Nigel Farage's speech in the Euro Parliament

[edyzmedieval]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyq7WRr_GPg

Any thoughts?
He's right. I hate to admit it but he is right.

[Beskar]

He is definitely right wing!

But enough of the jokes, he isn't actually right. The only right part is there needs to be EU reform, but I have been saying that myself for a couple of years now. The thing is, what the examples of Ireland, Spain, are examples of the failings of keeping the nation state model within an economic union. The thing is, these problem countries have the problem themselves and it isn't the fault of the Euro, it is the fault of the nationally elected government and the fact is, it is the European Union which is trying to save the government and the national state from itself.

Should get together a real political government of a federal Europe that is representative of the people and the population. Then we can deal with the various issues once and for-all. What is the point having a talking shop of 27 self-interested heads which will conflict over the most minor of issues, and not just have one head to cover everyone?

[Prince Cobra]

Gah! He uses the crisis to launch his war on the EU. As if Herman van Rompuy and the EU are responsible for the crisis. That's a clear propaganda, really.

The EU has tough time but it will have a bigger power once this crisis is over. I doubt sky high deficits will be tolerated in the future in the EU, for example.

Beskar, it's where the Union will go, I hope. However, you know it can't happen that quickly. National government will not give up their powers that easy.

[Beskar]

The current model is so inefficient. What is the point of 27 countries having an embassy each, in each country, etc. Why not just replace all the embassies with one "EU embassy" (member nations could house an ambassador there if they really wanted ontop). Then you have a saving of 96.3% !

Then you can do the same with pretty much any 'bureaucratic' institution within the nation states. Massive savings all around.

[Fragony]

We call it the EUSSR for a reason. The Netherlands should get the hell out, and that isn't just my opinion. Dutchland, Flanders (screw the Walloons), Germany and the Vikings, that's enough.

[InsaneApache]

From the responses so far it seems that the attempt to deny Ireland a general election is of no concern. It should be. Think Pastor Niemöller.

Farage is right. If you continue to subvert democracy and ignore it, it makes civil unrest and ultimately war more likely not less.

The EUs democratic deficit is well known. It seems it wishes to extend that deficit to the member states.

I love the way Von Pumpys face pulls everytime Farage rips him a new one.

[Furunculus]

The current model is so inefficient. What is the point of 27 countries having an embassy each, in each country, etc. Why not just replace all the embassies with one "EU embassy" (member nations could house an ambassador there if they really wanted ontop)



because you first ned to have one common foriegn policy.



Farage is right. If you continue to subvert democracy and ignore it, it makes civil unrest and ultimately war more likely not less.


word.

[Beskar]

because you first ned to have one common foriegn policy.

Let's have one then.


From the responses so far it seems that the attempt to deny Ireland a general election is of no concern.

Yes, dealing with a collapsing country is higher priority than window dressing. At least wait till the economic situation is stable enough for a general election.

[Fragony]

Wut you kidding me? The unelected euro-aparatski's having a say over democratic elections? With the EU you see socialism slowly but surely reaching it's true form, authoritarian, unaccountable, as an euro-sceptic you are already a class enemy, wonder what they fine him this time, and I wonder what they would prefer to do.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Wut you kidding me? The unelected euro-aparatski's having a say over democratic elections? With the EU you see socialism slowly but surely reaching it's true form, authoritarian, unaccountable, as an euro-sceptic you are already a class enemy, wonder what they fine him this time, and I wonder what they would prefer to do.

I used to be quite a Euro-enthusiast, largely because the idea of having a borderless Europe with peaceable co-existence appealed greatly. I'm not a great fan of the nation state as I have always believed that most people truly see themselves as belonging to small regions and local groups. There was a completely unwieldy, but very powerful word included in the early treaties of the EU - subsidiarity. To wit, that power should always belong to the lowest possible rung wherein it was practical to be wielded.

The eurocrats such as Louis* have changed my outlook. Power is reserved to the elites and the centre, and what we are actually seeing is neo-imperialism. Smaller countries are not liberated from their constraints of size by being part of a larger communion, but trampled as pawns in the irreconcilable philosophical wars between the three major powers. Nothing new there then.

This European Union must fail and soon will. From the ashes, perhaps we can hope for a new vision that is not corrupted by power and corporate and political greed.


*I use poor Louis as a totem quite unfairly, on the basis of his current persona here. :smile:

[Tellos Athenaios]

This European Union must fail and soon will. From the ashes, perhaps we can hope for a new vision that is not corrupted by power and corporate and political greed.


... only to corrupt it anew?

[Banquo's Ghost]

... only to corrupt it anew?

Human nature being what it is, almost certainly.

[Fragony]

... only to corrupt it anew?

There is nothing to corrupt the idea is flawed, the nation state should be treated as a given. The democratic vote should always be the highest authority. In the US they say 'write your congressman', do you know who to write a letter?

[Furunculus]

Let's have one then.

fine, find and demonstrate a substantially common position over the vast majority of serious geo-political issues between all involved parties and I'll be right behind you.

we'll start with finland joining NATO..........

[Furunculus]

I used to be quite a Euro-enthusiast, largely because the idea of having a borderless Europe with peaceable co-existence appealed greatly.

i agree with this, but I always believed that we achieved this nirvana with the EC, and that everything since has been a retrograde step that will actually lead to greater disharmony and divisiveness between the peopleS of europe than would otherwise have been the case.

[InsaneApache]

Yes, dealing with a collapsing country is higher priority than window dressing. At least wait till the economic situation is stable enough for a general election.

Thus has been spoken by countless despots and tyrants throughout history.

Socialism indeed.


"What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?" If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.

Wedgie.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I used to be quite a Euro-enthusiast, largely because the idea of having a borderless Europe with peaceable co-existence appealed greatly. I'm not a great fan of the nation state as I have always believed that most people truly see themselves as belonging to small regions and local groups. There was a completely unwieldy, but very powerful word included in the early treaties of the EU - subsidiarity. To wit, that power should always belong to the lowest possible rung wherein it was practical to be wielded.

The eurocrats such as Louis* have changed my outlook. Power is reserved to the elites and the centre, and what we are actually seeing is neo-imperialism. Smaller countries are not liberated from their constraints of size by being part of a larger communion, but trampled as pawns in the irreconcilable philosophical wars between the three major powers. Nothing new there then.

This European Union must fail and soon will. From the ashes, perhaps we can hope for a new vision that is not corrupted by power and corporate and political greed.


*I use poor Louis as a totem quite unfairly, on the basis of his current persona here. :smile:Ah, my dearest, but you forget two crucial elements:

Europe has always been the project of its elites
Europe's elites have always been international

Only the nineteenth and especially the twentieth century saw a a brief exception to the rule, when the masses were at last emancipated, and their ideology triumphed: nationalism. Up to 1914, one could travel from Paris to St. Petersburg without a passport. You'd simply board a train.

For twenty centuries now, European culture has been international. The church, academia, aristocracy, the arts, trade. People in these segments of society operate in an international culture, always have. Their international, elite culture IS Europe. This supranational culture, from Sicily to the North Cape, hangs like a church ceiling above the many regions of Europe.

The priest may preach to a local flock, who are unaware of these things, but the priest has studied in Latin, is instructed by Rome, is part of an international hierarchy. Indeed, one can wonder if not Catholicism created Europe. If that is too bold a claim, then it is hardly so anymore when Europe is thought of as Latin Christianity. The academic, he speaks Latin, he left home at an early age to study in the great universities, with international students studying international subjects.
Then there is the aristocrat, his title linked to the local land. But his family is international, he'll marry from an interregional, international stock, his true allegiance, his real peers, not the local peasantry.
The arts, the architects travel to Rome to study the ancients, to Florence. Joyce finished Ulysses in Paris, where van Gogh and Picasso had painted before. Business, trade, these have spun countless networks over Europe, transporting people, ideas, money, goods.

The internationalism of these segments of society is a constant in European history. Elite here not in a too narrow sense. In the Middle Ages, perhaps one percent, maybe less. Slowly increasing to about a few percent in the nineteenth century, and perhaps as much as fifteen or even more percent nowadays. This pan-European elite is multilingual, can live with the same ease in Paris, or Brussels, or Amsterdam, or move to Frankfurt or London.
Indeed, France's entry into the EU (EEC) was the work of a Luxembourg-born Frenchman with a German name, Robert Schuman, and a Frenchman who had mostly lived in London and the US since the age of sixteen, Jean Monnet.

Another constant is that their international culture has always been mistrusted by the locals. Indeed, with the emphasis of the mistrust often levelled not so much on 'culture', as on 'international'. These are remarkable times. As modern technology has utterly wiped before it all restraints of supra-local communication, so has mistrust of the national and supra-national increased.
(Although, sadly, trust on a local level has decreased too. People do not know who their neighbours are, feel unconnected to their locality. We are witnessing a complete fragmentation, a break-up of society into elementary particles.)


There will always be some friction betwen the local, the regional, the national and the European. The crises of the pat century were not the result of too much of the European level, they were a failure of too little of it. For me, the failures that plague Europe in the 21st century are a failure of too little European thought. too little remebrance of what it means to be European, which makes our civilisation defenseless before its enemies. Too little restraint by europe's elites, who no longer consider it a privilige to perform a public service, but who have adopted the greed of the private sector: the public sector as bottomless through, an instrument for private or particular gain.

And there is too little Europe in the current crisis. Too little political unity, too small a budget, too little international response to an international crisis.

[Beskar]

Wedgie.

What is the point in an election when your own electoral system disappears down the toilet along with the country? Anyone with an ounce of braincell would want to rescue the country first or at least have it stable enough for an election. Sure, Britain was/is in a bad shape, but we are far from the danger. Ireland is a clingon ready to get flushed into economical oblivion in-line with the likes of Zimbabwe and Somalia. It would a be a total wipe-out of public services, pensions, and anarchy, as there would be no money to fund any of the vital services.

No point in an election when there won't be a government anymore because it defaulted and it is in total chaos. Did you not study the inter-war economical situation at all?

[Crazed Rabbit]

What is the point in an election when your own electoral system disappears down the toilet along with the country? Anyone with an ounce of braincell would want to rescue the country first or at least have it stable enough for an election.

The thing about democracy is that the people get to decide that; them and their duly elected representatives in the Irish government. Whether or not someone thinks it's a bad idea is immaterial. If the EU works to prevent an election, they are working against democracy. That is a worrying thought.

Louis; even if all you say is true, the EU has given more power to the elites to have their way over other nations.

CR

[Beskar]

The thing about democracy is that the people get to decide that; them and their duly elected representatives in the Irish government. Whether or not someone thinks it's a bad idea is immaterial. If the EU works to prevent an election, they are working against democracy. That is a worrying thought.

Not really, the EU was trying to stop Ireland from destroying itself. It is like having a younger brother, who is doing some drugs then you and the family have to do an intervention for their own good, even if it is taking away their free will temporary. Sure, you can cry foul and kick a fuss, but the end of the day, Ireland will be better because of it, and so will the younger brother, as they will both get the help they need, even if they might not want it.

[InsaneApache]

So you intend to improve peoples lives by denying them the vote? There's a name for people like that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What is the point in an election when your own electoral system disappears down the toilet along with the country? Anyone with an ounce of braincell would want to rescue the country first or at least have it stable enough for an election. Sure, Britain was/is in a bad shape, but we are far from the danger. Ireland is a clingon ready to get flushed into economical oblivion in-line with the likes of Zimbabwe and Somalia. It would a be a total wipe-out of public services, pensions, and anarchy, as there would be no money to fund any of the vital services.

No point in an election when there won't be a government anymore because it defaulted and it is in total chaos. Did you not study the inter-war economical situation at all?

That's Bull-detritus.

As Gaelic Cowboy pointed out a week ago, Ireland is fully funded until next year, they have enough to time hold a snap election, a beer festival, and suffer the hangover with plenty to spare.

If the Irish want an election, they should get one, if the government falls apart one should be called as normal.

If the EU wants to directly stop that democratic process then it's time to suspend and prosecute the EU President, or whoever has made the decision for him.

Oh and "Banquo for King"!

Fed up with these useless Germans....

[Louis VI the Fat]

Fed up with these useless Germans....Decades of German subsidies have given Europe's periphery a shot at development. As the Germans worked and send their paychecks abroad, instead, the money has been usurped by local corruption.

Then the German currency gave Europe's periphery the luxury of a strong currency. Investments could've been made, savings. Instead, the money has been partied away while the Germans worked and saved.

Now, German bailouts are keeping Europe's corrupt periphery afloat. And they take to the streets in Athens and Dublin, chanting anti-German slogans.


Europe needs more German discipline, not less.

dsiclaimer in case BQ gets nervous again: the ordinary Greek or Irishman saw very little of any of the money, but now has to pay the price for it. This is not right, and in that sense I am with the protestors

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Decades of German subsidies have given Europe's periphery a shot at development. As the Germans worked and send their paychecks abroad, instead, the money has been usurped by local corruption.

Then the German currency gave Europe's periphery the luxury of a strong currency. Investments could've been made, savings. Instead, the money has been partied away while the Germans worked and saved.

Now, German bailouts are keeping Europe's corrupt periphery afloat. And they take to the streets in Athens and Dublin, chanting anti-German slogans.


Europe needs more German discipline, not less.

dsiclaimer in case BQ gets nervous again: the ordinary Greek or Irishman saw very little of any of the money, but now has to pay the price for it. This is not right, and in that sense I am with the protestors

True, but it's not just the Germans making the net contribution, is it Loius?

Why does Britian get a rebate again?

Oh, and just in case anyone missed the reference - the "german" I was refering to is our increasinly weak monarch who has allowed her government to trample her people.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Louis; even if all you say is true, the EU has given more power to the elites to have their way over other nations.

CRPossibly.


The most direct influence of the Euro on the crisis is that it strips countries of independent monetary measures. Not that this comes as a surprise: this was part of the point of a common currency.
The entire periphery loved the Euro when it gave them a strong currency. They could think themselves Germans, paying in rock solid D-marks. However, they were supposed to install German fiscal discipline, to act with discipline, to reform their economies. They didn't. Even in the boom years, they've spend, living in a dreamland. Then reality struck.

Now they shall have to reform in a crisis atmosphere.



The Euro did not create the current crisis. America is the very origin, Iceland (non-EU) the first in Europe. If I should place a blame, then:

Firstly, the national governments of Greece and Ireland (and elsewhere). These countries have been run by corrupt cronies who feasted on Europe for years. Both Greece and Ireland have been extraordinarily poor neighbours, blatantly seeing to their own narrow interests at the expense of all.

Secondly, the financial markets, speculators. Vultures. Self-fullfilling profitisers.

Thirdly, and very much lastly, the Euro.
Let's not forget that one of the largest contributors to the Irish bailout is the very much anti-European, conservative British government. They did not pay ten billion towards the bailout to preserve the EU or to support the 'The National-Communist European Superstate Project'.
Another major contributor is the IMF, which too is not in it to support some political project. (Although the chairman is a French Jew who's the head of the Bilderberg Group! Yes, it's true! Sink yer teeths into that one, you lovers of conspiracy theories!)


PVC - Ah, those Germans. :lightbulb:

[Vladimir]

His message is diluted by his confrontational attitude. I like him but wish he had more tact.

[Louis VI the Fat]

As for Farage

I finally got around to watching that video. Pft.

If one is going to send one hundred billion Euros (a thousand Euro per household), one can at least ask that the recipient has: a) a budget, and b) a government. How would Nigel have it then? Send one hundred billion euros, gift-wrapped, and a note saying 'Do buy yourself something nice for Christmas'?
Ireland can take the bailout or not. Then afterwards, it can call elections, or not. The money should not be transferred during a political void.


We are getting too used to these large sums that are carelessly tossed about lately. One would nearly forget that one hundred billion euros is a staggering amount of money. It is taxpayer money to boot. To insist that any request, the slightest condition, accompanying the transfer of funds of such magnitude to a foreign country should amount to a savage attack on the sovereignity of the recipient strikes me as most peculiar.

If an alcoholic family member asks for money, and you lend him five thousand on the condition he continues his AA course, should this be understood as a savage attack on the personal integrity of the recipient?

[Husar]

I'm totally with Louis, especially on Germans, but also on the crisis and the lending.
If Ireland doesn't like the conditions, they do not have to take the loan, it's a free market of sorts, maybe they can get a better conditioned loan from the US instead? Or from China? Maybe Zimbabwe would lend them the money without any conditions?

[drone]

Not really, the EU was trying to stop Ireland from destroying itself. It is like having a younger brother, who is doing some drugs then you and the family have to do an intervention for their own good, even if it is taking away their free will temporary. Sure, you can cry foul and kick a fuss, but the end of the day, Ireland will be better because of it, and so will the younger brother, as they will both get the help they need, even if they might not want it.
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs.

[InsaneApache]

They just spent 400 years getting rid of the most brutal regime on planet. You EU fans are well and truly :daisy:'d

[Beskar]

We are getting too used to these large sums that are carelessly tossed about lately. One would nearly forget that one hundred billion euros is a staggering amount of money. It is taxpayer money to boot. To insist that any request, the slightest condition, accompanying the transfer of funds of such magnitude to a foreign country should amount to a savage attack on the sovereignity of the recipient strikes me as most peculiar.

Exactly! These people crying about 'democratic processes' as if EU is banning Ireland from ever having an election. :laugh4: When they just wanted to delay it for the transfer. They must live on Mars.

[Andres]

If one is going to send one hundred billion Euros (a thousand Euro per household), one can at least ask that the recipient has: a) a budget, and b) a government. How would Nigel have it then? Send one hundred billion euros, gift-wrapped, and a note saying 'Do buy yourself something nice for Christmas'?
Ireland can take the bailout or not. Then afterwards, it can call elections, or not. The money should not be transferred during a political void.


We are getting too used to these large sums that are carelessly tossed about lately. One would nearly forget that one hundred billion euros is a staggering amount of money. It is taxpayer money to boot. To insist that any request, the slightest condition, accompanying the transfer of funds of such magnitude to a foreign country should amount to a savage attack on the sovereignity of the recipient strikes me as most peculiar.

If an alcoholic family member asks for money, and you lend him five thousand on the condition he continues his AA course, should this be understood as a savage attack on the personal integrity of the recipient?

So true.

If they don't like the conditions, then their democratically elected representatives should refuse the money.

Europe isn't imposing anything on them. Europe offers something under conditions. Ireland can always refuse. There's no obligation whatsoever to accept the money.

Outrage should be directed at the poor excuses for politicians the Irish elected.

[Beskar]

So true,

If they don't like the conditions, then their democratically elected representatives should refuse the money.

Europe isn't imposing anything on them. Europe offers something under conditions. Ireland can always refuse :shrug: The Irish should direct their outrage to the poor excuses for politicians they elected.

Spot on, Andres. You said it better than I could.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Europe has always been the project of its elites
Europe's elites have always been international

....

There will always be some friction betwen the local, the regional, the national and the European. The crises of the pat century were not the result of too much of the European level, they were a failure of too little of it. For me, the failures that plague Europe in the 21st century are a failure of too little European thought. too little remebrance of what it means to be European, which makes our civilisation defenseless before its enemies. Too little restraint by europe's elites, who no longer consider it a privilige to perform a public service, but who have adopted the greed of the private sector: the public sector as bottomless through, an instrument for private or particular gain.

I thought this a good post, and largely correct as an analysis. The problem being that the EU project ceased some time ago to be a political one that could appeal to ordinary citizens, in favour of corporate greed facilitated by corrupt politicians. Those politicians are not restricted to Dublin or Athens, but find their natural homes, unmolested to date, in Paris and Berlin.

Like much of modern "democracy", governments decide on the agenda to suit their corporate paymasters, and force the electorate to their will. Lisbon was the moment this became blatant.


Not really, the EU was trying to stop Ireland from destroying itself.

Let's be clear. Ireland is not destroying itself. The bond markets are the destroyers, peopled by the very parasites who forced governments across the world to pay for their excess, and now determined to profit once again from speculating against those very governments. If the eejits in Dublin had not guaranteed the debts of the bankers via a blank cheque, and had the world allowed the scumsuckers to fall into penury, they would not be in a position to play one nation off against others for profit.



Oh and "Banquo for King"!

Fed up with these useless Germans....

That's very kind, but as I am at pains to point out to those who wave polls demanding that the succession passes to Prince William, you don't vote for kings. As for civil wars (the entertaining option if one eschews democracy) I'm afraid my family has a dismal record of backing the wrong horse in a two-horse race - we tend towards "Wrong but Wromantic", if you follow. :wink:


Decades of German subsidies have given Europe's periphery a shot at development. As the Germans worked and send their paychecks abroad, instead, the money has been usurped by local corruption.Europe needs more German discipline, not less.

dsiclaimer in case BQ gets nervous again: the ordinary Greek or Irishman saw very little of any of the money, but now has to pay the price for it. This is not right, and in that sense I am with the protestors

Interestingly, the current situation can be placed firmly at Berlin's door. Chancellor Merkel's deeply ill-advised and undisciplined musings on limiting the bail-out funds to only a couple of years panicked the markets and she continues to think aloud in that vein. All well and good, if the goal is to destroy the euro and re-establish the mark, but economically illiterate otherwise.


The most direct influence of the Euro on the crisis is that it strips countries of independent monetary measures. Not that this comes as a surprise: this was part of the point of a common currency.
The entire periphery loved the Euro when it gave them a strong currency. They could think themselves Germans, paying in rock solid D-marks. However, they were supposed to install German fiscal discipline, to act with discipline, to reform their economies. They didn't. Even in the boom years, they've spend, living in a dreamland. Then reality struck.

Now they shall have to reform in a crisis atmosphere.

The Euro did not create the current crisis. America is the very origin, Iceland (non-EU) the first in Europe. If I should place a blame, then:

Firstly, the national governments of Greece and Ireland (and elsewhere). These countries have been run by corrupt cronies who feasted on Europe for years. Both Greece and Ireland have been extraordinarily poor neighbours, blatantly seeing to their own narrow interests at the expense of all.

Secondly, the financial markets, speculators. Vultures. Self-fullfilling profitisers.

Thirdly, and very much lastly, the Euro.
Let's not forget that one of the largest contributors to the Irish bailout is the very much anti-European, conservative British government. They did not pay ten billion towards the bailout to preserve the EU or to support the 'The National-Communist European Superstate Project'.
Another major contributor is the IMF, which too is not in it to support some political project. (Although the chairman is a French Jew who's the head of the Bilderberg Group! Yes, it's true! Sink yer teeths into that one, you lovers of conspiracy theories!)

You are so close to the mark in this part that I have the overwhelming desire to accuse you of being a paedophile (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sarkozy-loses-his-cool-with-paedophile-outburst-at-press-2142107.html). :wink:



If Ireland doesn't like the conditions, they do not have to take the loan, it's a free market of sorts, maybe they can get a better conditioned loan from the US instead? Or from China? Maybe Zimbabwe would lend them the money without any conditions?

Or we could default and break the system. You're right, we don't have to take the loan - but tell that to the bully boys sent from Brussels.

[Banquo's Ghost]

So true.

If they don't like the conditions, then their democratically elected representatives should refuse the money.

Europe isn't imposing anything on them. Europe offers something under conditions. Ireland can always refuse. There's no obligation whatsoever to accept the money.

Outrage should be directed at the poor excuses for politicians the Irish elected.

I don't disagree with your last sentence, but the previous part is disingenuous.

Ireland did refuse. We refused several times until the combined pressure of Brussels and the IMF forced the country to swallow the terms.

Why? Because Ireland has to be sacrificed for Spain. The Republic has the funds to continue until well into next year. The urgency demanded now if because the bond markets smell euro blood and Ireland is now weak enough to bully.

[rory_20_uk]

A lesson for all small countries looking to join the EU "dream": you're expendable for the bigger picture and will be sacrificed if required.

~:smoking:

[Banquo's Ghost]

A lesson for all small countries looking to join the EU "dream" throughout history: you're expendable for the bigger picture and will be sacrificed if required.

Fixed for accuracy. :book:

[Slyspy]

The choice appears to be money or democracy.

[Louis VI the Fat]

A lesson for all small countries looking to join the EU "dream": you're expendable for the bigger picture and will be sacrificed if required.

~:smoking:The small country is not at all defenseless. The balance of power, or, in today's world, democratic restraint, preserves their independence. That being guaranteed, a small country can abuse its position of being small for all sorts of nasty business. In contemporary Europe, where punitive expeditions are sadly taboo, the smaller country can parasite on the larger country, unimpeded.

Cases in point:
Switzerland, banking secret, neutrality.
Liechtenstein, banking secret.
Luxembourg, banking secret, tax haven.
Monaco, no income tax haven.
Ireland, no corporate tax haven.
Netherlands, undercuts German taxes.
The semi-independent islands of Guernsey, Man, etc: tax havens.

All of this requires being the smaller country with full access to the larger country.
Ireland's corporate tax regime is a logical function of being one percent of a larger one hundred percent.




Two independent countries:
Country F: tax rate: 30, revenue: 90
Country I: tax rate: 30, revenue: 10
Total revenue: 100.

Should the tax rates be lowered, then this will be the result:
Country F: tax rate: 10, revenue: 30
Country I: tax rate: 30, revenue: 10
Total revenue: 40.

Country F: tax rate: 30, revenue: 90
Country I: tax rate: 10, revenue: 3,3
Total revenue: 93,3.

Now put both F and I in a single market, with unimpeded economical exchange. It now makes sense for the smaller country to prey on the taxes of its larger partner. But not the reverse. Let's assume that reducing the tax rate by two thirds induces one third of business to move to the lower tax rate country:

Country F: tax rate: 30, revenue: 60
Country I: tax rate 10, revenue: 13,3
Total revenue: 73,3

Country F: tax rate: 10, revenue: 63
Country I: tax rate 30, revenue: 7
Total revenue: 70

The lower rate means a profit for the smaller country, whose lower rates are more than offset by higher volume. But it is not sensible for the larger country. This is why Japan and the USA have some of the world's highest corporate tax rates. And why Europe's smaller countries some of the world's lowest. The result is an impoverishment of the whole of Europe, a loss of competitiveness, and higher personal taxes to offset low corporate taxation.


Of the examples above, Europe arrives at this:
Country F: tax rate: 30, revenue: 60
Country I: tax rate 10, revenue: 13,3
Total revenue: 73,3

Note that to earn 3,3, country 'I' reduces total revenue by 26,7. This is the disregard the smaller countries have for the larger ones. As the list at the beginning of my post showed, barely a small European country can resist the temptation to :daisy: the common good for the private gain. :furious3:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Outrage should be directed at the poor excuses for politicians the Irish elected.At the Irish self-serving political class, at the financial 'markets', and at Europe. All share in the blame, all passed the buck on to somebody weaker, more vulnerable. It is a sad day for Europe when the politician can steal from the electorate, international haute finance can steal from a country in distress, and Europe will put a stamp of approval on it all.

Where is the solidarity? Where is the overriding sentiment of 'people first'? Why are we being played against each other, turned into fools by financial crooks? They will not stop.

I am all for bailouts to save the system. But then there must be consequences. The politicans must go, the markets must be re-regulated, the costs must be for the speculators instead of the pensioners. Only on those conditions does it all make sense. As it is, Europe is making itself complicit in daylight robbery of Ireland's poor. And it will not stop. Portugal will be next. Spain maybe.


And what is the crime of these countries? Yes, Greece and Ireland are corrupt basket cases. But Bertie Ahern's Ireland is only barely more corrupt than Sarkozy's France. Both serve a self-enriching class. Ireland ought to serve as a canary in the coalmine to France.
And what of Belgium? The immaturity of both the politicians and of the electorate means Belgium does not have a government, has hardly been governed for three years now. There are debt issues too in Belgium, which need to be adressed.

It is but a thin line which separates Ireland from France or Belgium....

[Furunculus]

"A lesson for all small countries looking to join the EU "dream" throughout history: you're expendable for the bigger picture and will be sacrificed if required."


Fixed for accuracy. :book:

as long as we all now realise, for those that didn't previously, that the european 'dream' is no different from any other stage in history.

[Beskar]

Should do what I proposed ages ago, which is to remove debt from the system and European nations can only borrow money from the European central bank. This way, this would remove any corrupt influences from outside the European banking system.

[rory_20_uk]

Should do what I proposed ages ago, which is to remove debt from the system and European nations can only borrow money from the European central bank. This way, this would remove any corrupt influences from outside the European banking system.

That would be a good idea, but since the EU is a bodge job from beginning ot end that level of structural change is not going to happen.

~:smoking:

[Beskar]

That would be a good idea, but since the EU is a bodge job from beginning ot end that level of structural change is not going to happen.

~:smoking:

Perhaps I should run for a position in Europe then. Get them whipped into serious structural reform. Then with the Europe I will have created, I bet Furunculus would be advocating pro-European views at the end of it.

[Furunculus]

there is no european demos, therefore it is impossible for it to have a kratos that is representative of all, the result being a government that is illegitimate and ultimately a tyranny as its flaws cause it to become ever more remote and contemptuous of its 'citizens'.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I am all for bailouts to save the system. But then there must be consequences. The politicans must go, the markets must be re-regulated, the costs must be for the speculators instead of the pensioners. Only on those conditions does it all make sense. As it is, Europe is making itself complicit in daylight robbery of Ireland's poor. And it will not stop. Portugal will be next. Spain maybe.

I agreed with you up to this point. Europe's corrupt politicians cannot knife one of their own number, they are all complicit in this mess. France and Germany demanding Ireland not hold an election in order to recieve the money is like the wolf and badger telling the fox not to enter the sheep fold.

Europe has no moral or actual authority to try to impose conditions on Ireland's democracy and use money as the stick to beat Ireland into accepting them; especially as an election now might return a more Eurosceptic government.


And what is the crime of these countries? Yes, Greece and Ireland are corrupt basket cases. But Bertie Ahern's Ireland is only barely more corrupt than Sarkozy's France. Both serve a self-enriching class. Ireland ought to serve as a canary in the coalmine to France.
And what of Belgium? The immaturity of both the politicians and of the electorate means Belgium does not have a government, has hardly been governed for three years now. There are debt issues too in Belgium, which need to be adressed.

It is but a thin line which separates Ireland from France or Belgium....

And here you seem to agree with me, so how can you talk of "conditions" like the ones in your previous paragraph.


I thought this a good post, and largely correct as an analysis. The problem being that the EU project ceased some time ago to be a political one that could appeal to ordinary citizens, in favour of corporate greed facilitated by corrupt politicians. Those politicians are not restricted to Dublin or Athens, but find their natural homes, unmolested to date, in Paris and Berlin.

Like much of modern "democracy", governments decide on the agenda to suit their corporate paymasters, and force the electorate to their will. Lisbon was the moment this became blatant.

Can I dare to point out I said this several years ago when you were firmly pro-EU?

something which Europhiles pointedly ignore is that the modern party-political systems effectively make the choice of government one limited by the elite, none of the countries in Europe are "democracies", they far more closely resemble the Roman Republic in its twilight days under Marius, Sulla and Pompey.

If a Caesar rises then I suspect all hope of a restoration of democracy will die and likely it will do so in another bloody war.


That's very kind, but as I am at pains to point out to those who wave polls demanding that the succession passes to Prince William, you don't vote for kings. As for civil wars (the entertaining option if one eschews democracy) I'm afraid my family has a dismal record of backing the wrong horse in a two-horse race - we tend towards "Wrong but Wromantic", if you follow. :wink:

Ah, but an Anglo-Saxon's loyalty is transferable, remember? These fancy French notions of "Feudalism" mean nothing to us, we are simply forced to abide by them.


Interestingly, the current situation can be placed firmly at Berlin's door. Chancellor Merkel's deeply ill-advised and undisciplined musings on limiting the bail-out funds to only a couple of years panicked the markets and she continues to think aloud in that vein. All well and good, if the goal is to destroy the euro and re-establish the mark, but economically illiterate otherwise.

I recall a few months ago that several commentators were saying Germany should jump ship both for it's own good and the Euro's. At this rate the Euro may become a "poor man's currency" while the more wealthy countries operate soveriegn denominations either independantly or in tandem. Such an arrangement would make the weaker economies even more subservient to Europe's "big men".



Or we could default and break the system. You're right, we don't have to take the loan - but tell that to the bully boys sent from Brussels.

Moral coercien has always been effective, and is especially used by tyrants....

[Prince Cobra]

I've read an interesting point of view today. Well, it turns out that with or without the euozone, the EU and etc. Germany, France and others are closely connected to the Irish and Greek and other debts... Why? Because the German, French banks are the main investors in these risky debts. :idea2: EU can simply help to prevent future abuses of state debt but EU has absolutely nothing to do with the bankrupt of Greece and Ireland.

So once again, I can't see any logic in Mr. Farage's words.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Can I dare to point out I said this several years ago when you were firmly pro-EU?

Of course you may. I've been wrong before and no doubt, will be again. :bow:

[gaelic cowboy]

I was young and idealistic I grew up in a country described on the front page of the economist as the Poorest of the Rich during the 1980s. I remember 19 century schools with poor to no heating, I remember it used to take 3 years to get a telephone, I remember a 1000 applications for a single job in the O'Connell Street McDonalds, I remember a lot of worse things than today we will rise again I have no fear of it.

Hi my names is Gaelic Cowboy and I am a repentant Europhile in fact I am now basically Euro-sceptic now. I take no pleasure in this statement or feel any sense of needing to get back at my fellow Europeans it is simply a process I have been swept along by forces outside mine and my countries control.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Pft.

The financial markets undermined Irish sovereignity. The EU and IMF are about restoring it.

Become a speculation-sceptic is you must. Your money is paid to them, not to Europe, we don't see a penny of it.



1916 - Was it for this?

Thursday, November 18, 2010
IT MAY seem strange to some that The Irish Times would ask whether this is what the men of 1916 died for: a bailout from the German chancellor with a few shillings of sympathy from the British chancellor on the side. There is the shame of it all. Having obtained our political independence from Britain to be the masters of our own affairs, we have now surrendered our sovereignty to the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund. Their representatives ride into Merrion Street today.
Fianna Fáil has sometimes served Ireland very well, sometimes very badly. Even in its worst times, however, it retained some respect for its underlying commitment that the Irish should control their own destinies. It lists among its primary aims the commitment “to maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State”. Its founder, Eamon de Valera, in his inaugural address to his new party in 1926, spoke of “the inalienability of national sovereignty” as being fundamental to its beliefs. The Republican Party’s ideals are in tatters now.
The Irish people do not need to be told that, especially for small nations, there is no such thing as absolute sovereignty. We know very well that we have made our independence more meaningful by sharing it with our European neighbours. We are not naive enough to think that this State ever can, or ever could, take large decisions in isolation from the rest of the world. What we do expect, however, is that those decisions will still be our own. A nation’s independence is defined by the choices it can make for itself.
Irish history makes the loss of that sense of choice all the more shameful. The desire to be a sovereign people runs like a seam through all the struggles of the last 200 years. “Self-determination” is a phrase that echoes from the United Irishmen to the Belfast Agreement. It continues to have a genuine resonance for most Irish people today.

The true ignominy of our current situation is not that our sovereignty has been taken away from us, it is that we ourselves have squandered it. Let us not seek to assuage our sense of shame in the comforting illusion that powerful nations in Europe are conspiring to become our masters. We are, after all, no great prize for any would-be overlord now. No rational European would willingly take on the task of cleaning up the mess we have made. It is the incompetence of the governments we ourselves elected that has so deeply compromised our capacity to make our own decisions.

They did so, let us recall, from a period when Irish sovereignty had never been stronger. Our national debt was negligible. The mass emigration that had mocked our claims to be a people in control of our own destiny was reversed. A genuine act of national self-determination had occurred in 1998 when both parts of the island voted to accept the Belfast Agreement. The sense of failure and inferiority had been banished, we thought, for good.

To drag this State down from those heights and make it again subject to the decisions of others is an achievement that will not soon be forgiven. It must mark, surely, the ignominious end of a failed administration.

[gaelic cowboy]

Pft.

The financial markets undermined Irish sovereignity. The EU and IMF are about restoring it.

Become a speculation-sceptic is you must. Your money is paid to them, not to Europe, we don't see a penny of it.

All very true Louis you and me are completely in agreement there, I also know fine well that it was our own bubble that cooked us but the whole spoof and counter spoof since about 2007 has really sickened me on Brussels. I don't hate Frenchmen or Germans or any place it is basically that I am now distrustful of people telling me more debt will solve our problems when debt is what caused it in the first place.

The only people saying burn these bondholders are national leaders and to get medieval on this debt craic are people like Merkel. It has been opposition Fine Gaels stated policy for the last two years to scalp these bondholders hence the unseemly scramble to prevent an election here. National leaders or in our case the potential future one from Fine Gael are the only people I shall listen too cos they are the only people talking sense at the minute.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I don't hate Frenchmen or Germans or any placeHow come you don't hate Germa Ireland please shouldn't retreat in a navel-gazing misery cocoon as a defense mechanism. It is not the end of Ireland. Iceland survived, and the only difference between the two is one letter. Why, the whole of Europe and America suffered a meltdown two years ago. My grandchildren will still be paying. But we'll manage. There's no shame in the odd system crash. It happens.

The Asian Tigers had grown too much too quickly too. They too suffered a financial crisis, end 1990's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Asian_Financial_Crisis.

Although the Asian Tigers themselves prefer the name of 'IMF Crisis' over 'Asian Financial Crisis' - to them, the IMF was the culprit. The IMF was thought to sacrifice the Asian Tigers for the IMF's project of globalised neo-imperialist new world order. Or some such. The 'sovereignity' of the Asian Tigers had to be destroyed by the IMF through the 'imposition of conditions'.

The political results of this retreat into national navel-gazing - hurt pride, sense of abandonment, shame, anger - still reverberate. Anti-Americanism engulfed East Asia. Mistrust of the West. Islamism rose to prominence in Indonesia and elsewhere. Regionalism and separatism rose, sometimes violently, as people turned their back to world and retreated to the safety of their region, nation, or religion.



~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~



Whatever one may think of Europe's bailout - a generous deal that shifts the, rather large, bill of Irish thievery and incompetence to the European taxpayer. Or a nervous Europe firstly worried about its currency - one can scarcely claim this is part of some big plot to destroy Irish' sovereignity. The IMF? The UK Conservatives? Both are massively involved. Is either one interested in paying billions towards a EUSSR-national-socialist Euro Project?

In Farage's alternative universe, Europe seeks to impose a superstate on Europe, in order to, erm, do...something. In order to play Superstate, I guess. And then, erm, then take money from the Europeans to give it to the Europeans. Yeah. Bastards. Probably cause they are Jewish. Yeah. Or something. Maybe they were lefties. Or multicultists.
However that may be, if there is a Project, then any condition accompanying the bailout is an insufferable abuse of a temporary Irish weakness to further undermine its sovereignty and enslave it a little bit more.

[Furunculus]

In Farage's alternative universe, Europe seeks to impose a superstate on Europe, in order to, erm, do...something. In order to play Superstate, I guess. And then, erm, then take money from the Europeans to give it to the Europeans. Yeah. Bastards. Probably cause they are Jewish.


nice godwin!

in my experience euroskeptics don't tend to worry themselves too much with teh joos, that appears to be an obsession with the left-wing.

[Louis VI the Fat]

nice godwin!It's page three already! Somebody's got to do it! Attention spans are stretched, the subject has ran its course. We needs us some exciting Godwins!


In the absense of Page Three Girls that is.

Hmmm...


I hereby officially declare I shall from now on post pictures of topless British lasses on the third page of every Backroom thread! This to stretch...'attention spans', to refresh the subject and lure new readers in. And mostly to prevent Godwins, which, the Backroom mods no doubt will agree, are a much graver offense to common decency than some gilrs, which therefore should be allowed as the lesser of two evils.

[Vladimir]

I hereby officially declare I shall from now on post pictures of topless British lasses on the third page of every Backroom thread! This to stretch...'attention spans', to refresh the subject and lure new readers in. And mostly to prevent Godwins, which, the Backroom mods no doubt will agree, are a much graver offense to common decency than some gilrs, which therefore should be allowed as the lesser of two evils.

Good idea:

https://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6135/ashleyprat.jpg (https://img217.imageshack.us/i/ashleyprat.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (https://imageshack.us)

[gaelic cowboy]

Dont cod yourself that this is charity Louis we can know that for a couple of reasons.

1: The interest rate on the European part of the loan is most likely very very penal the IMF portion of the loan is to be around 4% but the whole package has an average interest rate of 5.8%. Secondary school maths can tell you the Euro part must be above 5.8% interest.

2: That 17.5 billion of Irelands own money is being used in this plan taken from the National Pension Reserve Fund (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/we-must-stump-up-euro175bn-for-fund-2440110.html) sure this reduces how much were borrowing but it was a clever move by the EU as it restricts the incoming governments options next year. (No burning bondholders for you Enda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enda_Kenny))

3: This entire lark is an exercise in preventing an attack on Spain and were all aware it has failed as of this weekend, people are talking on Bloomberg and such are talking about this bailout as only solving 2 quarters of the problem for our banks in Ireland too.

4: No way I will trust a single word from anyone connected to the ECB when they gave Allied Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0723/breaking13.html) a clean bill of health a clear case of either fraud or incompetence on basically everyone in Europe.

6: The opposition were not even allowed to be in the room for a plan they will be caretakers of next year when we start drawing down on this fund. They have been given a sop that they can revise the plan but Olli Rehn has been basically saying all week there is no chance that senior debt will be tackled or even that we can do a debt for equity swap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_restructuring).

7: Now were borrowing at an average of 5.8% for the government when we have been borrowing at an average of 4.5 the ECB gets to offload the Banks on you Louis as your bailing us out and we must you pay back. (While the banks get away with it and there not even mentioned in the four year plan)The ECB must have know long ago this would happen and no attempt was made in two years to sort it out ever Trichet has been asleep at the wheel and stolen your tax money for bondholders.

Yes I agree booms and busts happen all the time and sometimes even major countries end up in the IMF that really is not my point though this feels more like a deal with some Mafia hood. I am confident Ireland will eventually kill these vampire banks and we will all party when they are staked through the heart by these three men Ajai Chopra (http://blog-imfdirect.imf.org/bloggers/ajai-chopra/) Matthew Elderfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Elderfield) Patrick Honohan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Honohan) incidently Honohan is the only fella who anyone sees as an honest broker with regard to the ECB.

Louis do you know Ireland is the only country where a man from the IMF was seen as a more honest broker than our own Eurozone partners and this deal has actually turned two of the most Europhile parties in Ireland into Eurosceptics, people actually shook the IMF guys hands as he walked the streets of Dublin.

Watching the press conference of the terms of the bailout sickened me as the EU members dodged more bullets than agent smith about the terms of payment on the loan, if I was a conspiracy nut it's almost like it is designed to be penal in such a way as to fail.(probably to frighten Portugal not to just jump for a bailout while at the same time ensuring senior debt is protected in Ireland)

The bond traders must be high fiving the thought of all the billions they are going to make from betting against us.( I feel sick just writing it)




I am saying this here and now if/when this plan fails it will be on the EUs head cos the shock will be ten times worse tomorrow than today. One last point when it fails it will lead to severe economic chaos here and it will I am sorry to say result in a return to terrorism in the North as trade with the North will collapse leaving lots of young men with nothing to do in Derry/Belfast etc etc.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Dont cod yourself that this is charity Louis we can know that for a couple of reasons.

1: The interest rate on the European part of the loan is most likely very very penal the IMF portion of the loan is to be around 4% but the whole package has an average interest rate of 5.8%. Secondary school maths can tell you the Euro part must be above 5.8% interest.

2: That 17.5 billion of Irelands own money is being used in this plan taken from the National Pension Reserve Fund (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/we-must-stump-up-euro175bn-for-fund-2440110.html) sure this reduces how much were borrowing but it was a clever move by the EU as it restricts the incoming governments options next year. (No burning bondholders for you Enda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enda_Kenny))

3: This entire lark is an exercise in preventing an attack on Spain and were all aware it has failed as of this weekend, people are talking on Bloomberg and such are talking about this bailout as only solving 2 quarters of the problem for our banks in Ireland too.

4: No way I will trust a single word from anyone connected to the ECB when they gave Allied Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0723/breaking13.html) a clean bill of health a clear case of either fraud or incompetence on basically everyone in Europe.

6: The opposition were not even allowed to be in the room for a plan they will be caretakers of next year when we start drawing down on this fund. They have been given a sop that they can revise the plan but Olli Rehn has been basically saying all week there is no chance that senior debt will be tackled or even that we can do a debt for equity swap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_restructuring).

Yes I agree booms and busts happen all the time and sometimes even major countries end up in the IMF that really is not my point though this feels more like a deal with some Mafia hood. I am confident Ireland will eventually kill these vampire banks and we will all party when they are staked through the heart by these three men Ajai Chopra (http://blog-imfdirect.imf.org/bloggers/ajai-chopra/) Matthew Elderfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Elderfield) Patrick Honohan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Honohan) incidently Honohan is the only fella who anyone sees as an honest broker with regard to the ECB.

Louis do you know Ireland is the only country where a man from the IMF was seen as a more honest broker than our own Eurozone partners and this deal has actually turned two of the most Europhile parties in Ireland into Eurosceptics, people actually shook the IMF guys hands as he walked the streets of Dublin.

Watching the press conference of the terms of the bailout sickened me as the EU members dodged more bullets than agent smith about the terms of payment on the loan, if I was a conspiracy nut it's almost like it is designed to be penal in such a way as to fail.(probably to frighten Portugal not to just jump for a bailout while at the same time ensuring senior debt is protected in Ireland)

The bond traders must be high fiving the thought of all the billions they are going to make from betting against us.( I feel sick just writing it)




I am saying this here and now if/when this plan fails it will be on the EUs head cos the shock will be ten times worse tomorrow than today. One last point when it fails it will lead to severe economic chaos here and it will I am sorry to say result in a return to terrorism in the North as trade with the North will collapse leaving lots of young men with nothing to do in Derry/Belfast etc etc.Well if you don't like the terms of our perennial enslavement of Ireland you can create hyperinflation in three years time, organise a guinesshall putsch, and then seize power by 2023. Then by 2029 you can invade Poland and start killing their Jews in retaliation.
/Godwin


It was the Germans who pushed for the high interest, and France which tried to lower it as much as possible. :yes:

[Vladimir]

Well if you don't like the terms of our perennial enslavement of Ireland you can create hyperinflation in three years time, organise a guinesshall putsch, and then seize power by 2023. Then by 2029 you can invade Poland and start killing their Jews in retaliation.
/Godwin


It was the Germans who pushed for the high interest, and France which tried to lower it as much as possible. :yes:

We're not on page three yet!

[gaelic cowboy]

There is no need for any putsch the Neo-IRA will basically start killing English people again soon, Gerry and his mates will be abandoned by a new hardcore of violent men and the cycle will begin again. If Ireland is hammered enough then the consequences for London and it's financial sector will ensure a busted Euro economy in short order, twill seem mighty to the IRA men allright but :daisy: sod all use to the new working poor Irish.

[Furunculus]

4: No way I will trust a single word from anyone connected to the ECB when they gave Allied Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0723/breaking13.html) a clean bill of health a clear case of either fraud or incompetence on basically everyone in Europe.



sorry, you believed them!?!?

the euro-bank checks were always an exercise political confidence, created by politicians who never realiased that the markets wouldn't believe, which they never did.

it isn't like i wasn't saying this some months ago.......




It was the Germans who pushed for the high interest, and France which tried to lower it as much as possible. :yes:

and how well has that worked out for everyone?

if you want monetary union, you need political union, to justify a transfer union.

"we're one big family, we're in this together, of course we'll support uncle bob when he's having a hard time"

without that the euro, as currently constituted and populated, is a dangerous idiocy.

[Beskar]

if you want monetary union, you need political union, to justify a transfer union.

"we're one big family, we're in this together, of course we'll support uncle bob when he's having a hard time"

without that the euro, as currently constituted and populated, is a dangerous idiocy.

I told you we agree.

[Furunculus]

I told you we agree.

quite, now find me successful referenda from the peoples of all 27 nations agreeing to a common economic government, a transfer union to bring other 'regions' up to the competitiveness of places like germany, and a common foriegn policy on all substantial issues between all parties.

you didn't answer the question last time, and you can't this time either.

[Beskar]

quite, now find me successful referenda from the peoples of all 27 nations agreeing to a common economic government, a transfer union to bring other 'regions' up to the competitiveness of places like germany, and a common foriegn policy on all substantial issues between all parties.

you didn't answer the question last time, and you can't this time either.

I would create one, this is after I invested the time and effort in designing the structural framework to allow such an union to happen. No point voting yes when you haven't got the product developed to a degree so people can realistically vote "yes" on such a framework.

As unfortunate as it is, I do not run the European Union.

[Louis VI the Fat]

"we're one big family, we're in this together, of course we'll support uncle bob when he's having a hard time"

without that the euro, as currently constituted and populated, is a dangerous idiocy.Up to two years ago the Irish enjoyed the highest standard of living in the Union, behind Luxembourg. Big cars, parties, second homes.

Meanwhile, a German could no longer afford to holiday in Ireland. Too expensive for tax-paying European citizens.

Then the Irish pyramid collapsed. Irish irresponsiblity and greed endangered the currency of Europe. This is not a game, Europe is not a casino. This is our pensions, our financial stability. Europe doesn't need irrsponsible crooks playing Europe like a casino. Like an infite ATM machine.

They partied, they had all the fun, they spend like crazy. At the expense and at the risk of the - less wealthy! - other Europeans. Now the gamble has become undone. The European taxpayer, who has worked and saved all these years, must send these savings as a loan, tens of billions of euros, to rescue his currency.

What should Europe do? Send free money? In that case, I know what I would do if I were in charge of a small country. I'd take the gamble too, risk it all. Ten years of fun, free money for me and my friends, and when the music stops, the bill is for Europe.
Therefore there must be some stern conditions to a bailout. Or else it will be an open invitation for others to take our pensions and gamble with them in a casino.


Ireland will now have to return to the income level of, what?, 2002, 2003? That's all.

[Furunculus]

I would create one, this is after I invested the time and effort in designing the structural framework to allow such an union to happen. No point voting yes when you haven't got the product developed to a degree so people can realistically vote "yes" on such a framework.

As unfortunate as it is, I do not run the European Union.

once again you neglect the part where this is a representative democracy peopled with citizens who have willingly consented to be ruled from brussels, why does this always escape you? is it because you know best?


Up to two years ago the Irish enjoyed the highest standard of living in the Union, behind Luxembourg. Big cars, parties, second homes.

Meanwhile, a German could no longer afford to holiday in Ireland. Too expensive for tax-paying European citizens.

Then the Irish pyramid collapsed. Irish irresponsiblity and greed endangered the currency of Europe. This is not a game, Europe is not a casino. This is our pensions, our financial stability. Europe doesn't need irrsponsible crooks playing Europe like a casino. Like an infite ATM machine.

They partied, they had all the fun, they spend like crazy. At the expense and at the risk of the - less wealthy! - other Europeans. Now the gamble has become undone. The European taxpayer, who has worked and saved all these years, must send these savings as a loan, tens of billions of euros, to rescue his currency.

What should Europe do? Send free money? In that case, I know what I would do if I were in charge of a small country. I'd take the gamble too, risk it all. Ten years of fun, free money for me and my friends, and when the music stops, the bill is for Europe.
Therefore there must be some stern conditions to a bailout. Or else it will be an open invitation for others to take our pensions and gamble with them in a casino.


Ireland will now have to return to the income level of, what?, 2002, 2003? That's all.

i'm sorry louis, i'm not sure how this answers the diagnosis that there is no common people to accept a common discipline, not too the prognosis that the Eurozone as currently constituted and populated, is a dangerous idiocy.......?

[Louis VI the Fat]

i'm sorry louis, i'm not sure how this...I answered to the point that in 'one big family, one takes care of one another'.

There is a rationale behind the conditions of the bailout, behind the interest rate. In that light, the interest rate is still quite low.

That is because there is another mechanism at work. The other side of the coin. Which is, that it is not 'Ireland' which partied, and it is not 'Ireland' which must foot the bill now. It were the wealthy Irish and their foreign friends who made billions, and the ordinary Irishman who must pay the bill now. Most Irish never saw a whole lot of the money to begin with. Now, it has disappeared into the hands of a few. The bill is for the others.

This is the tragedy behind the bailout. Any condition that punishes, seeks retribution, hits the wrong people. In effect, the bondholders and the politicians are holding the Irish people ransom. Are making Europe complicit in the robbery of them. :bigcry:


WHEN WILL THE DEATH PENALTY BE REINSTATED IM SICK OF THIS HANG SOME BONDHOLDERS AND SPECULATORS ALREADY

[InsaneApache]

If you restore the death penalty you'd have to leave the EU.

It seems that Beskar doesn't like democracy that much. All those pesky peasants voting the wrong way, what, what. Pip pip. :toff:

[Vladimir]

If you restore the death penalty you'd have to leave the EU.

It seems that Beskar doesn't like democracy that much. All those pesky peasants voting the wrong way, what, what. Pip pip. :toff:

I wonder if his water is blue.

[Beskar]

I wonder if his water is blue.

Depends on what it is reflecting.

[Furunculus]

Mervyn Kings own moment of fame from the wiki-leaks revelations:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8172277/WikiLeaks-Bank-chiefs-great-concerns-for-David-Cameron-and-George-Osborne.html

“Leaders in Germany and France have recognised that allowing monetary union to happen without corresponding political cohesion was a mistake and one that needed to be rectified.”

A stupid, dumb, ridiculous political project sparked by ideological idiocy, that should never have been borne into this world.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Mervyn Kings own moment of fame from the wiki-leaks revelations:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8172277/WikiLeaks-Bank-chiefs-great-concerns-for-David-Cameron-and-George-Osborne.html

“Leaders in Germany and France have recognised that allowing monetary union to happen without corresponding political cohesion was a mistake and one that needed to be rectified.”

A stupid, dumb, ridiculous political project sparked by ideological idiocy, that should never have been borne into this world.I am not sure you are not reading something else into this. Not the monetary union is the mistake. The mistake is a monetary union without corresponding policial union. Rectifying this mistake means not to abolish the monetary union, but to deepen the political cohesion. That is what he expects to happen, and this is what is revealed in the leaked cable.

Mervyn King, the governor of the Bank of England, believes political cohesion will accelerate because of the crisis:



Other cables disclosed that Mr King believes the economic crisis among eurozone countries will accelerate political union.

The Governor told US diplomats: “Leaders in Germany and France have recognised that allowing monetary union to happen without corresponding political cohesion was a mistake and one that needed to be rectified.”

Let's hope he'll be proven right! :balloon2:


Although I disagree it was a mistake. We have known all along that the single currency is one step of a project, that should lead to more tax harmonisation, economic integration, and political cohesion. In boom times, governments have the luxury of postponing reform. Now there shall have to be structural reforms in a crisis atmosphere. But then, that's customary.

[Furunculus]

I am not sure you are not reading something else into this. Not the monetary union is the mistake. The mistake is a monetary union without corresponding policial union. Rectifying this mistake means not to abolish the monetary union, but to deepen the political cohesion. That is what he expects to happen, and this is what is revealed in the leaked cable.

Mervyn King, the governor of the Bank of England, believes political cohesion will accelerate because of the crisis:



Other cables disclosed that Mr King believes the economic crisis among eurozone countries will accelerate political union.

The Governor told US diplomats: “Leaders in Germany and France have recognised that allowing monetary union to happen without corresponding political cohesion was a mistake and one that needed to be rectified.”

Let's hope he'll be proven right! :balloon2:


Although I disagree it was a mistake. We have known all along that the single currency is one step of a project, that should lead to more tax harmonisation, economic integration, and political cohesion. In boom times, governments have the luxury of postponing reform. Now there shall have to be structural reforms in a crisis atmosphere. But then, that's customary.

no, i get that, as said to Beskar some hours ago:


Germany's rules based system now being implemented would work without the PIIGS, but as constituted with all 17 (18?) members it can only EVER work with political union to justify that transfer union and regulatory harmony required of a monetary union.

until you have a mandate for that political union, or the periphery leaves it's a stupid, dumb, ridiculous political project sparked by ideological idiocy, that should never have been borne into this world!

well good luck with that political union, brussels has already turned ireland and greece into satrapies, and generated the loathing of moderate europhiles such as GC, in a couple of months you can add portugal to that list, and then spain.

i always said that ever-deeper-union would lead to a more remote and more authoritarian EU, i didn't realise it would start to happen so soon!

EUSSR FTW.

[Vladimir]

Just give the regional governors direct control over their territories.