Did Zeus never teach Athena to have some tolerance with Muslims?

[Cute Wolf]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AF2HM20101116

well well, I can imagine how annoying muslim immigrants are... but pelting them with eggs like peltasts are not cool, especially when they celebrate the Eid-ul-Adha and supposed to give free beef and goat steaks to their neighbours...

because you hellenes are bad with them, so no free goat steaks for you this year...

------------------------------------

Ok, ok, real commentary about this event:
- this night, the news (at TV) here announce this event, and they shown how the angry Greek mob throwing eggs, stones, and almost everything nasty violently to a small (!) muslim group gathered to do a religious ceremony in the central square (which was public ground), and the video shown there is not even pomp and ceremonies, just some goats are shown (for the sacrifice).
- as most of you allready knew, I was rather at odds with the muslims, but seeing them abused this heavy and even the police force (who are supposedly neutral at least) joins the fray into beating some children and even babies hit by baton... (!) ok people, this is too much...

just want to know, how "deep" european hatred with muslims allready grow, and why this event happened...

[gaelic cowboy]

I don't understand are you saying you don't understand why a Greek might not like muslim immigrants being in Greece, I imagine muslims have never being welcome in Greece ever since the time of the Turks and up to and including today.

[HoreTore]

Kristallnacht.

[Cute Wolf]

I don't understand are you saying you don't understand why a Greek might not like muslim immigrants being in Greece, I imagine muslims have never being welcome in Greece ever since the time of the Turks and up to and including today.

yeah, but what bothers me is they start to do "overkill" with their "protests"

pelting rotten eggs and stones, hitting and kicking at MEN should be acceptable enough in severe cases, but hitting women, batoning children, and kick some babies in their mother's hands is just... too much...

[HoreTore]

pelting rotten eggs and stones, hitting and kicking at MEN should be acceptable enough in severe cases

.......

[Cute Wolf]

.......

I just meant if the protesters are real MEN, they should avoid doing violences on helpless WOMEN and CHILDREN.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Maybe the Mohameddans will become the scapegoats for the woes of Greece? The scenes there were pretty shocking, most of them weren't even Turks so it's not like you could explain it with the old nationalist rivalry.


.......

Well you didn't mind when it happened to the police...

[InsaneApache]

They'd better watch out if they start bearing gifts.

[gaelic cowboy]

yeah, but what bothers me is they start to do "overkill" with their "protests"

pelting rotten eggs and stones, hitting and kicking at MEN should be acceptable enough in severe cases, but hitting women, batoning children, and kick some babies in their mother's hands is just... too much...

You do realise these were far right loons right there gonna hate everyone, casual racism of Muslims is increasing Europewide but remember it is not happening in a vacuum.

[HoreTore]

Well you didn't mind when it happened to the police...

Oh come on you know that wasn't serious.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yeah the overdone pc-ness with multiculturalism has shot itself in the foot, the ordinary people don't buy it anymore. Unfortunately that may mean they swing to the other extreme and become openly hostile to Muslims. Islamophobia (horrid word, but I shall use it for conveience) is now seen as much more acceptable. This is especially worrying in a country as unstable as Greece...


Oh come on you know that wasn't serious.

Would't be a stretch to think you were, I know you wouldn't condone causing serious harm to a person, but when it comes to trashing property even some Uni professors openly came out and supported it.

[HoreTore]

Would't be a stretch to think you were, I know you wouldn't condone causing serious harm to a person, but when it comes to trashing property even some Uni professors openly came out and supported it.

Thrashing property is something I whole-heartedly support, of course!



Also, in a thread like this it should be noted that the ones responsible for the current economic trouble in Greexe is every single Greek person. They cannot claim that some outside force screwed them over, they did this to themselves. It wasn't just some banks, it wasn't just the rich, it wasn't the immigrants, it wasn't the politicians, it wasn't the workers. It was every single one. It was the doctor who didn't care to pay tax, it was his customers who didn't want to pay VAT.

Of course, that doesn't stop nationalist mobs from blaming everyone else in their hate-campaigns.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Thrashing property is something I whole-heartedly support, of course!

Especially when it's Conservative Party property, I'll bet! Trust a Viking!

[HoreTore]

Especially when it's Conservative Party property, I'll bet! Trust a Viking!

I'd lie if I said that didn't tickle me a little extra..... Hey, at least I'm honest!

And besides, being Viking, I of course approve of all pillaging of the British Isles.....

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hmm, our dialogue is dragging things OT...


Kristallnacht.

In what way is this the same? Or were you just making a Godwin for the lulz (I do that as well sometimes)?

[HoreTore]

In what way is this the same? Or were you just making a Godwin for the lulz (I do that as well sometimes)?

A large-scale episode of violence and harassment directed at a minority which has been subjected to a long hate and fear-campaign.

Also, it was the first thought that poped into my head after i read the article.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yeah but the major difference is the Nazi's used their own forces, unlike the current Greek government. A bit o' hyperbole there methinks...

[Hax]

I just meant if the protesters are real MEN, they should avoid doing violences on helpless WOMEN and CHILDREN.

Violence is against the law. Against men, women and children. Having a penis and more testosterone doesn't exempt you from being hit by people. I won't even try to understand how you condone violence and perhaps even promote violence (in severe cases, whatever the hell that means).

Where I live, I am happy that the nation-wide consensus is not (yet) "Oh, you can hit (Muslim) men and throw eggs at them." It's repulsive, abhorrent and you should be ashamed, as far as I reckon, for even proposing such a thing. It's disgusting.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Violence is against the law. Against men, women and children. Having a penis and more testosterone doesn't exempt you from being hit by people. I won't even try to understand how you condone violence and perhaps even promote violence (in severe cases, whatever the hell that means).

Probably it is because we can't all live in comfortable western liberal democracies and hold idealistic principles about the equality of men and women while completely ignoring reality.

Outside of our little world, violence between men is commonplace, but when women and children start getting beat up it means things are generally getting serious. It must take some amount of hatred to overcome the natural tendency not to harm women and children.

[HoreTore]

Probably it is because we can't all live in comfortable western liberal democracies and hold idealistic principles about the equality of men and women while completely ignoring reality.

Outside of our little world, violence between men is commonplace, but when women and children start getting beat up it means things are generally getting serious. It must take some amount of hatred to overcome the natural tendency not to harm women and children.

So......

Ghandi was from western Europe? :inquisitive:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yeah Ghandi was very cosmpolitan he was well educated before he decided to walk about in a piece of cloth for whatever reason.

[Cute Wolf]

Violence is against the law. Against men, women and children. Having a penis and more testosterone doesn't exempt you from being hit by people. I won't even try to understand how you condone violence and perhaps even promote violence (in severe cases, whatever the hell that means).

Where I live, I am happy that the nation-wide consensus is not (yet) "Oh, you can hit (Muslim) men and throw eggs at them." It's repulsive, abhorrent and you should be ashamed, as far as I reckon, for even proposing such a thing. It's disgusting.


Outside of our little world, violence between men is commonplace, but when women and children start getting beat up it means things are generally getting serious. It must take some amount of hatred to overcome the natural tendency not to harm women and children.

well, I just want to point out that those protesters are attacking helpless women and children, group who had little to no chance of retaliation... so they have done more horrible things than attacking men who clearly shown to hit back their attackers (but still overwhelmed by numbers though).

Not meant I advising violence against men, but in every society and culture, women and children are generally should be more protected, don't they?

[HoreTore]

women are generally should be more protected, don't they?

Bah.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Bah.

You don't want it to be true so it can't be true?

[HoreTore]

You don't want it to be true so it can't be true?

No I'm saying it's not my view on things.

[Rhyfelwyr]

But how can you deny it?

[Strike For The South]

Outside of our little world, violence between men is commonplace, but when women and children start getting beat up it means things are generally getting serious. It must take some amount of hatred to overcome the natural tendency not to harm women and children.

The natural tendency to not harm women and children?

lol. Women and children are most commonly those getting the tom kicked out of them, because men who use violence are generaly cowards. People who start/go looking for fights are generaly cowards. These Greeks are cowards

See the trend?

[Megas Methuselah]

Maaaaaan, it's been much too long since I egged and stoned something.

[Fragony]

White trash meh. No fan of Islam but this is idiotic

[HoreTore]

The natural tendency to not harm women and children?

lol. Women and children are most commonly those getting the tom kicked out of them, because men who use violence are generaly cowards. People who start/go looking for fights are generaly cowards. These Greeks are cowards

See the trend?

/thread


But how can you deny it?

I don't even care what other peoples stance is on this. If you feel that way, kudos to you, but I don't.

[Shaka_Khan]

Christians made Zeusism and Athenaism disappear before the Muslims could.

[Andres]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AF2HM20101116




Dozens of far-right activists and local residents threw eggs and taunted hundreds of Muslim immigrants as they gathered to pray in a central square for Eid al-Adha surrounded by a protective cordon of riot police.

A few local far-right nutjobs is not = "The Greeks".

That's like insinuating that all Flemings are nationalists and seperatists because some 50 flag waving idiots threw rotten eggs at some Walloon provocateur or like insinuating the Walloons want civil war because some drunk Walloon low life beat up a Flemish politician.

Meh. Sensationalism.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The natural tendency to not harm women and children?

lol. Women and children are most commonly those getting the tom kicked out of them, because men who use violence are generaly cowards. People who start/go looking for fights are generaly cowards. These Greeks are cowards

See the trend?

This isn't chauvinism, I remember a feminist teacher went crazy when one guy suggested mean should be able to hit women in retaliation if they are equal.

Also, men that use violence are not cowards, that is pc bs since for some reason nowadays we call everyone cowards when we don't like them/disapprove of what they do. Taliban? Cowards. Guy tops himself? Coward. Guy goes looking for a fight where he could get hurt? Coward... yeah, whatever.

[al Roumi]

Also, men that use violence are not cowards

No, he de big Boss an no-one gonna risk gettin dere skull broke. /Orc

Wife beating is cowardly.

If violence per se is not cowardly, it is pretty prehistoric and should be obsolete in a civilised society. If it's seen as nesseccary, then things have clearly degenerated too far.

I am rather concerened about how this episode will go down overseas. It will easily be inflated into some sort of further evidence that Europe and Christians hate Muslims.

[Fragony]

A few local far-right nutjobs is not = "The Greeks".

That's like insinuating that all Flemings are nationalists and seperatists because some 50 flag waving idiots threw rotten eggs at some Walloon provocateur or like insinuating the Walloons want civil war because some drunk Walloon low life beat up a Flemish politician.

Meh. Sensationalism.

Oh common they live in Greece that makes them Greeks. Everybody understands that it weren't all the Greeks doing this there is no need to be so specific.

[HoreTore]

This isn't chauvinism, I remember a feminist teacher went crazy when one guy suggested mean should be able to hit women in retaliation if they are equal.

....And in your opinion, feminists are always right....?

[Fragony]

I am rather concerened about how this episode will go down overseas. It will easily be inflated into some sort of further evidence that Europe and Christians hate Muslims.

Ditto, idiots. Lunatics handing lunatics a stick. These people who got attacked aren't a problem.

[Hax]

Ditto, idiots. Lunatics handing lunatics a stick. These people who got attacked aren't a problem.

Exactly, I can add very little to this.

[Rhyfelwyr]

....And in your opinion, feminists are always right....?

Nope, just sheltering myself from the inevitable leftist moral outrage.


No, he de big Boss an no-one gonna risk gettin dere skull broke. /Orc

Wife beating is cowardly.

Cos that's really what I'm saying yeah if you hit someone you're a hard man wth...

I agree wife beating is cowardly (they only do it behind closed doors, plus they wouldn't take on someone their own size), didn't say it wasn't, I was just asking why people think any sort of violence is cowardly, strangely the sort of people that say that sort of thing tend to be liberal types that would probably conscietiously object if they got called up. Doing the noble thing I don't think thouhg, covering their own arse more like.

[rory_20_uk]

I have had female friends who think that men should never hit women - even if they hit men first. Equality = men are punch-bags... Feminists often appear to want to keep all the historic "ladies first" / "women and children first" aspects and in the next breath be equal in everything else that they've not got an advantage in.

I'm sorry, but regardless of who hits me I am allowed to defend myself and yes in some cases that would include violence to almost any sub-group of individuals. I'm not going to look to beat up women, nor look to pick on persons in wheel chairs, but if there were two attacking me with knives I'd undertake measures to protect my own well-being before hangups about their gender. If that ends with bruises or broken bones so be it - as long as it doesn't end up with my liver skewered.

Violence is prehistoric. And civilisation is a thin veneer (a few thousand years tops) over a hell of a lot longer where the world is simply two camps - your friends / tribe and targets / resources to be killed and/or taken. Anyone who has played a contact sport knows the adrenaline high prior to the match starting and the way one can jog off with narry a twinge yet wake up the next morning with agony from aches and hitherto-unseen bruises. We're built to fight. Sure, we can think a bit more these days, but when the stress hormones kick in, we brain redistributes blood to the more "ancient" areas of the brain where introspection = death.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

Nope, just sheltering myself from the inevitable leftist moral outrage.



Cos that's really what I'm saying yeah if you hit someone you're a hard man wth...

I agree wife beating is cowardly (they only do it behind closed doors, plus they wouldn't take on someone their own size), didn't say it wasn't, I was just asking why people think any sort of violence is cowardly, strangely the sort of people that say that sort of thing tend to be liberal types that would probably conscietiously object if they got called up. Doing the noble thing I don't think thouhg, covering their own arse more like.

Violence isn't cowardly you can get hurt, abuse is cowardly, they can't/won't hurt you back . Got little problems with ending a dispute violently mamma didn't raise me all that well, but it's not my first choice, but if you are really asking for it be my vict- guest

[al Roumi]

...I was just asking why people think any sort of violence is cowardly, strangely the sort of people that say that sort of thing tend to be liberal types that would probably conscietiously object if they got called up. Doing the noble thing I don't think thouhg, covering their own arse more like.

Do you conscientiously object to conscientious objectors? probably not your style, given the above.

I completely agree that we have bred/evolved in a way that suits us to violence but if civilisation means anything, it is that we try to supersede the more survivalist tendencies. I'd agree that civilisation itself rests, in no small part, on violence -but it is the creation of that non-violent space at its core, which defines civilisation for me.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sad events.


Greece sees a lot of (illegal) immigration. Much of it passing through to go to Europe. Erm...to go further into Europe I mean. Little is done for these people. They are neither properly kept out by Greece (which the EU has now taken upon itself to an extent), nor properly taken care of. Whatever one may think of an illegal immigrant, he is a human being and this is Europe.

The result is that many Greek cities have squatter camps of (illegal) foreigners. (Not unlike the forests near Calais...) They hang out a bit, some have local jobs during the day. But most just sit there. They've ran out of money, they can't afford to travel further to Germany or Britain, they can't afford their return home.

The local Greeks get restless. The little square where their children played five years ago is now unsafe, unruly. Groups of Afghan men get picked up every night, by a van driven by two Albanian or Bulgarian mobsters, off to do something unclear. There is mutual aggression between the locals and the foreign squatters.

It is a nasty situation. Then occasionally hell breaks lose....

[Furunculus]

Greece sees a lot of (illegal) immigration. Much of it passing through to go to Europe. Erm...to go further into Europe I mean. Little is done for these people. They are neither properly kept out by Greece (which the EU has now taken upon itself to an extent).

The local Greeks get restless. The little square where their children played five years ago is now unsafe, unruly. Groups of Afghan men get picked up every night, by a van driven by two Albanian or Bulgarian mobsters, off to do something unclear. There is mutual aggression between the locals and the foreign squatters.

makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!:balloon2:

[al Roumi]

makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!:balloon2:

Not sure that's really the point... The UK's non-membership of Schengen is why there are seperate camps near Calais. If the UK were part of the Schengen agreement, it would just mean there would be fewer people camped out near Calais. All you really have to feel smug about is the channel :grin:

[gaelic cowboy]

makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!:balloon2:

Neither did we.

[Furunculus]

Not sure that's really the point... The UK's non-membership of Schengen is why there are seperate camps near Calais. If the UK were part of the Schengen agreement, it would just mean there would be fewer people camped out near Calais. All you really have to feel smug about is the channel :grin:

but that is exactly the point.

while they are camped outside calais they are not in dear old blighty!

the border-hoppers are prevented from hopping the border, the channel on makes the legal enforcement more effective.


Neither did we.

that was mainly because ireland didn't want to threaten the open-borders business with the UK was it not?

[al Roumi]

but that is exactly the point.

while they are camped outside calais they are not in dear old blighty!

the border-hoppers are prevented from hopping the border, the channel on makes the legal enforcement more effective.

...but is France, or would the UK be, more awash with immigrants? Especially if the UK got more involved in EU external border policy and support, which it would have to have done.

[Furunculus]

...but is France, or would the UK be, more awash with immigrants? Especially if the UK got more involved in EU external border policy and support, which it would have to have done.

pardon?

[gaelic cowboy]

that was mainly because ireland didn't want to threaten the open-borders business with the UK was it not?

Correct the common travel across the border between the North and the Republic is far more economically important than any EU travel arrangement.

I laugh anyway at the people who hold up Shengen as some great moral force, when it came to it actually allowing people to work in EU only Britain, Ireland and Sweden allowed the Poles and other Baltic peoples in straight away.

[Furunculus]

Correct the common travel across the border between the North and the Republic is far more economically important than any EU travel arrangement.

I laugh anyway at the people who hold up Shengen as some great moral force, when it came to it actually allowing people to work in EU only Britain, Ireland and Sweden allowed the Poles and other Baltic peoples in straight away.

and we were right to do so.

[gaelic cowboy]

and we were right to do so.

My brother married a Polish lady so he got a good deal at least :beam:

[rory_20_uk]

...but is France, or would the UK be, more awash with immigrants? Especially if the UK got more involved in EU external border policy and support, which it would have to have done.

Are you seriously saying that IF the UK had joined somehow they'd be able to police the Greek / Italian / Maltese borders so well that the problem of illegal immigrants would all but disappear? That's a flattering statement to make, but sadly it's not the case.

Think of a submarine. All those separate compartments so if there's a leak somewhere, the boat stays afloat. Maybe we could employ this somehow in the EU... Some soft of borders that were internal to prevent immigrants traipsing across Europe. We could check some sort of paperwork that proved who a person was and where they were from against a sort of searchable electronic list. Those that weren't on it could be detained and removed.

Just an idea...

~:smoking:

[Furunculus]

My brother married a Polish lady so he got a good deal at least :beam:

i'm practically in the same boat five years in.

my boss has married a finnish girl
a work-mate is going out with a polish girl
another mate is also going out with a polish girl
my brother is going out with a Venezuelan yank.

it's all the rage these days.

[Husar]

The riot police should have given some food back in the form of pepper spray though.

[Tellos Athenaios]

makes schengen seem like a thoroughly stupid idea, pity we joined it............... no wait, we didn't!:balloon2:

Well, may I be allowed to channel a call for “bollox! :laugh4: etc.” here and point out:
(1) Schengen is for members of Schengen countries. I.e. those immigrants got nothing to do with that: they are a different problem. (One of housing and some sort of supervision so they don't go “missing”.)
(2) Schengen further lowers barriers among Schengen members which means the cost of doing business that involves crossing borders on a routine basis is lowered substantially. Time is money, remember?
(3) And purely subjectively it's plain awesome I can just go where-ever I want to in Schengen countries without being interrupted by some bored and short-tempered sod in a high visibility jacket. You might never leave the shores of the UK, I would not know, but I can trivially step on a train to visit Hussar or Louis should I chose to without somebody asking for my passport then handing it straight back to me without even looking at me. (Which is what it is like when you exit the ferry from Calais in Dover; the French don't even bother asking for anything.)

[Furunculus]

Well, may I be allowed to channel a call for “bollox! :laugh4: etc.” here and point out:
(1) Schengen is for members of Schengen countries. I.e. those immigrants got nothing to do with that: they are a different problem. (One of housing and some sort of supervision so they don't go “missing”.)
(2) Schengen further lowers barriers among Schengen members which means the cost of doing business that involves crossing borders on a routine basis is lowered substantially. Time is money, remember?
(3) And purely subjectively it's plain awesome I can just go where-ever I want to in Schengen countries without being interrupted by some bored and short-tempered sod in a high visibility jacket. You might never leave the shores of the UK, I would not know, but I can trivially step on a train to visit Hussar or Louis should I chose to without somebody asking for my passport then handing it straight back to me without even looking at me. (Which is what it is like when you exit the ferry from Calais in Dover; the French don't even bother asking for anything.)

i'm afraid the bollox is all yours.

schengen's primary benefit of no internal borders only 'works' if the external border functions. it doesn't.

because we do not share schengen then people inside who shouldn't be cannot jump on eurostar or a plane and end up in britain.

as to my travel, i will be spending:
1. xmas in poland
2. next week in nuremburg
3. fortnight in poland back in august
4. week in berlin a year ago
5. fortnight in poland in july 09
6. weekend in spain in march 09

shall i go back any farther? and no, none of those border crossing was a real inconvenience.

so bollox indeed.

[Tellos Athenaios]

the external border functions. it doesn't.
That, together with “we got illegal immigrants, now what?” is the real problem here. Schengen is not.


because we do not share schengen then people inside who shouldn't be cannot jump on eurostar or a plane and end up in britain.
Except that plenty often they manage it anyway.


as to my travel, i will be spending:
1. xmas in poland
2. next week in nuremburg
3. fortnight in poland back in august
4. week in berlin a year ago
5. fortnight in poland in july 09
6. weekend in spain in march 09
Exactly the point! Schengen makes it that bit easier, especially for companies because they can simply send in their employees without having to worry/wait for any of that anymore.

[Beskar]

I have had female friends who think that men should never hit women - even if they hit men first. Equality = men are punch-bags... Feminists often appear to want to keep all the historic "ladies first" / "women and children first" aspects and in the next breath be equal in everything else that they've not got an advantage in.

I remember this off-duty police officer who got beaten up by a bunch of kids (13-15 year olds, a group of them) in the middle of the street and ended up in hospital. The thing was, he wasn't allowed to fight back or he would have lost his job.

Sad times.

[Cute Wolf]

well, hitting a teenager who can hit you back is "definitely had more risk", and they are borderline of the "children" definition.

the problem is they hit 4-5 years old children, and women who don't put a fight back...

well... I was rather surprised when some comments here implies : women equality = they are equal to be hit and assumed they can fight back...

[Strike For The South]

This isn't chauvinism, I remember a feminist teacher went crazy when one guy suggested mean should be able to hit women in retaliation if they are equal.

That's because your teacher is an idoit


Also, men that use violence are not cowards, that is pc bs since for some reason nowadays we call everyone cowards when we don't like them/disapprove of what they do. Taliban? Cowards. Guy tops himself? Coward. Guy goes looking for a fight where he could get hurt? Coward... yeah, whatever.

Violence is an extreme act of cowardice in most cases, throwing things at peaceful muslims is cowardice. True violence is terrible. it is meant, in the best of scenarios to instill fear and in the worst case of scenarios kill. A whole gneration of watching violence on TV has us desensitized.

If you commit to using violence you should be prepared to die, if someone was pelting me with eggs and threatning my family. I would've gone over there kicked him in the testicles, gouged his eyes out and stomped on his trachea until I was sure he was dead.

If a muslim had done that in this scenario I wouldn't have faulted him because thats what violence is. That's what these Greeks were half ass commiting themselves to.

Be in it to win it son.

[Louis VI the Fat]

the problem is they hit 4-5 years old children, and women who don't put a fight back...Well here's an idea: don't bring your kids to public demonstrations.

There was already a lot of tension in Greece between the native population and the (illegal) immigrants. Not to mention, after having been brutalised by a Muslim colonial power for centuries, Islamic shows of force are a natural provocation in Greece. So leave the kids elsewhere when one decides to stage a massive open air Islamic religious manifestation.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Schengen, fast international bullet trains, and a single Euro are indispensible to me. The bliss of travelling from Bordeaux to Paris to Brussels to Amsterdam within a few hours in a bullet train, without border hassles, and without the need to carry three different currencies just to have a cup of coffee - it is all sheer genius.

[HoreTore]

Well here's an idea: don't bring your kids to public demonstrations.

This was a religious service, not a demonstration, Louis. Which they had to conduct outside because they haven't got any other suitable place for it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Schengen, fast international bullet trains, and a single Euro are indispensible to me. The bliss of travelling from Bordeaux to Paris to Brussels to Amsterdam within a few hours in a bullet train, without border hassles, and without the need to carry three different currencies just to have a cup of coffee - it is all sheer genius.

I love it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

well, hitting a teenager who can hit you back is "definitely had more risk", and they are borderline of the "children" definition.

the problem is they hit 4-5 years old children, and women who don't put a fight back...

well... I was rather surprised when some comments here implies : women equality = they are equal to be hit and assumed they can fight back...

None of those people should've been attacked in the first place. The whole point is: demonstration OK, violence not OK.

With the notion of women being equal to men therefore violence against women is the same as violence against men you should understand that women are given equal status to men in a somewhat idealised sense. In reality most women do not have parity with men in physical conflict, simply a matter of greater bulk alone.
But the point to convey here is not that women are de facto equals of men in physical confrontation (it all depends). The point is to convey violence towards any people who are peacefully going about their business is not OK, not even if they are extremely physically fit men in the prime of their life. Sanctity of your body. Your body is not to be abused and/or mutilated by someone else at will, no matter who you are or who the other is.

[Rhyfelwyr]

That's because your teacher is an idoit

Men are on average much stronger than women, why can't people accept this fact. If a man hits a woman the chances are he will seriously hurt her, while the reverse is not true.


Violence is an extreme act of cowardice in most cases, throwing things at peaceful muslims is cowardice.

How is it cowardice, it just seems like stupidity to me. These thugs are probably the type that do regularly engage in fights and would fight back if things escalated. Thugs, but not necessarily cowards.

I'm not defending these people I'm just objecting to the strange use of the word "coward".

[Beskar]

Men are on average much stronger than women, why can't people accept this fact. If a man hits a woman the chances are he will seriously hurt her, while the reverse is not true.

You haven't be hit by a female then, obviously.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Men are on average much stronger than women, why can't people accept this fact. If a man hits a woman the chances are he will seriously hurt her, while the reverse is not true.

You haven't be hit by a female then, obviously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1YfxBn5oU4

The word "hit" is too vague to bother talking about though.


How is it cowardice, it just seems like stupidity to me. These thugs are probably the type that do regularly engage in fights and would fight back if things escalated. Thugs, but not necessarily cowards.

I'm not defending these people I'm just objecting to the strange use of the word "coward".

Yes. Cowardice is when you avoid something do to fear, not when you attack someone in anger. If someone attacks a child instead of a man, the avoiding of the man was cowardly and the attack on the child was vicious.

[Beskar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1YfxBn5oU4

The word "hit" is too vague to bother talking about though.

I think that video supports my point though.

[Vladimir]

I think that video supports my point though.

Wow. Twenty-five.

At least midwest girls still know how to fight.

[HoreTore]

Men are on average much stronger than women, why can't people accept this fact. If a man hits a woman the chances are he will seriously hurt her, while the reverse is not true.

I work out with Vibeke Skofterud (http://www.vibekeskofterud.no/) a couple of times a week.

I'm not the only male in that gym she'd have no problem beating up... Nor is she the only fit female there.

[Fragony]

Schengen, fast international bullet trains, and a single Euro are indispensible to me. The bliss of travelling from Bordeaux to Paris to Brussels to Amsterdam within a few hours in a bullet train, without border hassles, and without the need to carry three different currencies just to have a cup of coffee - it is all sheer genius.

Why on earth would you want to visit Amsterdam?? The barren womb of Europe nowadays, all the neon-light in the world can't hide that it has become incredibly&painfully boring, labour's fetish for controling each and every aspect of your life and their neverending need of coin has turned this once lovely playful lady into a tired bloated whore.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I work out with Vibeke Skofterud (http://www.vibekeskofterud.no/) a couple of times a week.

I'm not the only male in that gym she'd have no problem beating up... Nor is she the only fit female there.

How do exceptions disporove general trends?

[Fragony]

How do exceptions disporove general trends?

Ya, almost all men can easily beat up any woman. Saying otherwise is confusing how you would like it and how things are. Lemur's wife will most likely completely destroy me (and Lemur) but I'm no karate expert, if I was things would be different simply because I'm naturally stronger.

[al Roumi]

Are you seriously saying that IF the UK had joined somehow they'd be able to police the Greek / Italian / Maltese borders so well that the problem of illegal immigrants would all but disappear? That's a flattering statement to make, but sadly it's not the case.

That is what I was questioning, just how much of a disaster zone the UK would actually be if it had signed up to Schengen. Lets try to have some rational predictions, not "ZOMG ITS FALLOUT BOURTON-ON-THE-WATER!11!!!!"

I'm not saying that, with the UK's shining light of exacting border controls, the EU's border problems would be gone, but the issue might be better addressed if the UK were not content to simply entrench itself behind the channel.

[Louis VI the Fat]

External borders (between two displined countries of roughly comparable standards) are a major waste of time for people going about legal business, but scarcely an inconvenience for those with more malign intentions.

There are smarter instruments of catching criminals and preventing illegal immigration.

You can check the passports of everybody on the boat / car / train / plane, but at some point you need to realise that unless you transform your borders to an impregnable fortress like the Berlin Wall, you are really mostly just inconveniencing normal citizens with intrusive questions, cavity searches and hours of delay, while those with malign intentions simply cross the border at night in an unpatrolled forest / beach / country road.

[Fragony]

That is what I was questioning, just how much of a disaster zone the UK would actually be if it had signed up to Schengen. Lets try to have some rational predictions, not "ZOMG ITS FALLOUT BOURTON-ON-THE-WATER!11!!!!"

I'm not saying that, with the UK's shining light of exacting border controls, the EU's border problems would be gone, but the issue might be better addressed if the UK were not content to simply entrench itself behind the channel.

Projecting hysteria on percieved hysteria doesn't help, why are you lefties always using caps? We don't, so what's the point?

[al Roumi]

Projecting hysteria on percieved hysteria doesn't help, why are you lefties always using caps? We don't, so what's the point?

It helps communicate the fury better. Are you just wingeing because I copied a leaf from your book with hyperbolic and sensationalist satire?

[HoreTore]

How do exceptions disporove general trends?

Why is there any difference between a strong male hitting a weaker male, and a strong male hitting a weaker female?

[Cute Wolf]

Why is there any difference between a strong male hitting a weaker male, and a strong male hitting a weaker female?

in some "paternalistic" cultures, including mine, males are expected to at least have some gut to fight, fight back, and knows how to fight. And even in non-paternalistic cultures, most "soldiers" are male don't they? our long tradition in earth mostly said that fighting is male duty...

of course, if you are disabled male or small childrens, that was a certain exceptions

[rory_20_uk]

So there's no reason beyond tradition and culture.

~:smoking:

[Cute Wolf]

So there's no reason beyond tradition and culture.

~:smoking:

yeah, and that implies hitting women and children are far bigger crime and violence

EDIT:
and at some points of their lives, I bet every males will or have fight against each others, now, who here are male, but never ever doing brawls in highschool / univ?

[HoreTore]

in some "paternalistic" cultures, including mine, males are expected to at least have some gut to fight, fight back, and knows how to fight. And even in non-paternalistic cultures, most "soldiers" are male don't they? our long tradition in earth mostly said that fighting is male duty...

of course, if you are disabled male or small childrens, that was a certain exceptions

So what you're saying is that it's got nothing at all to do with nature at all, it's just about how society wants things to be...? Interesting.

EDIT: rory beat me to it.

[rory_20_uk]

Which would in itself be illegal in the UK as it displays both gender and age bias.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

It helps communicate the fury better. Are you just wingeing because I copied a leaf from your book with hyperbolic and sensationalist satire?

No it's the fury that keeps amazing me, take a look in the mirror and wonder where you really stand

[HoreTore]

yeah, and that implies hitting women and children are far bigger crime and violence

EDIT:
and at some points of their lives, I bet every males will or have fight against each others, now, who here are male, but never ever doing brawls in highschool / univ?

So, you can basically swap "man" and "female" with any other random word and the point will be the same? Like "shop clerks" should always protect "library assistants", and thus violence against "library assistants" is a bigger crime. Right?

Oh, and I'm 24, male, and I've never, ever been in a fight. Nor do I believe I will ever be in one. And I'm working class. I solve my disagreements by using my words, not by acting like a barbaric idiot.

[al Roumi]

No it's the fury that keeps amazing me, take a look in the mirror and wonder where you really stand

http://www.modernmom.com/media/articles/158892.size800x600.jpg

Excuse the vest, it's pure irony (givent he post) that some would have it be known as a "wife beater".

[Cute Wolf]

Oh, and I'm 24, male, and I've never, ever been in a fight. Nor do I believe I will ever be in one. And I'm working class. I solve my disagreements by using my words, not by acting like a barbaric idiot.

hmm.....I envy you, clearly become wise as early as an well aged men when you are still in highschool are something to be very proud of... I salute you for that. Every men I know in highschool, including myself, are "barbaric idiot"according to your words, and even everyone at the compulsory conscript training camp was "barbaric idiots"...

hmm... Norway didn't have nation wide reserve conscription system... so that was still a very respectable archievements, but... quite understandable...

[HoreTore]

hmm.....I envy you, clearly become wise as early as an well aged men when you are still in highschool are something to be very proud of... I salute you for that. Every men I know in highschool, including myself, are "barbaric idiot"according to your words, and even everyone at the compulsory conscript training camp was "barbaric idiots"...

Only a few of my friends have been in fights, and none of them have anybody to blame but themselves for it, as they were acting like aggressive dorks.


hmm... Norway didn't have nation wide reserve conscription system... so that was still a very respectable archievements, but... quite understandable...

We sure do, and I've been through one 11 months and one week of military service.

No fighting there either.

[Cute Wolf]

We sure do, and I've been through one 11 months and one week of military service.

No fighting there either.

Impressive feats :bow: very impressive....

[HoreTore]

Impressive feats :bow: very impressive....

Uhm, why? Fighting in the military is a sure way to get your behind thrown in jail, and that's not a place I'd like to be.

During my year up there I only heard of one fight, involving some drunken royal marines who were visiting for the NATO-excercise(will Philipvs rant on me for "hating on the brits" now?). Only a complete idiot would ever fight in the army.

[Cute Wolf]

Uhm, why? Fighting in the military is a sure way to get your behind thrown in jail, and that's not a place I'd like to be.

did they didn't teach you some close combat fighting? only firing rifles?

[HoreTore]

did they didn't teach you some close combat fighting? only firing rifles?

How is training and learning how to fight even remotely connected to an actual fight...? That's like saying I have experience as a football coach because I play football manager.

[Cute Wolf]

How is training and learning how to fight even remotely connected to an actual fight...? That's like saying I have experience as a football coach because I play football manager.

after training, eating in the mess, two men left, but there was only one fried chicken:

A : hey! that's my chicken!
B :NO! that's mine!
A : hope you still remember today's training well...
B : what?
A : (punch at the stomach of B) never put your guard down!
B : (sweep kick at A)
...
... (several exchange of hits)
...
Instructor: Ok, ok, both of you! do 1000 push ups each!

well, only push ups are administered as punishments for fighting here, dunno the Norway laws are so harsh

[Hax]

Remember kids, violence is awesome.

[HoreTore]

dunno the Norway laws are so harsh

The non-sanctioned use of violence is illegal in all civilized countries.

[Cute Wolf]

The non-sanctioned use of violence is illegal in all civilized countries.

yeah... funny things happened...


Remember kids, violence is awesome.

in some ways...
like tom and jerry... love em when jerry sliced tom in two

[Fragony]

http://www.modernmom.com/media/articles/158892.size800x600.jpg

Excuse the vest, it's pure irony (givent he post) that some would have it be known as a "wife beater".

The joke's on you, you just don't realise it

[Rhyfelwyr]

Why is there any difference between a strong male hitting a weaker male, and a strong male hitting a weaker female?

I do generally agree people should only pick on people their own size. But even weak males and females are different scenarios, its not all physical, males are more mentally predisposed to fighting/defending themselves.

The biological and social aspects probably complement each other, rather than only one being relevant, IMO.

[Furunculus]

I do generally agree people should only pick on people their own size. But even weak males and females are different scenarios, its not all physical, males are more mentally predisposed to fighting/defending themselves.

The biological and social aspects probably complement each other, rather than only one being relevant, IMO.

by iron principle i only start fights with people i know i can wreck, and by extension avoid being wrecked.

but then, i haven't had a fight in a fvery long time...........

if a fight needs to be fought, then it needs to be won, otherwise why are you doing it?

[Beskar]

and at some points of their lives, I bet every males will or have fight against each others, now, who here are male, but never ever doing brawls in highschool / univ?

Me?

[Beskar]

I do generally agree people should only pick on people their own size. But even weak males and females are different scenarios, its not all physical, males are more mentally predisposed to fighting/defending themselves.

The biological and social aspects probably complement each other, rather than only one being relevant, IMO.

Not really, a mother defending the nest is a bigger threat than a typical male.

[HoreTore]

I do generally agree people should only pick on people their own size. But even weak males and females are different scenarios, its not all physical, males are more mentally predisposed to fighting/defending themselves.

The biological and social aspects probably complement each other, rather than only one being relevant, IMO.

*sigh*

Allright, let's say you have a male and female that are exactly the same when it comes to both strength AND mental status.

Is there NOW any difference between them?

[Rhyfelwyr]

*sigh*

Allright, let's say you have a male and female that are exactly the same when it comes to both strength AND mental status.

Is there NOW any difference between them?

No.

[HoreTore]

No.

So then you agree with me: it's not bad to hit women, it's bad to hit those less capable of fighting than you are yourself.

[Kagemusha]

Im with Strike and Rory on this one. There is nothing glorious about violence.

[Fragony]

So then you agree with me: it's not bad to hit women, it's bad to hit those less capable of fighting than you are yourself.

And the avarage male just happens to be stronger. Repulsion against hitting women is repulsion against treating them like something you are allowed to abuse instead of treating them like an equal. I'd say women are superior really, fine with being their slave really they are much smarter, frees the mind for more important things such as bashing skulls.

@K, what's wrong with, it's much more weak to avoid it's simplicity. When you comfort a friend he knows enough when you squeeze his shoulder, you understand, that's enough. Same with busting his nose when he pisses you of. Advanced communication made simple, or should we go in therapy instead

[Rhyfelwyr]

So then you agree with me: it's not bad to hit women, it's bad to hit those less capable of fighting than you are yourself.

Yes I do. Being a woman and being physically weaker tend to be pretty much synonymous. So you should never find yourself in a situation where you have to hit a woman.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I don't understand why physical violence is seen as so bad anyway.

If you think about it, if we see violence or harm against a person as being either physical or mental, then surely mental harm is more direct. Physical pain is only bad because it translated into mental anguish.

For example, my Gran, being a bit old fashioned, used to hit me with a strap or a spoon at times, but I always found that less bad than having a telling off that lasts half and hour, or having a football or whatever taken off me. :shrug:

[HoreTore]

Yes I do. Being a woman and being physically weaker tend to be pretty much synonymous. So you should never find yourself in a situation where you have to hit a woman.

In short; everyone now agrees with HoreTore's opening statement. ~;)


I don't understand why physical violence is seen as so bad anyway.

If you think about it, if we see violence or harm against a person as being either physical or mental, then surely mental harm is more direct. Physical pain is only bad because it translated into mental anguish.

For example, my Gran, being a bit old fashioned, used to hit me with a strap or a spoon at times, but I always found that less bad than having a telling off that lasts half and hour, or having a football or whatever taken off me. :shrug:

Because any abusive behaviour is seen as negative. Yelling or whatever is just as unnecessary. Want to end negative behaviour? Simply reward positive behaviour.

[Kagemusha]

I don't understand why physical violence is seen as so bad anyway.

If you think about it, if we see violence or harm against a person as being either physical or mental, then surely mental harm is more direct. Physical pain is only bad because it translated into mental anguish.

For example, my Gran, being a bit old fashioned, used to hit me with a strap or a spoon at times, but I always found that less bad than having a telling off that lasts half and hour, or having a football or whatever taken off me. :shrug:

Some may think that as violence.Had your granny broken your nose, finger or a limb because of your behaviour, you might think otherwise.

[Rhyfelwyr]

In short; everyone now agrees with HoreTore's opening statement. ~;)

Never set out to disagree, we were saying the same thing in different words, that was my point.


Some may think that as violence.Had your granny broken your nose, finger or a limb because of your behaviour, you might think otherwise.

Eh because that would be child abuse. Why pick an extreme example? I could do the same for mental abuse.

My point is why is physically harming someone seen as worse than inflicting suffering/punishment in non-phsyical ways?

[Slyspy]

In short; everyone now agrees with HoreTore's opening statement. ~;)



Because any abusive behaviour is seen as negative. Yelling or whatever is just as unnecessary. Want to end negative behaviour? Simply reward positive behaviour.

Can I have my reward for not murdering anyone?

[Vladimir]

Im with Strike and Rory on this one. There is nothing glorious about violence.

Well that's just wrong. Violence IS glory. Ever hear any tales of glorious manners and etiquette? We may be dealing with a translation issue here but words like glory, valor, and honor incorporate violence into their code. The difference is in how it's used.

Relating back to Islam: Violence is, inherent in the system; however, the system matters less than the people in it as proven in this incident.

[Kagemusha]

Well that's just wrong. Violence IS glory. Ever hear any tales of glorious manners and etiquette? We may be dealing with a translation issue here but words like glory, valor, and honor incorporate violence into their code. The difference is in how it's used.

Relating back to Islam: Violence is, inherent in the system; however, the system matters less than the people in it as proven in this incident.

Im talking about the real thing not about any stories. But it could be that in my language the word has different meaning then in yours.

Be it may that people love to hear stories about how a gentleman defended vigorously a helpless maiden in stress, from bunch of thugs. Or a soldier made a glorious final stand sacrificing himself and saving his whole platoon in the process. For some reason you hardly hear tales about when the gentleman got himself killed in a similar situation or soldier calling for her mother before drowning on his own blood filling his lungs. while dragging his legless torso in panic, just to get away from a battle.

[Vladimir]

Im talking about the real thing not about any stories. But it could be that in my language the word has different meaning then in yours.

Be it may that people love to hear stories about how a gentleman defended vigorously a helpless maiden in stress, from bunch of thugs. Or a soldier made a glorious final stand sacrificing himself and saving his whole platoon in the process. For some reason you hardly hear tales about when the gentleman got himself killed in a similar situation on soldier calling for her mother before drowning on his own blood filling his lungs. while dragging his legless torso in panic, just to get away from a battle.

Your post reminded me of a Top Gear episode where they explained sisu. :grin: I suppose that is a non-violent glory in that no one is seriously hurt but the cars sure took a beating.

[rory_20_uk]

Im talking about the real thing not about any stories. But it could be that in my language the word has different meaning then in yours.

Be it may that people love to hear stories about how a gentleman defended vigorously a helpless maiden in stress, from bunch of thugs. Or a soldier made a glorious final stand sacrificing himself and saving his whole platoon in the process. For some reason you hardly hear tales about when the gentleman got himself killed in a similar situation on soldier calling for her mother before drowning on his own blood filling his lungs. while dragging his legless torso in panic, just to get away from a battle.

I've met the "hero" who tried to stand up to a mugger and got stabbed as I assisted in repairing his intestines.
I treated the "hero" who tried to placate two having an argument and required stitches when a mate of theirs smacked him round the head with a piece of wood.

Those glorifying heroic events were often never anywhere near them. It's often been said that the victors never have glorious victories as they are the ones who have had a good look at the battlefield afterwards.

Similarly Loyalty was a tremedous premium in Medieval Japan as almost no one was.

~:smoking:

[Kagemusha]

Your post reminded me of a Top Gear episode where they explained sisu. :grin: I suppose that is a non-violent glory in that no one is seriously hurt but the cars sure took a beating.

Yes.Sisu is bit hard concept to translate. I guess it is some odd mixture of being stubborn against odds and not minding any kind of set backs, still retaining your integrity, while the result could still be a failure. Hard thing to translate.:painting:


I've met the "hero" who tried to stand up to a mugger and got stabbed as I assisted in repairing his intestines.
I treated the "hero" who tried to placate two having an argument and required stitches when a mate of theirs smacked him round the head with a piece of wood.

Those glorifying heroic events were often never anywhere near them. It's often been said that the victors never have glorious victories as they are the ones who have had a good look at the battlefield afterwards.

Similarly Loyalty was a tremedous premium in Medieval Japan as almost no one was.

~:smoking:

I agree completely.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yes.Sisu is bit hard concept to translate. I guess it is some odd mixture of being stubborn against odds and not minding any kind of set backs, still retaining your integrity, while the result could still be a failure. Hard thing to translate.:painting:

Perseverance?

[Vladimir]

Perseverance?

I was thinking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

[Kagemusha]

Perseverance?

Here is the wiki entry. Its quite the concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisu

[HoreTore]

Here is the wiki entry. Its quite the concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisu

It's a nice truck too.

[Vladimir]

Yea. This guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mika_H%C3%A4kkinen is awesome.