November 9 1989 [Archive]

Ser Clegane

11-09-2010, 19:03

The Berlin Wall fell

What a great day that was - I still lived in my hometown Göttingen at that time which was pretty close to the German-German border. The weeks after the border opened were amazing.

Vuk

11-09-2010, 20:18

YAY! On Nov 9th 1989 Strike did not exist! ~;)

TinCow

11-09-2010, 20:23

The Berlin Wall fell

And I wasn't even born yet

Thanks for making me feel old.

Rhyfelwyr

11-09-2010, 20:33

I was under two months old then, no memories for me. But at least I can say I am a chlid of the 80's. It seems really funny to think I existed in the 80's, can't get my head round it, ha!

InsaneApache

11-09-2010, 21:18

I remember the border crossing opening in, I think, Hungary and lots of folks driving into Austria. I was amazed. I can recall thinking, "this looks interesting, I wonder when the Soviets will send the tanks in!"

Then a few weeks later the Belin wall was ripped down. I was still expecting the guards to open fire but they didn't. History in the making.

Furunculus

11-09-2010, 22:12

Thanks for making me feel old.

lol, me too!

Hax

11-10-2010, 01:42

My sister had lived for about two weeks, at that point!

lars573

11-10-2010, 07:03

And I was 8 years old. I remember nothing about the wall falling.

PanzerJaeger

11-10-2010, 07:43

The wall should be a constant reminder of the pain and suffering communism has wrought throughout the world.

Hax

11-10-2010, 10:19

Let's just leave it at civil strife in general.

Hosakawa Tito

11-10-2010, 11:48

Hehehe, I was working the afternoon shift in the D block yard tower at Attica, ironic no?

Tellos Athenaios

11-10-2010, 19:39

I was under two months old then, no memories for me. But at least I can say I am a chlid of the 80's. It seems really funny to think I existed in the 80's, can't get my head round it, ha!

Neither can I. Whenever I see the bricks of plastic of those days considered “hi-tech” I can't help but shake my head in disbelief: did I live through all that?

Rhyfelwyr

11-10-2010, 20:29

Neither can I. Whenever I see the bricks of plastic of those days considered “hi-tech” I can't help but shake my head in disbelief: did I live through all that?

Heh, the thing that gets me is seeing those 80's songs on TV, then realising I was around when they were in the charts. :sweatdrop:

That, and looking at a map, and seeing the USSR. By the time I was about 8 I was fascinated with maps and was very familiar with the post Cold-War looking world, seems bizarre to think the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was around when I was...

gaelic cowboy

11-10-2010, 20:40

Heh, the thing that gets me is seeing those 80's songs on TV, then realising I was around when they were in the charts. :sweatdrop:

Take it away Tommy tell em what the eighties music scene was like.

WARNING: Contains vulgarisms and profanity that some listeners might find offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdD_8GwaOxI

Rhyfelwyr

11-10-2010, 20:51

Oh my days, I just looked up what song was top of the charts when I was born, and it's Ride on Time, even I know that one! :sweatdrop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74GwwUVnPLA

HoreTore

11-11-2010, 22:57

The wall should be a constant reminder of the pain and suffering communism has wrought throughout the world.

Kinda like how Scandinavia is a constant reminder of how incredibly awesome socialism is.

Rhyfelwyr

11-11-2010, 23:59

Sweden has a welfare state, it is not socialist. Denmark and Finland even less so, and Norway is only where it is because of a certain resource.

Tellos Athenaios

11-12-2010, 00:07

What kind of pick 'n choose rightist are you to say a welfare state is not socialism, nay to say it is not communism?! :balloon3:

Rhyfelwyr

11-12-2010, 00:10

I am the welfare state kind of rightist myself, not a market liberal. And socially conservative, yet politically liberal.

EDIT: It's not a sliding scale from welfare state - socialism - communism, you know!

HoreTore

11-12-2010, 22:19

Sweden has a welfare state, it is not socialist. Denmark and Finland even less so, and Norway is only where it is because of a certain resource.

Nonsense.

First off, FINLAND ISN'T A PART OF SCANDINAVIA. What their Hitler-loving behinds are up to is none of my concern.

Secondly, both Sweden and Denmark are just as social democratic as Norway is. We've all been ruled by a social democratic party for so long that even our conservative parties have social democratic policies.

EDIT: In the 90 years that has passed since they first took office in the beginning of the 1920's, the social democratic parties in Sweden and Denmark have ruled in 50 of them. No other party or ideology comes close to the influence social democracy has had on Scandinavian society.

Rhyfelwyr

11-13-2010, 01:29

Social democracy =/= socialism

And different people have different definitions for geographic regions sometimes, Finland is usually considered part of Scandinavia here.

HoreTore

11-13-2010, 13:33

And different people have different definitions for geographic regions sometimes,

That's like saying it's accurate to call a car a banana.

Finland is usually considered part of Scandinavia here.

:daisy:

.....And social democrat is just another word for a socialist.

Rhyfelwyr

11-13-2010, 14:43

That's like saying it's accurate to call a car a banana.

Africa used to mean the northern part of Tunisia and Asia used to mean Turkey, definitions change and come to mean different things for different people. :shrug:

.....And social democrat is just another word for a socialist.

If social democrats were socialist they would probably call themselves socialist and not social democrats. :idea2:

Fundamentally, social democrats support a capitalist system, they just tone done its excesses through a strong welfare state.

Tellos Athenaios

11-13-2010, 15:00

HoreTore

11-13-2010, 16:57

If social democrats were socialist they would probably call themselves socialist and not social democrats. :idea2:

......is that why they do refer to themselves as socialists....? :idea2:

Rhyfelwyr

11-13-2010, 18:30

Well to be fair socialism is not necessarily the opposite of capitalism. That's just one particular narrow interpretation called communism (and even that can in theory be reconciled with capitalism in some form or another). At the core capitalism is about how the economy works, and socialism is about how society works.

Socialism is primarily an economic theory, it calls for public ownership not of private property as some of its opponents use to slander it with, but of the means of the production. IMO Marx took Adam Smith's principles and applied them to an industrialised world (so yeah, not the opposite of capitalism).

......is that why they do refer to themselves as socialists....? :idea2:

Sorry you're right the socialists are socialists, and by socialist I mean social democrat??? ~:confused:

Social democracy is not just a branch of socialism. Social democrats share the same principles as socialists, but have very different ways of achieving them.

HoreTore

11-13-2010, 18:38

Sorry you're right the socialists are socialists, and by socialist I mean social democrat??? ~:confused:

Social democracy is not just a branch of socialism. Social democrats share the same principles as socialists, but have very different ways of achieving them.

Ah, so the Marxists are Marxists, and not socialists then?

Rhyfelwyr

11-13-2010, 19:02

Ah, so the Marxists are Marxists, and not socialists then?

Ye gods man! As I said in my previous post, socialism is an economic theory based on public ownership of the means of production, whether that is done through the state or some other means.

Marxists support socialism as a temporary measure to achieve their utopia. Socialists support socialism for the sake of socialism. Social democrats do not support the socialist economic system in any way, shape, or form.

HoreTore

11-13-2010, 19:11

Ye gods man! As I said in my previous post, socialism is an economic theory based on public ownership of the means of production, whether that is done through the state or some other means.

Marxists support socialism as a temporary measure to achieve their utopia. Socialists support socialism for the sake of socialism. Social democrats do not support the socialist economic system in any way, shape, or form.

As you yourself noted - definitions change. Almost noone in the world wants everything to be publicly owned, yet, there are plenty of people who call themselves socialists.

And the social democrats are one of the splinter groups from the original labour movement, in fact it is the group everyone else split from. The Norwegian Labour party contained the entire Norweigan labour movement up until the 20's, when the leninists split.

PanzerJaeger

11-13-2010, 19:57

Kinda like how Scandinavia is a constant reminder of how incredibly awesome socialism is.

Well, I wouldn't call what Sweden has going on 'incredibly awesome'; and Norway is more of an example of how incredibly awesome it is to be geographically located near rich oil deposits. But yea....

HoreTore

11-13-2010, 23:57

Well, I wouldn't call what Sweden has going on 'incredibly awesome'; and Norway is more of an example of how incredibly awesome it is to be geographically located near rich oil deposits. But yea....

Sweden is basically a clone of Norway, same goes for Denmark.

The standard of living is basically the same, and the way our countries are run are almost identical.

Shaka_Khan

11-14-2010, 12:37

The Scandinavian system didn't capture people who openly denounced it if any did, unlike the communist ones. They didn't make people disappear either. And anyone who was considered or accused of being associated with the bourgeoisie had to watch out. There was a reason why people tried to flee communism even long before the fall of it. Part of the reaon was that communist leaders were very paranoid.

I don't know why the dotcom forum bans the names Stalin and Hitler. TW members never supported those two. TWC isn't going to prevent past tragedies from repeating by erasing history.