Balls: Scott Walker has 'em

[Vuk]

And if you need any proof (http://badgerherald.com/news/2010/12/08/walker_unions_face_o.php).
I am so glad that Wisconsinites smartened up and voted for this man. This is what Wisconsin needs...this is what America needs. Unions are the problems in soooo many industries, not least of all: education.

[HoreTore]

Yes.

Taking away the freedom to organize makes us more free. And war is peace.

[woad&fangs]

Yep, the biggest problem with Wisconsin schools is the unions, not the ever-decreasing funding which will only decrease further under Walker. He is intent on running Wisconsin's greatest asset into the ground with his penny-pinching.

[Vuk]

Yep, the biggest problem with Wisconsin schools is the unions, not the ever-decreasing funding which will only decrease further under Walker. He is intent on running Wisconsin's greatest asset into the ground with his penny-pinching.

The US spends more on education than any country in the world. Funding is not the issue. In the city where I live, my dad used to work part time as a mail man. Up on the big hill on the big lake, almost half of the big houses belonged to those poor teachers. I'm sorry, but considering the 9!66 poor job that they are doing, they don't deserve half of that.

[Shibumi]

Sounds like rather extreme mercantilism if you ask me.

Of course not surprising, coming from the US.

[Vuk]

Sounds like rather extreme mercantilism if you ask me.

Of course not surprising, coming from the US.

Yeah, aren't we great?

[Shibumi]

Yeah, aren't we great?

As great as brave and land of the free.

And here silly ol' me thought being against the right to organize was more commonly found in third world dictatorships. But then again, I thought the same about spying on ones own population, torture, imprisonment without trial and so on...

I just have to embrace the zeitgeist, I guess.

[HoreTore]

As great as brave and land of the free.

And here silly ol' me thought being against the right to organize was more commonly found in third world dictatorships. But then again, I thought the same about spying on ones own population, torture, imprisonment without trial and so on...

I just have to embrace the zeitgast, I guess.

The real problem the US faces, is not that the workers have organized, as they have here too. The problem is that the employers haven't done the same. I attribute that to the silly american notion that being alone in the world is somehow good.

[Beskar]

He might have the balls, but he lacks a brain.

[Strike For The South]

As a % of GDP the US spends as much on education as Estonia

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp

[HoreTore]

As a % of GDP the US spends as much on education as Estonia

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp

Facts are for liberals.

[Strike For The South]

Facts are for liberals.

Now that Vuk has lied to all of us can we lock the thread?

Do people in Wisconsion have that unholy grating accent like they do in Minnasoader?

If yes, then nuke

[Ronin]

As great as brave and land of the free.


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[woad&fangs]

As a % of GDP the US spends as much on education as Estonia

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp

:grin:

Only the really rural Wisconsinites have that dorky Fargo accent. Most of us do not.

[Yoyoma1910]

The US spends more on education than any country in the world. Funding is not the issue. In the city where I live, my dad used to work part time as a mail man. Up on the big hill on the big lake, almost half of the big houses belonged to those poor teachers. I'm sorry, but considering the 9!66 poor job that they are doing, they don't deserve half of that.

Is that per person? (http://www.visualeconomics.com/how-countries-spend-their-money/)

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yes.

Taking away the freedom to organize makes us more free. And war is peace.

Way to whack that strawman.


Decertifying unions would mean employers would not be held to agreements to only hire union members, which would decrease a union’s ability to negotiate with the state.

Gee, that's not taking away anyone's freedom to organize, it's giving employers and employees the freedom to work together outside of union agreements.


As a % of GDP the US spends as much on education as Estonia

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ed...pending-of-gdp

And as actual absolute dollars, the US spends so very much more, since our GDP is humongous.

I'm for prioritizing education, but that isn't the same thing as doing whatever the teacher's unions want.

CR

[Strike For The South]

I'm for prioritizing education, but that isn't the same thing as doing whatever the teacher's unions want.

CR

I agree but Vuks postulation that teachers live up on the hill is stupid and takes away from meaningful disscussion. A tired old talking point of conservative culture wars that any serious observer brushes off on his way to finding the root of the problem

Not that I expect much better

[Vuk]

I agree but Vuks postulation that teachers live up on the hill is stupid and takes away from meaningful disscussion. A tired old talking point of conservative culture wars that any serious observer brushes off on his way to finding the root of the problem

Not that I expect much better

No, it is the truth. Not all teachers are wealthy of course, and some teachers make more than others. What I said about teachers living on the lake was from my own observations and that of my father. (he delivered their mail)
Many teachers work only half the year, and should be paid for half a year's work if they do. ($20-30k) They should get more money if they do a better job teaching. Teacher's unions should be abolished and the field made competitive.

[Strike For The South]

No, it is the truth. Not all teachers are wealthy of course, and some teachers make more than others. What I said about teachers living on the lake was from my own observations and that of my father. (he delivered their mail)

The average salary for a teacher in Wisconsion is 46,930 dollars American. I would hope a lake house would cost more than that.
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary

The average salary for a postman is 54,000

http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-Mailman

So tell me Vuk did your family have a jetski to go along with the lakehouse?




Many teachers work only half the year, and should be paid for half a year's work if they do. ($20-30k) They should get more money if they do a better job teaching. Teacher's unions should be abolished and the field made competitive.

Bollocks, do teachers work the whole year? No. Do they work more than half? Yes.

Teachers are also entrusted with ya know TEACHING OUR YOUTH. A premium should be put on such a job not to mention you need a 4 year degree to teach in which you specialize in your feild and education. Allot goes into being a teacher.

[Vuk]

The average salary for a teacher in Wisconsion is 46,930 dollars American. I would hope a lake house would cost more than that.
http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary

The average salary for a postman is 54,000

http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-Mailman

So tell me Vuk did your family have a jetski to go along with the lakehouse?





Bollocks, do teachers work the whole year? No. Do they work more than half? Yes.

Teachers are also entrusted with ya know TEACHING OUR YOUTH. A premium should be put on such a job not to mention you need a 4 year degree to teach in which you specialize in your feild and education. Allot goes into being a teacher.

And you think that $46,930 is a deserved salary for someone who works only a few months of the year and completely fails at their job? Also, you are forgetting the outrageous benefits that teachers get, that makes them far wealthier than their salary shows.


EDIT: BTW, this is the average wage of Middle School Teachers according to BLS.gov...not a teachers site.
25-2022 Middle School Teachers, Except Special and Vocational Education: $53,550

And for mailmen:
Postal Service Mail Carriers $48,940
And guess what? Mailmen work all year long, through any weather.

[Strike For The South]

And you think that $46,930 is a deserved salary for someone who works only a few months of the year and completely fails at their job? Also, you are forgetting the outrageous benefits that teachers get, that makes them far wealthier than their salary shows.



Benefits were 52.5% above the U.S. mean ($1,854 vs. $1,216)




http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes/45306572.html (http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes/45306572.html)

I couldn't find an exact number for a postman but I would imagine they stand toe to toe

I think it is a deserved salary for someone who spent 4 years in school and took a thankless job which is constantly framed in evil terms. Is there something wrong with education system? yes. Is a pay by performace system needed? maybe. First we have to nail down what the problem is and then we must define failure. The American education system has produced many great minds along with many derlicts.

You still have yet to tell me how growing up on the lake was.

[Vuk]

http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes/45306572.html (http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes/45306572.html)

I couldn't find an exact number for a postman but I would imagine they stand toe to toe

I think it is a deserved salary for someone who spent 4 years in school and took a thankless job which is constantly framed in evil terms. Is there something wrong with education system? yes. Is a pay by performace system needed? maybe. First we have to nail down what the problem is and then we must define failure. The American education system has produced many great minds along with many derlicts.

You still have yet to tell me how growing up on the lake was.

Maybe you should go back and check your figures Strike. I gave you some good ones to work with that I took from BLS.gov.
Who cares if they spent 4 years in school if they cannot do their jobs? Why would I hire someone to do nothing because they are well schooled?
And what do you mean thankless? People treat teachers as if they are untouchable. Teachers are usually revered, and that is one of the problem as to why it is so hard to reform the education system. I hate to say it, but a good start would be to cut pay on teacher's salaries.
If they do not work a full year, then they should not be paid the wages of someone who does. They work a second job over the summer instead of going on vacations.
The fact is Strike, that American teachers have let the children who they are supposed to teach down, have let thier parents down, and have let their country down. There are literally kids in some of my college classes who have a hard time reading.
The first step in reforming education is to take down the teacher's unions. Before you do that, reform will never work.

[HoreTore]

Many teachers work only half the year

WHAT? The "vacations" aren't vacations as you have, it's time off because we have longer weeks than others.

And quantifying a teaching job is a retarded idea.

[Strike For The South]

Maybe you should go back and check your figures Strike. I gave you some good ones to work with that I took from BLS.gov.
Who cares if they spent 4 years in school if they cannot do their jobs? Why would I hire someone to do nothing because they are well schooled?
Define failure and we can go from there


And what do you mean thankless? People treat teachers as if they are untouchable. Teachers are usually revered, and that is one of the problem as to why it is so hard to reform the education system. I hate to say it, but a good start would be to cut pay on teacher's salaries.
If they do not work a full year, then they should not be paid the wages of someone who does. They work a second job over the summer instead of going on vacations.

All of the teachers I knew growing up had a second job or worked to advance there teaching carrers over the summer, none sat.


The fact is Strike, that American teachers have let the children who they are supposed to teach down, have let thier parents down, and have let their country down. There are literally kids in some of my college classes who have a hard time reading.
The first step in reforming education is to take down the teacher's unions. Before you do that, reform will never work.

Of course no onus is ever put on the child or the parent themselves. Teachers are put in a practically hopless position of being babysitter,caregiver, and knoweledge provider.

Do you mind actually linking those stats? I still am coming up with the 49 number

http://www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol11No3/Niederjohn11.3.pdf

You still also need to send me pictures of the lake.

Vuk I do not disagree that the education system is in need of reform and that the teachers union will be a big part of that. But do not frame teachers as lazy and sucking of some tit when they are not. Also do not use another government employee who gets paid basically the same as a juxtaposition. Teaching is work many people do not understand

[Vuk]

Define failure and we can go from there

Students are supposed to end their term having at least a firm grasp of what they were taught. As it is, many cannot even write or read. That is failure. More specific than that would require researching at setting exact standards. I think we can both agree though, that generally, teachers have failed to educate their students as they are expected.


Of course no onus is ever put on the child or the parent themselves. Teachers are put in a practically hopless position of being babysitter,caregiver, and knoweledge provider.

Not true at all, I believe that the second most important thing to do is to punish parents who fail to make their children do thier homework or to home educate them by placing a financial burden on them. It is then in the parent's best interests to take their children's education into their own hands as much as possible and to cooperate with the teachers.

Do you mind actually linking those stats? I still am coming up with the 49 number

As I said, they came from the BLS.gov. Here are exact links to the two figures:
http://bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#53-0000

http://bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#25-0000



Vuk I do not disagree that the education system is in need of reform and that the teachers union will be a big part of that. But do not frame teachers as lazy and sucking of some tit when they are not. Also do not use another government employee who gets paid basically the same as a juxtaposition. Teaching is work many people do not understand




I was not juxtaposing mail carriers to teachers, I stated that my father being a mail carrier is how he observed what he did about teachers. You then made the comparison and I defended mail carriers.

I do not frame all teachers in that way, I simply say that there are too many of them like that. One of my sisters IS a part time teacher, so I obviously do not think that all teachers are evil or lazy.
You are right that teaching is a hard job, and it is one that should be well paid when done correctly. The two biggest problems right now with the education system are teacher's unions and parent's lack of responsibility. (the last one I hear about from my sister all the time.)

Scott Walker is taking the first step in the reform of the economy and of the education system as well, and I admire him for that.

[Strike For The South]

Those stats are national figures and not applicable to Wisconsin by itself.

Teachers make about the average salary in the US which I find perfectly acceptable. Union or not. I think your postulazation of teachers living high on the hog is a flase one, you have since backtracked, which makes sense because you're wrong.

Your response to W&F is a tired talking point which is what I took issue with, it offers nothing other than a bogeyman so people can blame all their ills on teachers.

Education reform is going to take everyone working together to make comprehensive policy, slashing teachers salaries ahould be off the table as should increasing them. I don't think you can start a good discourse by haggling over the price when it comes to education.

[Vuk]

Those stats are national figures and not applicable to Wisconsin by itself.

Teachers make about the average salary in the US which I find perfectly acceptable. Union or not. I think your postulazation of teachers living high on the hog is a flase one, you have since backtracked, which makes sense because you're wrong.

Your response to W&F is a tired talking point which is what I took issue with, it offers nothing other than a bogeyman so people can blame all their ills on teachers.

Education reform is going to take everyone working together to make comprehensive policy, slashing teachers salaries ahould be off the table as should increasing them. I don't think you can start a good discourse by haggling over the price when it comes to education.

I am not haggling over the price of education so much as the logic of paying for something that you are not getting.

[HoreTore]

I am not haggling over the price of education so much as the logic of paying for something that you are not getting.

You honestly think that slashing the teachers wage budget will remove the untalented teachers and retain the capable ones....?

[a completely inoffensive name]

When we are talking about education reform for America, you have to realize that when you look at all the components on an individual level, they are all broken and yet somehow the machine keeps chugging along. Talking about the teachers union and their pay is a very narrow section of the multitude of problems that the education system in America faces. Last time I tried to come up with a comprehensive list I got to #16 and told myself, it wasn't worth it to write anymore. My high school physics teacher and I discussed the many problems for many hours over the course of the school year and we didn't even cover everything. Education reform might quite possibly be the most complex problem to unravel in America and unless you truly approach it with the attitude that the entire system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, then you get mired down with the infinite other problems bogging down your solution to one aspect of the system on the practical level.

Idk, if anyone cares but I can try to find my notebook where I tried to write down every aspect of what is wrong in the education system.

[HoreTore]

To cøaim that your education system is "broken", a "wreck" etc etc is nonsense.

If it is, then no education system in the history of mankind anywhere in the world has ever working. The fact is that education is tugging along nicely amidst all the hyperbole and daydreaming about a glorified pt that has never been.

The fact is that kids today learn much, much more than they did back in the 50's. And kids ten years from now will learn even more than kids today learn. Thus if wwe want to improve our (already good) schools, then we must look to the future, not bring back the flaws of yesterdays system.

[a completely inoffensive name]

To cøaim that your education system is "broken", a "wreck" etc etc is nonsense.

If it is, then no education system in the history of mankind anywhere in the world has ever working. The fact is that education is tugging along nicely amidst all the hyperbole and daydreaming about a glorified pt that has never been.

The fact is that kids today learn much, much more than they did back in the 50's. And kids ten years from now will learn even more than kids today learn. Thus if wwe want to improve our (already good) schools, then we must look to the future, not bring back the flaws of yesterdays system.

To be quite honest, what you just said is nonsense. I doubt you have ever sat in on the typical American classroom and I doubt you have any idea what you are talking about when it comes to the atmosphere and the culture within the American classroom. America is falling behind, that is because our system is broken. To say that kids today learn more then they did back then and same with the kid of the future is quite foolish. You obviously don't know about how American schools has been pushed since the adoption of the "No Child Left Behind", kids are increasingly being taught to do well on a test. The kids are not learning, they are practicing to be good test takers and their motivations to learn beyond the basic curriculum's (math and english and science to a lesser degree) are completely gone. Please don't run your mouth about the undermining American culture towards education when you are sitting in your arctic paradise funded by oil profits.

[HoreTore]

Which of our two countries is the leading superpower in the world, if I may ask?


But yes, I really agree with your comment regarding testing. I can't stress that enough.

[Vuk]

To cøaim that your education system is "broken", a "wreck" etc etc is nonsense.

If it is, then no education system in the history of mankind anywhere in the world has ever working. The fact is that education is tugging along nicely amidst all the hyperbole and daydreaming about a glorified pt that has never been.

The fact is that kids today learn much, much more than they did back in the 50's. And kids ten years from now will learn even more than kids today learn. Thus if wwe want to improve our (already good) schools, then we must look to the future, not bring back the flaws of yesterdays system.

They learn more than in the 50s? Really? Maybe in Norway, but take my word on it friend, not in the US.

[HoreTore]

They learn more than in the 50s? Really? Maybe in Norway, but take my word on it friend, not in the US.

How many of those attending school in the 50's speak a second language?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Which of our two countries is the leading superpower in the world, if I may ask?


But yes, I really agree with your comment regarding testing. I can't stress that enough.

Our becoming a superpower has to do with taking advantage of being one of the few countries not bombed to hell after WW2 and thus having a jump start on the manufacturing sector by decades. We have been going downhill since the 1970s when Europe and Japan had fully rebuilt their economies and started competing on a fair ground. Our education's last reform was during the space race scare which means that our school system has remained relatively the same since the late 1950s-early 1960s.

Just because we became strong and are riding o nthat strength we have built, doesn't mean that we are not falling behind and that our school system is fundamentally flawed in a way that produces less capable students then other countries. We are not producing completely ignorant students, we are simply not beating most of the industrialized or post-indust. world, which means the system is broken.

[Vuk]

Which of our two countries is the leading superpower in the world, if I may ask?


But yes, I really agree with your comment regarding testing. I can't stress that enough.

Truth is HoreTore, and I don't mean to come off as an @$$ (though I know that I will), unless you are an American, have been schooled in America, or have visited and studied the American schooling system, you really have no place arguing about it. Not to sound conceited, but it is such a complex issue, and one that most Americans do not come close to understanding, and what people hear about the US and our education system in Europe is absolute Bollox (I know, I studied in Europe and couldn't help but to laugh when my professors talked about American culture, politics, education, etc., because it was nothing but a bunch of Hollywood stereotypes, and outdated misinformation. The truth is that 99.9% of Europeans know jack-squat about the American education system, though they may think that they know a lot.

[a completely inoffensive name]

How many of those attending school in the 50's speak a second language?

This is a terrible question. American kids don't truly learn a language unless it is Spanish because that is the only one that is "practical". Again, you comment on America with a cultural bias and ignorance from being in Europe. Europeans learn multiple languages and continue to know them because you can walk 100 miles in any direction and find someone who can speak a different language then you.

Again, this even highlights why the system is broken, we are forced to "learn" a language, but when the test is over, ask someone to speak 5 sentences in a different language and you get blank looks.

EDIT: Like Vuk said, I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but just as I don't comment on how Norway's culture works, I would expect you to know that education is saturated with issues stemming from how American culture works.

[Vuk]

How many of those attending school in the 50's speak a second language?

How many modern high-school graduates can read English? Never mind figure out a complex math equation. In the US (esp in the 50s), knowing a second language has really not been that important (because it would not be as useful as other pursuits...and for many, not at all), however most students in the 50s could read and write, and could do complex math by time they graduated high school. THAT is important. Kids nowadays cannot even read. Heck, most modern kids couldn't tell you the capitol of their own state.


Our becoming a superpower has to do with taking advantage of being one of the few countries not bombed to hell after WW2 and thus having a jump start on the manufacturing sector by decades. We have been going downhill since the 1970s when Europe and Japan had fully rebuilt their economies and started competing on a fair ground. Our education's last reform was during the space race scare which means that our school system has remained relatively the same since the late 1950s-early 1960s.

Just because we became strong and are riding o nthat strength we have built, doesn't mean that we are not falling behind and that our school system is fundamentally flawed in a way that produces less capable students then other countries. We are not producing completely ignorant students, we are simply not beating most of the industrialized or post-indust. world, which means the system is broken.

Absolute BS. America was the dominant superpower before WWI, never mind during and before WWII. WWII gave us a large competitive advantage, but we were top dog before that.

[Vuk]

This is a terrible question. American kids don't truly learn a language unless it is Spanish because that is the only one that is "practical". Again, you comment on America with a cultural bias and ignorance from being in Europe. Europeans learn multiple languages and continue to know them because you can walk 100 miles in any direction and find someone who can speak a different language then you.

Again, this even highlights why the system is broken, we are forced to "learn" a language, but when the test is over, ask someone to speak 5 sentences in a different language and you get blank looks.


Exactly, to be competitive in the job market in Europe, and to communicate with you neighbors and tourists you really need to learn multiple languages, but it is mostly (and used to be completely) impractical in America, as you will most likely never need to know another language, and will never have the opportunity to speak it and fully learn it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Absolute BS. America was the dominant superpower before WWI, never mind during and before WWII. WWII gave us a large competitive advantage, but we were top dog before that.

Depends on how you are defining the terms. We were a major world power since the Spanish-American war but we had strong isolationism in our foreign policy, so our clout was probably not on the level of a true super power. After WW1 we emerged as an influencing world power that was increasingly only becoming isolationist in politicians rhetoric only and after WW2 and the development of the atomic bomb we became a superpower. I hold that a superpower is a country that has the military strength to pacify the entire world to a degree many times. No doubt we were strong for a long time before then, but we were one competitor among many.

[Vuk]

Depends on how you are defining the terms. We were a major world power since the Spanish-American war but we had strong isolationism in our foreign policy, so our clout was probably not on the level of a true super power. After WW1 we emerged as an influencing world power that was increasingly only becoming isolationist in politicians rhetoric only and after WW2 and the development of the atomic bomb we became a superpower. I hold that a superpower is a country that has the military strength to pacify the entire world to a degree many times. No doubt we were strong for a long time before then, but we were one competitor among many.

True, but since the 1850s our technology and industry far surpassed the rest of the world. I think that the world would have payed attention to anything America did. The way I see it, being a Superpower does not demand interference in the world, but simply having the power that when you do interfere, you can influence everyone else and are recognized as the most powerful.

[a completely inoffensive name]

True, but since the 1850s our technology and industry far surpassed the rest of the world. I think that the world would have payed attention to anything America did. The way I see it, being a Superpower does not demand interference in the world, but simply having the power that when you do interfere, you can influence everyone else and are recognized as the most powerful.

Our industry was on par since post Civil War, our technology wasn't really surpassing anyone until WW2. If I remember correctly, the Japanese Zero planes were roughly on par with American planes until the end of 1942 when we started building better ones and the Japanese stagnated in improving their technology. Countries always have some technology others don't and vice versa.

[HoreTore]

Truth is HoreTore, and I don't mean to come off as an @$$ (though I know that I will), unless you are an American, have been schooled in America, or have visited and studied the American schooling system, you really have no place arguing about it. Not to sound conceited, but it is such a complex issue, and one that most Americans do not come close to understanding, and what people hear about the US and our education system in Europe is absolute Bollox (I know, I studied in Europe and couldn't help but to laugh when my professors talked about American culture, politics, education, etc., because it was nothing but a bunch of Hollywood stereotypes, and outdated misinformation. The truth is that 99.9% of Europeans know jack-squat about the American education system, though they may think that they know a lot.

What theories do european educators follow? The ones developed, for the most part, in the US. We may be more alike then you realize, and certainly more alike than those professors think.

But I see no real reason to continue this debate, as I my opinions seem to be thought of as completely irrelevant, misguided and stupid, before I have even raised any.

[a completely inoffensive name]

What theories do european educators follow? The ones developed, for the most part, in the US. We may be more alike then you realize, and certainly more alike than those professors think.

But I see no real reason to continue this debate, as I my opinions seem to be thought of as completely irrelevant, misguided and stupid, before I have even raised any.

Umm, you have already stated your opinion. You said the claim that the American education system was broken is nonsense. You said kids today learned more then kids in the 1950s. We said, no because the culture towards learning in America is different. I would like to hear more of your ideas, but you shouldn't walk into a topic wrapped in American culture and say, all this is nonsense.

[Vuk]

What theories do european educators follow? The ones developed, for the most part, in the US. We may be more alike then you realize, and certainly more alike than those professors think.

But I see no real reason to continue this debate, as I my opinions seem to be thought of as completely irrelevant, misguided and stupid, before I have even raised any.

It was not your argument for reforming the education system that I said was misguided, but your assumptions about the American education system. You probably know as much about it as I do the Norwegian one.

[HoreTore]

Umm, you have already stated your opinion. You said the claim that the American education system was broken is nonsense. You said kids today learned more then kids in the 1950s. We said, no because the culture towards learning in America is different. I would like to hear more of your ideas, but you shouldn't walk into a topic wrapped in American culture and say, all this is nonsense.

I said the hyperbole term "broken" was nonsense as I understood it, and you have confirmed that, since you explained that you used it to mean "not keeping up with other countries", which I wouldn't go so far as to call "broken"(however, you will of course put a different meaning into words than I will). I understood that statement along the lines of a "broken" economy(for example), would mean an economy like the one in Zimbabwe. With that understanding, you can't call the american education system "broken". If, on the other hand, you call the current american economy "broken", then I would see your point that the american education system is also "broken".

My point was that calling the American education system as broken as the zimbabwean economy was nonsense. But that wasn't what you meant.

My second point wasn't a statement, it was a question intended to further debate and an opening to help you along the way to understanding my point/position, which instead ended up being dismissed without being explored.

[Vuk]

I said the hyperbole term "broken" was nonsense as I understood it, and you have confirmed that, since you explained that you used it to mean "not keeping up with other countries", which I wouldn't go so far as to call "broken"(however, you will of course put a different meaning into words than I will). I understood that statement along the lines of a "broken" economy(for example), would mean an economy like the one in Zimbabwe. With that understanding, you can't call the american education system "broken". If, on the other hand, you call the current american economy "broken", then I would see your point that the american education system is also "broken".

My point was that calling the American education system as broken as the zimbabwean economy was nonsense. But that wasn't what you meant.

My second point wasn't a statement, it was a question intended to further debate and an opening to help you along the way to understanding my point/position, which instead ended up being dismissed without being explored.

Unfortunately HoreTore, the US economy is in a lot better shape than the US education system. (and that is not saying a lot) When people are entering college barely being able to read, I call that a broken system.

[HoreTore]

When people are entering college barely being able to read, I call that a broken system.

And yet the arrow for literacy statistics point up?

The difference between then and now is that "the dumb people" were left on their own or took up a trade, where they are now pushed into college. And still, this is the same scenario we have over here, isn't it?


Btw, my current bed-time reading is "Democracy and Education", by Dewey... Guess his country of origin ~;)

[a completely inoffensive name]

I said the hyperbole term "broken" was nonsense as I understood it, and you have confirmed that, since you explained that you used it to mean "not keeping up with other countries", which I wouldn't go so far as to call "broken"(however, you will of course put a different meaning into words than I will). I understood that statement along the lines of a "broken" economy(for example), would mean an economy like the one in Zimbabwe. With that understanding, you can't call the american education system "broken". If, on the other hand, you call the current american economy "broken", then I would see your point that the american education system is also "broken".

My point was that calling the American education system as broken as the zimbabwean economy was nonsense. But that wasn't what you meant.

My second point wasn't a statement, it was a question intended to further debate and an opening to help you along the way to understanding my point/position, which instead ended up being dismissed without being explored.

I forgot to edit out all the parts I wasn't responding to. I am planning on furthering discussion on what you said, but I am busy at moment. I will post again about your opening later tonight.

[HoreTore]

I forgot to edit out all the parts I wasn't responding to. I am planning on furthering discussion on what you said, but I am busy at moment. I will post again about your opening later tonight.

Well bah, I'll just continue my rant ~;)

My point, was that the diversity of information students today learn has increased from the 50's. An average 14-year old today can to some degree debate the difference between buddhism and his/her own religion, while the average from the 50's wouldn't have much knowledge. The second language thingy may have been wrong, I was under the impression that US students started learning a second language as teens... Another area is computer stuff, which obviously wasn't a fator back then.

But Louis has put forth this argument before, much better than I am able to now.

Anyway, second point, the tests. This is certainly an area where I feel I have enough knowledge, since we are bringing in a system of testing here as well, and the comments I have read about the american tests(including what you have just said) largely mirror the feelings I have towards our own tests, in that teaching is focused towards doing well on these tests as opposed to learning "for the sake of learning". I haven't yet teached a class subject to such tests so I don't have personal experience as such, but I have been involved(passively) in the process "behind the scenes" for other classes.

The intent and idea behind the tests is that the teacher will focus on how to get everyone to perform better. In practice however, the school will focus only on those between two grades, whom the school feels will be able to improve. The "normal" students, the best students and the worst students subsequently gets less focus, as the focus will be on the "climbers". Students whom the school believes will get top scores on these tests will get less attention and less opportunity to progress, as they represent no source of income for the school, and the same goes for those the school thinks will not progress by a desired amount.

Finally, there is the difference between getting the correct answer without understanding the underlying process that leads to the correct answer. It is perfectly possible to memorize that 6 times 7 is 42, without getting much understanding of the concept of multiplication(which is hard to check with a standardized test). When all that matters is the end result, the focus will be on the end result, thus a school will be more likely to get their students to memorize 6 times 7 instead of getting their students to understand the process.

Interestingly, this is the exact opposite of what was stated in The process of education, the US response to Sputnik. At that conference, the top US sceintist found that(among a dozen other things) learning by memorizing stuff is a bad strategy, not only do we actually memorize much, but the very process stiffles creativity. Thus they concluded that education should be about learning the processes needed to understand why 6 times 7 is 42, not just that it is 42.

When I say that the American education system is good, it is mainly because of that conference, as their conclusion basically turned all our schools upside down. But at the same time, I am aware that we may be moving away from those conclusions, and that this process isn't driven by scientists like before, but by politicians.


And lastly, do note that I in no way wish to push my views or believe that I am stating facts or anything like that. This is my trade, and my focus is to learn and get better at it, not prance around thinking I'm Mr. know-it-all. I'm looking for opposing views that I can learn from, not confirmation that "I'm right". I apologize if I come across like that.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Memorisation is important as well. You can't learn to speak English if you refuse to memorise. You can't learn math if you refuse to memorise either.

Also, the concept of quite a few things is not relevant until you start studying a particular discipline, rather than learning its accumulated knowledge.
For instance it is not necessary to teach highschool students about lambda calculus in order to let them solve simple recurrent expressions and find closed form solutions.

[HoreTore]

Memorisation is important as well. You can't learn to speak English if you refuse to memorise.

No idea how people teach language, I don't do it. So, my comments won't touch on those subjects...


You can't learn math if you refuse to memorise either.

ONLY after the reasoning behind is fully understood. Children should never memorize the multiplication table, for example, until they have understood what multiplication is. But after you understand it, yeah, there's no harm in memorizing it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

ONLY after the reasoning behind is fully understood.

But this is kind of interesting: it is easy to see what you mean with multiplication (even though the example is actually quite flawed because once you move on from positive integers the logic breaks down, and it ought to crash hard in your first year of any technical study worth its salt); however how do you explain this with division?

Multiplication can be defined inductively (which I guess you are doing: letting the kids consider it repeated addition) even if it is really not, but division offers no such explanation that stands up to even casual scrutiny.


Children should never memorize the multiplication table, for example, until they have understood what multiplication is. But after you understand it, yeah, there's no harm in memorizing it.

Nah they should just look up the logs and do the addition. ~;)

Seriously though, from a “understanding” point of view if you understand what you are doing when fiddling with logs you inherently understand multiplication. So I do think the log method is better than just summing values from memorised tables, occasionally forgetting to “carry over” (or whatever it is called in English?) those extra values and getting the wrong answer out.

[HoreTore]

But this is kind of interesting: it is easy to see what you mean with multiplication (even though the example is actually quite flawed because once you move on from positive integers the logic breaks down, and it ought to crash hard in your first year of any technical study worth its salt); however how do you explain this with division?

Multiplication can be defined inductively (which I guess you are doing: letting the kids consider it repeated addition) even if it is really not, but division offers no such explanation that stands up to even casual scrutiny.



Nah they should just look up the logs and do the addition. ~;)

Seriously though, from a “understanding” point of view if you understand what you are doing when fiddling with logs you inherently understand multiplication. So I do think the log method is better than just summing values from memorised tables, occasionally forgetting to “carry over” (or whatever it is called in English?) those extra values and getting the wrong answer out.

Multiplication as a serial addition is one kind of multiplication, multiplication represent other things too. A student will have to understand all of them.

I don't see how division is any different though, except perhaps that it isn't common to memorize 4/2 like people memorize 2x2...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Maybe I am simply not imagining properly how you treat or explain multiplication (or how much you expect your students to work from the concept rather than they just doing what appears to be working). You are saying you expect your student to think in kinds of multiplication, however multiplication is to the Real numbers what the AND operation is to Boolean values. It gets really intriguing once you start considering matrices & graphs, set theory and relations: multiplication is how you compute the result of a query on sets involving multiple relations. Back to the “simple” examples: how do you work with 0.5 and other such factors: they are in fact a division.

As for division: typically explained as partitioning. But that explanation works for 3 people sharing 6 items, but it can be written off after the first time an adventurous soul asks how you would divide 6 items among 0 people?

[HoreTore]

Maybe I am simply not imagining properly how you treat or explain multiplication (or how much you expect your students to work from the concept rather than they just doing what appears to be working). You are saying you expect your student to think in kinds of multiplication, however multiplication is to the Real numbers what the AND operation is to Boolean values. It gets really intriguing once you start considering matrices & graphs, set theory and relations: multiplication is how you compute the result of a query on sets involving multiple relations. Back to the “simple” examples: how do you work with 0.5 and other such factors: they are in fact a division.

As for division: typically explained as partitioning. But that explanation works for 3 people sharing 6 items, but it can be written off after the first time an adventurous soul asks how you would divide 6 items among 0 people?

Division by zero is impossible.

It might seem like a difficult concept for a 12-year old to undestand, but it's actually surprisingly easy to explain. As soon as students learn about multiplication and division, they learn about the relationship between the two, just like they did with maths. A student learns that if 6+3=9, you can turn it around and get a subtraction that reads 9-3=6. The same goes for multiplication and division, the division 4/2 is explained by showing that 2x2=4.

Thus, explaining why division by zero cannot be done is as simple as showing them the multiplication 2x0=0, and ask them to turn it into a division. Or, if one insists that 2/0 must be 0, ask them to swap their division around and see if the multiplication works.

As for multiplication with 0.5, that is indeed a division, and as such it is explained by swapping the 0.5 for the much more accurate number 1/2.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Division by zero is impossible. Trick question. ~;)


It might seem like a difficult concept for a 12-year old to undestand, but it's actually surprisingly easy to explain. As soon as students learn about multiplication and division, they learn about the relationship between the two, just like they did with maths. A student learns that if 6+3=9, you can turn it around and get a subtraction that reads 9-3=6. The same goes for multiplication and division, the division 4/2 is explained by showing that 2x2=4.

But then you are not explaining multiplication at all. You explain how you compute multiplication, but that is not at all the same thing, and in fact is little more than pure memorisation of a symbol and a set of actions to arrive at output.


Thus, explaining why division by zero cannot be done is as simple as showing them the multiplication 2x0=0, and ask them to turn it into a division. Or, if one insists that 2/0 must be 0, ask them to swap their division around and see if the multiplication works. But I can do that using such logic and the given example: 0/0 = 2. Perfectly valid according to the reverse logic since 0 * 2 = 0.


As for multiplication with 0.5, that is indeed a division, and as such it is explained by swapping the 0.5 for the much more accurate number 1/2.

Yes but here is the interesting thing: multiplication is scaling in a lot of applications. Remember how you said kind of?

The real problem is that if you want to teach concepts of operations like addition and multiplication definitions based on “reverse identities” do not hold in the general case. For instance with set addition and substraction.

{ 5, 6, 7, 8 } (+) {1 , 2, 3, 4, 5 } = { 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8}.
Now let's try our reversal technique:
{1, 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 } - {5,6,7,8} = { 1,2,3,4 }.
:oops:

[HoreTore]

But then you are not explaining multiplication at all. You explain how you compute multiplication, but that is not at all the same thing, and in fact is little more than pure memorisation of a symbol and a set of actions to arrive at output.

But I can do that using such logic and the given example: 0/0 = 2. Perfectly valid according to the reverse logic since 0 * 2 = 0.[/QUOTE]

First of all, the product of any factor multiplied by zero is zero by definition, which happens to be one of the earliest concepts a child will learn when it comes to multiplication. So, it is highly unlikely that someone would argue that way.

Secondly, I'm using numbers here. I would of course supplement with reality when explaining it to a student. Ie. "if you have zero baskets with zero apples in them, how many apples do you have?" Anyhoo, a 12-year old thinks that the higher the number the higher the difficulty, so a strong kid would focus on 09324850932809423x94386724395 rather than focusing on the 0 or other low numbers...

Another way would be to say "can I have two slices of pizza, if I don't have a pizza?" (2/0)


Yes but here is the interesting thing: multiplication is scaling in a lot of applications. Remember how you said kind of?

The real problem is that if you want to teach concepts of operations like addition and multiplication definitions based on “reverse identities” do not hold in the general case. For instance with set addition and substraction.

{ 5, 6, 7, 8 } (+) {1 , 2, 3, 4, 5 } = { 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8}.
Now let's try our reversal technique:
{1, 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 } - {5,6,7,8} = { 1,2,3,4 }.
:oops:

No idea what you're talking about here....

And I have to add that my knowledge of computer 1337 skillz are limited at best.

[Tellos Athenaios]

No idea what you're talking about here....


Well I was getting a bit far out in the whole concept thing. Summary: that “addition” and “substraction” operations are well defined outside the domain of real numbers, and sometimes you can't say x + y = z, therefore z - y = x. I chose an example with sets to elaborate both at the same time.

[HoreTore]

Well I was getting a bit far out in the whole concept thing. Summary: that “addition” and “substraction” operations are well defined outside the domain of real numbers, and sometimes you can't say x + y = z, therefore z - y = x. I chose an example with sets to elaborate both at the same time.

Well I only deal with addition and subtraction, not "addition" and "subtraction" ~;)

[a completely inoffensive name]

I just want to say that this dialogue between HoreTore and Tellos is exactly what the American education system needs. Discussion on what exactly the students should be learning and how to go about it. This kind of discussion never occurs in the greater discourse in America. Go on HoreTore and Tellos, this is great to follow.

[HoreTore]

I just want to say that this dialogue between HoreTore and Tellos is exactly what the American education system needs. Discussion on what exactly the students should be learning and how to go about it. This kind of discussion never occurs in the greater discourse in America. Go on HoreTore and Tellos, this is great to follow.

Leaves me wondering, what is being discussed in the "greater discourse in America"?

[Beskar]

Leaves me wondering, what is being discussed in the "greater discourse in America"?

God.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Leaves me wondering, what is being discussed in the "greater discourse in America"?

90% complaining about teacher pay, 10% reading stories like the following and blaming teacher pay for it:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:i_30gFENOK8J:speakloudly.org/2010/10/censorship-at-its-finest-remembering-risha-mullins-story/+%22Censorship+at+its+Finest:+Remembering.%22&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=ubuntu

http://www.accountabletalk.com/2010/10/uninteded-consequences.html

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2008/10/24/emory_evolution_teach.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/18/nyregion/18kearny.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5090&en=87af8b74af1e13cc&ex=1324098000&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/education/01education.html/?_r=1&em&ex=1186200000&en=b6bf8d9b3e14add4&ei=5087%0A

Oh, HoreTore here is a post on a website I go on, where a guy said he is a high school teacher in America and got suggestions on how to make the classes "better" read his list he was given to make the class more "effective":
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/dk8yp/iama_hs_teacher_this_is_a_list_of_suggestions_we/

[a completely inoffensive name]

God.

God in the science classrooms (although this is mostly just for extreme conservative or southern towns).
Censorship in english classrooms across the entire country.

[HoreTore]

How can people expect to get better qualified personnel if they're not prepared to pay for it? How can people believe that lowering pay will keep the best and make the worst leave, instead of the other way around?

But it's not all bad over there ACIN, here's a really good article I used in the last paper I wrote:

http://teachers.net/gazette/wordpress/darren-barkett/connecting-with-your-students-from-day-one/

Btw, this "overpaid slob" is sitting alone on a saturday night working on school papers... With no extra pay of any kind, of course.

[a completely inoffensive name]

How can people expect to get better qualified personnel if they're not prepared to pay for it? How can people believe that lowering pay will keep the best and make the worst leave, instead of the other way around?

But it's not all bad over there ACIN, here's a really good article I used in the last paper I wrote:

http://teachers.net/gazette/wordpress/darren-barkett/connecting-with-your-students-from-day-one/

Btw, this "overpaid slob" is sitting alone on a saturday night working on school papers... With no extra pay of any kind, of course.

The goal for conservatives is in deconstructing the state's hold over their children, including the "brainwashing" education system. The goal of lowering wages is to make sure the teachers are terrible so the kids don't learn. That way the parent's beliefs are held and not challenged. Of course it is covered up under the guise of fiscal responsibility.

And yes, it really isn't all that bad. Like I said, we are not completely ass-backwards. But we are rapidly falling behind. Even in your own article you have shown the last paragraph says this:

Connecting with every student every day is impossible. Connecting with some students every day is not. Using this simply exercise, whether it’s the beginning of the year or halfway through your year, will help give you the tools you need to make those meaningful connections with your students. Those connections will help you differentiate your instruction, which in turn increases your effectiveness as a teacher.

This exercise and tool for helping students continues to get less effective as classroom sizes increase dramatically. Overcrowding is one of many problems facing the education system and this tool essentially becomes pointless when you start to have 40-45 kids a class with 5 classes a day. My classes were all in the ~35 student range, with increases to 47 being discussed.

[HoreTore]

And yes, it really isn't all that bad. Like I said, we are not completely ass-backwards.

My knowledge of the american system comes mainly from those relevant to my studies, ie. people like Bruner and this guy. And I use them as my main source, really, I use Norwegians and such mainly as back-up material. Because it's good stuff.

I won't have to deal with backwards religoous stuff like you describe, however, and no censorship either, my hands are pretty much free when it comes to controversial issues.

Overcrowding was an issue in the early 2000's here too, but it has mostly been fixed by now, as the effectivization policies that was started have been scrapped and the usual class size is 20, though teachers typically teach in two classes at the same grade, thus giving each teacher around 40 students in 2-3 subjects.

I blame this on corporate governerning entering the public sector. Things have to be "accountable" and we should provide some numbers, some statistics to prove that we are going forward. But what the politicians fail to see is that you can't introduce incentives, bonuses and such in education. It just doesn't work, not everything in life can be turned into a statistic.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I blame this on corporate governerning entering the public sector. Things have to be "accountable" and we should provide some numbers, some statistics to prove that we are going forward. But what the politicians fail to see is that you can't introduce incentives, bonuses and such in education. It just doesn't work, not everything in life can be turned into a statistic.

Quoted for truth.

But yeah, the religious factor and the self censorship are two of many problems. To be honest, the parents are a major reason why the system isn't as great as it could be. Stupid parents try to perpetuate stupid students.

If you want to know what books are trying to be withheld from students by stupid parents, here is the wikipedia article with data from 1990-1999, so a bit out of date, but not really since I doubt these long controversial books are suddenly ok.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_commonly_challenged_books_in_the_U.S.


EDIT: Actually, here is the ala.org website that tabulates the most challenged books list. Here is the direct link and on the left you can click on each individual year and by the decade.
http://www.ala.org/ala/issuesadvocacy/banned/frequentlychallenged/index.cfm

[HoreTore]

My head is hurting from all the stupidity.

How many hundreds of thousands of girls started to enjoy reading after they read books like catcher in the rye, twilight, etc etc? And they want to take that away from them? Nonsense.

Also, the nature pf the school should be to challenge peoples perceptions, not to conform them. If you believe x is true, the school should question you with y. The school is supposed to challenge assumptions, as that requires people to reflect on their beliefs instead of blindly following something.

[a completely inoffensive name]

My head is hurting from all the stupidity.

Yeah, welcome to the American education debate.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Also, the nature pf the school should be to challenge peoples perceptions, not to conform them. If you believe x is true, the school should question you with y. The school is supposed to challenge assumptions, as that requires people to reflect on their beliefs instead of blindly following something.

lol, the nature of school to many Americans is to memorize useless facts that you don't need in the real world pushed by "liberals" so you can get a job. CAN YOU TELL ME WHEN I AM EVER GOING TO USE CALCULUS IN REAL LIFE? I'M NOT GOING TO BE AN ENGINEER! NO? THEN WHY AM I LEARNING THIS HORETORE!?!?!?!

[HoreTore]

Connecting maths education with the real world is a very important aspect. A lot of people feel that maths is too abstract, that it doesn't represent anything in the real world. Of course, it does do that, and focus should be on making sure our students make that connection.

[gaelic cowboy]

Calculus and all the other abstract maths subjects are an excellent way of teaching someone how to work through a problem. We rarely have all the relevant information we need to make a decision so we must work through the problem logically.

There is your best reason for calculus in school.

[HoreTore]

Calculus and all the other abstract maths subjects are an excellent way of teaching someone how to work through a problem. We rarely have all the relevant information we need to make a decision so we must work through the problem logically.

There is your best reason for calculus in school.

13-year old Mike is far from satisfied with that answer I'm afraid ~;)

[gaelic cowboy]

13-year old Mike is far from satisfied with that answer I'm afraid ~;)

True but if he went on to college he will end up agreeing with me eventually, we should be attempting to show how important problem solving is in later life and calculus is a good start.

[HoreTore]

True but if he went on to college he will end up agreeing with me eventually, we should be attempting to show how important problem solving is in later life and calculus is a good start.

No, relating it to their life as it is right now is much better, you can't expect a 13-year old to think about his future that much. Why talk about how it is important later, when you can relate it to the real world they live in right now?

[Strike For The South]

I was educated in the public schoo system and I came out ok, of course one of my teachers almost ran me over in her new BMW once

[HoreTore]

I was educated in the public schoo system and I came out ok, of course one of my teachers almost ran me over in her new BMW once

I'm hoping to sell my car by friday.....won't get a new one either....

But shouldn't you make enough money with a four year education, performing a vital service to society, to drive a middle-price car like a bmw?

[a completely inoffensive name]

No, relating it to their life as it is right now is much better, you can't expect a 13-year old to think about his future that much. Why talk about how it is important later, when you can relate it to the real world they live in right now?

Technically, word problems are supposed to be relating the math to the real world and most of my fellow students will agree that word problems are the most challenging/frustrating.

[HoreTore]

Technically, word problems are supposed to be relating the math to the real world and most of my fellow students will agree that word problems are the most challenging/frustrating.

Not just technically - in every way. 2 + 2 means two apples and two apples, making that clear is vital.

[Strike For The South]

I'm hoping to sell my car by friday.....won't get a new one either....

But shouldn't you make enough money with a four year education, performing a vital service to society, to drive a middle-price car like a bmw?

It was a joke,,,,,come down marxist

[a completely inoffensive name]

Not just technically - in every way. 2 + 2 means two apples and two apples, making that clear is vital.

Well, when the situation they give you isn't realistic, then it loses it's purpose. Then again, I have only come across few books with questions that were not realistic.

EDIT: Again, my point though is that younger students are less receptive to the word problems then any other in my experience.

[Tuuvi]

How many of those attending school in the 50's speak a second language?
When I was in High School my Spanish II teacher sat on his computer all class period long while the rest of the class messed around and talked. Some days he didn't even bother to hand out assignments, or the assignment was watching The Goonies and taking notes on the movie. I was pissed, because I really wanted to learn Spanish. Most of the other kids loved it.


Technically, word problems are supposed to be relating the math to the real world and most of my fellow students will agree that word problems are the most challenging/frustrating.

I remember a lot of students complaining about word problems in my math classes too. In my opinion, this is part of the problem, US students aren't challenged enough, so they get so used to things being easy that when something is challenging they back down and don't want to use their brains to figure it out.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I remember a lot of students complaining about word problems in my math classes too. In my opinion, this is part of the problem, US students aren't challenged enough, so they get so used to things being easy that when something is challenging they back down and don't want to use their brains to figure it out.

But parents will get angry when their kids are not getting B's and A's.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Technically, word problems are supposed to be relating the math to the real world and most of my fellow students will agree that word problems are the most challenging/frustrating.

What are these mythical challenging word problems you speak of? As opposed to what other problems?

[a completely inoffensive name]

What are these mythical challenging word problems you speak of? As opposed to what other problems?

Students don't like not having the data and the function right in front of them. At least none of my fellow high school students liked that. When you tell them this is a compound interest function, they want every question to start with them giving you the function right off the bat and then asking you to plug the number they give you into the one variable the function has. Heaven forbid you give them a word problem that says, "You have 1000 dollars in the bank, what is the difference in the account between the interest gained at 9% after 5 years and 4.5% after 10 years?" HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO WORK WITH THIS?!!?

[Tellos Athenaios]

So to sum up once in a single question the problem difficulty exceeds that of primary school, you've lost them? (Once you've broken down the problem to its component problems you get to something a primary school kid can work out.)

[a completely inoffensive name]

So to sum up once in a single question the problem difficulty exceeds that of primary school, you've lost them? (Once you've broken down the problem to its component problems you get to something a primary school kid can work out.)

Only the stupid and the lazy. But from my experiences in high school, that seems to be a good portion of the students. Like I said before, the school system isn't completely bad. But word problems like the one I just made up are really complained about as if they are the most terrible thing ever. Much less so in the final years of high school though.

[HoreTore]

It was a joke,,,,,come down marxist

Of course I knew that Strike, but it raised an interesting question ~;)


EDIT: Again, my point though is that younger students are less receptive to the word problems then any other in my experience.

....And that is the reason why the focus should be on word problems ~;)

[a completely inoffensive name]

....And that is the reason why the focus should be on word problems ~;)

I agree completely. But parents wouldn't go for it.

[HoreTore]

I agree completely. But parents wouldn't go for it.

Parents are ignorant, they have no business meddling with this. ~;)

[a completely inoffensive name]

Parents are ignorant, they have no business meddling with this. ~;)

Exactly! Now if only we could reform the American school system so it could be like that. Sigh...if only. :D