Looks like the brits are still a fine people

[HoreTore]

BBC linky (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11726822)

THIS is how a protest is made! The French have finally been outdone!



Smash the buggers.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Everyone likes a riot. *appropriate smilie I can't be bothered to find*

But on a more serious note, what exactly are they angry at? Do they plan on funding Uni's with money that doesn't exist?

[HoreTore]

Do they plan on funding Uni's with money that doesn't exist?

Take it from the elderly, after all it's their fault we're in this mess. You could do it in a sneaky way though, with a special tax on After Eight for example....

Or the military, that's also a pure expense. But trying to save money by cutting investments as opposed to expenses is idiotic.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Whoever caused the problem, it doesn't change the fact we have to deal with it now. How would we punish the elderly instead... they've got it bad enough already I think.

[HoreTore]

Whoever caused the problem, it doesn't change the fact we have to deal with it now. How would we punish the elderly instead... they've got it bad enough already I think.

The elderly will have to learn that there are consequences to their actions, there is no get out of jail card in real life.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Meh, my Gran gets a pension of something like £90 a week, I'm not going to get upset because some student can't get another x thousands funding so he can party for another year.

Man I am in a confrontational mood today, but really, University is a joke, don't know if you read my Frontroom thread a few days ago.

[HoreTore]

Cutting uni funding is like trying to save money by saving gas and staying home instead of driving to work. It's pure nonsense.

EDIT: Yeah, who needs teachers, engineers, nurses, etc etc....

[Rhyfelwyr]

Depends on what they are studying at Uni. If it is a useful profession, and will help train them for a position that the job-market has a demand for, then what you say it true.

But with things like teachers etc... we have so many of them it is ridiculous, many are now having to work for nothing just to get a foot in the school system. And that's not even going into courses like Sports Medicine or Media Studies or whatever.

[HoreTore]

But with things like teachers etc... we have so many of them it is ridiculous, many are now having to work for nothing just to get a foot in the school system. And that's not even going into courses like Sports Medicine or Media Studies or whatever.

Send 'em over here then, there's a critical need for teachers over here... Which is the primary reason I chose to be one above the other stuff that interested me a few years ago.

I can basically pick and choose where and what I want to work with. And it'll only get worse in the future, much of the teaching staff is aging and due to retire over the next few years... IIRC we'll have a shortage of around 10.000 teachers in five years, even though recruitment is going up.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Your gran gets £90,- state handout a week? When I studied I could only claim €75,- a month and I am expected to pay that back in due course. Where are those thousands you speak of Rhyfelwyr? <_<

[gaelic cowboy]

Send 'em over here then, there's a critical need for teachers over here... Which is the primary reason I chose to be one above the other stuff that interested me a few years ago.

I can basically pick and choose where and what I want to work with. And it'll only get worse in the future, much of the teaching staff is aging and due to retire over the next few years... IIRC we'll have a shortage of around 10.000 teachers in five years, even though recruitment is going up.

Norway routinely cordons off skilled professions with red tape etc to prevent such use of skilled foreign labour your unions would never allow it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Send 'em over here then, there's a critical need for teachers over here... Which is the primary reason I chose to be one above the other stuff that interested me a few years ago.

I can basically pick and choose where and what I want to work with. And it'll only get worse in the future, much of the teaching staff is aging and due to retire over the next few years... IIRC we'll have a shortage of around 10.000 teachers in five years, even though recruitment is going up.

So we educate them and you profit?


Your gran gets £90,- state handout a week? When I studied I could only claim €75,- a month and I am expected to pay that back in due course. Where are those thousands you speak of Rhyfelwyr? <_<

It's a pension so she presumably contributed some herself. Anyway, I get less than that, the point is you can still work when you are at Uni. And it's the education itself that costs thousands.

[HoreTore]

Norway routinely cordons off skilled professions with red tape etc to prevent such use of skilled foreign labour your unions would never allow it.

Yes....... Like how we don't have any foreign doctors, nurses, carpenters, etc etc........

And that's ignoring the fact that as a fellow EU-member, we cannot ban Brits.

What we do is demand that foreign workers are paid the same as a Norweigan worker. Are you able to name a profession we have "cordoned off"...?


So we educate them and you profit?

Don't worry, there are plenty of Norwegians looking to work in the UK as well, that's a little thing I like to call an "exchange" ~;)

[gaelic cowboy]

Enter the Bank now fairly soon with American style college loans in Britain and Ireland.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I get less than that, the point is you can still work when you are at Uni. And it's the education itself that costs thousands.
True, education is expensive. I was just wondering where the thousands came from.

However I would submit that Universities only get a small portion of their funding through state subsidy or grants or similar programmes; at least the uni I went to acquires rather more funds through applied research (typically funded by private enterprises) or through spin offs of successful research projects.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yes....... Like how we don't have any foreign doctors, nurses, carpenters, etc etc........

And that's ignoring the fact that as a fellow EU-member, we cannot ban Brits.

What we do is demand that foreign workers are paid the same as a Norweigan worker. Are you able to name a profession we have "cordoned off"...?



Don't worry, there are plenty of Norwegians looking to work in the UK as well, that's a little thing I like to call an "exchange" ~;)

Eh Norway isnt in the EU

and your only covered to work in Norway's oil and gas industry unless you do Norways safety courses yet OPITO courses cover everyone else trust me I checked.

[HoreTore]

Eh Norway isnt in the EU

As far as working in Norway is concerned: yes, we are.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Don't worry, there are plenty of Norwegians looking to work in the UK as well, that's a little thing I like to call an "exchange" ~;)

So suddenly we're a fan of the free market and the free movement of labour?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The only way to close the funding gap that is fair is to cut places and close universities. Take the bottom 20% of Uni's, close, sell off their buildings and return their funding to more worthy institutions, cut places at other Universities by 30% and you're done.

Those clever enough to get a place will, those who aren't won't. If you really want it you can keep applying until someone takes you. While we're at it, we should tripple the workload of the average undergraduate, they spend far too much time drinking and partying right now.

[gaelic cowboy]

To be honest I dont see why they couldnt just shrink all those arts degrees down to two years etc.

[Rhyfelwyr]

While we're at it, we should tripple the workload of the average undergraduate.

Try it and that'll be me smashing into the Conservative offices next time!

[gaelic cowboy]

Try it and that'll be me smashing into the Conservative offices next time!

Tell me Rhyfelwyr what colour was Rachel Rileys skirt today??? bah students in arts courses have loads of time

[rory_20_uk]

When 5% go to uni it's sustainable for the government to fund it.
When 50% go to uni it's not.

That's 3 years lost taxes for those that should have jobs, and no, people are not vastly cleverer. There are just more crap degrees and teh standard for jobs is artificially raised to a BSc / BA as so many people have one.

~:smoking:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Tell me Rhyfelwyr what colour was Rachel Rileys skirt today??? bah students in arts courses have loads of time

I was much too busy vegetating in front of my PC today, have to say I missed Countdown. And Deal or no Deal! And that funny programme they now have on BBC about the Canadian mounty that solves crimes in New York. It is so funny, I thought it couldn't get better than Doctor Sloan gliding aroud Community General in his rollerskates and telling criminals how he solves their crimes while tap-dancing with them, but this goes the extra mile.

Fair point about the degree length, the BBC did an article on just that matter recently, can't find it now though. 2 years would have been more than enough for what I've had to do.

[gaelic cowboy]

I was much too busy vegetating in front of my PC today, have to say I missed Countdown. And Deal or no Deal! And that funny programme they now have on BBC about the Canadian mounty that solves crimes in New York. It is so funny, I thought it couldn't get better than Doctor Sloan gliding aroud Community General in his rollerskates and telling criminals how he solves their crimes while tap-dancing with them, but this goes the extra mile.

Due South (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South)

Years ago RTE used show that Diagnosis Murder and I specifically remember an episode with an actual vampire in it :laugh4:

[Beskar]

Try it and that'll be me smashing into the Conservative offices next time!

yeah if horetore did that, you might have do the half average workload of a real degree.

[tibilicus]

The University funding issue highlights a bigger problem with the state system as a whole. Although popular belief will tell us that since the 80s, the public sector has been cut back more and more, this isn't the case. Relative state spending has gone up, it happened even under Thatcher, the problem is demand on the state is so great that demand simply exceeds availability of resources with in the state my model.

R.E universities, my personal solution would be to cut the number of places drastically. That doesn't mean that people can't go to university, how about we just adopt a different system. Those who want to go to proper universities can go when they're 18 and those who would normally go to a former polly can postpone their education for a couple of years. If they genuine need the skills from a university course, they can go back and study part-time later on and who knows, maybe even their employer might support them.

Point being it's wrong that so many people should start their lives crippled by debt, it only leads to a vicious cycle of repayments and life long debt. University can be free for those who need it, we do however need to fundamentally change our system before we end up at the awful American mode.

[gaelic cowboy]

R.E universities, my personal solution would be to cut the number of places drastically. That doesn't mean that people can't go to university, how about we just adopt a different system. Those who want to go to proper universities can go when they're 18 and those who would normally go to a former polly can postpone their education for a couple of years. If they genuine need the skills from a university course, they can go back and study part-time later on and who knows, maybe even their employer might support them.

If UK is anything like Ireland then employers basically demanded the Pollytechnics etc become something more to supply more maintainence technicians and masses of engineers, draughtsmen etc for the "Smart Economy"

Uni's can be poor at supplying these types of people for industry at least in UK/Ireland

[Rhyfelwyr]

Due South (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South)

Years ago RTE used show that Diagnosis Murder and I specifically remember an episode with an actual vampire in it :laugh4:

lol, I remember that episode as well! I always wondered what would happen if they did something like that in an otherwise reality based TV show... Dick van Dyke is the man. :cool:


yeah if horetore did that, you might have do the half average workload of a real degree.

A bit of jealousy there methinks. Anyway, I am doing real degree, at a real Uni, that will get me a real job. With a real two hours classes a week. Ha!

[drone]

Due South (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_South)
Diefenbaker ruled. :yes:

[gaelic cowboy]

lol, I remember that episode as well! I always wondered what would happen if they did something like that in an otherwise reality based TV show... Dick van Dyke is the man. :cool:

The Dick Van Dyke Show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dick_Van_Dyke_Show#Legacy) basically invented the sitcom that we would recocnise

[gaelic cowboy]

Diefenbaker ruled. :yes:

The absurd politeness and weird rituals were the icing on this shows cake

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To be honest I dont see why they couldnt just shrink all those arts degrees down to two years etc.

Better to double the amount in them, then I wouldn't be marking papers without basic formatting or comprehension.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Better to double the amount in them, then I wouldn't be marking papers without basic formatting or comprehension.

Actually, this is a much better suggestion. There is not even any point in writing an 800 word paper. The average essay is 2,000 words, which is also far from ideal. Heck, my dissertation is 15,000 words and I wish it was triple that to make all the points I need to.

[HoreTore]

So suddenly we're a fan of the free market and the free movement of labour?

I'm against the concept of "borders" by principle, of course I'm all in favour of free movement of labour.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm against the concept of "borders" by principle, of course I'm all in favour of free movement of labour.

What?! I thought international capitalism and the free exchange of labour/goods is what allowed the western bourgeoisie to artificially extend their time in power, even Marx said imperialism gave capitalism a new lease on life. The decadent west thrives on the fruits of the labour of the little boy working in an Indian sweatshop!

[Furunculus]

Looks like the brits are still a fine people

THIS is how a protest is made! The French have finally been outdone!

No, they are scum.

Students have a legitimate right to protest, but these, well i wouldn't cry if they were dragged down back alleys by french riot police.

Now they know how to party! :party3:

[Beskar]

A bit of jealousy there methinks. Anyway, I am doing real degree, at a real Uni, that will get me a real job. With a real two hours classes a week. Ha!

'real degree' = :laugh:
'real Uni' = :laugh:
'real job' = I don't think KFC comes under that...

Sorry, but at the real universities, there is no two hours per week. There is 2 hours peer week per module at least, and there is usually at least 3 modules. This is no even accounting for all the pre-seminar work, readings and lectures themselves, the hours listed were just seminars. I even asked friends and family members, and they say the same in other universities. So with Oxford (1st), Cambridge (2nd), St Andrews (4th), Lancaster (6th) being accounted... It isn't jealousy, I find it insulting.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I, for one, applaud internal British resistance to global Anglo-capitalist oppression. :balloon2:

[Rhyfelwyr]

'real degree' = :laugh:
'real Uni' = :laugh:
'real job' = I don't think KFC comes under that...

Sorry, but at the real universities, there is no two hours per week. There is 2 hours peer week per module at least, and there is usually at least 3 modules. This is no even accounting for all the pre-seminar work, readings and lectures themselves, the hours listed were just seminars. I even asked friends and family members, and they say the same in other universities. So with Oxford (1st), Cambridge (2nd), St Andrews (4th), Lancaster (6th) being accounted... It isn't jealousy, I find it insulting.

I meant jealous at my lack of a workload, not my Uni. :tongue2:

Anyway, my two hours are for one module. My dissertation counts for my other two this term (3 in total each term over 4 terms in 3rd/4th year. I'm pretty sure Glasgow counts as a real Uni. And I don't plan to build a career in KFC, don't you have a part-time job?

[HoreTore]

What?! I thought

Then you should do some more thinking ~;)

[Rhyfelwyr]

Pffft what kind of leftist are you?

[HoreTore]

Pffft what kind of leftist are you?

The awesome kind.

[Rhyfelwyr]

You mean the wishy-washy liberal kind. What happened to the real leftists? The leftists that called for the extermination of ethnic minorities? The leftists that called for prohibition? The leftists that wanted people to work for their share of the fruits of production?

You're just a pick and choose leftist!

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Depends on what they are studying at Uni. If it is a useful profession, and will help train them for a position that the job-market has a demand for, then what you say it true.

But with things like teachers etc... we have so many of them it is ridiculous, many are now having to work for nothing just to get a foot in the school system. And that's not even going into courses like Sports Medicine or Media Studies or whatever.


My brother has both a BS and a MA in History/Liberal Arts and.... He is worknig at Target's. That proves Rhy's point quite well.



Why do your Brits complain about this? We pay (I'm not,going to community college :D) $25,000 a year and your Brits pay what, only 5,000 or 10,000 a year? Give me a break. Go out and get a job you bums :yes: :laugh:.

http://www.nataliedee.com/111205/no-no-no-no.jpg

[HoreTore]

You mean the wishy-washy liberal kind. What happened to the real leftists? The leftists that called for the extermination of ethnic minorities? The leftists that called for prohibition? The leftists that wanted people to work for their share of the fruits of production?

You're just a pick and choose leftist!

Correct - I'm a social democrat ~;)

[tibilicus]

'real degree' = :laugh:
'real Uni' = :laugh:
'real job' = I don't think KFC comes under that...

Sorry, but at the real universities, there is no two hours per week. There is 2 hours peer week per module at least, and there is usually at least 3 modules. This is no even accounting for all the pre-seminar work, readings and lectures themselves, the hours listed were just seminars. I even asked friends and family members, and they say the same in other universities. So with Oxford (1st), Cambridge (2nd), St Andrews (4th), Lancaster (6th) being accounted... It isn't jealousy, I find it insulting.

Quite a lot of intellectual elitism coming from you Beskar, got to say I'm not impressed. Hate to break it to you but unless you went to Oxford and got a first, then there's always going to be someone claiming that their education is better than yours. What would you define as a real university anyway? As far as hours go as well, that's another poor indicator as hours vary per university and more so per subject. I currently have three hours worth of lectures per week from history (one module) and yet my two politics modules only have 2 hours per week of lectures between them. The work load for both is still the same however, it's just structure. Oh, and before you do bring it up, I do go to a "real" university, if by real you mean Russell group. I personally don't think this is a fair indication of a "real" university though.

[Rhyfelwyr]

How boring. I think I'm going to call everyone to the left of me a communist, just for the lulz.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Quite a lot of intellectual elitism coming from you Beskar, got to say I'm not impressed. Hate to break it to you but unless you went to Oxford and got a first, then there's always going to be someone claiming that their education is better than yours. What would you define as a real university anyway? As far as hours go as well, that's another poor indicator as hours vary per university and more so per subject. I currently have three hours worth of lectures per week from history (one module) and yet my two politics modules only have 2 hours per week of lectures between them. The work load for both is still the same however, it's just structure. Oh, and before you do bring it up, I do go to a "real" university, if by real you mean Russell group. I personally don't think this is a fair indication of a "real" university though.

Well, I'm not studying at a Russell Group University, and I only have one elcture and one Seminar a week (three hours)

but that's because I'm the one teaching!

Seriously though guys, enough with the measuring. If you din't go to Oxford 20 years ago your degree probably isn't worth much academically - live with it.

[rory_20_uk]

Oxford??!? Cambridge is #1 Not that I got the grades, I had to go to Imperial.

~:smoking:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oxford??!? Cambridge is #1 Not that I got the grades, I had to go to Imperial.

~:smoking:

Oxford 20 years ago.

I didn't get the grades either, by the by.

[Rhyfelwyr]

To get back to topic, there is a serious side to all of this, looks like the idiot that threw the fire extinguisher off the roof may (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1328665/TUITION-FEES-PROTEST-Thug-hurled-extinguisher-roof-police.html) get what he deserves.

Besides the idiotic act itself, he didn't even think to wear a mask, so if you scroll the article you'll see a perfect shot of his face. Someone must be feeling nervous tonight...

[HoreTore]

To get back to topic, there is a serious side to all of this, looks like the idiot that threw the fire extinguisher off the roof may (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1328665/TUITION-FEES-PROTEST-Thug-hurled-extinguisher-roof-police.html) get what he deserves.

Besides the idiotic act itself, he didn't even think to wear a mask, so if you scroll the article you'll see a perfect shot of his face. Someone must be feeling nervous tonight...

One mans terrorist is another mans liberator.

:daisy: the police.

[tibilicus]

Oxford??!? Cambridge is #1 Not that I got the grades, I had to go to Imperial.

~:smoking:

You say it like you reluctantly had to take up a place at one of the best universities in the world. ~;)

[Rhyfelwyr]

One mans terrorist is another mans liberator.

:daisy: the police.

I hope this is just you being provocative. That could easily have killed someone, in fact from the video, at the time of it being thrown, I would guess there was a 50% chance it woud kill. It's infinitely worse that smashing trashing 1,000 party headquarters and if this sort of thing happens more often such idiots are going to put their fellow protesters in real danger.

[Beskar]

I meant jealous at my lack of a workload, not my Uni. :tongue2:

Anyway, my two hours are for one module. My dissertation counts for my other two this term (3 in total each term over 4 terms in 3rd/4th year. I'm pretty sure Glasgow counts as a real Uni. And I don't plan to build a career in KFC, don't you have a part-time job?


Quite a lot of intellectual elitism coming from you Beskar, got to say I'm not impressed. Hate to break it to you but unless you went to Oxford and got a first, then there's always going to be someone claiming that their education is better than yours. What would you define as a real university anyway? As far as hours go as well, that's another poor indicator as hours vary per university and more so per subject. I currently have three hours worth of lectures per week from history (one module) and yet my two politics modules only have 2 hours per week of lectures between them. The work load for both is still the same however, it's just structure. Oh, and before you do bring it up, I do go to a "real" university, if by real you mean Russell group. I personally don't think this is a fair indication of a "real" university though.

I apologise, there is some misunderstanding, which I will clear up first.

I am not being elitist, by the definition I am not actively saying "my university is better than yours". In short, I have a BSc and a MSc, and I had to work very hard for them, along side having a demanding part-time job which required 12-hour shifts and I had to completely self-finance myself with no aid from my parents (they don't have money). There was virtually no room for slacking and those who did slack walked away with having a third (aka, waste of a university attendance). There was constant demands on time and constant assessment.

The thing was, Rhyfelwyr was going around in a few threads and there were a couple of other comments about 2 hours a week, with the rest just doing nothing at all, saying the complete university experience is a blow-over which required no effort or commitment. Naturally, I have been in an environment with constant work and deadlines, having to work part-time, and pretty much only time I got any serious free time was after the term had ended (Xmas, Easter, Summer). So the issue is, is some one turned around and completely fobbing off University, I find that insulting and simply think they do not know what they are talking about, so they must either be on a waste of time 'art degree' or simply at a University which doesn't care.

So it isn't educational elitism, it is more of a case that I feel like I am being insulted and the work and effort I had to put in is being disgraced as I end up getting branded in the same category.

So when it comes to Rory possibly joking about University experience (He did Medical Science, so probably would be similar to me), however, the whole two hour thing is a complete disconnection.

[Hosakawa Tito]

What, no soccer match that day? Violence won't get them anywhere. :no:

If you can't afford that particular college, then find one you can afford or do something else.

[Furunculus]

we had two jokes when i was at uni:

1) media studies students who had about three-four hours of lectures a week where we had twelve-sixteen.
2) geographers who'd opted for the pussy version of earth science, when anyone knew that stuff of
quaternary age or younger simply wasn't worth looking at.

people who wanted a truly character building university experience spent hours on the side of mountains in non-stop sleet battling hypothermia as we scratched notes with numb fingers into notebooks. my dissertation was six weeks in the outer hebrides!

of course the last laugh was had by the media studies wasters and geography pussies, because we were too expensive to train so they canned my department the year i graduated, after 125 years of sterling service. :D

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well as you can see it is not about the lecture hours because when you think about 12-16 is also a pretty small amount, school kids must do 30 odd, doesn't mean they worked harder than you.

[InsaneApache]

I say, I find myself in full agreement with this chaps view on students....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F2LfRgJfYE

Is it a crime to have a pint without fear of being nudged by a student? :laugh4:

[Hosakawa Tito]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l5EYY_cyig&feature=player_embedded