Politics and Football [Archive]

Rhyfelwyr

11-09-2010, 21:13

Celtic kicked up a bit of a fuss at the weekend after they displayed some anti-poppy protests (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1328110/Celtic-boss-Neil-Lennon-backs-bid-ban-poppy-protest-fans-admits-sensitive-issue.html?ito=feeds-newsxml).

As usual, the PC-brigade were quick to condemn these protestors as people who do not represent the views fo Celtic fans, and for some reason think that they themselves are the only people who have a right to claim to speak on behalf of Celtic fans.

As usual, their liberal rhetoric completely ignores reality, since the greater part of a whole stand was directly involved in the protest.

https://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9130/poppyprotest.jpg (https://img130.imageshack.us/i/poppyprotest.jpg/)

We have quite a history of this sort of thing with the Old Firm (Rangers/Celtic, JICYDKBYRSK, you get a balloon if you work that out btw). Celtic have had similar protests for a few years now, while Rangers have had Ulster day, Orange day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y27NJ7wzuUE)(in reference to their Dutch connections rofl and absolutely not the Orange Order, good shots from about 6 second in).

Now, here is the controversy. Firstly, as you would expect, I will rush to the aid of the radical republicans at Glasgow Celtic! :knight:

In response to the poppy protest, we've had the usual righteous indignation from the moralising pc-brigade, who like to use the line that "politics doesn't belong on the football pitch". So, I wonder if the same pc-brigade will also wholeheartedly condemn programmes such as the current 'Show racism the red card', in which all players actively participate before games doing shows for the crowd with their anti-racism message.

Seems like hypocrisy to me, as usual the liberal crew use the 'leave me alone' line, but don't feel like leaving everyone else alone. Keep politics out of football seems to mean keep politics they don't like out of football.

Plus their whole language of reconcilliation 'why can't we just get along theme' in saying these protests do not represent Rangers/Celtic fans is bollox, look at the pics/videos the vast majority of Celtic fans clearly support the poppy protest, and the vast majority of Rangers fans clearly showed support for the Orange Order.

I don't see a problem with having this at football grounds.

But, do you?!?!!?!?

HoreTore

11-09-2010, 22:35

Politics of course have a place in football, and so does mockery, insults and more general messages of hate.

Politicians, on the other hand, had better stay away.

Louis VI the Fat

11-09-2010, 22:43

HoreTore

11-09-2010, 22:49

Yeah...I dunno man. I myself just couldn't be bothered go over all of history since 1688 when I'm watching a game of footy. Over here we just get drunk then entertain ourselves with songs about the career choices of the opponent's female relatives.

I watched a programme about the derby between some clubs in Istanbul I can't remember.... But their favourite taunt was along the lines of "<insert player name> go have sex with(said in a naughtier way) their mothers!!"

Rhyfelwyr

11-09-2010, 23:13

Yeah...I dunno man. I myself just couldn't be bothered go over all of history since 1688 when I'm watching a game of footy. Over here we just get drunk then entertain ourselves with songs about the career choices of the opponent's female relatives.

And then there was the whole thing when Rangers set ticket prices to £16.90, lol. :laugh4:

Rhyfelwyr

11-09-2010, 23:16

HoreTore

11-09-2010, 23:30

Heh, it's not like it's just a Scottish phenomenon. I remember all the Celtic fans thought they were being smart when they took Palestine flags for thier game against Hapoel Tel-Aviv, when it turns out Hapoel are the 'liberal' team of Israeli football (IIRC, anyway), and often fly Palestine flags themselves. If they had done it against Beitar Jerusalem on the other hand...

Reminds of how the Chelsea fans makes gas hissing when facing Tottenham....

Do football teams in France/Norway/wherever ever have these political connotations?

Yes and no. Obviously we don't have different religious or ethnic groups etc facing each other here, so what have is a "milder" version... But my team, Vålerenga, is a team from the capital, Oslo, and therefore regularly uses banners with degenerative terms for farmers, rural people, people from other parts of the country, etc etc. A common chant used in every game is "Øl og vold, skamslåtte bønder"(beer and violence, beat up peasants) and it's by far the loudest one, and the one most of the fans sing along with. Another case is when we faced now bankrupt(HAH!) FC Lyn, with Lyn being the upper-class side, while Vålerenga is working class.

Other commons songs are:
- "We know who our dad is!" - sung quite a few teams, particularly the upper-class teams Stabæk and Lyn
- "Everyone from (Våler)Enga claps like this"(followed by simulating heroin use) - sung by most teams outside the capital, like in Hamar and Drammen
- "Everyone from X has the same grand-dad" - sung by Enga when facing rural teams, particularly Ham-Kam, and X is substituted by the name of the opposing teams city

Rhyfelwyr

11-10-2010, 01:11

Ha! I've seen some similar themes following teams in the lower leagues here.

Teams from the less industrialised north get a lot of abuse for their fondness of sheep. For coastal Peterhead, we use "You only sing when you're fishing".

Probably the funniest one was when we were playing against Stenhousemuir. They celebrate the clubs connections with Norway, and so they have a cowbell they like to ring all the time (you can still hear it since the attendance at these games is low). One time they were doing it a bit much and it resulted in a chorus of "Shove yer cowbell, Shove yer cowbell, Shoooove yer cowbell up yer arse"... :laugh4:

gaelic cowboy

11-10-2010, 01:26

Rangers and Celtic to be honest strike me as being like two bald men who a constantly fighting over a comb.

To answer the thread yes it is hypocritical to proclaim only one form of politics is allowed at the match and since Celtic fans see the poppy as a political symbol then to them this protest is about keeping politics out.
(Except of course it doesnt keep politics out cos the reason for the protest in the first place is political in and of itself, I bet any money they are probably some eejits from the likes of the IRSP or Eirigi etc)

The Union Jack has flown alongdside the Tricolour in Croke Park if the GAA can let the past be the past and allow England in for a match then maybe I think maybe Rangers/Celtic should give it a rest maybe just maybe.

Plus I wonder because the pitches are the home teams property and place of work etc etc are you actually allowed the freedom to protest and the like.

Rhyfelwyr

11-10-2010, 01:38

To answer the thread yes it is hypocritical to proclaim only one form of politics is allowed at the match and since Celtic fans see the poppy as a political symbol then to them this protest is about keeping politics out.

Aye, besides all the controversial topics, pointing out this rather dull bit of legalism (can't think of a better word, I'm tired) was really the heart of the matter.

The Union Jack has flown alongdside the Tricolour in Croke Park if the GAA can let the past be the past and allow England in for a match then maybe I think maybe Rangers/Celtic should give it a rest maybe just maybe.

Heh, yeah, I guess it must seem strange to some people that the continued fascination with Irish issues doesn't actually take place in Ireland itself. I guess it's the nature of the demographics in Scotland. Our Irish/Ulster immigrants (depending on what they would call themselves), whether Proddy or Catholic, were all working-class. Today, they are voiced through Rangers/Celtic, and they are pretty much the scum of Scottish society. Don't mind using the word scum either, I'm a part of it, I guess I'm just adopting the language used by the oh-so-righteous pc-bridage. They are working-class, come from crappy areas, and pretty much hate each other. Ireland on the other hand is a succesful country, and it has moved on. And the rest of Britain never cared in the first place.

Plus I wonder because the pitches are the home teams property and place of work etc etc are you actually allowed the freedom to protest and the like.

A good point. There's two layers to this, that of the clubs, and that of the SFA (Scottish Football Association). Strictly speaking, it is my view that state-funded organisations like the SFA presumably is (at least partially, not sure actually) should not dictate what is politically legal and acceptable.

IMO it should be up to the clubs themselves. If Scottish nationalists want to get upset over Ranger's Orange Day or whatever as tell us we are all 'Scottish' (an underlying current in the criticism of Celtic as well btw) then they can go pleasure themselves to Braveheart, these people are becoming to me what Marxist Islamists are to Fragony.

Beskar

11-10-2010, 02:07

There is a difference between "Keep Racism out of Football" and "Put Racism in Football", if you don't understand the difference, then there is a flaw in your logic.

Rhyfelwyr

11-10-2010, 02:33

There is a difference between "Keep Racism out of Football" and "Put Racism in Football", if you don't understand the difference, then there is a flaw in your logic.

They are both political issues. They are not just campaigning to keep racism out of the game itself, they are actively attempting to influence their audience to adopt non-racist views. How dare they use the football field as a platform for their politics!

gaelic cowboy

11-10-2010, 02:51

Heh, yeah, I guess it must seem strange to some people that the continued fascination with Irish issues doesn't actually take place in Ireland itself. I guess it's the nature of the demographics in Scotland. Our Irish/Ulster immigrants (depending on what they would call themselves), whether Proddy or Catholic, were all working-class. Today, they are voiced through Rangers/Celtic, and they are pretty much the scum of Scottish society. Don't mind using the word scum either, I'm a part of it, I guess I'm just adopting the language used by the oh-so-righteous pc-bridage. They are working-class, come from crappy areas, and pretty much hate each other. Ireland on the other hand is a succesful country, and it has moved on. And the rest of Britain never cared in the first place.

Without going into any detail or socio-economic blah blah blah I have nothing in common with those people as a County Mayo farmers son who has an engineering degree I can safely say we are not the same class at all.

My grandfathers who actually fought and then laid down there arms would not be capable of comprehending these people at all, they would not recognise themselves in them as opposed to either side in this arguement whose greatest achievement is probably beating people up at pub closing time

gaelic cowboy

11-10-2010, 02:55

They are both political issues. They are not just campaigning to keep racism out of the game itself, they are actively attempting to influence their audience to adopt non-racist views. How dare they use the football field as a platform for their politics!

This raises an interesting point though actively trying to inculcate some kind of middle class ethic in these people will fail until they actually ye know become middle class an all.

Plus when it suits them in soccer they are quite happy to ignore actual war and the like such as in Milosovic and Kosovo back during the qualifiers some years back.

InsaneApache

11-10-2010, 14:32

Do they dislike the poppy for their idea of Imperialism? If so they are very misguided.

Rhyfelwyr

11-10-2010, 14:44

Do they dislike the poppy for their idea of Imperialism? If so they are very misguided.

Yes, pretty much, they are quite into Marxism. In a way I respect their views, if you think about it an Irish person is probably not going to want to wear the poppy.

This raises an interesting point though actively trying to inculcate some kind of middle class ethic in these people will fail until they actually ye know become middle class an all.

You hit the nail on the head with the class dynamic. I remember reading on another forum where a Northern Irish Catholic explained their poppy situation, he was very critical of the middle-class Alliance-supporting Catholics who wear it to be pc.

The thing is here in Scotland the class dynamic is heavily tied to national identity. Scottish nationalism is very much for the middle-classes, it makes them feel warm and fuzzy when they think they have a quaint little culture and get to read nice poetry they don't understand, plus there is a bit of snobby-style xenophobia towards the English. Instead of going the "we are all the same route", I prefer the more open but in a way more respectful xenophobia of the Rangers/Celtic fans - just accept we are different, there are good reasons why we are different.

Reminds me of what one Orangeman said regarding a republican parade that was held in Glasgow, which caused some controversy since people walked around waving flags associated with the IRA and wearing paramilitary uniforms. He didn't get all righteous and try to restrict their freedoms, he just said "They have our parades and we have ours".

How much more respectful can you be?

al Roumi

11-10-2010, 15:27

To say "lets keep politics out of football" is silly, it's not as political as it used to be maybe, but it has been a force in politics and vice versa.

That said, I'm with Beskar in questioning whether the anti-racism campaign is political though. It's a social campaign -more like "quit smoking" than "vote for x" IMO. The campaign is not saying "don't vote BNP" after all.

InsaneApache

11-10-2010, 15:51

if you think about it an Irish person is probably not going to want to wear the poppy.

Why on earth not? :inquisitive:

gaelic cowboy

11-10-2010, 16:10

Why on earth not? :inquisitive:

The heart of this goes back to the internal disagreement in Ireland itself over how independence was to be achieved here by either moderate or by violent means basically.

The Home Rule bill of 1914 was to be delayed for no longer than the duration of the WW1 and naturally everyone at the time thought the war will be over by Christmas so it will mean Home Rule some time in 1915-16. The Irish volunteers decided to march to the front to support Britain to as it were achieve freedom in Ireland and were led by John Redmond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Redmond) of the Irish Parlimentary Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Parliamentary_Party), it was a disaster for moderates as the war dragged on and helped Sinn Fein to win the the 1918 election in Ireland on an anti-conscription ticket.

Afterwards when the War of Independence proper was started the Tans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tans) pretty much burned up the middle ground with every peasants house they destroyed. Ireland is a small closely knit country and my own Granduncle marched off with Redmond and he never came back from the front, afterwards my Grandfather then joined the IRA and fought the against British forces here according to him it was the British who betrayed us and not the other way round.

Later with the Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Civil_War) the bitterness was even more intense as brother fought brother, the casualty figures are unknown for this conflict but generally people believe/believed that more people died in one year of the civil war that thirty years of shooting in the North.

It's pretty easy to see now that taking a more large scale view of the whole thing the Poppy was going to be discarded as it remembers a war which ostensibly caused a massive bitter division in my country.

Devastatin Dave

11-10-2010, 16:18

Greatest football play ever...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UIdI8khMkw

gaelic cowboy

11-10-2010, 16:19

:laugh4: brilliant it's just like Nani against Spurs no one expected it so they stood looking confused for a second and then it was too late.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWZ9be28C_E

Furunculus

11-10-2010, 16:23

politics does not belong in sport.

neither the silly anti-racism thing, nor sectarian politics.

and football sucks anyway.

gaelic cowboy

11-10-2010, 16:33

politics does not belong in sport.

neither the silly anti-racism thing, nor sectarian politics.

and football sucks anyway.

Agreed on all three points I much prefer gaelic football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_football) myself and I only have a cursory interest in soccer and rugby.

Rhyfelwyr

11-10-2010, 16:39

politics does not belong in sport.

neither the silly anti-racism thing, nor sectarian politics.

and football sucks anyway.

Pffft... boring. The rivalry is so much better when there's more than the sporting dimension to it.

Or are we still bitter after what happened after some of Rangers recent visits south of the border. (I guess this goes more for you, InsaneApache!, you like in Manchester, right?)

gaelic cowboy

11-10-2010, 16:48

Or are we still bitter after what happened after some of Rangers recent visits south of the border. (I guess this goes more for you, InsaneApache!, you like in Manchester, right?)

:inquisitive: what happened was there some kind of trouble or something

johnhughthom

11-10-2010, 17:01

:laugh4: brilliant it's just like Nani against Spurs no one expected it so they stood looking confused for a second and then it was too late.

Not really, one was a well thought out trick, Nani just took advantage of idiotic refereeing.

HoreTore

11-10-2010, 17:02

Agreed on all three points I much prefer gaelic football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_football) myself and I only have a cursory interest in soccer and rugby.

There's a reason why a billion or more plays football, while you can count those involved in "gaelic football"(or any other silly nonsense) on one hand.

Football is simply superior.

Also, I have a feeling that those who proclaim an interest in those silly sports are mainly into it just for the sake of being different to everyone else, just so that whenever football is discussed they have an excuse to not get involved and stay in the corner muttering "football sucks".

Not really, one was a well thought out trick, Nani just took advantage of idiotic refereeing.

Don't blame the ref, it's not his fault Gomes is a complete idiot.

Rule number one: Play until the whistle is blown.

drone

11-10-2010, 17:06

This should get good, Rhyfelwyr is accusing IA of being a ManU fan. ~D

Strike For The South

11-10-2010, 17:10

Don't blame the ref, it's not his fault Gomes is a complete idiot.

Rule number one: Play until the whistle is blown.

Except when the linesman is signaling a free kick

And that play is illegal DD one is not allowed to snap the ball over his shoulder

johnhughthom

11-10-2010, 17:12

Don't blame the ref, it's not his fault Gomes is a complete idiot.

Rule number one: Play until the whistle is blown.

I agree, Gomes was an idiot. Still, referees should only play the advantage when necessary, was there a likely counter attack on? No, the free kick should have been given. I know that by the letter of the law the referee did no wrong, the advantage rule is open to interpretation however, and the referees interpretation in this instance was moronic. I hate the criticism referees get, it's a thankless task and managers and players should be banned or fined more often over their conduct towards them, referees don't help themselves when they do things like that.

I have to say though, what really bugs me about that goal is Nani's celebration. You've taken advantage of a referee's mistake, at least have the decency to act like it.

gaelic cowboy

11-10-2010, 17:18

There's a reason why a billion or more plays football, while you can count those involved in "gaelic football"(or any other silly nonsense) on one hand.

Football is simply superior.

I'm sorry Horetore but it is boooorrrriiiiiinnnnnggggg and only becomes exciting when we add a frisson of politics or tribalism to it through internationals etc.

Gaelic football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_football) run by the GAA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_Athletic_Association) is played here and is the majority sport in terms of participation and when one includes hurling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurling) also a GAA sport then soccer and rugby are basically minority interests in this country.

Were not being "differant" we ye know actually enjoy it Horetore

Gaelic football

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvT76M5KsBg&feature=related

Hurling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUUJ855O1gg

Incidently there is easily 160,000 people in those two videos Horetore the All Ireland Final in both Hurling and Football is massive here and wherever there are Irish people it is sure to be shown in the various Irish pubs abroad

HoreTore

11-10-2010, 17:19

some boring videos about some homosexuals

*falls asleep*

Except when the linesman is signaling a free kick

And that play is illegal DD one is not allowed to snap the ball over his shoulder

Does the linesman decide when there is a free kick or not? Nope, so only an idiot would pay any attention to what he's doing.

Strike For The South

11-10-2010, 17:21

Well I'm man enough to admit it moved

johnhughthom

11-10-2010, 17:22

As a Unionist living in Belfast I have always admired the community spirit engendered by GAA. Towns, villages and counties come together for the teams and they really are just part of the community. They can quite exciting sports to watch, if there's no soccer on.

Furunculus

11-10-2010, 17:34

Pffft... boring. The rivalry is so much better when there's more than the sporting dimension to it.

Or are we still bitter after what happened after some of Rangers recent visits south of the border. (I guess this goes more for you, InsaneApache!, you like in Manchester, right?)

i am completely unaware of what Rangers might have done, probably oweing to a complete disinterest in sports outside mountainbiking and ladies mud-wrestling, in addition to not having or watching TV.

Rhyfelwyr

11-10-2010, 17:40

i am completely unaware of what Rangers might have done, probably oweing to a complete disinterest in sports outside mountainbiking and ladies mud-wrestling, in addition to not having or watching TV.

It was supposedly the worst night of violence in the city since the blitz, sheesh, it wasn't limited to the sports news...

al Roumi

11-10-2010, 17:57

It was supposedly the worst night of violence in the city since the blitz, sheesh, it wasn't limited to the sports news...

I thought Rangers got panned in that game...

Furunculus

11-10-2010, 18:06

It was supposedly the worst night of violence in the city since the blitz, sheesh, it wasn't limited to the sports news...

the joy of getting your news on the internet is that you browse by headline, and anything with football in it probably didn't even register.

HoreTore

11-10-2010, 18:16

the joy of getting your news on the internet is that you browse by headline, and anything with football in it probably didn't even register.

Yes, sports and such are so booring....

I mean, actually moving your body, that's heresy!!

Rhyfelwyr

11-10-2010, 19:00

InsaneApache

11-10-2010, 19:15

Or are we still bitter after what happened after some of Rangers recent visits south of the border. (I guess this goes more for you, InsaneApache!, you like in Manchester, right?)

I was born there. I didn't say I liked the place. :laugh4:

InsaneApache

11-10-2010, 19:19

This should get good, Rhyfelwyr is accusing IA of being a ManU fan. ~D

That's fighting talk. :boxing:

gaelic cowboy

11-10-2010, 19:21

On a vaguely related note to Ireland here, it seems in a follow up to the revival of obscure blasphemy laws, the Irish state has took to forcing convicts to climb holy mountains (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11718467). Home Rule is Rome Rule! I told you so!

Is "go back to Mayo" an insult in Ireland or something?

No it's not a common insult and as the thing shows the fella climbed it for charity afterwards and was very sorry by all accounts after about his behaviour to the Garda in question.(in an oblique way it ties into the "To Hell or to Connacht" statement of course seeing as I live in Connacht that means the rest of ye must live in Hell :laugh4:)

Judges in Ireland tend to have a broad power in this regard as people are often ordered to put money into the courthouse poorbox as a fine for say disorderly conduct.

Mind you the Judge would never have ordered a Protestant at least I have never heard of it if thats what your wondering, but in any case Croagh Patrick is almost a secular tourist attraction these days the view is fantastic and the climb is difficult enough to give a sense of accomplishment.

Furunculus

11-11-2010, 11:00

Yes, sports and such are so booring....

I mean, actually moving your body, that's heresy!!

i beg to differ:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?36234-Family-Photo-Albums-and-Websites...&p=2304708&viewfull=1#post2304708
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?36234-Family-Photo-Albums-and-Websites...&p=2324419&viewfull=1#post2324419
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?36234-Family-Photo-Albums-and-Websites...&p=2337293&viewfull=1#post2337293

just don't see the attraction of footbag.