Best counter unit for warrior monks?

[dlo_olb]

Hi all,

i am new to shogun, when playing against computer, i consistently lost to warrior monks; what is the best counter unit to warrior monks???

thanks!

[barocca]

Panzers?

seriously though, Monks are mean.
I usually try to hit monks with monks, or a combination of units depending on what I have avalable to me.
One thing to remember, they don't like get shot at.

------------------
DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

[theforce]

baccora is right. the best way is to fight monks with monks. You can also take advantage that they have low armour so try to reduce their numbers and morale with some serious firepower http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://www.darksideshogunclan.cjb.net
Enter the Darkside...

[TooCool]

Monk don't have much armor so before contact, try to shoot at them. During melee, try to attack monk with 2 units: one to face them and another unit to flank them. With this tactic, you can beat monk with (two) yari samurai. You can also use cavalry unit (try to flank too, even with heavy cav)

[Naughty_Plumber]

I use either monks against monks, HC against them or YC against them. It works for me even though you get loads of casualties with the monks or YC.

------------------
HnT

[Tenchimuyo]

Yes, I think HC and MW are the best against MW.

[Didz]

I don't usually use monks in my armies but when faced with them on a battlefield I usually do two things.

1) Target them with everything that shoots.
2) Target them with overwhelming numbers of my best melee troops. ND,HC,YC.

I have even managed to swamp a unit of warrior monks with several units of Ashigaru but I wouldn't recomend this approach.

One other alternative is to use Naginata's on 'Hold Formation' orders to block their charge and allow your missile troops to use them as target practice as they try and hack their way through.

[Tachikaze]

The last thing Didz wrote is very important.

Monks are expensive and almost naked except for bed sheets. Engage them with armored troops and rain arrows on them from behind. They will lose a lot more men to your fire than your own units will, and they are more expensive anyway, so it's a good trade.

I also echo the line about hitting them "with everything that shoots". I would gladly give up all the arrows a SA unit has to destroy a Warrior Monk unit.

------------------
A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[solypsist]

I've faced off against the all-warrior monk army in campaign games (Kaga province, I think) and it can freally be something. Sometimes I even go the extra mile to make a mostly Cav Archer army just to kill some off before withdrawing. Unfortunately, late in the campaign, the Kaga warrior-monks sometimes will have teppo.
I've personally always thought that so many warrior-monks running around was a bit (to mis-use the word in a game setting) unrealistic. Maybe only two or three units per army max. would have been more balanced.

[ShaiHulud]

On the other hand, since a unit is only 60 men, it isn't a LOT of WM, nor would 16 units be a lot. They put together much larger forces for battles.

------------------
Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[BanzaiZAP]

Also, they're one of the most expensive units in the game, so if you're up against 16 WM, they're probably all low honor. If he had enough koku to get 16 high honor WM units, then you should have had plenty of cash to have much higher honor units. Honor 6 archers can be devastating to lightly armored troops! That monk unit will be at half strength by the time they reach your lines.

-- B)

[OUT4BLOOD]

mmmmmmm high honour ashis mmmmmmm

[FeartheolD]

Ys on hold and Musks Firing through their ranks will destroy a monk rush.


------------------
http://feartheold.homestead.com/files/fear_the_old.gif
Keep you exits clear and your needles clean

[barocca]

You must admit tho' Panzers would work well..
lol

------------------
DoragonBarocca of Clan Doragon (http://clandragon2.homestead.com/Dragon01.html)

[Hosakawa Tito]

Wait'll I get my grenadiers!Anybody got a light? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Tito

[Dwimmerlaik]

A combined HC and WM charge will do for those fanatics in white bedsheets

------------------
To be happy it is necessary not to be too intelligent
- Flaubert-

http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/ff4summon/indra.gif

[JoBeare]

Hot lead
followed with a Yari to the head
will leave
those fanatic monks dead

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Put your teppo on hold formation instead of skirmish. Then use YC's to outflank the monks and charge the monks from the rear. The combined guns and horses will cause the monks to lose moral and should route quickly instead of fighting to the last man like they usually do. The comment about using high honored YA would also be helpful.

JoBeare

[Bushido_Bandit]

when facing monks just make sure u have a sufficient number of archery/gunpowder units guarded with melee troops.

[OUT4BLOOD]

hmmmmmm a question whats the point of taking up a monk and hvy cav just 2 kill monks THATS EXACTLY WHAT UR OPPONENT WANTS!!!!!

GEEZ

HE WILL HAVE MORE UNITS 2 FLANK NOW!!!!!

[Slyspy]

The best unit to use against a monk unit is another monk unit. That is why they can be an unbalancing factor in the game since the scissors-paper-stone system does not apply to them. As an aside, I've got to wonder whether the new expansion units will include this sort of balancing.

------------------
"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[Heims30]

You cannot stop warrior monks, you can barely hope to contain them! We cannot be stopped! Our religion makes us stong, not weak like christians! We see the futility of life, and are therefore not afraid to lose our lives!


Seriously though, I've defended many provinces with just monks. Normal level, outnumbered at least 2 to 1, many times more, and I've turned to AI back. There's not much you can do to stop monks, just hold them off long enough to kill the enemy taisho.

[Naughty_Plumber]

Personally i hate using yari Sam against warrior monks. You could have some cav archers just harrasing them as they come closer and the WM will never catch them. So if they do have an all monk army then their honor will not be the highest so it could be quite effective.

------------------
HnT

[Vanya]

The monks seek ascension to nirvana by rejecting worldly pleasures, since those are viewed upon as forces that bring about suffering. The best way to beat the monks then, is with geishas... tempt them with the pleasures of the flesh... when their mental resistance to the sensual nature of these master assassins caves in, the geishas can strike them down in a moment of passion! You can take additional pleasure in knowing those religious zealots will reincarnate as a rat or something, because their temptation will set their stride backwards in their quest for nirvana.

But alas, EA did not add the Battlefield Geisha to the expansion pack... So send naked ashigaru forth in battle instead. Perhaps some of those monks will nonetheless give in to the pleasures of the flesh...

[Minagawa Daimon]

sick, sick world

[ingram77331]

will forming a box around the monks with ya or ysams eliminate the monks.

Hey guys all you need to defeat 1 monk is a small archer and a simple ya. All hon2.

Fire with the archer and the monk will be reduced by maybe 15 or 20 men. Then charge with the sa. With the ya go behind the monk quicky and rear him.

It works, playetested it many times. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us...
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/evil.jpg

[Koga No Goshi]

That works provided getting your archers and ya close enough to attack the monk doesn't mean you get decimated by his 4-unit musket line first. The monks are usually well behind it.



------------------
Koga no Goshi

Why did you bring 16 Female Ashigaru? Keep clicking weather, they're only strong one week a month.

[shingenmitch2]

errr, ummm Koga?

If you check the original post, he is having trouble against the AI in single play. Terazawa is correct in that instance... Obviously the multi play is much different.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[NinjaKilla]

Try not to fight the damn things unless you've got the advantage of ground.

Failing that, halt their charge with YS and then charge them with ND (which I reckon are about the best unit in the game)

The rule I try to implement, is try not to fight a unit unless you can beat it, if that means running away so that you can gain the initiative then go for it.


------------------
- Our girls fall for samurai and they'll go chasing after them.
- If the bandits come they'll cut our heads off. We'll worry about the girls later.

From: Seven Samurai

[OUT4BLOOD]

lol tera but since when do you only ever face one unit in shogun and even if you do do that tacic vs a monk rush, to defeat one enemy monk unit takes up two of your precious slots ...... personally i have never had trouble with monks rushers by the time they get to me my ca and musks have shot them to pieces and they have 3/2 CA charge in their ass when they get tired for people that do have a problem just ask for a rematch and take his army ...... if he has the same army you have an equal chance if he has a balenced one you can take your reveneg and see if its easy or takes good knowledege to rush...

Haha maskie no terror http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

The weakness of the monk rush is because its a rush...

Easy. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us...
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/evil.jpg

[DarkSword]

i have never meet a monk rusher I didn't like !!!!...ehehehhe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[NARF]

Wait a second, Monks are equipped with the Naginata. Why arent naginata even close to them in melee. I mean they have the same weapon.

[NinjaKilla]

Only one thing beats the monk rush and that the Red Tide.

------------------
- Our girls fall for samurai and they'll go chasing after them.
- If the bandits come they'll cut our heads off. We'll worry about the girls later.

From: Seven Samurai

[Shuko]

Quote Originally posted by NARF:
Wait a second, Monks are equipped with the Naginata. Why arent naginata even close to them in melee. I mean they have the same weapon.[/QUOTE]


not quite, the W/Ms often had better weapons and were fanatical in battle whilst the naginata were samurai with armour who used a sword blade that was wider than usual and curved towards the point (this was mounted on a 1 metre handle and was awkward to use compared to a yari spear). Some of the W/M were highly trained as well.



------------------
"Uchigatana" or the 'hitting' sword, 60cm long,wielded with one hand,easily splits plate armour. Musashi says "Whenever you cross swords with an enemy you must not think of cutting him either strongly or weakly; just think of cutting and killing him".