Hibernian Financial Terrorism

[Louis VI the Fat]

Google 2.4% Rate Shows How $60 Billion Lost to Tax Loopholes

Google Inc. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GOOG:US) cut its taxes by $3.1 billion in the last three years using a technique that moves most of its foreign profits through Ireland and the Netherlands to Bermuda. Google’s income shifting -- involving strategies known to lawyers as the “Double Irish” and the “Dutch Sandwich” -- helped reduce its overseas tax rate to 2.4 percent, the lowest of the top five U.S. technology companies by market capitalization, according to regulatory filings (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GOOG:US) in six countries.



“It’s remarkable that Google’s effective rate is that low,” said Martin A. Sullivan (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Martin%20A.%20Sullivan&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1&partialfields=-wnnis:NOAVSYND&lr=-lang_ja), a tax economist who formerly worked for the U.S. Treasury Department. “We know this company operates throughout the world mostly in high-tax countries where the average corporate rate is well over 20 percent.”



The U.S. corporate income-tax rate is 35 percent. In the U.K., Google’s second-biggest market by revenue, it’s 28 percent.



Google, the owner of the world’s most popular search engine, uses a strategy that has gained favor among such companies as Facebook Inc. and Microsoft Corp. The method takes advantage of Irish tax law to legally shuttle profits into and out of subsidiaries there, largely escaping the country’s 12.5 percent income tax. (See an interactive graphic on Google’s tax strategy here (http://www.businessweek.com/technology/google-tax-cut/google-terminal.html).)



The earnings (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GOOG:US) wind up in island havens that levy no corporate income taxes at all. Companies that use the Double Irish arrangement avoid taxes at home and abroad as the U.S. government struggles to close a projected $1.4 trillion budget gap (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=FDEBTY:IND) and European Union countries face a collective projected deficit of 868 billion euros.
The cornerstone of global communism Wall Street ultra-capitalist magazine of Bloomberg, explains how Ireland's taxation politicy is plain piracy, not to be confused for a thriving business environment: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-shows-how-60-billion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html



Ireland's financial piracy undermines the financial stability of the free world. It must be stopped. Ireland's corrupt political class must be ousted, and a new regime installed. One that is accountable, uncorrupt, and supportive of a free market instead of massive government prerogatives.

Perfidious Hibernia is no longer content to just be a financial Somalia, making a living of disrupting free Atlantic trade. Ireland's ill-disciplined behaviour has not only turned it into a pirates' nest, it has now also allowed the Irish government to wield weapons of mass financial destruction, which it is unwilling to give up. Unwilling to give up, even as close to 100 billion in aid packages is poured into the island to stabilise it as we speak.

This can no longer be tolerated by the free, capitalist world. I propose we invade Ireland, and destroy these weapons of mass financial destruction, ready to strike at Europe in 45 minutes.

[Strike For The South]

We need to get rid of allot of Americas rediculous tax loopholes. There are quite simply ineffective

[HoreTore]

Ireland's financial piracy undermines the financial stability of the free world. It must be stopped. Ireland's corrupt political class must be ousted, and a new regime installed.

What did you think you would get from the country with the highest density of gingers in the world?

[gaelic cowboy]

Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression but is not meant to be taken literally.

Go on so then destroy the only good thing about the Irish economy lets all feel high and mighty as the Indians, Brazilian and Chinese gobble them all up.

As usual your fighting the last war and arguing the old mantras on cue blah blah 12.5% corpo tax those graphs show there using Bermuda to avoid paying 12.5% to us too you know.

[Tellos Athenaios]

We need to get rid of allot of Americas rediculous tax loopholes. There are quite simply ineffective

On the contrary, these loopholes are faar to effective.

@Gaelic: as though as this ends up on Ireland, the American taxpayer has a very valid claim on those $3,1 * 10^9 dollars. Google is an American company benefiting from years of American investment in the USA, so it owes the USA taxes on its profits. And the same goes for those other American companies.

Also, note that in this particular game the joke is as much on the Irish treasury as it is on the USA one: Ireland, too, is made to wave goodbye to vast sums of money because of some loophole by which the money eventually ends up in a true tax haven.

[gaelic cowboy]

First we cant get rid of the Dutch part of the loophole as were both in the EU it is basically against the open borders free internal markets rules.

Lets get something straight here ok the tech companies in Ireland actually do make things they do provide actual services, the problem is we cant force a foreign company in this case from Bermuda however fake that might be to pay tax abroad and here.

Google in Dublin actually does do lots of work we just get no cash cos they claim there from Bermuda therefore the European cries of unfair tax competition ring hollow as they are actually working here.

Louis basically jumps up and down blaming Ireland about something that Google goes around, even if we had 100% corpo tax here they still would avoid paying the tax.

Therefore I propose the intellectual property rules be looked at and also the ability to claim management fees from abroad, Ireland gets 12.5% of a larger amount and America get to tax the rest when it goes home 100-12.5 = 87.5

In fact America gets double bubble because there already taxing the American side of the company and they get the profit from Ireland when it goes home. A system that prevents them trying to not repatriate the profit will surely be capable of being implemented by America who then get the profit of goods that were always destined to be sold to Europeans anyway. Ireland neither has the ability or clout to change any of these loopholes so it is up to the big countries to do this I bet though none of them will try though and ten quid says there is plenty French companies availing of that Dutch thing.

There Louis instead of always moaning like yourself about 12.5% corpo tax I just solved the problem of how to pay back your bailout money sooner.:book:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ireland can keep the bailout money. It can keep the EU subsidies too. Those tens of billions each are mere pittances compared to the race to the bottom and outright legalised theft by Ireland.

All I want from Ireland is to behave like a good neigbour and a trustworthy partner. You can keep the money for all I care.



Ireland shouldn't get a penny until it gives up its tax piracy

Cameron says he is being 'good neighbours' with the Irish. Why, when they have been such terrible neighbours to us?


Only the direst necessity would have a Conservative Eurosceptic chancellor shell out to the eurozone; but making the best of it, he claims he is being "good neighbours" with our cousins across the Irish sea. What he does not say – perhaps embarrassed by all that previous praise – is that the Irish have been exceptionally bad neighbours to everyone else.

Only last week another important British company – Northern Foods (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/nov/17/northern-foods-new-name-essenta), now merged with Greencore – shifted its headquarters to Dublin. Just its brass plate and its profits went, not its factories making biscuits and frozen foods. Ireland's corporation tax is 12.5%, the UK's is 28%, dropping to 24% in 2013, and the US rate is 35%. Ireland has played the beggar my neighbour, race-to-the-bottom tax game for many years. Quite why the EU tolerated this is a mystery when a fortune was poured from Brussels to Dublin to pay for a spectacular modernising infrastructure over the years. A few other large companies recently decamped to Dublin from London, advertising giant WPP for one: these are mainly virtual moves for tax purposes only, since virtually no staff go over – and certainly not the board.

[...]

But, in the view of Richard Murphy of Tax Research UK, the corporation tax rate is only a fraction of the true story, a flag to signal to global companies that they will get a phenomenal deal with an Irish relocation. Ireland's real shame is not that, like the UK, it mistook its property boom for a never-ending cash machine. What is unforgivable is its shameless status as Europe's greatest tax haven, helping to cheat tax from the world's treasuries for decades.

It's called the Double Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement) arrangement, and it's often combined with the "Dutch sandwich". Take the classic case of Google, as reported by Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-shows-how-60-billion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html). Google cut its taxes by a phenomenal $3.1bn over the last three years using the "Double Irish" trick to put most of its foreign profits through Dublin and the Netherlands to Bermuda. That reduced its non-US tax bill to just 2.4%. Ireland allows Google, Facebook, Microsoft Corp and many others to shunt profits around subsidiaries so that they escape even Ireland's own low tax rate.
Ireland allows them, quite legally, to pass the profits on to other tax havens that levy no corporation tax at all, paying only tiny sums in passing: Google put 92% of its billions of worldwide non-US profits through Dublin, and it paid Ireland just £18m.

This is a pure tax haven, with the laxest tax regime in the EU, with no controlled foreign companies rules (to limit deferral of tax). Google does bring some work to Ireland – about 2,000 mostly clerical jobs to process paperwork. The losers are not just every country in Europe, but everywhere except the US. Remember that the next time you read Google's sanctimonious logo "Don't be evil". And maybe remember Bono, for whom even 12.5% was too much as U2 shifted its financial base to an even lower tax country, Holland; he would be wise not to promote good causes until U2 relocate to his native land. So why is Ireland not required to put its tax affairs in order and stop cheating all those neighbours now coming to its rescue? IMF doctrine demands countries squeeze the breath out of their people with punitive cuts – and they like low or, even better, no taxes.

The IMF's purgative is an ideological brew; it learns no lessons. When its patients get worse and near death, as Ireland has done after its first terrible dose of cuts, the fund calls for more leeches, mercury and arsenic. That is, of course, the same pre-Keynesian medicine Cameron and Osborne prescribe for us. There is a week before a final settlement: will the rest of Europe really hand over their money without demanding Ireland abandons tax piracy and joins the civilised world?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/22/no-bailout-for-ireland

[Louis VI the Fat]

Go on so then destroy the only good thing about the Irish economy lets all feel high and mighty as the Indians, Brazilian and Chinese gobble them all up.

As usual your fighting the last war and arguing the old mantras on cue blah blah 12.5% corpo tax those graphs show there using Bermuda to avoid paying 12.5% to us too you know.Tax piracy is not the one good thing about the Irish economy. It is one of the root causes of your current misery.

Ninety-two percent of Google's non-US income is taxed in Ireland: $12.5 billion. Do you know how much tax Google pays over it? 18 million pounds. That is what the Irish state receives. The other 99,5% remains untaxed.

It is insane.

A state that grants tax exemption to befriended corporations must find other means of income. Once corporate tax was reduced to 12,5% in 2004, Dublin found funds in property transactions. The Irish government became dependent on an ever inflating property bubble. Dependent on a bloated financial sector. A bubble which the Irish governments were depoendent on and stimulated. As bubbles go, at some point they explode. Hence, Ireland now faces a budget deficit of...32%. It makes Greece look sane and well-administered.



~~o~~o~~oOo~~o~~o~~


Whilst I recognise the Irish love for personal hardship, I must question the sanity of stealing the food of your children to hand it over to a few foreign corporations. Which is, in effect what is happening. The severe, very severe, austerity measures are aimed at Irish citizens. But as the Irish are made to bleed for all they're worth, meanwhile, the right to tax evasion of foreign companies has become the subject of Irish stubborn resistance, complete with nationalist overtones.
It has become almost a bad Irish joke: 'Oh Yeah!? Well you can take away my house, my livelyhood, and even my children. But by Patrick, no foreigner will strip me of my right to get :daisy: by foreigners!!'.



~~o~~o~~oOo~~o~~o~~



Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Intel, others grew big in America. Once they move to Europe, they can sell their products in the entire internal European market. Their high-tech products require little to no local manufacturing, just a headquarters. This they set up in Ireland, for the whole of Europe. No taxes are paid over their profits in Europe.

As a large international company, they now enjoy a massive advantage over other US companies who are starting up in America. They bring home an enormous amount of untaxed foreign profit. Google, Microsoft, etc can simply buy out any emerging domestic competition. So American innovation and competition is obstructed.

Google, Microsoft, pay no taxes. Their competitors, arrived or emerging, located elsewhere in Europe must pay normal taxation. They can not compete with the big boys who on top of enjoying a near monopoly also enjoy tax exemption. Thus European innovation and competition is obstructed.

Irish start-ups must pay a higher tax rate than foreign companies - in Ireland! Ireland has two corporate tax rates: one for small companies, another for large international ones. This creates an unfair advantage to the vested company, stifles innovation. So Irish innovation and competition is obstructed.


Ever wondered why the 4.5 million geographically isolated Fins, with its punitive taxation regime, gave the world Nokia and other new industries, while tax haven Ireland - 4.5 million, geographically isolated - gave the world a record budget deficit and financial crisis? No innovative Irish industry outside of the financial and property markets has sprung up.

The Irish taxation scheme does not produce a thriving, competitive market. It produces gross distortions of the markets. It makes companies dependent on government favours. It stimulates the formation and subsequent protection of large monopolies, especially in the high-tech industry. It stifles homegrown innovation. It is concerned with increasing a share of the pie, not with enlarging the pie. Ireland's tax regime disrupts competition and a functioning market on two continents.

It needs to go the way of East Germany, as another failed experiment in governmental attempt to obstruct a free, functioning market.

[Louis VI the Fat]

One last post, then it's bedtime for Louis!


Japan has the highest corporate taxation, at 40%
America embraces ruthless capitalism, so America taxes companies at a lower rate: 35%. Canada must follow suit, at 36%
Europe, by contrast, is engaged in a race to the bottom - there is always a country willing to undercut its neighbours, to grant priviliges to certain sectors or to befriended industries. So corporate taxation is much lower than in North America or Japan. Varying from 20% in the wild east to 28%/33% in the west. Ireland's rate, meanwhile, is 12,5%.

Now as to which economy of the three - Europe, North America, Japan - is the most advanced and competitive...

I'd say Japan is the most advanced, America the most innovative and competitive. Europe is clearly last.
Europe's tax wars, government benefits and very low corporate taxation do not produce innovation and competition. They distort markets, create and maintain monopolies, create all to co-dependent ties between governments and favoured industries or corporations.


Another effect of the 'race to the bottom' of European corporate taxation is high personal taxation. A government must get it's funds from someplace. In Europe, where too many countries are involved in undercutting each other's corporate taxation, this means compensation is found in high personal taxes. Hence the far larger disposable income of Americans, who do dare to levy taxes on companies so can keep income tax low. Great for stimulating consumption too.
The non-Irish Europeans feel a triple whammy of Ireland's policies: companies leave their countries to set up a bogus headquarters in Dublin, so their taxes are gone. Secondly, corporate taxation is lowered to retain some companies, so total corporate tax decreases even with remaining businesses. Thirdly, personal taxation increases. This is the real transfer of wealth from Europe to Ireland, completely dwarfing the annual billions in EU subsidies.

Although sadly, most of the transfer never reaches Ireland at all, but is transferred to America in the form of tax excemption of the European profits of US companies. All of Europe suffers: American companies can operate tax-free in Europe via Ireland, but European companies can not evade taxes in America.

Many of the US companies that moved to Ireland are ran by Irish Americans, who set up EU headquarters in Ireland for sentimental reasons. Also, no country suffers more from Ireland's tax piracy than Britain. Considering both, one could call it all a belated revenge by the Irish emigrants on the UK. :balloon2:

[Crazed Rabbit]

America embraces ruthless capitalism,

:laugh4: I wish ...

Anyways, Louis, you may notice the real problem here is shifting income to subsidiaries in no-corporate tax countries, like Bermuda. It's preventing such transfers that's the real issue.

CR

[Furunculus]

lol louis, just lol.

perhaps we should reduce our tax rates instead?

[HoreTore]

:laugh4: I wish ...

Anyways, Louis, you may notice the real problem here is shifting income to subsidiaries in no-corporate tax countries, like Bermuda. It's preventing such transfers that's the real issue.

CR

No.

The real problem is the morality of people who think it's OK to take without giving back.

[gaelic cowboy]

Just for everyone again in case there blinded by Louis facts

Bermuda steals management fees from us apparently 12.5% is not the problem the problem is they wont even pay that amount.

We cant stop fake Dutch tax entities paying those management fees to Bermuda thats the rules of the club were in the EU.

Tech companies are actually making things here I actually worked for Intel and I can assure you they are not a bogus Euro Hq using little to no work.
My brother worked for Microsoft he spent many days there working hard and I have friends in IBM or HP and they are also real factories all selling to the EU.

And it is disingenuous to imply America loses jobs to Ireland these jobs were always going to be in the EU as there the Euro HQ for selling into the EU.

If you don't believe me that there real factories go look at them on Google Earth and see the size of them there huge.

Once again I call on the big countries to change the rules on intellectual property and the ability of companies to claim there running a plant in Ireland from Bermuda.

The big countries set these rules up for Banks but they had the unforseen consequence of being applied to actual manufacturing companies around the world.

If you change that Ireland gets more money I'm all for that Louis :balloon:

[Kagemusha]

We need a Global corporate tax, which is the same amount in each and every country. Globalization these days have only become a tool for corporations to exploit work force and find loopholes in taxation. 20 % corporate tax globally and this scherade will be over.
Any country which would refuce, should be judged as global economic terrorist and dealt accordingly.

[rory_20_uk]

That would be great if there were no other factors in every part of the world. Seeing as they are, this is an unbelievably simplistic way of viewing things.

~:smoking:

[Kagemusha]

That would be great if there were no other factors in every part of the world. Seeing as they are, this is an unbelievably simplistic way of viewing things.

~:smoking:

We have other economical deals that cover the globe as well, so this is not any more impossible then those deals. I cant understand why do we have to mutually self destruct our societies and economies, just so investors will be happy and make larger profits.

[HoreTore]

We have other economical deals that cover the globe as well, so this is not any more impossible then those deals. I cant understand why do we have to mutually self destruct our societies and economies, just so investors will be happy and make larger profits.

If it was just about investors making more money....

Unfortunately, this problem is much bigger. It can be compared to giving x number of random big companies a big government subsidy with no string attached. It completely screws over the free market, as the fundamental pillar of a free market is equal rules for everyone.

It keeps dysfunctional garbage companies healthy and profitable while bankrupting healthy companies. It's scary to see how many so-called "supporters of the free market" close their eyes to this. Just goes to show that when most people talk about "the free market" they're actually talking about "screwing over everyone else so I can stuff my own pocket".

[gaelic cowboy]

All we need to do to stop this is to prevent the Bermuda and Dutch angle of this scam, while at the same time ensuring companies pay a fair price for intellectual property to there respective governments.

Once all that is cleared up and done in such a way as there is no other place to flee to then the amount our government collects goes up which is a fair and right thing.

However the problem is that this stuff is all intertwined with all of those corporate banking style rules which go around anyones tax laws and that includes France if it is not done properly it wont change the tax avoidance it will just move and happen again.

Since the G20 and the real big nations make billions from using these tax avoiding Bermuda places there will indeed be no appetite to change this fact of business at all even in France. The graphic posted earlier shows 12.5% is actually avoided here for the majority of there profit as the bulk is moved abroad therefore not our fault whats going on. However this raises an interesting point there are places in Europe with lower tax than Ireland so why pay 12.5% at all if there fake companies making nothing.

The facts of the graphic itself show that Google employs 2000 in Dublin therefore it is clear there not fake they are indeed very real and making actual products and services for consumption.

I agree it is annoying to see companies setup shell companies in Bermuda and Holland but there is no way Ireland can change this in any meaningful way unless everyone changes it together.

[Kagemusha]

If it was just about investors making more money....

Unfortunately, this problem is much bigger. It can be compared to giving x number of random big companies a big government subsidy with no string attached. It completely screws over the free market, as the fundamental pillar of a free market is equal rules for everyone.

It keeps dysfunctional garbage companies healthy and profitable while bankrupting healthy companies. It's scary to see how many so-called "supporters of the free market" close their eyes to this. Just goes to show that when most people talk about "the free market" they're actually talking about "screwing over everyone else so I can stuff my own pocket".

It is quite clear now that the market is global the rules will have to follow and become more or less global also. Mixed economy or Social market economy are to me the only lasting solutions we should base the economical politics globally. Germany and Nordic countries have shown that you can be successful without giving free hand to the market nor the government. Currently we are in a strange downward spiral where governments are making the living standards of their citizens worse in order to attract Corporations to their countries. This is not benefitial to anyone in the long run.

[rory_20_uk]

The WEST is making standards worse as the EAST is competing in more and more Markets. For the last c. 400 years we've managed to bolster our artificially high standard of living by keeping others low. Do we hear the Indians or Chinese retiring on a large pension with comprehensive healthcare at 60 or even 70? How many years do they expect to have after retirement? Here we appear to think 20 years enjoying life is our right. Over there, it's pretty much work until the grave - and unsurprisingly they are more economically competitive because of this.

Globally, the standards of living are increasing, but we squeal as ours is plateauing or even dropping slightly.

~:smoking:

[Kagemusha]

The WEST is making standards worse as the EAST is competing in more and more Markets. For the last c. 400 years we've managed to bolster our artificially high standard of living by keeping others low. Do we hear the Indians or Chinese retiring on a large pension with comprehensive healthcare at 60 or even 70? How many years do they expect to have after retirement? Here we appear to think 20 years enjoying life is our right. Over there, it's pretty much work until the grave - and unsurprisingly they are more economically competitive because of this.

Globally, the standards of living are increasing, but we squeal as ours is plateauing or even dropping slightly.

~:smoking:

You are bit out fo the loop my friend.Maybe as British you can still carry on the weight of the colonialism, but i refuse that burden. After World War II. The economy has changed a lot from "stealing" raw materials from third world countries refining those and creating profit out of that. Today in healthy economies. 70% of private companies are in service´s sector. Basically it is about trading services.
It is a fact that mass industry has been moving to East for quite some time now in pursuit of cheaper labour, but that does not mean we have to dig a hole to ourselves and moan for the curse of white man´s burden. If we refuse to cut the living standards of our citizens.There is still need for high tech and innovation and with setting good educational opportunities with the money we already have. We will have intellectual resources, which the cheap labour countries in the east can hardly match. So there is no weaping over spilled milk. In this case jobs in mass production industry, which in the end might not even go anywhere, but just stop from existing. There are reason´s why factories are being automationed in the west. It is hard to compete with cheap labour against factories that need hardly any at all.

[rory_20_uk]

And our profits came from this era, they didn't appear, and we then invest in other countries.

Our infrastructure also was made on the back of this. Our Universities started and flourished during this time. Hence why we are currently in the services sector which maximises profits. We have robots as employing people is too expensive. Better robots and unemployed as perversely this system is cheaper.

But when the East starts into computing, Investment Banking and Management Consultancy and charges less for it then we are going to be under increasing pressure.

~:smoking:

[Kagemusha]

And our profits came from this era, they didn't appear, and we then invest in other countries.

Our infrastructure also was made on the back of this. Our Universities started and flourished during this time. Hence why we are currently in the services sector which maximises profits. We have robots as employing people is too expensive. Better robots and unemployed as perversely this system is cheaper.

But when the East starts into computing, Investment Banking and Management Consultancy and charges less for it then we are going to be under increasing pressure.

~:smoking:

The thing is that in a global economy, when East will go into the things you mentioned.Their living standards have followed as well, creating lot lesser threat then you are painting. Just to mention an example.Japan. For decades it was babbled that the Eastern economical giant will come sooner or later and buy everything off from the west. What happened? They became more prosperious, understood that investing in their children, so that they could get better education would be worth while.They started spending more on luxuries and finally they understood that many of the things that created their prosperity were no longer profitable and relocated that industry automationed it. Same will happen to China eventually, once people get some money they tend to act pretty much the same, no matter where they live.

[Ser Clegane]

In China we actually already see that salaries are getting very close to European/US levels in cities like Shanghai or Beijing when we are looking at areas like Investment Banking or Management Consulting where multinational companies compete for the top talent

[gaelic cowboy]

There is still need for high tech and innovation and with setting good educational opportunities with the money we already have. We will have intellectual resources, which the cheap labour countries in the east can hardly match. So there is no weaping over spilled milk. In this case jobs in mass production industry, which in the end might not even go anywhere, but just stop from existing. There are reason´s why factories are being automationed in the west. It is hard to compete with cheap labour against factories that need hardly any at all.

The East turns out piles of cheap graduates every year and it is not as simple as saying they are therefore less educated the standard of living is cheaper therefore they are cheaper. They can retain a cheaper lifestyle due to an oppressive government who will put people in jail if the complain too much and they keep strict control on property in China which ensure plenty cheap rural workers for the factories.

It took well over 100 to 150 years to grow out of a system of cheap labour in Europe however our entire welfare state system can collapse much quicker than the East will get dearer, China/India is likely to retain very large pools of cheap labour for a much longer time than the anyone else in history you cant ignore it.

[gaelic cowboy]

In China we actually already see that salaries are getting very close to European/US levels in cities like Shanghai or Beijing when we are looking at areas like Investment Banking or Management Consulting where multinational companies compete for the top talent

That I bet has more to do with inflation due to them probably trying to peg the currency low to entice low tech jobs into China.

If inflation is tackled the low tech jobs will go to Myanmar and other such places but China will still be a cheap location for higher tech solutions for a while longer.

[Vladimir]

I thought it was Double Dutch. I don't know about the Irish Sandwich though...

I don't know. I'm still from the school of thought that believes corporations don't pay taxes. At the very least, the tax rate is deceptive.

[Ser Clegane]

That I bet has more to do with inflation due to them probably trying to peg the currency low to entice low tech jobs into China.

If inflation is tackled the low tech jobs will go to Myanmar and other such places but China will still be a cheap location for higher tech solutions for a while longer.

But we are talking about salaries converted to USD. Cities like Shanghai and Beijing start to get pretty expensive (especially compared to the rest of the country) with all the multinationals and expats being present there. Competition for top people (especially for people who ahev 2 years of work experience with a multinational company under their belt) has led to very significant salary increases over the last years.
Of course we do not see this effect on salaries in manufacturing yet (especially on the shop floor) as this can easily be located in low cost areas of the country and you have a larger pool of people available.
The point is just that I do not see these emerging markets becoming low cost competitors in areas like investment banking or management consulting.

[Kagemusha]

The East turns out piles of cheap graduates every year and it is not as simple as saying they are therefore less educated the standard of living is cheaper therefore they are cheaper. They can retain a cheaper lifestyle due to an oppressive government who will put people in jail if the complain too much and they keep strict control on property in China which ensure plenty cheap rural workers for the factories.

It took well over 100 to 150 years to grow out of a system of cheap labour in Europe however our entire welfare state system can collapse much quicker than the East will get dearer, China/India is likely to retain very large pools of cheap labour for a much longer time than the anyone else in history you cant ignore it.

I just gave you example of Japan. If China will get more prosperous, do you think the population will not become more prosperous? If they will become more educated.Dont you think they just might start demanding for some more rights? You are making China look like some Boogie man that little children should be scared with. I am sure that China will rise as a global economical power, which is only natural, but i dont think it will be the ruin of us. It is not interest of China either.As in Global economy we all are somewhat dependant upon each other. Afterall China needs buyers for their products.
Bigger threat then China to our wellfare state system are countries that try to exploit the clobal economy by playing with their own rules. I am happy to help Ireland with some of my tax money, just like i was with Greece, but the cost is that your economy will be regulated so that it will follow the European standards and you cant be a tax haven anymore, just like Creece had to stop its ridiculous spending.

[gaelic cowboy]

Only last week another important British company – Northern Foods, now merged with Greencore – shifted its headquarters to Dublin. Just its brass plate and its profits went, not its factories making biscuits and frozen foods. Ireland's corporation tax is 12.5%, the UK's is 28%, dropping to 24% in 2013, and the US rate is 35%. Ireland has played the beggar my neighbour, race-to-the-bottom tax game for many years. Quite why the EU tolerated this is a mystery when a fortune was poured from Brussels to Dublin to pay for a spectacular modernising infrastructure over the years. A few other large companies recently decamped to Dublin from London, advertising giant WPP for one: these are mainly virtual moves for tax purposes only, since virtually no staff go over – and certainly not the board.

Hold on is this the same Greencore that the EU actually forced the actual shut down of two plants in Mallow and Carlow respectively with INCORRECT production data.

Greencore is a massive Irish food company that was involved in the Irish sugar industry along with many many other food ingredients concerns. The EU decided to restructure the entire sugar industry and forced countries to cede quota we only had one company so they shut it down to achieve the cut for Ireland now sugar has gone up in price in the EU not down. For obvious reasons the word merger here implies that either Ireland or UK had to lose it's headoffice the UK lost out cos the food ingredients sector is way more advanced here which is what Greencore are they are a food ingredients company. Dont believe me that it is more advanced google things like Kerrygroup, Avonmore, Glanbia, Dairygold the list goes on and on I cant think of them all.

Greencore sugar plant closure 'not necessary' (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1110/greencore.html)


The European Court of Auditors has found that the closure of the Greencore sugar plant in Mallow in 2006, with the loss of 240 jobs, may not have been necessary.
The closure came about as a result of a major restructuring of the EU sugar sector following world trade rulings and a drive to make the sector more competitive.
But in a highly critical report published this afternoon the Court of Auditors says that the European Commission was using out of date information, that overall sugar production had become less competitive as a result of the reforms, and that the cut in prices was not passed on to consumers.
Ireland's member of the European Court of Auditors, Eoin O'Shea, told RTÉ News: 'It's possible that [the Greencore Plant] would still be operating today if it were not for the sugar reforms introduced by the European Commission.'
In 2005 and 2006, the EU negotiated a major reform of the sugar sector partly because subsidised European production allegedly hurt small producers in the developing world.
The plan was to reduce production by 6m tonnes or 30% by 2010 and it was partly done by cutting the price of sugar by 36%.
At the time, there were 285,000 sugar beet growers in the EU, a figure that has since been reduced to 164,000.
In all 75 sugar factories, including the Greencore plant, closed with the loss of 20,000 jobs.
According to the report into the sector by the Luxembourg-based European Court of Auditors, Ireland was the only member state with just one factory to close.
It described the factory as 'large, modern and potentially efficient'.
The European Commission had argued at the time that only factories that became unprofitable after the price cuts were implemented would have closed.
However, today's report shows that 'no comparison of the productivity of individual producers or factories was available'.
It also showed that the Commission was using data from 2001 and that it had not taken account of changes within the Greencore operation when its proposal was made in 2005.
Overall, the report says, sugar production was not made more competitive. It is now controlled by a small few - 75% of the EU's production is now carried out by only six industrial groups.
It says that ultimately the EU has had to become a net importer of sugar, whereas before it was a net exporter. It also said that reductions in the bulk price of sugar were not passed on to the consumer.
Ireland received €213m in restructuring aid after the closure of the Greencore plant, in which 240 factory workers and 3,700 growers lost their jobs.
At the time, much of the debate during the negotiations between member states and the European Commission was over compensation and how much should be shared between Greencore and the workers.
Some Irish farmers fought for the plant to be kept open, while others focussed on what compensation could be achieved.
Ireland East MEP Mairead McGuinness said: 'It is very clear that the Commission has questions to answer arising from the Court of Auditors report. Lessons need to be learned.
'The sugar reforms resulted in the complete loss of the Irish sugar industry.'
Fine Gael Agriculture, Fisheries and Food Spokesperson Andrew Doyle said the report leads to the inescapable conclusion that the Government of the time was asleep at the wheel.
Labour Agriculture Spokesperson Sean Sherlock said that in the wake of the finding, serious questions arise as to the suitability of Mary Coughlan for high office.

In case you still not convinced Greencore is a real company

Shareholding

The Company was established in 1991 through a flotation (IPO) of the state-owned Irish Sugar Corporation by the Irish Government. 55% of the Company was privatized at €1.46 a share. The Government subsequently sold the balance of its holding in 1992 and 1993.

Development
2010

Sale of Continental Convenience Foods to Parcom.

Sale of Greencore Water to Highland Spring.

Sale of Greencore Malt to Axereal.

2009

Sale of interests in SugarPartners.

Head office moves from central Dublin location to new site in Santry.

Opening of second facility in North America in Cincinnati.

Sale of Drummonds business.

2008

Investments at Greencore Malt facility in Buckie to increase capacity to 59,000 tonnes of malt each year.

Greencore North America signs 10-year licensing agreement to manufacture chilled Weight Watchers products for the US market.

Greencore are multiple award winners at the 2008 UK Food Manufacture Awards, including winning the prestious award for 'Company of the Year'.

Greencore Sandwiches re-branded Greencore Food to Go, to reflect broadened scope of business.

Acquired Home Made Brand Foods in Newburyport, Massachusetts to establish Greencore North America.

Chief Financial Officer Patrick Coveney takes over as Group CEO from David Dilger, retiring in April after 12 years in the role.

2007

Acquired the Ross's brand.


Sushi San, a small manufacturer of sushi in Crosby, Liverpool, acquired. Renamed Greencore Food to Go, Crosby.

An additional water facility acquired in Wales, renamed Greencore Water, Blaen Twyni.

Acquired Ministry of Cake, a leading supplier of frozen cakes & desserts for foodservice located in Taunton.

Sold Interchem and the Greencore share in both Odlum's Group and Yeast Products.

2006

Chilled sauces production concentrated at Bristol with closure of satellite site at Chesterfield.

Last sugar site at Mallow closed and joint venture company, SugarPartners established to handle commercial sales of sugar in Ireland.

New Related Property business established to develop former sugar sites and other property assets.

Purchased Oldfield's, a new sandwich facility at Bow in London (re-named Greencore Sandwiches, Bow).

Acquired the Burgess condiments and sauces brand.

2005

Carlow sugar site closed and sugar processing concentrated at Mallow. Banagher Maltings closed. MBO of UK pizza business.

2004

Merged Chilled Foods and Ambient & Frozen Foods divisions to become Greencore Convenience Foods and disposed of UK bread activities through the sale of Rathbones Bakeries.

Introduced new Greencore corporate identity.

2002

Completed the disposal of non-core businesses within the Hazlewood companies as well as Erin Foods and William Rodgers (dried soups and sauces) and Grassland (fertilisers). Raised total proceeds of €126m from disposals during the year.

2001

Raised proceeds of £104m from disposal of non-core businesses within the Hazlewood Companies, as well as James Daly (fats and margarines) and surplus properties.

2001

Acquired Hazlewood Foods plc (convenience foods) for €443m together with borrowings acquired of 227m.

2000

Acquired the Roberts Group Ltd (frozen savouries and desserts) for €30m and William Rodgers (Foods) (dried sauces).

1999

Acquired W.W. Bellamy (Bakers) Ltd (via Kears), Clarendon Agricare (via Interchem) and the balance of Robertson's Ltd (baked goods).

1998

Acquired Paul's Malt and Paramount Foods (pizza).

1997

Acquired balance of Kears.

1996

Acquired Williams Group (malt and grain).

1994

Acquired Belgomalt and increased stake in Kears (baked goods) from 30% to 50%.

1991

Acquired Food Industries (malt, grain) and balance of Odlums.

1990

Acquired Grassland (fertilisers) and 50% of Odlums (flour).

[gaelic cowboy]

I just gave you example of Japan. If China will get more prosperous, do you think the population will not become more prosperous? If they will become more educated.Dont you think they just might start demanding for some more rights? You are making China look like some Boogie man that little children should be scared with. I am sure that China will rise as a global economical power, which is only natural, but i dont think it will be the ruin of us. It is not interest of China either.As in Global economy we all are somewhat dependant upon each other. Afterall China needs buyers for their products.
Bigger threat then China to our wellfare state system are countries that try to exploit the clobal economy by playing with their own rules. I am happy to help Ireland with some of my tax money, just like i was with Greece, but the cost is that your economy will be regulated so that it will follow the European standards and you cant be a tax haven anymore, just like Creece had to stop its ridiculous spending.


Not as quick they will stay relatively cheap for long enough to ruin us all and that is the whole point is it not. Standards will obviously have to drop here in order to level the field so that eventually we can both grow together.

On regulating our economy were cutting benefits here which are too high and that is as it should be, why should your tax money go on dole payments in Ireland far better it go to the banks who are in debt so the money can be paid back to the German, UK and French banks who are owed bond money.

Never again will we have a narrow tax base in this country that was our problem along with a property bubble, we will collect more money but were not about to stand on top of a functioning part of the economy when exports are up 10.9% highest in the EU since last year.

To do so would be silly the global recovery is fragile enough without taxing the working factories.

Final point Ireland is not a tax haven they actually do business here with actual workers not like Bernuda or Holland where there is some office with a telephone your all listening far too much to Louis and lying politicians pretend there is an easy solution to unemployment figures in there respective countries. Wage and energy cost are high here as are transport cost the corporations get low tax to compensate for that but as the Graphic at the start shows there too mean even to pay 12.5% routing it through Bermuda and Holland.

[Kagemusha]

Not as quick they will stay relatively cheap for long enough to ruin us all and that is the whole point is it not. Standards will obviously have to drop here in order to level the field so that eventually we can both grow together.

On regulating our economy were cutting benefits here which are too high and that is as it should be, why should your tax money go on dole payments in Ireland far better it go to the banks who are in debt so the money can be paid back to the German,UK and French banks who are owed bond money.

Never again will we have a narrow tax base in this country that was our problem along with a property bubble, we will collect more money but were not about to stand on top of a functioning part of the economy when exports are up 10.9% highest in the EU since last year.

To do so would be silly the global recovery is fragile enough without taxing the working factories.

Final point Ireland is not a tax haven they actually do business here with actual workers not like Bernuda or Holland where there is some office with a telephone your all listening far too much to Louis and lying politicians pretend there is an easy solution to unemployment figures in there respective countries. Wage and energy cost are high here as are transport cost the corporations get low tax to compensate for that but as the Graphic at the start shows there too mean even to pay 12.5% routing it through Bermuda and Holland.

I guess i have to agree on disagreeing with you. The financial crisis is not about poor Corporations being overtaxed by governments, nor is the medicine for it to lower the life standards of citizens of said countries for the benefit of corporations, by taking away benefits of workers. Ireland is still a tax haven whether or not the corporations are making actual business or not in Ireland. What makes Ireland tax heaven is the fact that Ireland has lowered its corporation taxes on the levels of third world countries in order to draw corporations into Ireland.

Last the difference for me to give my tax money in support of Ireland compared to giving that money to private banks is that i dont have any oblication or solidarity towards private banks, but i do have solidarity towards the Irish people as fellow Europeans.

[Louis VI the Fat]

:laugh4: I wish ...

Anyways, Louis, you may notice the real problem here is shifting income to subsidiaries in no-corporate tax countries, like Bermuda. It's preventing such transfers that's the real issue.

CR1) No. Ireland's parasitic 12,5% corporate tax rate is a big neon flag planted as advertisement on a huge steaming pile of ****. A steaming pile of tax cuts and government benefits and handouts that Ireland gives foreign corporations. It is all intimately tied together.

It makes sense to the small economy. Two percent of a large amount is still a large amount. Take the case of Google alone, which ends up paying that two percent. Europe loses some three billion euros in taxes a year. In return, Ireland receives a measly 25 million in taxes, and 2000 clerk jobs for administration. It is sheer economic vandalism. Nearly three billion of tax revenue forfeited across Europe so one country can make 25 million and a few jobs.



2) America has a 35% corporate tax rate.

Why do people consider the 0%-1% tax country a tax haven, a tax loophole that needs to be closed. But the 12,5% country a 'competitive business environement'. What is the qualitative difference between undercutting by 35% or by 22,5%?

[gaelic cowboy]

It is highly likely that a large number of EU banks are owed bond money by the sickly Irish banks who have suffered a property bust.

In a paradoxical way you are in fact helping yourselves to fireproof your own banks from suffering any Irish loan losses while the Irish taxpayer will agree to pay back your taxpayers.

As long as Portugal and Spain do not blow up now then the Euro is secure and so therefore Eurozone banks are safe that is the real reason of the bailout for Ireland. Our banks are so toxified they will now likely be smashed up and sold off to prevent this madness happening ever again.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The distortion of a functioning market by the Irish taxation policy becomes clear when one considers the following two hypothetical solutions:

Re-instate normal taxation for Google in Europe, let's say at German or US levels. This amounts to three billion euros annually. Those 2000 clerk jobs will remain somehwre in Europe, it doesn;t matter where. Now share the profit, give Ireland, one percent of Europe, its 12,5%: 450 million. Give the other 99% of Europe the remainder, 2,55 billion. Both Ireland and Europe have now benefited tremendously, the two of them!

Even worse is the following thought:

The smart thing to do for Europe is to offer Ireland that it never needs to work again, to offer each Irishman - man, woman and child - the average income of €30k a year. All that Ireland has to do in return is to promise to retire, to cease all economic activity save for spending the money they receive. Europe still benefits in this scenario. For that is the extent of the Irish taxation vandalism, the amount of taxation Europe misses out on just so a tiny island can keep a tiny sum of the enormous sum that remains untaxed in Europe. We should offer Ireland that it never needs to work again.

The Irish are Europe's most expensive citizens by far, so expensive that Europe would still make a profit if it would subsidise all Irish to cease their economic activity. :wall:

[gaelic cowboy]

It makes sense to the small economy. Two percent of a large amount is still a large amount. Take the case of Google alone, which ends up paying that two percent. Europe loses some three billion euros in taxes a year. In return, Ireland receives a measly 25 million in taxes, and 2000 clerk jobs for administration.

Your know nothing about tech companies if you think Google employees are desk clerks there is huge localisation and testing team based in many of these places they have plenty work making Google.FR, Google.DE, Google.whatever.

I agree that we should get more money but you continue to ignore the Bermuda and Dutch angle to this lark because your personally annoyed we got a bailout. It is obvious that the bigger economies already know that these corporations are doing this but to admit it is being done in Bermuda means grabbing a financial nettle they make billions from themselves so they blame 12.5% corpo tax instead cos it is easy to see and shout about.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Your know nothing about tech companies if you think Google employees are desk clerks there is huge localisation and testing team based in many of these places they have plenty work making Google.FR, Google.DE, Google.whatever.

I agree that we should get more money but you continue to ignore the Bermuda and Dutch angle to this lark because your personally annoyed we got a bailout. It is obvious that the bigger economies already know that these companies are doing this but to admit it is done in Bermuda means grabbing a financial nettle they make billions from themselves so they blame 12.5% corpo tax instead cos it is easy to see and shout about.And Monaco, and Switzerland, and Luxembourg. If it were up to me, the tanks would ride out tonight to overthrow these countries.

The financial meltdowns should be what 9-11 was. A warning sign. An end of the line. The final act. No more of this, the stakes have been raised. When Ireland recieves one hundred billion in bailout funds and the working Irishman loses everything he gained the past twenty-five years, then something is awfully amiss.

The game has changed. It is serious. We are being had, sucked dry for all we're worth. We can bail out any crisis, but there must be the condition that it is game over for those responsible. Ireland is bankrupt, it needs to rethink its strategy. I find it incomprehensible that there are nearly inhumane austerity measures for Irish pensioners, while the right of foreign corporations to not pay taxes in Ireland remains unaffected. I think Ireland is mistaken to cling on to its tax policy, to mistake it for the only possible viable economic policy.

[gaelic cowboy]

If you want to see a real Hibernian Financial Terrorist then look no further than this fella

https://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4134/bono1.jpg

Yeah that is right Bono the man who campaigns against the evils of the western finacial system uses the Dutch part of your graphic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/aug/09/artsnews.ireland


Bono may be celebrated for browbeating world leaders into funding debt relief for developing countries, but his Irish rock band is facing criticism for switching its financial affairs overseas to avoid paying higher taxes.
U2's move has been revealed as Bono's California-based venture capital firm, Elevation Partners, confirmed it had invested around $300m (£157m) in Forbes, the US business magazine frequently described as the "bible of capitalism".

Irish politicians have expressed surprise at U2's decision to move part of its multi-million pound operation from Ireland to Amsterdam. The tax rate on royalty earnings in the Netherlands - where many of the Rolling Stones' assets are based - is only a few per cent.

U2's changeover may have been triggered by reforms announced last December by the Irish finance minister, Brian Cowen, who imposed a cap of €250,000 (£168,000) on tax-free incomes for artists resident in the republic. Before the cap, the scheme attracted many famous names to Ireland. But the government came under pressure to curtail the incomes of those benefiting disproportionately from the scheme.

At the time Mr Cowen said: "We cannot stand over a situation in which some high-earning tax residents, through the use of incentive reliefs, can reduce their taxable income to nil."

The Irish Labour party's finance spokeswoman, Joan Burton, said this week: "Having listened to Bono on the necessity for the Irish government to give more money to Ireland Aid ... I am surprised that U2 are not prepared to contribute to the exchequer on a fair basis along with the bulk of Irish taxpayers."

Corporation tax in Ireland is only 12.5%. The standard rate of personal tax is 20%, rising to a top rate of 42%. The band had been able to claim artists' tax relief as songwriters, but the scheme did not cover income from tours and performances.

Alongside Bob Geldof, Bono has spent years cajoling US presidents and other world leaders into increasing debt relief to poorer countries, improving aid to Africa and helping Aids victims. U2's donations to aid organisations have always remained anonymous, although the royalties from several of their songs have been given to charities.

The band will continue to live and work in Ireland, paying other taxes, an industry source told the Guardian. Like other bands, the source added, U2 "try to be as tax efficient as possible". Principle Management, which controls U2's financial affairs, would not comment.

Elevation Partners is a private venture capital firm with six partners, one of whom is Bono. It has an estimated capital value of $1.9bn. U2 were said to be the world's most lucrative group last year, earning more than €210m.

Their success, however, has generated signs of resentment.

Proposals to construct a so-called U2 Tower - the tallest residential development in Ireland on the southside of the Liffey river - have drawn complaints from locals in Dublin's Ringsend. The tower, a 31-floor construction, will house luxury apartments and provide space for the band's recording studios.

The building was originally scheduled to be 60 metres (197ft) high, but last month permission was granted for it to rise to 100 metres. "This tower is going to appear as a monstrosity in what used to be a small maritime village," Damien Cassidy of the Ringsend Environmental Group told BBC radio earlier this week.

[gaelic cowboy]

The game has changed. It is serious. We are being had, sucked dry for all we're worth. We can bail out any crisis, but there must be the condition that it is game over for those responsible. Ireland is bankrupt, it needs to rethink its strategy. I find it incomprehensible that there are nearly inhumane austerity measures for Irish pensioners, while the right of foreign corporations to not pay taxes in Ireland remains unaffected. I think Ireland is mistaken to cling on to its tax policy, to mistake it for the only possible viable economic policy.

We had a property bubble which was used to buy off unions and sweeten election campaigns hence FF were in power since 1997. We were spending too much unsustainable money if we had kept a handle on wage, energy and transport costs and ensured a more sensible minimum wage we possibly might still need a bailout but most likley far far less.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Bono should spend less time in pretentious New York and Paris establishments preaching relief for Africa, and more time in Ireland supporting the new Irish poor who have to pay to the last penny the budget deficit his tax evasion has helped create.

[gaelic cowboy]

Bono should spend less time in pretentious New York and Paris establishments preaching relief for Africa, and more time in Ireland supporting the new Irish poor who have to pay to the last penny the budget deficit his tax evasion has helped create.

Bono apparently he still hasn't found what he's looking for a boot up the :daisy: for free

[HoreTore]

Bono should spend less time in pretentious New York and Paris establishments preaching relief for Africa, and more time in Ireland supporting the new Irish poor who have to pay to the last penny the budget deficit his tax evasion has helped create.

Bono should spend more time locked away in a dark place.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Bono's done to Ireland what Ireland has done to Europe. And why shouldn't he? The morale in Ireland is that it is okay to evade taxes, it is, after all, the nation's national business.


Game theory.

27 people. Each one is presented a choice:
a) All 27 to receive one euro each
b) You get three euros, the others don't get anything

Basically, Ireland has picked option 'b'. (Perhaps fine in itself. However, the natural course for the other 26 now is to ostracise/kill the 'cheating player', to see total income rise eightfold)


In the Google example, Ireland offerd Google tax excemption for all of Google's business in the EU. In exchange for 2000 Irish jobs. (Better to make 3 euros yourself than you and all the others one euro each).
Assuming a German corporate tax rate, this amounts to three bilion euros a year in lost taxes for the rest of Europe. That is, the European taxpayer subsidises Ireland by 1,5 million euros for a single Irish job.

The extent of the Irish parasitic financial practices are such, that it would be cheaper for Europe to offer each Irish 'high tech' Google employee one million euros each, per year, just to cease activity. Irish policy is that detrimental to Europe.

[gaelic cowboy]

Blah blah blah

Assuming a German corporate tax rate means Ireland gets the money not Europe would you really want the last/present government to have had even more money at there disposal. All they did with money was feather there nests and spend spend spend no thanks I glad google codded us otherwise we would be looking for 300 billion euro.

The election is coming early next year so you can wave buy to the toxic Fianna Fail /Greens and say hello to Fine Gael/Labour instead. I predict a 15% corpo tax rate in Ireland at the end of the decade after we have exited this bailiout and can stand up for ourselves. Mainly I see this happening because thats what always happens as the outer regions become more CORE like in there infrastructure the rate naturally goes up. We have fifty years of infrastructure to catch up on we were never going to get it done in ten years so the rate will have to stay where it is for now to compensate it really is as simple as that.

I grow weary of this Louis your talking to the wrong people and reading the wrong papers, in fact your almost catholic in you attempts to deify sweat and labour as if an Intel employee does not work hard 12hrs a day in the Fabs in Ireland.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Assuming a German corporate tax rate means Ireland gets the money not Europe would you really want the last/present government to have had even more money at there disposal. All they did with money was feather there nests and spend spend spend no thanks I glad google codded us otherwise we would be looking for 300 billion euro.

The election is coming early next year so you can wave buy to the toxic FF and say hello to FG/Labour instead I predict a 15% corpo tax rate in Ireland at the end of the decade after we have exited this bailiout and can stand up for ourselves. Mainly I see this happening because thats what always happens as the outer regions become more CORE like in there infrastructure then rate naturally goes up. We have fifty years of infrastructure to catch up on we were never going to get in done in ten years so the rate will have to stay where it is for now to compensate it really is as simple as that.

I grow weary of this Louis your talking to the wrong people and reading the wrong papers, in fact your almost catholic in you attempts to deify sweat and labour as if an Intel employee does not work hard 12hrs a day in the Fabs in Ireland.I have to take it out someplace. I've agitated aginst tax havens many times before. Now Ireland just cost us all 100 billion on top of that. I'm allowed to :daisy: about it for a few days.

Emerging economies can with some decency undercut established economies. As eastern Europe is doing, with their policy of 'no taxation for Chinese corporations operating in Europe'. Ireland, before it self-destructed, was in many ways no longer an emerging economy. It was an excersize in revenge on Britain, with Dublin cheering every time another company moved (nominal) headquarters from the UK to Ireland, proud that Irish GDP per capita (on paper!) succeeded Britain's. British corporate taxes have been forced down as a result, and will soon be little more than half those of America. Tragedy of the commons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

As to whether it will change, I dunno. Ireland's requested special privilige to agree to Lisbon was...that Ireland could continue to offer foreign corporations 12,5% taxation. In a common market, without tax harmonisation, for each country the temptation will always be there to choose the short term private gain over the long term common gain.

[gaelic cowboy]

As to whether it will change, I dunno. Ireland's requested special privilige to agree to Lisbon was...that Ireland could continue to offer foreign corporations 12,5% taxation. In a common market, without tax harmonisation, for each country the temptation will always be there to choose the short term private gain over the long term common gain.

Of course it will change it just wont change soon enough that European politicians can point to a victory etc etc.

Now if we could start a thread on the possibility that any of these bailouts can actually work we can get down to some real debate.

[Furunculus]

And Monaco, and Switzerland, and Luxembourg. If it were up to me, the tanks would ride out tonight to overthrow these countries.



and once again, for all those unsure and as yet unconvinced by the glorious dream of brussels enforced socialism you provide graphic evidence of why they don't want to be a part of it.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

"Corporate Tax" is a complete misnomer. Corporations are merely the tax collectors in such instances. All taxes are paid by individual people, the only question being how directly.

[Banquo's Ghost]

"Corporate Tax" is a complete misnomer. Corporations are merely the tax collectors in such instances. All taxes are paid by individual people, the only question being how directly.

Hmm. One might quibble with this, insofar as corporations are legal individuals, but not people. Corporations therefore have a range of options to avoid tax not open to individual human beings. Corporations also pay tax in their own right, usually on top of the the taxes inflicted on the individuals that make up or own the corporation.

[HoreTore]

"Corporate Tax" is a complete misnomer. Corporations are merely the tax collectors in such instances. All taxes are paid by individual people, the only question being how directly.

All taxes are paid by individuals, but we name the different taxes according to how they are collected.

Thus, the term "corporate tax" is 100% accurate.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

All taxes are paid by individuals, but we name the different taxes according to how they are collected.

Thus, the term "corporate tax" is 100% accurate.

Head Tax, Hearth Tax, Consumption Tax, Sin Tax...I put it to you that, at least in English, taxes tend to be named for whatever is, ostensibly, being taxed. As for-profit-corporations -- legal "citizens" or no -- pass all taxation onto their customers as a cost of doing business, I still assert it is misnomered.

Now, Banquo, you are quite aware that I am implying that corporate tax should be done away with -- as I think it tends to create un-level playing fields. If you'd like me to point out that I believe that Corporations SHOULD have some of their legal personhood rather more clearly defined, you would find me quite amenable. I am a deep believer in personal rights, but corporations are NOT persons who live, breathe, and are responsible to the Creator for their actions (chill out, I will stipulate that many of you do not believe in such, but you still get my meaning).

[Vladimir]

"Corporate Tax" is a complete misnomer. Corporations are merely the tax collectors in such instances. All taxes are paid by individual people, the only question being how directly.

Thank you. I'm not alone. :bow:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Now, Banquo, you are quite aware that I am implying that corporate tax should be done away with -- as I think it tends to create un-level playing fields. If you'd like me to point out that I believe that Corporations SHOULD have some of their legal personhood rather more clearly defined, you would find me quite amenable. I am a deep believer in personal rights, but corporations are NOT persons who live, breathe, and are responsible to the Creator for their actions (chill out, I will stipulate that many of you do believe in such, but you still get my meaning).

Yes, Seamus, I know what you were getting at. Where we might differ is the word "some".

Incorporation is a truly evil manifestation, and to me there is no "some" about its privileges. Rights always require concomitant responsibilities.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Yes, Seamus, I know what you were getting at. Where we might differ is the word "some".

Incorporation is a truly evil manifestation, and to me there is no "some" about its privileges. Rights always require concomitant responsibilities.

Not a' tall me boyo... ;-)


Actually, the element of incorporation that is vital to a modern economy is the separation of corporate and individual assets. If we have to have all companies go back to the old Lloyd's of London model, it will have a steeply chilling effect on investment. This requires that the corporation be enough of a "person" to have standing in court. As to the acretion of other "rights of personhood," I am not nearly so committed. Should corporations have a right to donate to political office-seekers? Does Exxon's freedom of speech equal my own? There are a LOT of other privileges accorded to corporations that have been far too cavalierly defined. Many (most) such privileges might well serve the greater good...but a careful re-evaluation is not out of line.

As you say, privileges go hand-in-hand with responsibilities...and I don't see U.S. Steel having to sign up with the Selective Service like I did.

[Furunculus]

Patrick Honohan certainly seems to believe that the Euro was a principle actor in the Eire disaster: What Went Wrong In Ireland?

http://www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/phonohan/What%20went%20wrong.pdf

[gaelic cowboy]

Patrick Honohan certainly seems to believe that the Euro was a principle actor in the Eire disaster: What Went Wrong In Ireland?

http://www.tcd.ie/Economics/staff/phonohan/What%20went%20wrong.pdf

He had to be appointed to the Central Bank eventually but it was too late to save the country the fools in Fianna Fail had already sank the ship. (along with a conniving ECB)

The government hates him with a passion now as they were basically forced into his appointment and he has consistently rubbished there claims.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Slightly related to the topics discussed in this thread, the EU today opened an antitrust investigation into Google.

Unlike in America, where Google must pay taxes, Google enjoys privately negotiated tax excemption in Europe. As a consequence, whereas Google is merely dominant in America, it enjoys a virtual monopoly in Europe, where it can easily fend of tax paying competitors. To add insult to injury, Google abuses its virtual monopoly to keep down emerging competitors in Europe.


E.U. Opens Antitrust Investigation Into Google


BRUSSELS — The top European antitrust regulator opened an investigation into Google (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/google_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org) on Tuesday to examine allegations that the Internet giant has abused its dominance in online search.

The move follows complaints by specialized search-related companies about “unfavorable treatment of their services in Google’s unpaid and sponsored search results,” the European Commission (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/e/european_commission/index.html?inline=nyt-org) said in a statement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/01/technology/01google.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

[gaelic cowboy]

It will drag on for about a year or two and in the end up they will make some kind of deal just like they did with Microsoft.

[Tellos Athenaios]

This will only be the case if Google is stupid. If it is smart, like Intel it will probably settle for a few $bn straight away.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Not a' tall me boyo... ;-)


Actually, the element of incorporation that is vital to a modern economy is the separation of corporate and individual assets. If we have to have all companies go back to the old Lloyd's of London model, it will have a steeply chilling effect on investment. This requires that the corporation be enough of a "person" to have standing in court. As to the acretion of other "rights of personhood," I am not nearly so committed. Should corporations have a right to donate to political office-seekers? Does Exxon's freedom of speech equal my own? There are a LOT of other privileges accorded to corporations that have been far too cavalierly defined. Many (most) such privileges might well serve the greater good...but a careful re-evaluation is not out of line.

As you say, privileges go hand-in-hand with responsibilities...and I don't see U.S. Steel having to sign up with the Selective Service like I did.

My own, rather independent, view is that the problem with incorporation is that it does separate corporate and individual assets. It's about time all businesses were subject to the same thing: risk.

Corporates that are profligate, uncompetitive and go bust hurt some investors, but hardly ever the eejits in charge that make the mistakes. The old saw that shareholders should hold boards to account is nonsense, since they never do - most corporate shareholders are investment banks or pensions, and just as corrupt as their buddies who happen to be on a board or five.

Business risk ought to be assessed just as in a small business environment - will I work hard enough to ensure I don't lose my home and family? Is my decision sound enough that my children will eat later this month?

To take a current example, if the boards of banks had faced the guarantee that their gambling insanity would have put them on a park bench, bankrupt and penniless - as it has done to many blameless small businesses - would we have seen the "risk" taking of recent years - or the wise, considered loans for real assets and business investment that used to be the norm when bankers were boring members of the community?

Protection from the consequences of risk encourages bad business and huge business that can monopolise markets, and that is why incorporation is an evil.

However, I fear I digress from the topic at hand. :embarassed:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Corporates that are profligate, uncompetitive and go bust hurt some investors, but hardly ever the eejits in charge that make the mistakes. The old saw that shareholders should hold boards to account is nonsense, since they never do - most corporate shareholders are investment banks or pensions, and just as corrupt as their buddies who happen to be on a board or five.

Business risk ought to be assessed just as in a small business environment - will I work hard enough to ensure I don't lose my home and family? Is my decision sound enough that my children will eat later this month?

To take a current example, if the boards of banks had faced the guarantee that their gambling insanity would have put them on a park bench, bankrupt and penniless - as it has done to many blameless small businesses - would we have seen the "risk" taking of recent years - or the wise, considered loans for real assets and business investment that used to be the norm when bankers were boring members of the community?That's socialism!!1! :no:



Protection from the consequences of risk encourages bad business and huge business that can monopolise marketsThat's communism!!1! :no:


However, I fear I digress from the topic at hand. :embarassed:It was all in reply to Seamus, but as far as I'm concerned, it goes right to the essence of this thread.



Once, I was clean-cut, centre-right, free market. Then all hell broke lose.

Suddenly, I am considered a socialist. When to me, I haven't changed, the rest of the world has simply gone mad. All I want is for the return of 'risk' in business, of accountability. An end to the use of public means to support private interests. No more 'private profit, socialised risk'. And all that.

If you turn the private debt of a country into a public debt, then end up having to use your pensioners' money to guarantee this debt, then you ought to be flogged to death. Seeing as how they have managed to catch us all off guard, as far as I'm concerned we'll skip the flogging and hanging, and instead we pay to get it over and done with. But only once, and on the condition we reassert authority: regulation, control, accountability, risk, and functioning markets. Or else it's all just an exersize in daylight robbery.

[gaelic cowboy]

Your too late Louis there making you dependent on us paying back a large debt.

This is a confidence trick pure and simple

1 Encourage borrowing in outlying regions from the core so that both are now co-dependent.

2 The core must be convinced that cancelling any of the bondholder debt that they actually own is immoral.

3 Outlying regions decrease in economic output thereby increasing there inability to pay.

4 Set outliers and core at each other while the masters of the universe win again.

5 I havent figured 5 out yet because a black helicopter is landing outside and is breaking my train of thought.

[HoreTore]

Your too late Louis there making you dependent on us paying back a large debt.

This is a confidence trick pure and simple

1 Encourage borrowing in outlying regions from the core so that both are now co-dependent.

2 The core must be convinced that cancelling any of the bondholder debt that they actually own is immoral.

3 Outlying regions decrease in economic output thereby increasing there inability to pay.

4 Set outliers and core at each other while the masters of the universe win again.

5 I havent figured 5 out yet because a black helicopter is landing outside and is breaking my train of thought.

So..... Step 5 is "?"? Then I know what step 6 is!!



But what about the underpants?