bury of his already depleted army. And as Hannibal said in one of his speeches to his soldiers, the loot from the dead and the captured was their pay.

But as important as all these 3 points if not more, he now had many allies turning to him and which needed proper garrisons (basically all of Southern Italy except the latin colonies who constantly pressed on his new allies) who would make a perfect base of operations for both geting a steady chain of supplies which would be CRUCIAL for a prolonged siege/war in Central Italy, at the same time have his rear guarded and finally, receive reinforcements from Carthage. He got Locri for example, one of the biggest southern ports, from where he eventually got 4000 numidians and 40 elephants by the senate in 215BC, if you can call that proper reinforcements in the 14 years he was in the south.

To conclude, a common saying "Those who do not learn from mistakes, are destined to repeat them". This critic I made above was directed to you, not the carthaginian senate, who obviously could not know the consequences of their actions. Though I bet some did.

cumps

NeoSpartan
11-13-2010, 08:11
This EBII game is going to be OFF DA HOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As soon as this :daisy: comes out I am buying a new PC, and I already have a new one, I will still spend $$ to upgrade it. I needz full detail.

Btw... I will forward this game to some of the history faculty at University of Maryland.

hoom
11-14-2010, 05:35
I'm really liking this rework of the Carthage roster :)
I was particularly shocked by the previous absence of Iron cuirasses on the Sacred Band given its one of the few pieces of Carthaginian armament that has been quite clearly stated.

Excellent quality & variation in the shields & armour of the Libyphoenicians & Sacred Band :)
If other factions/units get similar quality work this is going to be a visual feast.

I hope that you guys have been keeping an eye on this thread (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=323503&highlight=iwte) & we might get to see a rendition of Carthage in her glory!

I presume that Carthage will be able to recruit a wide variety of regional units as well as this core group?
I hope there will be fairly tight unit maxes on these top-end units too?

-42-
11-15-2010, 00:39
By far my favorite preview to date. The roster makes more sense (I was always confused as to why citizen militia were base level troops), and I'm thrilled to see skirmishers with swords and decent shields (cheap flankers).

nazgool
11-17-2010, 12:42
Yesterday I found something like this about Sardinia
LINK (https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/1887/13156/7/ASLU02_04.pdf)
This article is quite interesting.
Have a nice day all EB fans :)

Zarax
11-17-2010, 15:42
Nice link, it uses many of the sources I based my work on and it gives a good idea of the extension of the "punic limes".

Folgore
11-21-2010, 23:22
Totally awesome preview! Made me reinstall EB1 and start a Qarthadastim campaign. (Additionally, the discussion about Hannibal in this thread got me reading Livius. It's great!)

I have two questions though, regarding the units.

I read, on the other forum, that these units constitute the entire factional roster for the first EB2 release. However, it strikes me, from the unit description, that the liby-phoenician hoplite units will use the mechanism presented in one of the earlier Stele, where you have no upkeep inside a city, but very high upkeep outside it, to represent that they are a citizen militia only called upon in times of emergency. Now, in EB1 I'm using these guys to form my main line. If these guys aren't supposed to come along on campaign, which unit should I use in my armies?

And that really is my second question, in terms of EB2 units, what would a Qart Hadashtim army (from the first Punic war, I suppose) look like?

Tanit
11-22-2010, 16:59
A Qarthadastim army relied upon several methods of recruiting. Firstly they had a regular levy that all administered territories were subject to supply at all times, Carthage itself and Utica were free of this restraint. Second, any territory, even the independant ones, could be called upon to form a conscript force in times of need, this applied to every territory without exception. Troops were equipped in two forms thus, the first group were a trained force, equipped from a centralized magazine/armoury in Carthage. The equipment of the second force was dependant on the speed in which it was raised, and the people it was raised from. Carthage maintained a large enough armoury it could equip conscripts as easily as its regular levies, but some troops were not equipped from the armoury or were needed too soon to be brought through Carthage. In addition to this regular force, Carthage could hire mercenaries, although it hired fewer than most authors have made it appear, most troops were either levies or conscripts. The confusion comes because Carthage paid its levies and conscripts at the same time as its mercenaries, thus causing almost the whole army to be referred to as mercenaries.

The core of the Punic army consisted of a hoplite line. This was made up mostly of the regular levy, or conscript, Libyan infantry. This Libyan hoplite phalanx was supplemented before about 260 regularly with citizen hoplites including both Liby-Phoenicians and Sacred Band for first release relevance. The Sacred Band always formed the right flank of the phalanx line where possible. However, this era of heavy citizen use is nearing its end after losses to Timoleon and Agathocles. The army also had a large number of skirmishers, these usually included Libyan skirmishers and could also include African slingers, Numidian skirmishers and Numidian archers, see the Numidian preview, as well as Balearics. The cavalry flanks were formed by citizen cavalry before about 260, with the nobles forming the right wing, but afterwords, with the exception of battles against invaders on African soil, the cavalry was composed of levies and mercenaries. Libyan cavalry, and sometimes Liby-Phoenician cavalry, served this purpose, but they were largely, though not entirely, later replaced by Iberian and Numidian cavalry. Elephants and chariots could be used to either support the flanks or weaken the enemy centre before the infantry engagement.

You see, Carthage conducted itself in manner similar to ancient Persia. Subject territories were usually free to go about their business, but had to supply troops. Thus the Carthaginian army can evolve over time depending on which territories it gains. Heavy infantry will always form the centre of their line, with skirmishing troops ahead, and cavalry divisions on the flanks. A very typical army of the age. They prefer hoplites for the line, but will use any troops, even celtic and celtiberian mercenaries.

Leão magno
11-24-2010, 00:02
Great work as usual... but I can not deny I do not understand Sacred band not using totaly white shields; Where are Astartes one? What happenned with Anatin Lybeen (mispelled), where are the Elephants, the late units and elites?

bobbin
11-24-2010, 04:01
The late units will not be in the first release, so they haven't been made yet.

Tanit
11-24-2010, 05:23
White Shields - Were the 10,000 citizen troops who fought Timoleon. The Sacred Band were 2,500 and had, according to the after battle account, extremely elaborate and ornate armour and shields.

Astartes - Read the Sacred Band and Noble Cavalry unit descriptions

Aanatim Leebim - These are now the Lo'hamim Lybim, read the description for an explanation of the transition from Hoplites to thureophoroi style infantry

Elephants - Already seen in the Numidian preview, or was it the North African Peoples' preview? Either way, so we did not feel it necessary to show them again with so many other exciting units and updates to feature.

Late Units - As Bobbin said, not first release, you will see them in the future.

Elites - African Infantry are late, pikemen are not in first release, Liby-Phoenician elites were a cross idea between two unit types and the rework of that concept will be featured in a future release, Sacred Band are still in, Sacred Band cavalry have become the noble cavalry, see the description.

-42-
11-24-2010, 06:44
Quick question, the description of the Noble Cavalry states that the horses wore peytrals and chamfrons, have those simply not been modeled yet?

bobbin
11-24-2010, 15:21
The horse models and skins have not been finished yet, what you see on the unit card is a placeholder from another unit (celtic noble cavalry i think).

Leão magno
12-04-2010, 17:26
I just sincerely hope that the mercenary roster for Qarthadastim is at least as numerous and sorted as EB I, usually much of my Qarthadastm armies are composed of mercenaries (Italians, Iberians, Africans, etc)

Delta146
12-06-2010, 20:00
I have always liked playing as Qart-Hadast, I love the army compositions, troops, and the general situation of the area. The EBII Qarthadastim look like they will be a lot of fun to play as. I particularly like those Sacred Band, they look superb.

QuintusSertorius
12-10-2010, 02:26
Aanatim Leebim - These are now the Lo'hamim Lybim, read the description for an explanation of the transition from Hoplites to thureophoroi style infantry


I noted that they're now "thureophoroi-style", not actual imitations which are almost identical, as they were in EB1. Bit of a shame, I liked the Aanatim Leebim.

Leon the Batavian
01-11-2011, 13:21
First just another great preview of yet another mighty faction. Superb job


HanBaal;2053225974']
Carthage NEVER surrendered. The same can't be said of Rome: Brennus and his Celts, Alaric and his Visigoths, Genseric and his Vandals... pussies xD

cumps

Hmmmmmm

Anno 2011

Rome: Where millions of people everyday enjoying their cup of coffee in the morning watching the sun rise.
Carthage: ............... where a wind blows away some more sand.............................

Yes you are right Carthage never surrendered.................................. there was and is simply nothing left to surrender.:no:

I bet you are a great admirer of mister P. C. S. Africanus :wink2:

Anyways, nice to be able to repeat history again and to utterly and decisively destroy Hannibal and his Carthage. :2thumbsup:

[cF]HanBaal
01-11-2011, 23:03
Hmmmmmm

Anno 2011

Rome: Where millions of people everyday enjoying their cup of coffee in the morning watching the sun rise.
Carthage: ............... where a wind blows away some more sand.............................

Yes you are right Carthage never surrendered.................................. there was and is simply nothing left to surrender.:no:

I bet you are a great admirer of mister P. C. S. Africanus :wink2:

Anyways, nice to be able to repeat history again and to utterly and decisively destroy Hannibal and his Carthage. :2thumbsup:

Hmmmm?

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/00/18/dc/56/view-from-the-room-s.jpg

A nice view from nowadays Carthage's 5 star Hotel Villa Didon, right on the legendary karthadastim Byrsa hill. Certainly more than just "sand"? And certainly pleasant for a "cup of coffee in the morning watching the sun rise."? :inquisitive:

Carthage nowadays is a very pleasant place to visit where recent excavations
show several karthadastim constructions and where even the famous man-made punic ports remain visible.

And don't forget both cities have gone through many different 'leaderships' after the ancient times. Comparing both to nowadays standards is ridiculous. You know perhaps that rome's population went as low as 17.000 right after its imperialist days?

And again, contrary to ancient rome, ancient Karthadast never surrendered. Sorry if that bothered you but you'll just have to live with that. =)


EDIT:
https://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3756/portdecarthage1pp.jpg

For comparison, an image of ancient Karthadast with the same angle. In the first pic if you look closely you can see where the 2 ports were. And to imagine around 1/4 million cubic meters were moved to build them, using the technology of those days, makes them even more fantastic.

Leon the Batavian
01-11-2011, 23:36
I know Carthage was a gem even before Rome was something worth mentioning.

The fact is that the City has been completely destroyed unlike Rome so there wasn't really something left to surrender.

And no it doesn't bother me at all, i know the outcome of the Punic wars as you do.

By the way, I do like those pictures and I admire Hannibal.

cmacq
01-12-2011, 10:34
I know Carthage was a gem even before Rome was something worth mentioning.

The fact is that the City has been completely destroyed unlike Rome so there wasn't really something left to surrender.

And no it doesn't bother me at all, i know the outcome of the Punic wars as you do.

By the way, I do like those pictures and I admire Hannibal.

Then you understand Rome suffered its destructions as well. For example the Gauls once held the city for ransom, and it is from this point its real history begins.

Ludens
01-12-2011, 11:42
Indeed. It was Rome who insisted upon wiping out Carthage after the third Punic War. It's not Rome's merit that her own enemies were gentler.

Leon the Batavian
01-12-2011, 12:22
And yes I do know about that part of history.

@ Ludens true. But then again if everyone hated the Roman Empire so much why were their enemies so gentle ? Maybe those "Barbarians" were indeed more Civilized.

Anyways this topic isn't about Rome nor its people.

Ludens
01-12-2011, 13:46
@ Ludens true. But then again if everyone hated the Roman Empire so much why were their enemies so gentle ? Maybe those "Barbarians" were indeed more Civilized.

I doubt the barbarians were particularly gentle when looting a town; it was more that the Romans took systematic sacking to a new level. And this was just for "ordinary" opponents who did not surrender in time. The razing of Carthage is special, and there's something hysterical about Rome's hostility to Carthage in the run-up to the Third Punic War. The city was no serious threat, yet it seems the Romans were determined to find offence.

Also, it should be noted the later sacks of Rome were steeped in the politics of the dying Western Empire. Alaric and his Goths formed the mainstray of the Roman army for years. They had been promised land, yet time and again found themselves treated as second-rate citizens. They took Rome to make a political point, attempted to install a new emperor, negotiated, and only when that failed did they sack it. The Vandals had similarly been promised land and not gotten it, so they set up their own pirate empire. Their attack on Rome came at the invitation of a former empress who needed rescuing.

In both cases the attackers had tried to become part of the Roman Empire, so clearly they didn't hate it. It was the political games of the Roman generals, and their reliance on barbarian warriors as cheap firepower, that provoked the sacks. However, before this is cast as "scheming Romans" vs. "noble Barbarians", it should be noted that the Roman generals were often from barbarian ethnicities themselves. In fact: during part of this period the Western Empire was practically controlled by a Vandal, Stilicho.

Leon the Batavian
01-12-2011, 15:19
I doubt the barbarians were particularly gentle when looting a town; it was more that the Romans took systematic sacking to a new level. And this was just for "ordinary" opponents who did not surrender in time. The razing of Carthage is special, and there's something hysterical about Rome's hostility to Carthage in the run-up to the Third Punic War. The city was no serious threat, yet it seems the Romans were determined to find offence.
.

Was it not of their fear for another Hannibal / Carthage who might not make the same mistakes the orignals made ? Carthage had the ability to recover fast financially at least.

I mean Scipio learned from Hannibal, Rome learned from others, so maybe when they let Carthage live to fight another day who knows what would happen.

Ludens
01-12-2011, 16:55
Was it not of their fear for another Hannibal / Carthage who might not make the same mistakes the orignals made ? Carthage had the ability to recover fast financially at least.

I mean Scipio learned from Hannibal, Rome learned from others, so maybe when they let Carthage live to fight another day who knows what would happen.

Personally, I doubt this economical recovery amounted to much. Carthage probably resumed her position as the dominant port in the south-western Mediterranean, but without her possessions in Sicily and Iberia and no strong hold over other African ports she would be nowhere near as wealthy. Those highly lucrative mines in Iberia were now exploited by Rome, too.

Strategically her position was even worse. Carthage had lost the two previous wars so it was unlikely that anyone would come to her aid a third time, especially not against an enemy as implacable as Rome. Also, knowing Roman policies it is likely that former pro-Carthage rulers had either capitulated or suffered the consequences; while pro-Roman ones had prospered. There would be no shortage of willing allies to support a Roman invasion.

Basically: even if Carthage did have an economical resurgence, she was still in no position to assert political or military control over her neighbours, and any attempt to do that would have given Rome a casus belli. There was no rational basis for Roman fear. They were either projecting or attempting to justify the settling of an old score.

Leon the Batavian
01-12-2011, 17:25
Thank you

Poor Carthage, well EB 1 and EB 2 can make it happen! :)

Great Preview!

nazgool
01-20-2011, 12:25
I have one question. In the Qarthadastim preview there is notice about PROVINCIAL AUTHORITY BUILDING ( in first version of this preview used to be AUTHORITY POLICY BUILDING???). Here ftp://ftp.europabarbarorum.org/EBII%20-%20Gameplay%20-%20Provinces%20and%20Authority.pdf you wrote that there are two types of Authority buildings, Central and Outlying. I know that Military Control, Allied Kingdom and so on are Central Authority and they co-operate whit Provincial Authority Building. My question is : what is PROVINCIAL AUTHORITY BUILDING and where it belong (outlying group or maybe somewhere else?) ?
Sorry for my English, this is my second language :). I’ll be grateful for answer or simple diagram that enlighten me.
And one more thing. You make great things and thank you to everyone creating this mod :).

Foot
01-20-2011, 14:13
I have one question. In the Qarthadastim preview there is notice about PROVINCIAL AUTHORITY BUILDING ( in first version of this preview used to be AUTHORITY POLICY BUILDING???). Here ftp://ftp.europabarbarorum.org/EBII%20-%20Gameplay%20-%20Provinces%20and%20Authority.pdf you wrote that there are two types of Authority buildings, Central and Outlying. I know that Military Control, Allied Kingdom and so on are Central Authority and they co-operate whit Provincial Authority Building. My question is : what is PROVINCIAL AUTHORITY BUILDING and where it belong (outlying group or maybe somewhere else?) ?
Sorry for my English, this is my second language :). I’ll be grateful for answer or simple diagram that enlighten me.
And one more thing. You make great things and thank you to everyone creating this mod :).

Old internal names, but they are the same building.

Foot

adishee
01-29-2011, 05:22
The razing of Carthage is special, and there's something hysterical about Rome's hostility to Carthage in the run-up to the Third Punic War. The city was no serious threat, yet it seems the Romans were determined to find offence.

Carthage = Iraq

LusitanianWolf
11-02-2013, 20:36
I was checking out this preview battle screenshots for the 84943589343953 time (which are awesome btw) and there is a warning on Imageshack:
Attention: Imageshack will be removing the anonymous uploader on November 4th!

Please someone reupload them again so we don't lose them and the preview while still awesome due to all the info will be a little less magnificient.
Thank you!