Which are better: Peltastai Makedonikoi (PM) or Hypaspistai (H)?

[boxleitnerb]

Which unit is better (and against what)?
The differences I see from the unit stats:

PM:
Weapon (aside from javelin): sword, attack 13, lethality 0.13
Defense: 12, 4, 13 (armor, shield, skill)

H:
Primary weapon: sword, attack 12, lethality 0.225
Secondary weapon: spear, attack 17, lethality 0.13
Defense: 14, 4, 11 (armor, shield, skill)

Body mass is roughly the same (1.2 vs. 1.22), as is charge bonus, morale and soldier count.
What puzzles me is that I have never seen the Hypaspistai use 2 weapons - what's up with that? Do they only have one?

Also I was wondering how the spear bonus against cavalry works. In the export units file there is no entry for such a bonus for most spearmen, but it exists for a handful of units.

So there seems to be like a "normal" spear bonus that's a given for EVERY spear unit and then an extra bonus. The following entries are from the original BI txt file:

spear = Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry
spear_bonus_x = attack bonus against cavalry. x = 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 12

Also posted here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=8449096#post8449096

[Lazy O]

Both Useless. Regular Peltast and Thorakitai or Agrianian works much better

[Fluvius Camillus]

Totally depends on the purpose.

Also don't overestimate the spears of the hypaspistai, they will have their swords most of the time. They only use the spears when charging and a short while after you tell them to use them. They will not catch a cavalry charge well like Hoplitai do.

I use PM mainly as flankers and if needed as defending heavy infantry unit. With the hypaspistai it's the other way around, I use them primarily as fighters on the thick fighting in the flank and if they break through they can also flank.

With the AS I have a very useful tactic with infantry flanking, I use the hypaspistai to pin down the enemy and then flank with PM and infantry guild warriors. The enemy will be torned to shreds (not to mention the Hetairoi and Kataphractoi charges).

~Fluvius

[boxleitnerb]

How can you tell the H to use a specific weapon? Does it work with ALT too like if I want a javelin cavalry unit to charge something instead of throwing their things?
Why are the H not as good at stopping cav as hoplites? Their defense stats, mass, moral are the same, they do have spears as well.

Also about the lethality rating...they have almost twice the weapon lethality than the PM. How does that go into the equation?

Thanks for your answers so far, but I am still a bit confused :)

[Fluvius Camillus]

How can you tell the H to use a specific weapon? Does it work with ALT too like if I want a javelin cavalry unit to charge something instead of throwing their things?
Why are the H not as good at stopping cav as hoplites? Their defense stats, mass, moral are the same, they do have spears as well.

Also about the lethality rating...they have almost twice the weapon lethality than the PM. How does that go into the equation?

Thanks for your answers so far, but I am still a bit confused :)

I think so, it was either ordering them to attack a second time or alt-attacking. They will use their spears again for a short period of time.

If you let a unit stand on the spot and order nothing while a cavalry group charges them, their status will say ready.

With the Hypaspistai they will be ready with their shield line closed and a sword in the hand.

The Hoplitai will stand ready with their shield line closed and a SPEAR in the hand.

IIRC this made a big difference in stopping a charge.

@Lazy O

I wouldn't say they are useless, they are just not as cost effective as Pantodapoi phalanx, (Thracian) peltasts and thureophorio.thorakitai.

If your empire stretches far and wide your royal army can usually be outfitted with elite heavy infantry and cavalry. You wouldn't bother with cost effective medium infantry for a prolonged campaign.

~Fluvius

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I actually matched the two up and the PM's destroyed the Hypaspistai. Not truly sure why but it happened with me playing as both.

[Lazy O]

Wel the main reason i like EB so much is the fact of realistic levy medium armies, that are just..better :P